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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Saggy on February 28, 2012, 09:25:31 AM
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Thanks for the help locating the freeze plug behind the bell housing. I dropped the transmission and replaced the freeze plug. Everything went back together properly and the leak has stopped. I obviously had to dump all of the coolant and refill it to get the new plug in.
I ran it around the block and everything seemed fine. It got up to temp, the thermostat opened, and I saw the gauge on the dash drop. I was happy until I got back to the garage and smelled coolant that had boiled out of the radiator. I also noticed that the electric Taurus fan never kicked on...even while the liquid in the radiator was boiling out.
The first thing I could think of was to test the thermostat that goes through the radiator fins to control the electric fan circuit. I put a lighter under it and it eventually kicked on...but I don't know at what temperature and I can't think of a way to measure the temp this thermostat kicks on. Any ideas there? Also, are there any other possibilities I am overlooking? If the cooling system was air locked the thermo in the water pump wouldn't be able to pull liquid out of the radiator to make the gauge in the dashboard drop, right?
Anyhow, thanks for the help with the freeze plugs. And thanks in advance for your help here!
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I had it airlocked when i replaced my thermostat, refilled it and was fine afterwards (it boiled).
you can check the thermocouple or sender for your e-fan by sticking it in a pan with water, should kick in close to boiling point (make sure it does not touch the pan bottom, should be suspended in water) - if the water boils and it does not kick in then you have an issue.
also, make sure your radiator cap is holding pressure, if it does not it will boil sooner - they're cheap so you might want to just replace it anyway.
and the least likely cause can be if the thermostat is installed backwards (although i have no idea if the housing is deep enough to allow that).
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It ended up being the thermo switch. Am I a fool to get another cheap Hayden probe from O'Reilly? Looks like they have 3 models from pre-set switch temps to adjustable. I've read a bunch of posts from people who say they're junk. On the other hand, a lot of people still seem to be using Hayden switches.
Any ideas?
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I used one of the Hayden kits from oriely. is worked good has a variable resistor or something you turn to adjust fan kickin temp. only problem i have had with it is the radiator fins disintegrating around it not allowing it to get a good reading because my radiator is shot.
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just going to ask this anyway although it is a very long shot but i've seen it done before: are you using a relay with that thermocouple or it is directly in-line with the e-fan?
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Running it through a relay. The relay does trigger the fan when the two leads running through the thermo switch are shorted.
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Running it through a relay. The relay does trigger the fan when the two leads running through the thermo switch are shorted.
i'm using an adjustable hayden with a tread-in probe for the low speed (so not the one that goes thru fins) and a second one non-adjustable also thread-in probe for high speed (both thread in to the bottom of the radiator right where the outlet is) - this way i have some redundancy if the low speed one gets bust since the high speed thermocouple is not used at all and some insurance on hot days if the low speed is not keeping up. The low speed kicks in between 190 to 195, the high speed around 200. The adjustable one uses a thermostat so the life of it is longer than a regular contact type one, but there's always a matter of the electronics going bad so it's good to have some alternative. I think they came up with a 2 speed one for about $40 or so after i bought mine, but imo 2 different circuits/systems is better for insurance.
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Thanks for the help locating the freeze plug behind the bell housing. I dropped the transmission and replaced the freeze plug. Everything went back together properly and the leak has stopped. I obviously had to dump all of the coolant and refill it to get the new plug in.
I ran it around the block and everything seemed fine. It got up to temp, the thermostat opened, and I saw the gauge on the dash drop. I was happy until I got back to the garage and smelled coolant that had boiled out of the radiator. I also noticed that the electric Taurus fan never kicked on...even while the liquid in the radiator was boiling out.
The first thing I could think of was to test the thermostat that goes through the radiator fins to control the electric fan circuit. I put a lighter under it and it eventually kicked on...but I don't know at what temperature and I can't think of a way to measure the temp this thermostat kicks on. Any ideas there? Also, are there any other possibilities I am overlooking? If the cooling system was air locked the thermo in the water pump wouldn't be able to pull liquid out of the radiator to make the gauge in the dashboard drop, right?
Anyhow, thanks for the help with the freeze plugs. And thanks in advance for your help here!
First make sure the fan didn't blow any fuses. You can wire the fan directly, leaving out the thermostatic switch so the fan turns on when the engine is on. Also are you using hi-speed or low speed? You shouldn't need hi-speed.
Where is your probe mounted? It needs to be at the top of the radiator near the inlet hose. If it is adjustable when what's it set at? I have mine cranked down to 180 which turns on when the gauge temp is 195 almost exactly.
I use a Flex-a-lite adjustable thermostat which is basically teh same as the hayden. Also, make sure the thermostatic switch is on the switch circuit and not the fan circuit as most switches aren't setup for high amps.
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I hadn't considered running the high speed through a thermo switch too. I have it running to an on-off-on switch on the dash. I can't tell you how many times the kids have been playing and flipped that switch. It made a whole lot of sense when I was single with no kids. Wish I had thought that one through!
I like your idea for a redundant circuit with the high speed. I might have to borrow that from you.
