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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: jfrabat on July 05, 2013, 09:04:06 AM
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I need your help; I have an odd noise that I can hear coming from below the Jeep (transmission? TC? DS? Pinions?) when I drive at speed (40 mph or more) and I match the engine speed to the Jeep's speed (what I mean is that I cannot hear it when I am accelerating or coasting in N). At this time, my main suspect is the front DS; the rear DS has very little play, but the front I can twist a couple of degrees when I climb under the Jeep. It is certainly not twisting at the U joint, though, so it is not that. My second guess is that the TC chain is stretched, and it is hitting the case. Any other things I should look for? Or any ideas to narrow down the source of the noise? I cannot exactly go under the Jeep at 40 mph, so I cannot hear exactly where it is coming from... So any idea is greatly appreciated!
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do you still have the vacuum disconnect? if yes then the front d/s won't be turning.
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What does it sound like?
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do you still have the vacuum disconnect? if yes then the front d/s won't be turning.
No, that's long gone... I have solid axle, so the front DS is always spinning.
What does it sound like?
It is a rhythmic sound. In all honesty, sounds like a bad bearing or something, but it is difficult to hear, as I have to listen from outside the window (it does not come through the tub; it's not loud enough for that). Kind of a whooom, whooom, whooom, whooom... From what I could tell a couple of nights ago, the rhythm is more related to speed than gear, which kind of leads me to believe it's either the TC or a DS...
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Think I read it on here, is your front drive shaft balanced since they do not come balanced from the factory.
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i hope is not the R&P, that's how mine was making noise when the rear went bad, but for the front i don't know.
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If it sounds like a bearing, I'd check your driveshaft angles. Mine does something similar when I lift off and coast at 65-70.
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Disconecting the front DS would start the process of elimination.
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Think I read it on here, is your front drive shaft balanced since they do not come balanced from the factory.
Yes, I think it is... IIRC, the old one died and I had to replace it, but I'm not 100% sure on that one.
i hope is not the R&P, that's how mine was making noise when the rear went bad, but for the front i don't know.
Well, I do have rings and pinions here in my garage, so if it is, it would just be labor...
If it sounds like a bearing, I'd check your driveshaft angles. Mine does something similar when I lift off and coast at 65-70.
Could also be...
Disconecting the front DS would start the process of elimination.
Actually, I think I will start there. Don't know why I did not think about that myself, but I'll get on it tomorrow!
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sounds similar to when the pinion bearings went out on our zj. wouldn't make noise under power or slowing down but if you coasted or feathered the throttle jsut right it would make the sound as you discribed. but may also be the front ds as others noted.
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If it's the pinion, you should be able to put pressure on the yoke and see if there is any movement.
** I was thinking, you'd probably get the noise in all gears and speeds if it was the pinion bearing.
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Well, unfortunately, I decided (MY decision!) to do some housework last weekend (it's what I REALLY wanted to do; I decided it all by myself because in my house I am the boss - by the way, my wife gave me permission to say that!), so I did not take the front DS out. But I did get around to recording the sound. If I figure out how to attach an MP3 here, I can share with you guys, but I cannot figure it out for the life of me! I did make a video to record the sound as well, so if I can't figure out how to load the FTP, I will have to go that way (although the video part of the video is worthless, at least you'll be able to hear the sound).
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Men always get the last word ...... "yes dear" :lol2:
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Well, unfortunately, I decided (MY decision!) to do some housework last weekend (it's what I REALLY wanted to do; I decided it all by myself because in my house I am the boss - by the way, my wife gave me permission to say that!), so I did not take the front DS out. But I did get around to recording the sound. If I figure out how to attach an MP3 here, I can share with you guys, but I cannot figure it out for the life of me! I did make a video to record the sound as well, so if I can't figure out how to load the FTP, I will have to go that way (although the video part of the video is worthless, at least you'll be able to hear the sound).
You can always upload it to youtube as a video file. There's also Sound Cloud.
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HAd not heard of SoundCloud before, but just opened myself a new account...
OK, here's the link to the recording (https://soundcloud.com/jfrabat/jeep-sound). This is what you are hearing:
I start the recording inside the cab going at about 35~40 mph. I open the door, and put the phone as far under the Jeep as I can reach. I step in the gas in 4th gear, and then let it coast, then step on it again, then let it coast, then take the phone back into the cab and shut off the recording... Any ideas what it could be???
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sounds like a u-joint, but the fact that is not repeating as often as it should for 35mph (sounds slower) makes me think it could be a wheel bearing or axle shaft u-joint
take the d/s out and try again, that can tell you if it's from the front axle or not.
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That rhythmic sound half way through the clip? Kinda hard to tell with all the tire noise and crap being flung there.
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i think that's what he's referring to, it does not sound to be as "quick" as the driveshaft for that speed (but i could be wrong).
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Actually, now that you mention it, a wheel bearing makes more sense; I think Sharp is right; the rhythm is too slow at 35mph to be the DS. I'll try to take the front DS out this weekend (although I may end up going to the beach, so I am not sure I'll have time, even though it is a quick thing to do).
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That rhythmic sound half way through the clip? Kinda hard to tell with all the tire noise and crap being flung there.
Yeah, it starts at about 8" in, and lasts to about 16" in. Then it stops as a coasted, and then it starts again...
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only other thing i can think of is the chain/sprocket in the t-case
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(although I may end up going to the beach, so I am not sure I'll have time, even though it is a quick thing to do).
f*ck the beach, Jeep is more important.
or... you just want to look at topless chicks (i know you're married but that doesn't make them invisible or you blind).
