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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Csechols on November 26, 2011, 10:07:30 PM
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Has anyone ever had a problem with their rocker arms getting worn out were they ride under the bridges?? Mine have grooves worn into the sides of the rockers causing valvtrain noise I believe. Its a 95 2.5 133xxx. I have all ready changed the lifters and timing chain with no luck. I didn't notice the grooves until I read somewhere that it could be an issue?
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Has anyone ever had a problem with their rocker arms getting worn out were they ride under the bridges?? Mine have grooves worn into the sides of the rockers causing valvtrain noise I believe. Its a 95 2.5 133xxx. I have all ready changed the lifters and timing chain with no luck. I didn't notice the grooves until I read somewhere that it could be an issue?
measure the preload on the lifters, if you got new lifters and pushrods the only reason they'd be noisy is if the preload is not adequate. the worn bridges and/or rockers can cause the lack of preload. Also, how's your oil pressure?
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How do you check the preload? My oil paid is 35 at idle and. 60 at like 2500 rpm.
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How do you check the preload? My oil paid is 35 at idle and. 60 at like 2500 rpm.
oil pressure is good. did you change the pushrods along with the lifters? if not buy 8 of them and replace the old ones.
2 ways you can check the preload
- bring the cylinder in compression (at ignition stroke tdc with both valves closed), put a dial indicator at the end of the rocker where the pushrod seat is, set dial to zero, release both bolts slowly little at a time and keep going until the dial stops, read the dial indication - that's your preload
- put a straight edge on the cyl head along the pushrods, bring the cyl in compression just like above, mark the pushrod level with the straight edge (a blade from a cutter works best and rub it against the pushrod), release the rocker bolts and mark again, measure the distance between the 2 marks.
first option is easiest though.
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Thanks. i will have to try and measure it. the old lifters that i replaced were in good condition.. They werent mushroomed at all and came out really easy. i did not replace the pushrods and i know i should have but i allready orders new rockers, bridges and pushrods and they should be here thursday. I hope this fixes it. I know i have good oil flow up to the valves. My compression is damn near perfect at 147psi in all cyl. I Inspected the lower end and everything looked good. kinda worries me that no one has had this issue.. haha One other thing is... i just notice this but i took my intake tube off to look down my throttle body and when i started the jeep without the intake tube on the tapping noise was 100% louder.
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Ok, so i changed the push rods, lifters, and rocker arms with no luck. the noise is still thier. i just spent an hour with a stethoscope and located exactly were the noise is coming from .. i used a rubber fuel line hose as my stethascope and when i put it on the bottom of the oil pan right under were the #2 piston would be i can hear the noise really loud. if i move it in any other direction the noise is still thier but not as loud as the number 2 piston. it must be a rod bearing since the noise is constant on every crankshaft revolution? when i unlpug the #2 injector the noise gets way louder. after the jeep worms up you cant hear it as much but if you stick that stethascope thier , you can hear it loud and clear. were is the oil pump located under that pan?
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Several years of the 2.5 and 4.0 had issues with "piston slap" it made a
clacking noise, sometimes on 1 piston sometimes on all of them. It was usually
louder when cold and quieter when warmed up.
Rod or main bearings "usually" are constantly noisy on the ones that failed for me.
Up side is its easy to drop the oil pan and check them....
Dave
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Yea i want myself to believe its piston slap but i just want to make sure it is... i just used my stethascope again to just double check.. i cant hear that noise on both sides of the engine block even when i stick it near the # 2 and 3 spark plugs. the noise has not gotten any worse after 10k miles on it... im sure whatever it is if it hasnt broken yet it should be good hahaha.
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Piston Slap will drive you nuts. Have a 2000 Gmc Sierra 1500. When 1st starting it on a cold Morning it is bad, but let it Idle till its gone and it does not come back as long as its warm, Started about a year after I bought it, So Have had that noise since 2007 and its still running strong. But that noise drives me nuts.
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Yea its really annoying. Is the oil pump on a 2.5 located kinda by the #2 piston under the oil pan? and its ran off the distributor correct? im almost wondering if its my oil pump since when i first go the jeep i had about 40 at idle and 75 at like 2500. now its down to 30 at idle and 45 or 50 at 2500. Would oil pumps make this type of noise though?
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could be a broken piston skirt, same issue was described in another thread and that turned out to be the problem - dropping the oil pan will tell. Oil pump won't make that noise
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could be a broken piston skirt, same issue was described in another thread and that turned out to be the problem - dropping the oil pan will tell. Oil pump won't make that noise
Sounds like Sharpxmen is talking about my jeep. The symtoms of the noise near the #2 piston is exactly what I found after rulling out the valve train. I hope I can pull the head this weekend if I get time and pull out the pistons. Hopefully the wife and others will give money for xmas so I can buy some new pistons :smile:
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I would not bother to just replace the pistons, If I found a broken skirt it would be rebuild time.
You can check the pistons just by dropping the pan.
Usually if its a broken piston it obvious. You either find bits in the pan, or you can see the cracks from below.
(Occasionally not but that's where I'd start.) While your at it make sure you have a new front main seal and
oil pan gasket set they are not really re-usable and they are not too expensive.
Beyond that a standard NAPA rebuild kit has pretty good parts, you'll need most of them just to swap the pistons...
To do the pistons right your like 80% of the way to just rebuilding the engine...
Just my 2 cents,, probably overpriced!
Dave
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I would not bother to just replace the pistons, If I found a broken skirt it would be rebuild time.
You can check the pistons just by dropping the pan.
