4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: jfrabat on March 17, 2012, 07:28:02 PM
-
About a month ago, my dad took the Jeep out for a stroll, and the Coil died on him. He took his boat mechanic with him, changed the coil (I ALWAYS carry spares), and he was on his way. He proceeded to take it to an electical mechanic, and he tested several things, and they all checked out OK (voltage being received by the coil from the alternator, if there was any electricity being received by the coil when the key was turned off, short circuits, etc.). He told my dad he thought the issue was excesive heat. Today, we were driving back from Panama to Costa Rica, and the coil died again. Again, I changed it, and we were on our way, but this is REALLY getting tiring. When I changed the coil, obviously the whole assembly (coil, bolts, nuts and mounting plate) were too hot to touch. I am now considering buying a Flame Thrower coil with mount and simply installing the coil away from the engine (in the firewall, as high as possible). What do you guys think about this? Pros/Cons?
For your reference, this is what I am planning on getting:
(http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/flame/coils/img/40001_example.jpg)
While it's the perfect coil to go with the PerTronix Ignitor breakerless ignition, our 40,000 volt Flame-Thrower canister coil can benefit virtually any distributor type inductive system. Its higher voltage allows larger spark plug gaps for added power, smoother response and better fuel economy. These coils are internally resisted so they are compatible with many ignition systems.
Our oil filled coils offer great heat control for street driven vehicles, while our epoxy filled coils provide superior winding support for high vibration environments in offroad vehicles and boats.
Features
•40,000 volts
•Available chrome plated or black for that "stock look".
•For use with inductive ignition systems.
•1.5 or 3.0 Ohm primary resistance values available.
•Legal in all 50 states and Canada. (C.A.R.B. E.O. #D-57-10)
•Warranty: 90 Days
(http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/flame/coils/img/coil_info_chart.jpg)
By the way, do I want 1.5 or 3.0 Ohm resistance? And do I want oil filled or resine filled? I am thinking 3.0 Ohm resin filled, but not sure...
-
Oh, and I would mount it with this:
(http://mediacdn.shopatron.com/media/mfg/591/product_image/1727a52c2db4a23ba806f35d5fa84f68.jpg?1325720980)
-
something else is going on, all other YJs including mine have the coil in the same spot - it's got to be at least 4 coils you toasted so far.
-
Mine went right after I replaced mine with a flame thrower 3.0 ohms. But my problem was I did not match the Ohms. Mine got hot too so hot that the smoke from it was burning my eyes. I thought it was either mine or a truckers clutch going. Then it started to misfire.
Went with the performance Distributor coil and have not had one problem since.
The topic when I talk about it.
http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,9947.0.html
And one more that talks about the Performance Distributor stuff.
http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,29.0.html
-
Are you using coils that are supposed to use a ballast resistor? Some cars used a separate ballast resistor, others used a resistor wire from the ignition to the coil.
For some reason your coil is drawing to much current, which is what cooks it
-
I have actually toasted more than 6, including 2 or 3 screaming demons from performance distributors, and Accel coil, some cheap coils, and some original replacements... whatever is causing this, it is getting old quick! Any ideas on what to do are greatly welcome! I agree that changing the coild to another location will cure the symptom and not the problem, but I need some solution FAST! Any ideas on what to do?
-
I have actually toasted more than 6, including 2 or 3 screaming demons from performance distributors, and Accel coil, some cheap coils, and some original replacements... whatever is causing this, it is getting old quick! Any ideas on what to do are greatly welcome! I agree that changing the coild to another location will cure the symptom and not the problem, but I need some solution FAST! Any ideas on what to do?
are these coils going dead while driving (engine running) or just failing to start after the vehicle has been turned off and sitting for a while?
EDIT: and also, do you have an aftermarket alternator? if yes do this and let me know the result: pull the 2 terminal plug from the back of it and measure the voltage between each terminal and ground, let me know if any of the 2 has 12v on it - if that turns out to be the case there's a simple solution to your problem.
-
are these coils going dead while driving (engine running) or just failing to start after the vehicle has been turned off and sitting for a while?
EDIT: and also, do you have an aftermarket alternator? if yes do this and let me know the result: pull the 2 terminal plug from the back of it and measure the voltage between each terminal and ground, let me know if any of the 2 has 12v on it - if that turns out to be the case there's a simple solution to your problem.