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I hadn't considered running the high speed through a thermo switch too. I have it running to an on-off-on switch on the dash. I can't tell you how many times the kids have been playing and flipped that switch. It made a whole lot of sense when I was single with no kids. Wish I had thought that one through!
I like your idea for a redundant circuit with the high speed. I might have to borrow that from you.
You shouldn't need the Hi-speed. But if you do you'll need a high amp relay.
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You shouldn't need the Hi-speed. But if you do you'll need a high amp relay.
that was my thinking, since it will [almost] never be used it is less likely to fail (both relay and thermocouple) and be available if the primary one does not work. I used a 50 amp relay for that.
I hadn't considered running the high speed through a thermo switch too. I have it running to an on-off-on switch on the dash. I can't tell you how many times the kids have been playing and flipped that switch. It made a whole lot of sense when I was single with no kids. Wish I had thought that one through!
I like your idea for a redundant circuit with the high speed. I might have to borrow that from you.
you can find my setup here http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,10360.0.html
not the usual (it's overkill) but just so you can an idea.
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Damn, man. Nice write-up. Will definitely study that to see what I can borrow from it.
I swapped out the thermo switch with the constant temp Hayden 3652. It is supposed to come on at 185 and off at 165. It didn't fix the problem. Coolant still comes out from the cap. By the way, I also tried a new cap just to make sure it wasn't a worn spring or gasket on the cap.
The probe is pushed through the radiator fins just below the upper hose. It has always kicked the fan on in the past. Not sure what has changed here. I have noticed that I have more coolant in the overflow container than usual. It may even be just above the line. I don't understand how the coolant overflow works so not sure whether this could be a problem or not.
Could this be as simple as removing some liquid from the overflow container?
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from which cap is the coolant coming out of? the overflow has 2 marks, cold and hot, you fill it cold to the bottom mark, let it warm up and should be around the top mark (again this is hot), if you fill to the top mark when it's hot then it will overflow. So if you did that then you don't have a problem. if you get bubbles in the overflow tank (after all the air purged out if you opened your radiator cap recently) then it's boiling, otherwise it isn't. Is the e-fan coming on at all?
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It is coming out of the spring cap on the radiator. The efan never comes on. I am going to have to check to see if the overflow is at (or maybe an inch beyond) the top mark when the engine is cold or hot. I know it is there, just can't remember when. It seems like it is there when the engine is cold.
I had isolated it to the thermo switch because when I manually switch the high speed fan on with my in-cabin switch the radiator doesn't boil out. But replacing the switch didn't make the fan come on before coolant came out the rad cap.
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Did some reading on how the overflow tank works thinking maybe I had it overfilled when the engine is cold. Sounds like as the liquid in the radiator heats and expands, the radiator cap opens the first stage spring which lets coolant flow out of the radiator neck through the hose to the overflow tank. When the engine is turned off, the cooling liquid creates a vacuum which sucks the liquid from the overflow tank back into the radiator. So now I understand why you were asking which cap coolant was overflowing from.
I'm totally confused about why the e-fan isn't being kicked on by the thermo switch though. The placement just below the upper hose used to trip the switch. I took the radiator cap off and watched coolant circulate as the thermostat in the water pump kicked in so I know that is working. Shorting the leads that feed into the thermo switch turns the fan on so I know the relay, fan and in-cabin on-off-on switch are all good.
The only thing that has changed is the freeze plug leak has been fixed.
Is it possible that I got another faulty thermo switch from O'Reilly? Should do some plumbing and install a probe that contacts the coolant rather than the through-the-fins probe?
Totally flumaxed by this one.
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Fixing the freeze plug eliminated that escape route so now it comes out the cap.
On a couple of older vehicles with carburetors I've had overheating problems due to the timing being off even though there was nothing wrong with the cooling system. Could this come into play here?
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I had issues from the beginning with the probe installed in the fins. I drilled and tapped the thermostat housing, mounted the sensor. No troubles so far. It would probably be better mounted in the Radiator tho.
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water should never come out of the radiator cap unless it is not screwed in all the way (tightened). what's the temp like at the gauge?
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water should never come out of the radiator cap unless it is not screwed in all the way (tightened). what's the temp like at the gauge?
This is a very important point ... Is it actually overheating or is it just a problem with the cap or the neck of the radiator where the cap screws on?
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This is a very important point ... Is it actually overheating or is it just a problem with the cap or the neck of the radiator where the cap screws on?
I had this same thought. I replaced the radiator cap and had the same result. The cap fits around the neck, turns about a half turn, pushes down and turns the rest of the way so I don't THINK there is a problem with the neck. Can anyone think of a better way to validate the fit than 'feel' though?
water should never come out of the radiator cap unless it is not screwed in all the way (tightened). what's the temp like at the gauge?
Now that I understand how the overflow works (it's actually NOT magic!) I get where you're going with this. I will grab a radiator pressure test set and report back.
Thanks...yet again...for all of the help.
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I had this same thought. I replaced the radiator cap and had the same result. The cap fits around the neck, turns about a half turn, pushes down and turns the rest of the way so I don't THINK there is a problem with the neck. Can anyone think of a better way to validate the fit than 'feel' though?
