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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Jeffy on August 04, 2011, 07:17:08 PM
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So what do you run? Or do you even have one?
I need to replace mine so I'm thinking two small AFFF aerosol type near the doors and a 10lbs BC in the back. The new Halon's are nice but a bit expensive for a usable size for a car fire. Haven't seen many AFFF in a 5-10lbs size.
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what about co2 as opposed to halon?
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what about co2 as opposed to halon?
Co2 would work but it's still costs 150% more for half the size then a dry-chem.
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Some chrome deal on a bracket on the roll bar that I obscure with the floor carpet. Think I did my homework buying it though. Almost 2 years old so probably should check it.
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Co2 would work but it's still costs 150% more for half the size then a dry-chem.
I meant cost compared to the halon one? and what's the advantage of the halon filled?
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I got a non-rechargeable dry-chem from Home Depot about 4 years ago. It has a gauge on it and seems to be holding pressure just fine. Since then I have read that the dry chem will leave a nasty coat the engine and electronics that can cause more damage than the fire itself, assuming you put it out quickly. So what is the best type of extinguisher to use?
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gas filled ones are best since there's no residue left, downside is that you need bigger size since there's nothing left on the area, so you need a constant flow to keep the fire from reigniting. i believe CO2 is the most common one.
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Thanks. A quick look on the internet revealed that CO2, Holotron I, Halon 1211, and FE-36 is the stuff to use for computers. It does seem that CO2 is the cheapest, and like you mentioned, they are big.
I currently have this one: http://www.amazon.com/Kidde-FA110-Purpose-Extinguisher-1A10BC/dp/B00002ND64
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I would say each has it's own advantages and disadvantages.
On an inclosed fire you wouldn't want to be using a Haltron or Co2 as they are not breathable.
Looking at cost, size and weight, I think a two-stage approach is probably best. Small extinguishers for the initial fire. If it gets large enough to use a big extinguisher, you probably aren't going to care about the mess it makes. Also, as long as you clean up dry-chem it's not a problem anyway.
At concentrations greater than 17 percent, such as those encountered during carbon dioxide fire suppressant use, loss of controlled and purposeful activity, unconsciousness, convulsions, coma, and death occur within 1 minute of initial inhalation of carbon dioxide (OSHA 1989, CCOHS 1990, Dalgaard et al. 1972, CATAMA 1953, Lambertsen 1971). At exposures between 10 and 15 percent, carbon dioxide has been shown to cause unconsciousness, drowsiness, severe muscle twitching, and dizziness within several minutes (Wong 1992, CATAMA 1953, Sechzer et al. 1960). Within a few minutes to an hour after exposure to concentrations between 7 and 10 percent, unconsciousness, dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, mental depression, shortness of breath, and sweating have been observed (Schulte 1964, CATAMA 1953, Dripps and Comroe 1947, Wong 1992, Sechzer et al. 1960, OSHA 1989). Exposures to 4 to 7 percent carbon dioxide can result in headache; hearing and visual disturbances; increased blood pressure; dyspnea, or difficulty breathing; mental depression; and tremors (Schulte 1964; Consolazio et al. 1947; White et al. 1952; Wong 1992; Kety and Schmidt 1948; Gellhorn 1936; Gellhorn and Spiesman 1934, 1935; Schulte 1964). Part I of Appendix B discusses human health effects of high-concentration exposure to carbon dioxide in greater detail. - http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/fire/co2/co2report.html
The advantages of Halon 1211 (most common I think) is that it leaves the extinguisher as 85% liquid and 15% gas. It is also used in areas where there will likely be people as Halon is relatively safe to breath. The problem is the production of Halon ceased on January 1, 1994, under the Clean Air Act. Halon is a CFC. Haltron on the other had is discharged as a liquid. It is environmentally safe. I've read that Haltron is about 1/2 as good as Halon 1301. Haltron is a replacement for 1211, IIRC. The best is 1301 which is a gas.
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I'll stick with the dry-chem for now. Those others are just too expensive and in any case I've helped put out two engine fires (many years ago) with just dirt thrown on them and they got put out before much damage was done.
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I'll stick with the dry-chem for now. Those others are just too expensive and in any case I've helped put out two engine fires (many years ago) with just dirt thrown on them and they got put out before much damage was done.