Wouldn't overcharging fry the ecm also? I have seen some ecm's die within minutes due receiving around 16 volts. I think a good starting point would be to just add a ballast resistor to the coil on the positive side and see what happens.
Also I am not at all a fan of aftermarket ignition products, most are overpriced unreliable junk. Stock coils on average will last well over 100.000 miles.
About the only other cause, could be to high a secondary ignition demand. My vote is for to high a primary current through the coil
-
The coils are dying with the engine running. It starts as a little cough when accelarating (this last for a while), and then it just dies. If I reinstall a fried coil, I get some more miles from it (after they cool down), which goes with the theory of heat being the culprit. The voltage at the coil was measured with different electrical consumptions, and it was always between 13 and 14 volts (13.5V IIRC, but it could have been 13.8V; anyway, the guy said it was not that).
About the ballast resistor, what is it, where do you get it, how does it install, and what does it do?
-
Wouldn't overcharging fry the ecm also? I have seen some ecm's die within minutes due receiving around 16 volts. I think a good starting point would be to just add a ballast resistor to the coil on the positive side and see what happens.
[...] My vote is for to high a primary current through the coil
i wasn't thinking in regards to overvoltage - the ASD provides voltage at the alternator field and is controlled on the second wire by the PCM, if the voltage is present with the ignition off then the field is permanently connected and it would also have voltage at the ignition coil and the injectors - that was why i asked.
current is related to the voltage and impedance, if he's got the correct voltage and an OEM coil it should not have excessive current, but the ballast resistor is worth a shot, maybe something is screwy with the PCM, i don't know what's supposed to be on the coil driver inside the PCM (if it has a resistor or not and could be fried).
-
i wasn't thinking in regards to overvoltage - the ASD provides voltage at the alternator field and is controlled on the second wire by the PCM, if the voltage is present with the ignition off then the field is permanently connected and it would also have voltage at the ignition coil and the injectors - that was why i asked.
current is related to the voltage and impedance, if he's got the correct voltage and an OEM coil it should not have excessive current, but the ballast resistor is worth a shot, maybe something is screwy with the PCM, i don't know what's supposed to be on the coil driver inside the PCM (if it has a resistor or not and could be fried).
Would it also be worth a shot to tey to try to insulate the mount and/or the coil to reduce the heat, in case rhat is really the problem?
-
Bump... would insulating the mount cause ignition issues?
-
That could actually make it worse since the bracket will transmit heat to the engine block. Sharp could be on to something if the coil keeps getting power when the engine is off
-
That could actually make it worse since the bracket will transmit heat to the engine block. Sharp could be on to something if the coil keeps getting power when the engine is off
The mechanic in Panama checked for that, and there was no voltage with the ignition turned off...
-
The mechanic in Panama checked for that, and there was no voltage with the ignition turned off...
if not the alternator maybe a stuck ASD relay, it could be acting randomly as in getting stuck once in a while, but to be honest i don't know that even if that's the case if it would cause the coil to go bad, the PCM shouldn't keep the ground on the signal wire (never checked that but just my common sense) - i'm out of ideas though
-
You could always try this run a wire from the ignition switch to a ballast resistor then to a stock coil gap plugs to stock gap check distributor cap contacts and go from there
-
You could always try this run a wire from the ignition switch to a ballast resistor then to a stock coil gap plugs to stock gap check distributor cap contacts and go from there
Well, I am currently running stock gap (I thought maybe that could be causing issues, so I went back to that, but to no avail), and I installed a new cap before I left to Panama last time. I think I'll try the ballast resistor, but I hae no idea where to get that here...
-
I have not yet found a ballast resistor locally, but I did get to thinking a bit last night... If the relay for the horn worked randomly, it IS possible that the ASD relay was doing the same. So I went to day to the local dealership, and bought 2 new relays (they only had 2, so I bought both of them) and a Mopar Coil. I will replace the relays for the fuel pump and the ASD with the ones I got. I also got one more equivalent Bosch relay (these have the resistor built into them) for the horn, as the one I put there before did not have the resistor.
