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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: road2damascus on July 08, 2011, 09:15:35 PM
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One Rick Rimmer supercharger kit, 2 sets of fuel injectors (24lb and 30lb), adjustable fuel pressure regulator, Clifford manifold, oil pressure-boost-AFR gauges, liquid to air intercooler, radiator/pump/fan/reservoir, Split Second ftc 1, Split Second fuel enricher, power steering relocating bracket, and a couple other odds and ends. I will post it in the members projects when I start the install.
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more pictures
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That looks like an older one since it's still using the Eaton. The intake was a Clifford IIRC. Looks like a fun project. Getting it mounted up is the easy part. Tuning it is where most of those kits had problems.
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there's only one problem. the intercooler - it's meant for a remote mount supercharger, yours is already mounted on the intake manifold so you would need a "sandwich" type intercooler core that would go between the s/c and the manifold.
other than that looks very nice.
There's no point in installing the i/c the way it is, you're not going to the drag strip which is where you would add ice and suck in the cold air, without ice it won't do anything
good luck with it, looking forward to your writeup.
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Yes, I kept thinking about it and it didn't make much sense to me. I kept asking myself, can a radiator (that is cooled by the same air temperature as the air going into the engine) cool the intercooler and make the air cooler than if it was just sucked in without the intercooler? Chasing my tail...beating a dead horse? :deadhorse: Anyone want it for a turbo application?
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Yes, I kept thinking about it and it didn't make much sense to me. I kept asking myself, can a radiator (that is cooled by the same air temperature as the air going into the engine) cool the intercooler and make the air cooler than if it was just sucked in without the intercooler? Chasing my tail...beating a dead horse? :deadhorse: Anyone want it for a turbo application?
I'd say keep it and look for a sandwich one in time. Before you get everything installed make a copy of the mounting profile between the s/c and intake, there are companies out there that make them custom for your application. everything else can be reused.
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If that's a Clifford intake then it's 4 barrel carb mount, IIRC.
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i remembered, what you want is a laminova core - best efficiency
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Here's a pic of the intake with out the supercharger on it.
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The pulley is rated up to 5psi and the former owner said it stayed around 4.5psi most of the time. I don't think I am going to run an intercooler.
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The pulley is rated up to 5psi and the former owner said it stayed around 4.5psi most of the time. I don't think I am going to run an intercooler.
that would most likely be just fine, make sure you run cooler plugs (by a factor of 2),
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Here's a pic of the intake with out the supercharger on it.
Yeah, that's the Clifford intake.
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i like that is all on 1 side so no piping required.
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can't wait to see in action and report on power increase..
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I forgot to mention that it is 4.5psi by 1700-1800 RPM.
Sharp can you please help me with the fuel injector/fuel pressure calculations with 5psi being the max boost?
new Injector = old Injector X (14.7+boost) / 14.7
23.318 = 17.4 x (14.7 + 5 ) / 14.7
Does this mean I could use the 24lb injectors as long as I have the Enricher?
The former owner used the 24's as well. Please correct me.
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I forgot to mention that it is 4.5psi by 1700-1800 RPM.
Sharp can you please help me with the fuel injector/fuel pressure calculations with 5psi being the max boost?
new Injector = old Injector X (14.7+boost) / 14.7
23.318 = 17.4 x (14.7 + 5 ) / 14.7
Does this mean I could use the 24lb injectors as long as I have the Enricher?
The former owner used the 24's as well. Please correct me.
your calculation is correct but you might want to add 10% more since you're in boost, that makes it about 25.5 to 26
What pressure are those injectors rated at? Based on that you can use the 24 or 30 and increase/decrease the pressure accordingly.
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The injectors are: 24lb @ 39.9 , and 30lb @ 39.9
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The injectors are: 24lb (at) 39.9 , and 30lb (at) 39.9
45.5psi with the 24# ones would result in 25.6lb/hr
the 30# ones would require very low pressure (like 30psi which would mean about 22 at idle) - i would give these a shot at 35psi if you need more fuel (would be at 28lb/hr).
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forgot to ask you - does that FPR having a vacuum/boost port on it? if it doesn't you'll need one that has that feature (or to modify this one), otherwise your calculations would be off by 5 psi for fuel pressure when at full boost (pressure differential at the exit point of fuel which is the injector nozzle). Or you could try the 30# ones set at 35psi (so it will be 30 psi at full boost differential pressure) - you can try and see if that works. Another alternative would be a Mallory FPR which is about $100 and has the vac/boost port, but that can be down the line once you do some road tests.