I think many of the expo guy's are running two small AFFF's and one big dry-chem. The reason being, if it's a small electrical fire under the dash the small extinguishers are probably going to be good enough. If it's big enough to use the big guns then you're just trying to salvage the vehicle and hope it doesn't burn to the ground. Auto fires can accelerate very quickly. If you can get it when it's small, you're OK. When they start to get big, you need a lot of retardant. It sucks to get it close to extinguishing then run out and have it flair up again.
You can get a Kiddie 5lbs CD (CO2) for $150 or a 10lbs Dry-chem for $50. I like the Pro models since they use a metal handle and valve. They can also be recharged.
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I just have a small dry chem (dont remember if it is 1lb or 2.5lbs) on the roll bar... Have not needed it yet, and hope I dont. It is all metal, refilable, and the pressure gauge reads just fine. I guess it's enough for a small fire, but anything big, and I am screwed!
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I just have a small dry chem (dont remember if it is 1lb or 2.5lbs) on the roll bar... Have not needed it yet, and hope I dont. It is all metal, refilable, and the pressure gauge reads just fine. I guess it's enough for a small fire, but anything big, and I am screwed!
That would be my biggest worry. I've seen how fast car fires can move.
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At concentrations greater than 17 percent, such as those encountered during carbon dioxide fire suppressant use, loss of controlled and purposeful activity, unconsciousness, convulsions, coma, and death occur within 1 minute of initial inhalation of carbon dioxide (OSHA 1989, CCOHS 1990, Dalgaard et al. 1972, CATAMA 1953, Lambertsen 1971). At exposures between 10 and 15 percent, carbon dioxide has been shown to cause unconsciousness, drowsiness, severe muscle twitching, and dizziness within several minutes (Wong 1992, CATAMA 1953, Sechzer et al. 1960). Within a few minutes to an hour after exposure to concentrations between 7 and 10 percent, unconsciousness, dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, mental depression, shortness of breath, and sweating have been observed (Schulte 1964, CATAMA 1953, Dripps and Comroe 1947, Wong 1992, Sechzer et al. 1960, OSHA 1989). Exposures to 4 to 7 percent carbon dioxide can result in headache; hearing and visual disturbances; increased blood pressure; dyspnea, or difficulty breathing; mental depression; and tremors (Schulte 1964; Consolazio et al. 1947; White et al. 1952; Wong 1992; Kety and Schmidt 1948; Gellhorn 1936; Gellhorn and Spiesman 1934, 1935; Schulte 1964). Part I of Appendix B discusses human health effects of high-concentration exposure to carbon dioxide in greater detail. - http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/fire/co2/co2report.html
these are for indoors use, outdoors co2 is as safe as it gets (unless you discharge it in your face you're fine).
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these are for indoors use, outdoors co2 is as safe as it gets (unless you discharge it in your face you're fine).
Never had an electrical fire under your dash while driving?
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Never had an electrical fire under your dash while driving?
n/a, won't count for that much percentage unless you do it with doors and windows closed.
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Never had an electrical fire under your dash while driving?
Uhm.... not really...
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n/a, won't count for that much percentage unless you do it with doors and windows closed.
And if you are? Not everyone has an open Jeep and you can't predict when a fire happens. It's just something to be aware of. 15% isn't much. Uhm.... not really...
A friend of mind had what started as class C fire at the dash/firewall that quickly turned into an engine fire that then engulfed the whole front end fo the Jeep. Ended up being a total loss. I think he had a 2lbs extinguisher.
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Everyone mentions that the pressure in their dry chem. is holding fine and therefore assume its OK. In commercial buildings dry chems. are required to be serviced every year, not only because of the pressure but because of the tendency of the fine powder to compact in the container. It will compact so hard it can render the extinguisher unless when you need it most. I remove mine every few months and tap it with a rubber mallet and shake it up to prevent it from compacting to much. Just sitting in a building it compacts, so think about hard it can become in a vehicle. We service and refill the dry chems. on our fire/rescue vehicles and its amazing how hard it becomes. CO2 Extinguishers are also required to be hydro-statically tested very 5 years and dry chem every 12 yr's. which usually makes it cheaper to buy a new one as opposed to refilling your small dry chems (if they are refillable) and having to have it tested if it is over the test date.