I also ordered this (http://www.amazon.com/Mallory-700-Performance-Ballast-Resistor/dp/B000BWE37I) ballast resistor from Amazon, but I now have to wait for it to arrive. I'll keep it in stock, and if I fry the coil again, I will install it somewhere in the engine compartment.
Felipe
-
In case of sticking relays and them somehow staying on, then the coil would be warm to hot still after it sits with the engine off for several hours or overnight
-
In case of sticking relays and them somehow staying on, then the coil would be warm to hot still after it sits with the engine off for several hours or overnight
Now that I never tested...
-
anyone know what's the impedance on the Jeep coil?
some vehicles have bypass ballast resistor on crank and thru resistor on run (to compensate for the voltage drop due to starter current) - but that would point back to the PCM or some weird wiring issue if there's some integrated resistor and is always bypassed. Some coils are just meant to run without it, not sure which one the Jeep is. For the record there is no external resistor on the YJ.
-
Just throwing this out there: Could it be a ground problem? Does the PCM provide a ground for the coil like it does for a bunch of other things on a YJ?
-
OK, I want your opinions. I already got me a ballast resistor, and I got this one:
(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/3IydgADul3exuseg45xL0tuZRgkCoSf_Bhs1jXXIHVpGCXNWStaymJFLrbVeMeun0FsyYPzvbcjWijMgprSUO59S7PhILvwfiTQ8kt5g9G7OLvLYsBXKd3bsx9YQPjLcO0iVFBV0VDNk)
Mallory - 700 - Ignition Coil Ballast Resistor - Goodies Speed Shop
Ignition Coil Ballast Resistor; 200 Watt; .75-1.5 Ohms; Variable Resistance; w/Threaded Terminal Connectors; For Use w/E-Spark/MBI/Unilite Distributors. Two Hundred Watt Rating. Threaded Terminal Connections. Improved Cold Weather Starting.
Now, I also have the new Mopar coil, and I also have a spare ECU in the Jeep. My plan is this:
1. Replace the current ECU with the spare in case that's the problem
2. Replace the current coil with the Mopar (stock) coil
Now, the old coil (the one I fried on the way to Costa Rica) seems to have cracked the plastic at the pulg side. I will try to get some pics up for you guys, but something is CERTAINLY wrong there... Also, the fact that I have a hard time if I try to start the Jeep immediatly after I turn the engine off (say, like when you stall it), tells me that I am DEFENETLY having some problems with the ignition (if I let it cool off for about 5 minutes, then it starts without issues).
Now, regarding the resistor, I plan to use it if I burn another coil, so I may just mount it now and have it ready to go in case I need to change another coil in the middle of nowhere (I'll just carry some blade conectors in case I need to repair on the road again), but I am a bit worried that it will make starting the Jeep problematic (I read this is a sideeffect of these resistors). Now, from what I read, the ones with variable resistance are the best, as they adjust to the conditions, so that's what I decided to get (hope I did not screw it all up!). Oh, and plugs are gapped at stock gap (.035"). My question is, would you guys advice me to install the resistor now, or wait until it fails again?
-
My vote is for try it now.
-
Originally they had this stuff rigged so the ballast resistor is by passed when starting you could tie a relay into the starter solenoid wiring so when cranking the coil gets 12 volts but when running only say 9 volts or so that's basically what it should drop down too with a ballast resistor
-
It could be wired to get those voltage changes based on the START and RUN positions of the key. START, bypass the resistor and RUN, have the resistor in the circuit. It seems the voltage drop will depend on the relative resistance of the ballast resistor and the coil. Do all coils have about the same resistance?
-
if it craked where the wire goes in i would replace that wire with a stock one (my thinking is it's wasting spark over there and that's why it cracked).
It could be wired to get those voltage changes based on the START and RUN positions of the key. START, bypass the resistor and RUN, have the resistor in the circuit. It seems the voltage drop will depend on the relative resistance of the ballast resistor and the coil. Do all coils have about the same resistance?
you can't really, it's powered by the ASD and not the start/run key switch (i wouldn't mess with that to be honest).
-
With the ASD involved it sounds like it would be pretty hard and might not end up very reliable.
The cracking does seem pretty significant. If it is arcing at the wire and at the plug, it might be too much resistance to ground. Could this cause a coil to fail?