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It does have a vacuum port. Here's another question I haven't even thought about yet or researched.........This supercharger was set up on a TJ. TJ's don't have a return line. How is this going to be a factor in the set up?
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It does have a vacuum port. Here's another question I haven't even thought about yet or researched.........This supercharger was set up on a TJ. TJ's don't have a return line. How is this going to be a factor in the set up?
that's good (the vac/pressure port)
the return would be that bottom fitting (the other side of your adjusting screw) so you're fine. The feed is the one on the same level with the hoses going to the injector rail.
EDIT: I looked at it again and i think it's the other way around, take the hoses off (or at least one of the ones going to the injector rail) and blow in the non attached fittings, the feed would be the one that you can blow thru freely, the return would be the one that feels plugged.
EDIT2: is there a brand name on that FPR?
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There is not a name on the FPR. Nothing is inscribed on it, not even so much as a number.
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There is not a name on the FPR. Nothing is inscribed on it, not even so much as a number.
looks like one of the chinese knock-offs but can't be sure of course. Anyway, start with the one you have and down the road my suggestion is to get a Mallory, best bang for the buck and probably safer when out on the trail (so you don't get stranded out there).
Also, i don't see a reason for which you'd have both ends of the rail connected with hoses, you can plug one of the ends, use the newly freed port on the FPR to connect to the fuel feed from the pump and the one with the 90 deg brass elbow which looks like 1/8'' NPT thread to install a mini fuel pressure gauge (that's what is meant for) - unless of course that is the return (but would be the other way around from what i've seen so far). Usually the 1/8'' NPT is meant for the fuel gauge as the inside diameter is smaller than the other 2 ports which would be the feed and the line going to the rail (they are larger to accomodate fuel flow, there is no flow at the gauge, just pressure reading).
I couldn't see in the pics if you have a bypass valve, you should but just in case you don't you will need one - Magna Superchargers has Eaton compatible ones for about $50 so in case you need one give them a call.
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Bypass valve
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nice,
one thing to consider from that picture - Air Intake Temp sensor:
the good: it is relocated before the S/Charger (on the inlet side)
the bad: it is using a long adapter, check and make sure the end of it with the probe protrudes out in the air flow path and is not tucked inside the adapter, if that is the case you'll need a shorter one.
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I have not had a chance to check it. Had to go to the doctor and have too much work to deal with. Too much work is always a good thing. Possibly having Lyme Disease is the bad!
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well its mine now. does anyone have any experience with the split second modules? sharpxman are you listening? i am bolted up and ready to map out fuel and timing. would appriciate any advise from someone who has been through it before. and i saw your conversation about the fuel pressure regulator. the former owner had both big ports connected to the fuel rail and the supply comming up through the return port. there is a schrader valve on the top port
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well its mine now. does anyone have any experience with the split second modules? sharpxman are you listening? i am bolted up and ready to map out fuel and timing. would appriciate any advise from someone who has been through it before. and i saw your conversation about the fuel pressure regulator. the former owner had both big ports connected to the fuel rail and the supply comming up through the return port. there is a schrader valve on the top port
you monitor/log the AFR and adjust the cells in the Split Second tuning software to compensate/adjust to desired AFR, that's about it.
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new here thanks for responding. i assume by your title you have a s/c or turbo on your jeep and by reading old posts you seem very knowlegable. if you could help me feel a little more comfortable with this system. do i need a wide band 02 or can i map out fuel and timing with the oem o2? and do the split second modules work well. i have read so much about people spending many many hours and never getting it right. again thank you for any info you can share. you were recomended to me as someone who is really well informed on supercharging.
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new here thanks for responding. i assume by your title you have a s/c or turbo on your jeep and by reading old posts you seem very knowlegable. if you could help me feel a little more comfortable with this system. do i need a wide band 02 or can i map out fuel and timing with the oem o2? and do the split second modules work well. i have read so much about people spending many many hours and never getting it right. again thank you for any info you can share. you were recomended to me as someone who is really well informed on supercharging.
you would need at least a wideband, however it is hard and next to impossible to drive and figure out (and remember) what MAP reading (vacuum/boost) and RPM you need to compensate at and by how much - you need a way to log AFR at rpm and map reading, then analyze the log and make adjustments - there are a few companies out there that make AFR loggers, you would want a solution that can log all 3 parameters (AFR, MAP and rpm) as that's how the Split Second works (cells are based on MAP reading at a specific rpm and the cell value is by how much you want to compensate the MAP reading, over or under the actual reading).