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And if you are? Not everyone has an open Jeep and you can't predict when a fire happens. It's just something to be aware of. 15% isn't much.
here's what i think and i'm far from being an authority in the matter so take it with a grain of salt:
your body has a built in alarm system for excess of CO2, if you try to hold your breath that's just what happens - you'll eventually start gasping for air and that is due to increase co2 content in your lungs, an automated failsafe trigger that will force you to open your mouth and breathe in fresh air - it's not the lack of oxygen that sends the alarm, it's the increase content of co2, hypoxia is one of the known issues, where for example, at high altitude the lack of oxygen causes the brain to malfunction with no warning or discomfort other than getting tired quickly and that is since there is not enought co2 to "tell" you something's wrong, you'll be losing consciousness without realizing what is happening to you. An inert odourless gas could have the same result in high concentrations which would result in low oxygen percentage, you'd be out without warning and without enough oxygen you might sustain brain damage.
At the other extreme is for example deep diving, i can't remember all details but in this case the air you breathe in has added nitrogen to prevent too much oxygen from going into your lungs and bloodstream (would be due to increased air pressure going in your lungs so you can breathe and that would result in more air mass and therefore a higher oxygen count per each breath, without the increased pressure at those depths to compensate your lungs would collapse).
On the other hand i don't see anyone stopping the vehicle with smoke coming out and not opening the door, stepping out and deploying the f/e from the outside (side of the car) somehow, if you do run into trouble (too much co2) your body will tell you and even if you continue to the extreme (unlikely, try doing that by holding your breath) you'll pass out and release the trigger, should dissipate quickly and you won't lose your life (but then again that's with a door open, doesn't have to be with the top off.
Enclosed spaces with automated gas based fire suppression are dangerous as you might not be able to make it out of the room and colapse in which case your life is in danger - that's why all of them have pre-deployment alarm and have override emergency switches in that area for cancelling the process.
but then again nothing is 100% failsafe, regardless of what type of f/e you are using since it is under pressure if you mishandle it you can get hurt and that includes what you are saying (releasing the gas and not take precautions of breathing in excessive amounts - in that case yes there is a risk and that also includes the dry-chem ones which i doubt are safe in an enclosed space either).
but that's just my opinion - i'm no expert in the matter so if anyone knows more i'd like to hear it (i guess i'm too lazy to google it)
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We don't have a fire extinguishers in any our jeeps yet. should really get some. I have seen a few car fires and they get nasty quick.. :yikes:
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I do e-crew at the race track on occasion, the rule ALWAYS is GTFO. THEN save the car.
We don't spray water inside the car until we have the driver out to avoid steam flash burns and or moving/igniting spilling fuel/oil around.
There is a product called "Cold Fire' that can be put in water type extinguishers, its really effective. We use it at the track becasue it puts out fuel fires and is cheap. and does not ruin a engine like a dry-chem bottle will.
Dry chem is exactly like pouring grinding compound in the engine, it goes through air filters and any gap it can find, the compound also melts on surfaces that are hot and nearly impossible to get off.
A "Fire Bottle" brand in car extinguisher system with install kit is about 400 bucks.
Usually its 1 nozzle in the engine bay and 1 in the passenger bay and one in the fuel cell can.
It has a remote pull that gets installed convenient to the driver. It should fit under the driver seat of a jeep.
Put 1 nozzle in the engine bay and one on top of the dash One under the dash pointed up and your covered.
A battery disconnect properly installed is great insurance as well. If you kill the battery
and alternator the electrical system is dead. (Good thing) Because electrical fires seldom
keep burning if the power is gone.
Dave
PS: GTFO = Get the F*** OUT! :thumb:
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Thanks for the info. I took a look at the Cold Fire products on the internet and they look pretty good.
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PS: GTFO = Get the F*** OUT! :thumb:
Hahah I can see someone taking that to heart and bailing from a moving vehicle on the interstate. ;) :lol:
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I have a can of the Cold Fire in the Jeep. My fireman friend gave it to me some time ago. It's a small can but it's better than nothing.
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I like those cans can be pressurized with a bicycle tire pump, pretty convenient.