-
With the ASD involved it sounds like it would be pretty hard and might not end up very reliable.
The cracking does seem pretty significant. If it is arcing at the wire and at the plug, it might be too much resistance to ground. Could this cause a coil to fail?
I'll see if I can get some pics of the coil up today...
-
Found this:
http://www.ehow.com/list_6387940_ignition-coil-problems-symptoms.html
Overheating
One of the most common causes of ignition coil failure is overheating due to excessive spark gap. Spark plugs that are gapped excessively large require additional voltage for the spark to jump from electrode to electrode. This causes additional load on the ignition coils and subsequently causes the internal coils to heat up. During the excessive heating and cooling process, the coils expand and contract each time diminishing their integrity and causing malfunction or total failure.
This pretty much confirms that having some arcing in addition to the plug gap could cause overheating problems. It also mentions expanding and contracting, which sure seems like it could cause cracking.
Have you tried looking at the engine running in the dark? I've detected bad plug and coil wires this way several times, you just see the sparks at night.
-
I will take a look at it tonight and see if I see anything strange... Thanks for the info!
-
Here are the pics of the coil; notice the cracking in the connector. There is also some cracking in the white resin, although, becuase of the color, it was kind of hard to get that to show on the pics...
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00471.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00470.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00472.jpg)
-
Have you ever replaced the electrical plug that goes into the coil. Cause that was not the end I expected to show heat damage.
-
Have you ever replaced the electrical plug that goes into the coil. Cause that was not the end I expected to show heat damage.
x2, that looks like a bad connection, possibly internally in the plug so i agree with grumpy that you should replace the connector. that can be the actual cause of your problems.
-
yep thats the main reason the plug ends melt and usually dont see it with i dig volt meter. would need to do some kind of voltage drop test to confirm. just get a new connector and i bet you will be fine IMHO. i do remember this happening at the dealership. in fact i think we even stocked the pigtail ends
-
Yup, the bad connector is causing excessive resistance which is causing the plug to melt.
-
So where is a good place to buy said plug?
-
Junkyard probably. Most Chrysler 90's cars and trucks should use a similar coil.
-
http://www.performancedistributors.com/jeep4.0.htm
Look at 31728-AH Kind of Spendy but cut one end off and you have the end you need.
Will check a couple of other spots.
About the same cost here.
http://www.quadratec.com/products/product_search.php?kw=+17610.03&submit=Go&sv=&sa=1
-
One question (and I obviously dont know jack about electronics!): If I cut the wires and connect the new plug, wont that afect the electrical flow and cause other problems down the line? I could not open the Qtec link (for some reason, my home internet does not connect to Qtec, and it's been like tha since I got to CR!), but I'll check the price from the office on Monday...
-
Just a data point, My 94 YJ has the same style coil and its mounted on the firewall.
The air cooled MSD (Looks similar) says not to mount it on the engine.
The connector is also used on many Ford cars. (Escort)
Napa has many of these connectors in their Echlin line.
The MPFI engines do not use balast resistors, nor do most air cooled coils.
Dave
-
One question (and I obviously dont know jack about electronics!): If I cut the wires and connect the new plug, wont that afect the electrical flow and cause other problems down the line? I could not open the Qtec link (for some reason, my home internet does not connect to Qtec, and it's been like tha since I got to CR!), but I'll check the price from the office on Monday...
don't you work for Sony :wall:
it will be fine (re: cut the wires and connect the pigtail), solder and shrink wrap imo.
-
don't you work for Sony :wall:
it will be fine (re: cut the wires and connect the pigtail), solder and shrink wrap imo.
You are right, but unfortunatly, I only know how to use, market, and sell them... :beers:
Thanks for the confirmation. I have some water proof connectors that I think I will use for this...
-
Just a little cheaper
http://www.thepartsbin.com/catalog/?N=&uts=true&Ntt=A35140021AH+1990+Jeep+Wrangler_-openp-YJ-closep-+Ignition_Coil_Adapter_Harness+Accel&tpbJeepigcoadhajeepwrangler(yj)19901995accela35140021ah1&tpbsendcid=tpbfroogle
-
i wonder if this is why your PCM got fried a while back (if it did, i seem to recall you said something to that nature in one of your threads).