Usually if its a broken piston it obvious. You either find bits in the pan, or you can see the cracks from below.
(Occasionally not but that's where I'd start.) While your at it make sure you have a new front main seal and
oil pan gasket set they are not really re-usable and they are not too expensive.
Beyond that a standard NAPA rebuild kit has pretty good parts, you'll need most of them just to swap the pistons...
To do the pistons right your like 80% of the way to just rebuilding the engine...
Just my 2 cents,, probably overpriced!
Dave
full engine rebuild is a whole other story so i'll have to disagree - you add crank, cylinders and cyl head rebuild and will add up to a lot more than just $150 for a good set of pistons and rings (add another $30 or $40 for the gaskets - oil pan, cyl head and valve cover is all you need). really, we're talking about 5 times more in the end (will get to $1k if not more with all the parts and machining costs) - not saying it's a bad idea but major cost difference between the 2.
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Finally took my oil pan off. The noise I heard was most noticeable near the number 2 cylinder. With the oil pan on. All connecting rods could be moved from front to back - in line with the crank. None of them had play up and down. I'm not sure if Mine have too much side to side play? I mean they move from one side of the crankshaft to the other side. All the pistons looked good. No cracks or broken skirts. I'm not sure were to go from here. The oil pump and distributer are in that area were the noise was coming from. One other thing is I kinda twist the connecting rod and see the piston move sideways a little bit. Every cylinder does this. I'm not sure what to do next. Here's a video
<a href=http://s1128.photobucket.com/albums/m494/csechols38/?action=view¤t=VID_20111208_144859.mp4 target=_blank><img src=http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1128.photobucket.com/albums/m494/csechols38/VID_20111208_144859.mp4 border=0 alt=>[/url]
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http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1128.photobucket.com/albums/m494/csechols38/VID_20111208_144859.mp4
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http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1128.photobucket.com/albums/m494/csechols38/VID_20111208_144859.mp4
get some specs and measure how much play is there
there should be a spec for that ask a machine shop if you have to.
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longitudinal play is required and will always be there - the twisting not so much but it's hard to tell how much clearance is there, only way to tell for sure is with a plastigage. I can't tell if it's fine or not to be honest, the insides look ok and from what i can tell it's fine but just a guess based on what i saw in that video
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Maybe it could be a wristpin? How could I check the wrist pin with it all still assembled?
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Maybe it could be a wristpin? How could I check the wrist pin with it all still assembled?
on the exhaust cycle of a piston, rotate the crank the way the engine would rotate when running so it pushes the piston up the cylinder, stop and push on the underside of the piston with somethin, see if it moves up, but would be again hard to tell unless it is very obvious. You can also try with the piston all the way down and move the crank back and forth and try to see if there's play between the pin and piston (so the pin would go up and down and the piston would not move
EDIT: how loud is it though, just wondering if you're chasing ghosts. could be just piston slap in which case would be very hard to tell unless you can move the skirt side to side (same axis as the longest part of the skirt) and estimate the clearance. also, inspect the cam since you have the oil pan out and see if there's any unusual wear, that can also cause strange noises
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this is a video I posted awhile go. I origionally thought it was piston slap but after compression check each h cylinder had like 147 paid cold. Which made me doubt that's what it was. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5ZDBJR6e20&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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this is a video I posted awhile go. I origionally thought it was piston slap but after compression check each h cylinder had like 147 paid cold. Which made me doubt that's what it was. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5ZDBJR6e20&feature=youtube_gdata_player
compression could be good but still have slap, of course won't be perfect
is the noise reducing with engine temp?
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When it gets to operating temp , the noise goes away completely unless I'm revving it really high then u can hear it slightly tapping. Its really loud when cold so I just let it worm up for 10 minutes and it's gone
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When it gets to operating temp , the noise goes away completely unless I'm revving it really high then u can hear it slightly tapping. Its really loud when cold so I just let it worm up for 10 minutes and it's gone
so that rules out the rod bearings (would be more noisy when hot and the oil is thinner), i think it's piston slap or valvetrain noise, why the latter would be after swapping all those parts i don't know, it could be minor lack of preload on one of the lifters for some reason or maybe even a bad lifter but that's quite unlikely since they're all new. A valve stem that is out of spec (that has wear) is also a possibility (and once everything gets hot and expands it goes away). What type of oil are you using btw? 10w30 is recommended for moderate weather, extreme cold asks for 5w30.
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Using synsyntic 10w30. Would a wrispin always be noisy? No one has ever had their oil pump make this noise? Or distributor? The sound is most noticeable in that general area... the teeth on the can gear look kinda worn but thief's not much play between the distributor gear and can gear.. . Another thing is that my cam lobes had some wear on the corners of the heel. Not so much that their is is a noticeable groove they are just off colored. My old lifters didn't show any sign of. Bad wear...
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i never heard of the oil pump or dist gear to make such noise but that's just me, not sure if possible
i doubt it's the pins but then again nothing's for sure. if it really bothers you you'll still have to take it apart to fix it even if you figure it out before doing so.
start by measuring the preload, that can tell you the state of the cam and/or valves since you replaced everything else and take it from there. You can also bring the pistons in compression and rotate the pushrods, it can tell you if some or one is rotating freely then it means there's no preload. You can also spin the oil pump by taking out the dist, i doubt that's your issue, the noise would be different though it's hard to confuse it with piston slap or lifter noise.
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I couldn't find anything wrong with the wristpins or rod bearings. Piston #2 can move around in the bore more than the other pistons. Piston slap! I put a new oil pump in and I'm not not gonna worry about it anymore. Thanks for all the help guys!