you'd also need to get proper injectors based on how much boost (max) you put out
it is also preferred to get an enricher to compenate the stock o2 sensor reading when your PCM operates in closed loop and you have boost (i can't remember if the unit you bought has the enricher built in or not).
there's a good tuning paper on SSecond website, give that a read - it is explained in more detail than what i just posted.
the split second unit is a realtime microcontroller, it reads analog inputs and a frequency (rpm) in realtime, does some calculations and outputs an adjusted voltage that replaces the stock MAP sensor reading - it is reliable based on it's basic design and operation if nothing else.
EDIT: if you have the FTC unit that one does ignition timing retard as well, same idea with the MAP sensor but in this case it inserts a delay on the crank signal based on rpm and map, so if you experience pinging (knock) you can retart timing based on boost and rpm to avoid it.
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i re-read the initial post on this thread and checked the pics, looks like you have the enricher already and you have the FTC1
if your max boost is 4.5psi as reported by road2damascus most likely you won't need to retard timing, just use a colder spark plug (by 2) and high octane gas. Don't bother installing the intercooler as the way it is being before the supercharger it will not cool the charge and since it is cooling with the same air as the one you are pulling in it will just do nothing (probably hurt the flow).
the FTC1 comes with a pre-loaded values table, if you are unsure what's loaded in it send an email to split second and ask for a generic one for 4.5psi and 5250 max rpm - that should get you started and you can fine-tune from there.
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thnx so much. what to you think about that regulator. i saw your post about it but what i dont understand is both big ports ( the ones you can blow through) were hooked to the fuel rail. the one that feels restricted is where his fuel supply came from, how could this possibly work? besides my tj has a returnless fuel system so if i were to cap the end of the fuel rail and use the open big port on the side of regulator for fuel inlet what do i do with the return port. i assume it needs it to dump off excess fuel pressure. i am ready to wire in the split second modules but dont want to run it till i am sure about the regulator. i just took for granted since unit was all assembled that it was correctly assembled. then after pulling the hoses off the regulator and finding clumps of orange silicone inside regulator i started to question things.
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i thought you have a YJ - unfortunately the TJ has a returnless fuel rail, just work with that, start with sizing the fuel injectors properly and work your way from there with the Split second, there's no easy way to modify your system for a return type. only problem is that you won't have boost reference for the fuel rail, so whatever the boost pressure you'll be running you'll have to substract it when calculating injector flow
for example if you'll have 4.5psi, you should use 49-5= 44psi fuel pressure (49 is TJ stock pressure).
stock injector is 23.2lb/hr, the ones you have if i remember correctly are 24 and 30 lb/hr at 39.9 psi
you'll need around 34lb/hr injector flow for 5psi boost (10% richer AFR at 5psi boost compared to stock normally aspirated AFR at WOT)
since you cannot change the fuel pressure use the 30lb/hr ones which would result in 31.5lb/hr at 44.5 psi, should be close enough but not perfect (you'd be straight up around the same AFR as with normally aspirated but you can start with this and upgrade later, it's fairly close)
ditch the regulator that came with the kit and hook up the rail to the fuel line on your TJ (use 1 end and plug the other).
use the FTC and the enricher to adjust your AFR
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couple of corrections to my previous post
for example if you'll have 4.5psi, you should use 49-5= 44psi fuel pressure (49 is TJ stock pressure).
should read: for example if you'll have 5psi, you should use 49-5= 44psi fuel pressure (49 is TJ stock pressure).
since you cannot change the fuel pressure use the 30lb/hr ones which would result in 31.5lb/hr at 44.5 psi
should read: since you cannot change the fuel pressure use the 30lb/hr ones which would result in 31.5lb/hr at 45 psi
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nevermind i answered my own question only thing is the return from the regulator. now along side the fuel supply line down the drivers side frame is an additionol smaller line that goes to the tank also. even though i have a returnless fuel rail this looks like a line assembly built for return. anyone know if this is a return line or just some type of vent line? i temporary plugged regulator return to it and it seemed to work ok. blower on and running.