-
i wonder if this is why your PCM got fried a while back (if it did, i seem to recall you said something to that nature in one of your threads).
No, that was a friend, not me. I did buy a used ecu when that happened to him to keep as a spare, but mine is still alive and kicking.
-
Just a little cheaper
http://www.thepartsbin.com/catalog/?N=&uts=true&Ntt=A35140021AH+1990+Jeep+Wrangler_-openp-YJ-closep-+Ignition_Coil_Adapter_Harness+Accel&tpbJeepigcoadhajeepwrangler(yj)19901995accela35140021ah1&tpbsendcid=tpbfroogle
Thanx, I just ordered that one. Fingers crossed!
-
Glad I could help.
-
So, I put in a new Mopar coil, the new connector, checked everything, and they coil started acting up again (I swaped it out before I burned it). Do I now install the Mallory 0.7-1.5 Ohm ballast resistor? I am also considering installing a new mounting bracket to the frame to get the coil away from the enginr's heat (in case that's what's causing the problem... Any other ideas are welcome!
-
swap the PCM and see if it does it again (you have a spare right?)
-
swap the PCM and see if it does it again (you have a spare right?)
I did that when I put in the coil that started acting up...
-
i've never seen this happening before with all the things you swapped already so i'm out of ideas.
-
i've never seen this happening before with all the things you swapped already so i'm out of ideas.
I think I will install the extra coil bracket (it would make cvhanging coils on my way to Panama) and include the. Ballast resistor there. I will order a coil extension chord, and have it ready to plug into the resistor if that coil fails. I just need to figure out how to make the holes the the frame, as I just found out my drill will not fit in there...
-
Ok just read everything again and did not see this. Have you changed the coil Wire. Had one on my truck(One coil per Cylinder) and started frying coils. It ended up being the coil wire had a internal break. This would act just like you had a too large of plug gap and overheat the coil.
Just a shot in the dark.
-
Ok just read everything again and did not see this. Have you changed the coil Wire. Had one on my truck(One coil per Cylinder) and started frying coils. It ended up being the coil wire had a internal break. This would act just like you had a too large of plug gap and overheat the coil.
Just a shot in the dark.
At this point, its worth a try, but I doubt this is the issue, as it has dones for a while now. How about a bad grou d? Vould that be the cause? How would I check for this?
-
Pull the wire check for resistance. While doing it move the wire around. Mine showed a a break.
-
Anyone knows where I can get an extension of the coil wire? I want to modify one to use with the ballast resistor (so it will be easy to plug it in or bypass it), but I cannot find one online...
-
If you have not changed the Distributor and are using a stock coil, there is something else wrong.
-
I still think there is an issue with the stock wiring. There's too much resistance in that wire which is causing it to overheat and melt the plug/coil.
-
Wonder if somehere before the wires were reversed to the coil.
Here is a way to check.
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig104.htm
-
Honestly speaking, I think I have a short somewhere in the stock wiring. Not only from this, but when I turn on my headlights, the right turn indicator lights up as well, which is another hint in this direction. I already installed a base with a second coil in there so that if I need to swap coils on the way to Panama I can do it quickly without tools (the coil will most likely not make it all the way), and I already made an appointment at a shop to have them check the whole wiring on the Jeep to try to get to the bottom of this issue...
So far I have changed:
Coil
Plug wires
Rotors and cap
Coil wire plug
ECU
Still to try are changing the coil location (which I will do once the coil on the engine burns out, to rule out heat as the culprit) and plugging in the ballast resistor (the resistor is already installed on the mount I made for the second coil, but it is not wired up; I am still looking for an extension for that one).
-
Honestly speaking, I think I have a short somewhere in the stock wiring. Not only from this, but when I turn on my headlights, the right turn indicator lights up as well, which is another hint in this direction.
should both turn on, so the other one is burned or has a ground problem.
-
should both turn on, so the other one is burned or has a ground problem.
Sorry, I meant the indicator on the dash... Not the actual light outside. When I signal to the right, and then turn off the signal, the intensity of the light goes down, and the builds.up again.
-
That delayed intensity build up sounds really strange. It seems your YJ does have some wiring problems.