Now that I understand how the overflow works (it's actually NOT magic!) I get where you're going with this. I will grab a radiator pressure test set and report back.
Thanks...yet again...for all of the help.
Also check the temperature, is it actually overheating? If the cap or neck is not holding pressure then the coolant will boil at a lower temperature than if it was held at a higher pressure by the cap.
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I had this same thought. I replaced the radiator cap and had the same result. The cap fits around the neck, turns about a half turn, pushes down and turns the rest of the way so I don't THINK there is a problem with the neck. Can anyone think of a better way to validate the fit than 'feel' though?
Now that I understand how the overflow works (it's actually NOT magic!) I get where you're going with this. I will grab a radiator pressure test set and report back.
Thanks...yet again...for all of the help.
ho problem - make sure the cap you got is the right one (is it new?) - some radiators have a built-in overflow tank at the top and there is no gasket on the cap for the outer (top) rim, just the bottom, yours should have a gasket on both bottom and top so when the coolant expands and makes it past the bottom seal will go into the overflow and not make its way around the cap top seal. Another thing to check is if your tube from the radiator to the o/f tank is not plugged, i've seen this with old rubber which breaks down and gums up the tube.
Also check the temperature, is it actually overheating?
yeah, i was wondering the same thing (if it's not just the liquid expanding)
EDIT: is it going past 210 and the fan not kicking in?
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No. That has been the funny part. I see the temp gauge fall when it gets just past half-way and it stays within range.
Actually, as I remember back, I put a rad pressure tester on it before I hooked the tranny back up. I never could get it to hold pressure. I dismissed it as a bad tester because it wouldn't seat properly on the neck. I can't believe I'm just putting all this together.
So, what happens if the neck somehow got bent a little out of shape? I don't know how that could have happened...but I do leave the hood wide open when it is in the garage so I can disconnect/reconnect the batteries.
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Sounds like this might be figured out.
New radiators are not too expensive, you can even get all aluminum ones from eBay at good prices. You might also be able to reshape the neck.
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Well crap.
I'll check it out tonight when I get home. Sounds like it could be a candidate for the oxy torch and a set of needle nose.
Will report back. Thanks to all.
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This looks like a good deal: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140713646453#ht_500wt_1202
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Well crap.
I'll check it out tonight when I get home. Sounds like it could be a candidate for the oxy torch and a set of needle nose.
Will report back. Thanks to all.
don't use a torch on it, you'll melt the solder if it's not plastic, if it's plastic that's a no-brainer - Is yours plastic tanks or brass tanks? I would just buy an all aluminum one (with welded tanks) double row from ebay, got mine for about $125 shipped (around that, was 2 years ago) and i can't be happier.
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It is pretty new. Just put it in two or three years ago. I think the neck is brass. Assuming that really is what the problem is, hopefully it will be soft enough to bend back with pliers. Otherwise, looks like another new radiator may be in the cards. Seems like a waste!
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It is pretty new. Just put it in two or three years ago. I think the neck is brass. Assuming that really is what the problem is, hopefully it will be soft enough to bend back with pliers. Otherwise, looks like another new radiator may be in the cards. Seems like a waste!
check the cap, there should be a gasket on the top side as well - see if that's missing, should be quite bent out of shape if deformation on the neck is the problem.
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Damn, man. Nice write-up. Will definitely study that to see what I can borrow from it.
I swapped out the thermo switch with the constant temp Hayden 3652. It is supposed to come on at 185 and off at 165. It didn't fix the problem. Coolant still comes out from the cap. By the way, I also tried a new cap just to make sure it wasn't a worn spring or gasket on the cap.
The probe is pushed through the radiator fins just below the upper hose. It has always kicked the fan on in the past. Not sure what has changed here. I have noticed that I have more coolant in the overflow container than usual. It may even be just above the line. I don't understand how the coolant overflow works so not sure whether this could be a problem or not.
Could this be as simple as removing some liquid from the overflow container?
How is it wired? Like I said before, if you have the thermo switch on the fan side of the relay you'll overload the switch and melt it. Even if you have it wired correctly, you can end up melting connectors. This is why I switched to a CB over a fuse.
So in otherwords, make sure the fan actually turns on. Bypass the thermo switch.
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I took a closer look at the neck last night. I have no idea how it happened, but it is beat to hell. Something must have fallen directly on the cap at some point when the hood was up.
I beat it around a little bit and got the leak down to just a pin prick. Only a couple drops of coolant drip out after a pretty good amount of time. But at this point a couple drops is way too much. If I never see another drop of coolant leak from this thing it will be too soon. I'm sooo done with the cooling system.
Ordered another radiator. Should be on next weekend.
Thanks to all for the help!
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good that you figured it out in the end - until the new rad comes in you can always put some rtv there and let it set for couple of hours, is not permanent but can get you around until you replace it
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That's a great idea. I'll see if it works. I kind of...umm...beat the piss out of it trying to get the last little leak out of it. I got the outer lip perfectly formed but that elongated the inner hole. My patience was gone around 2am. I maybe could have exercised a little more...finesse. :guns:
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Glad to hear it will all be resolved soon.