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nevermind i answered my own question only thing is the return from the regulator. now along side the fuel supply line down the drivers side frame is an additionol smaller line that goes to the tank also. even though i have a returnless fuel rail this looks like a line assembly built for return. anyone know if this is a return line or just some type of vent line? i temporary plugged regulator return to it and it seemed to work ok. blower on and running.
that smaller line is for the evap canister
you can leave the regulator there but it won't do anything other than connecting the hoses
do you have a wideband yet? if not i'd be cautious taking any trips until you do. Another way to try and tune it is to find a steep long uphill, keep it at a constant rpm and boost and monitor the afr, adjust the split second on several rpms and boost levels and try to blend around those cells.
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THANK YOU SO MUCH. I FIGURED THE REGULATOR WAS NOT GONNA WORK, DID NOT GET WIDEBAND YET AND JEEP WONT BE GOING ON ANY LONG TRIPS TILL I GET ONE AND AM SATISFIED WITH THE ADJUSTMENTS. HAPPY TO HEAR INJECTORS ARE CLOSE ENOUGH TO GET STARTED, I DO HAVE A SPEED SHOP WITH A DYNO THAT IF ALL ELSE FAILS COULD USE TO MAP THE FTC-1 ABOUT 20 MILES AWAY.GONNA BE PRICEY THOUGH. CHEAPER THAN AN ENGINE THOUGH I GUESS,
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i'm not sure if they will do a better job than you with a wideband/map/rpm logging (map = manifold air pressure, not the fuel map in the FTC) and probably cheaper in the end. there are hundreds of cells in that table, i don't think they'll go thru all of them (just time consuming, on the other hand you can start the logger, drive around and at the end of the session will generate a table with MAP and rpm on axis and AFR in the cells).
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does the afr logger work like a data recorder or copilot in the chrysler scan tool? let me run something by you. the previous owner had this installed in a tj and i saw his posts on another forum when he could not get his jeep to run right. after several posts looking for advise the last post was for sale 1 rimmer supercharger... one thing he said was at 2000 rpm it had a bad hesitaion and you could smell raw fuel. i dont think he ever figured it out. now i have it installed on my tj and with just the s/c installed i ran the vehicle let it learn idle (it seemed like it had a tremendous vac leak, high idle, would not take any fuel without bogging. after short term adaptive started kicking in i took it out in the road for a very short road test (1 mile) at 2000 rpm it hestitates and raw fuel smell. enough that i thought a fuel line came off. second my tj used to feel very smooth but now it feels like when you see an in car camera in a funny car. i assume alot of this is due to wrong afr but is the vibration in the engine (not driveline) seem normal to you at this point in the process? when this is properly tuned will the engine run smoothly under boost? what concerns me is rimmer and avenger used to put these out with nothing but the adaptive capabilities of the pcm. i hope this thing doesnt feel like this when i am done with it. hoping for some encoraging words here sharp.
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the adaptive learning is for closed loop, which you don't want when you're in boost. You need to use the enricher to give it more fuel once the boost starts to kick in (even a tad earlier) - what you need to understand is that with the FTC1 your pcm reads the manifold absolute pressure at 0 boost something like you were 1/2 way on the throttle before, that means the pcm is in closed loop when actually should be in open loop. The other thing is that you are probably too rich ( when you smell fuel ) when not in boost and possibly lean when in full boost, so without proper tuning it just won't work (regardless of the adaptive learning, there is a limit at which it won't adjust being out of it's limits). with a TJ you can get some OBDII logger combined with a wideband, i don't know how accurate it would be as i have an OBDI and never used it that way, but whatever you decide to go with i'm sure their instructions are clear as to what the capabilities are. Think of all this as individual components that need to be adjusted to work as a kit, the kit itself is not plug and play and since your engine was running fine before it should be running fine once you tune it properly. If you're trying to use this without the FTC1 don't even bother, it won't work (there is no boost reference with your stock MAP sensor, it stops at 0 vac/boost reference so anything past that you're "flying blind").
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so it seems like things are where they should be at this point in the process, runs, but not right. have no intention of running it this way just wanted to see if the s/c made boost so i could go further. if this sounds like the norm for this point im good with that. wiring in ftc-1 and enricher this week then start the mapping process. i think i have access to chryslers drbIII to watch all sensors so i will let you go on and help some other people for a while. again thank you for your support. do you know if there are many other people on this forum running superchargers?
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i ran one on mine, now it's off and will go back in hopefully this summer
otherwise there are about 3 turbos, St.Chevrolet is the one running the longest as far as i know.