-
Honestly speaking, I think I have a short somewhere in the stock wiring. Not only from this, but when I turn on my headlights, the right turn indicator lights up as well, which is another hint in this direction. I already installed a base with a second coil in there so that if I need to swap coils on the way to Panama I can do it quickly without tools (the coil will most likely not make it all the way), and I already made an appointment at a shop to have them check the whole wiring on the Jeep to try to get to the bottom of this issue...
So far I have changed:
Coil
Plug wires
Rotors and cap
Coil wire plug
ECU
Still to try are changing the coil location (which I will do once the coil on the engine burns out, to rule out heat as the culprit) and plugging in the ballast resistor (the resistor is already installed on the mount I made for the second coil, but it is not wired up; I am still looking for an extension for that one).
With the way it's burning up the plugs, it's most likely not a short. It's an partially open circuit. I'm gonna say it's a ground issue with your lights. I'm not sure about the coil but it could be. Open grounds can do weird things.
-
did you try replacing the blinker relay? i had some issues with those lights in the dash (not like yours though) and replacing that round relay fixed my problem, not sure if it's the same but it was something like $4 so imo for that much it's worth a shot.
-
With the way it's burning up the plugs, it's most likely not a short. It's an partially open circuit. I'm gonna say it's a ground issue with your lights. I'm not sure about the coil but it could be. Open grounds can do weird things.
I was thinking among the same lines... Anyway, the shop says they can check the wiring in 2 days, so I will have them check it out. It's better than spending $2K and a month to install a complete new wiring kit, that's for sure!
-
So anything yet.
-
Well, this time the Jeep made it all the way to Panama without issues. I also used it yesterday and today, and no burnt coils yet, but it did come close to stalling when taking off the line. I will have the electrical system checked next week anyway, though.
-
Well, had the shop check the entire electrical system, and they could not find a thing (they did not even charge me). Of course, I have very strong doubts about how well a job they did checking, as I asked them also to adjust the TPS (it is giving me a code when I go full throttle that the voltage is over the range), which is basically loosening 2 torx bolts, measuring the voltage, and tightening again the 2 torx bolts, and they did not do it. I have to eventually check the ground, as I have my suspicions that this coul dbe the cause (some corrossion there or mud or both). Anyway, so far, the coil has survived, but the Jeep did do a couple of hiccups on the way to Panama that lead me to suspect that the root cause of the problem is still there. From this mechanic, my dad took the Jeep to an AC place to check why I have hot air coming in from the heater (their first idea is the same as mine; the door is not closing properly around the heater), so hopefully that will be fixed this week, in time for my business trip to Panama next tuesday.
-
hmm, there's no adjustment on the tps, so the problem is the tps itself, the wot limiter (is it going past the vertical at wot) or the 5v supply to the tps.
-
hmm, there's no adjustment on the tps, so the problem is the tps itself, the wot limiter (is it going past the vertical at wot) or the 5v supply to the tps.
You have to adjust the position with the screws... It's in the FSM, IIRC. I still have to measure the voltage and adjusted; hopefully, I will get to that next tuesday.
-
You have to adjust the position with the screws... It's in the FSM, IIRC. I still have to measure the voltage and adjusted; hopefully, I will get to that next tuesday.
the holes are not oval, they're round with very little room to move the sensor
other ones can be adjusted.
FSM says min 200mV max 4.8V - since it's basically a resistive pot it is related to the input voltage and the position, you can test that with a digital multimeter
-
bad ground for tps and map does affect sensor voltage also
-
When I changed my Throttlebody the 1st time I found my TPS was bad and replaced it. There was no Adjustment to it.
-
since it's basically a resistive pot it is related to the input voltage and the position, you can test that with a digital multimeter
Yeah, that's what I plan to do... I may just replace the thing as well...
-
if there was a ground issue with the tps that would cause the signal return to be 5v(above 4.8) causing code correct? so what happens if you follow that tps ground and cut out the splice and resolder. that should fix code and depending what all is on that ground circuit it may fix his other problems, i dont have a yj manual but thats the direction that seems logical. i have seen adj tps before but not on your jeep or mine. i wonder what your min tps is? i know you can twist the shaft that goes through the tb but that would mean somone screwed with it before and your min tps would have been very high if that were the case