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OK, I took the front DS out, but no change... So I put it back on. I did notice that there was a small leak on the front differential at the bearing (the DS side), and it seems to be spilling a bit when it turns (there were traces of oil on the oil pan, the radiator hose, the power steering pump, and suspension, the frame, etc, and it was all seen in the plane of the U joint). I checked the oil level, and it was a bit low, but nowhere near dry: i did refill it, though. Anyway, I am now stumped, so I am open to suggestions (including my wife's suggestion of just taking it to the mechanic!).
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The next step would be to jack up each wheel and turn it by hand to see if you notice anything strange. When my front bearings went bad you could actually hear then making scraping sounds when turned by hand, a bit more use and they might have failed on the road.
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Also push and tug the wheel.
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if it did the same with the d/s out and you're sure it's in the front then it's from the front axle. suspend the front and check it, you should be able to figure out where is coming from.
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only other thing i can think of is the chain/sprocket in the t-case
That's what I thought.
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That's what I thought.
That shouldn't be turning unless he's in 4WD and with no front driveshaft that eliminates the yoke from turning if he had a LSD or locker.
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Yeah, the TC should not be turning without the front ds, so I am ruling that out. I am thinking more wheel bearing...
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Dropped the Jeep off at the shop today. Asked them to do some regular maintenance work (oil change, grease it up, etc.), look into the odd sound, and fix the front diff retainer, as oil was leaking from there... Should have an estimate tomorrow!
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Well, we found the problem... unfortunately, it is not pretty! Broken ring and pinion on the D35... Don't know how that happened, though, as I have not even gone wheeling! Anyway, I have a spare one somewhere (from when I changed them thinking they were bad, when in fact it was the DS that time), so I'll throw those in. Now I just got to find the rest of the hardware (bearings, etc.)...
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You probably weakened it when wheeling and it broke later on. That happens a lot.
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Time to upgrade to a D44 or Ford 8.8! .... and just sell the spare D35 ring gear.
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Time to upgrade to a D44 or Ford 8.8! .... and just sell the spare D35 ring gear.
That also means a new ARB locker, though... Not exactly the right time for that kind of expenditure.
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Mine broke on the street.
If you have a spare R&P get it back together then save up for a stronger set up. Then sell the D35.
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That also means a new ARB locker, though... Not exactly the right time for that kind of expenditure.
Now that you mention the ARB, here is a plan: :pot: Sell the D35 ARB, axle shafts, and gears. That will get you more than enough $ for a Ford 8.8, which you can run with welded spider gears until you save up for another ARB. I know it's not an easy choice, the downtime is also a factor for a daily driver.
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Now that you mention the ARB, here is a plan: :pot: Sell the D35 ARB, axle shafts, and gears. That will get you more than enough $ for a Ford 8.8, which you can run with welded spider gears until you save up for another ARB. I know it's not an easy choice, the downtime is also a factor for a daily driver.
Keep in mind I live in Panama; D44 and 8.8 are not as common here as they are in the US, so they are not cheap. Japanese pick ups rule the sales here, with the Toyota HiLux being by FAAAAAAR tue #1 seller. I do plan at some point to swap in a complete toyota drivetrain, thpugh
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The 2WD Toyota pick ups had 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern. Not sure what years or models. Width is pretty close too.
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The 2WD Toyota pick ups had 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern. Not sure what years or models. Width is pretty close too.
For now, I am just gonna fix it; I mean I DO have the R&P just laying around, so all I need are the other stuff... Certainly cheaper and faster than an axle swap at this time!
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How about a Toyota 8" from a Tacoma/HiLux?
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For now, I am just gonna fix it; I mean I DO have the R&P just laying around, so all I need are the other stuff... Certainly cheaper and faster than an axle swap at this time!
Like I said earlier. Fix it then look for a upgrade. Because it's only a matter of time before you will be fixing it again. :uhoh: The Toyota stuff is way stronger than the D35!
Then sell your D35.
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How about a Toyota 8" from a Tacoma/HiLux?
That could be; but for now, it's just getting fixed...
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They say a picture is worth a thousand words... Well, here's a few thousand words, then:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/Busted%20D35%20Ring%20and%20Pinion/DSC_0284.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/Busted%20D35%20Ring%20and%20Pinion/DSC_0285.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/Busted%20D35%20Ring%20and%20Pinion/DSC_0286.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/Busted%20D35%20Ring%20and%20Pinion/DSC_0287.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/Busted%20D35%20Ring%20and%20Pinion/DSC_0288.jpg)
Now, I still find it odd that the ring broke at the edge; the pinion is making contact in the center, so I just do not have an explanation for that one... They told me it is likely that the locker was the cause for that type of damage, but I just don't buy it. Anyway, the shop is the authorized ARB dealer in Panama, so they sent pictures to the ARB technician in Australia for his evaluation. One thing is for sure, though... Those magnets on the ARB diff cover sure come in handy!!!
So, what is YOUR opinion on the cause of the edge of the teeth breaking off?
Felipe
PS: Sorry about the crappy photos, but they came off my phone!
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looks like bad setup contact pattern on the drive side, can you take a contact picture of the teeth that are not broken (that's what it looks to be the problem to me from the first picture you posted)? looks like the coast is the one that the wear pattern is centered but the drive side only contacted on the tip of the teeth where it broke, so i absolutely doubt the locker is the issue - if this is the case and you can see the wear only on the tip of the teeth then that's your answer, they broke because the load was applied just there and it was not distributed along the whole length of the tooth. There is also a matter of having the load spread between consequent teeth and if only the tip engages then it's all on that little piece which will eventually give. The pinion broke after due to the missing tips it was stepping on top of the ring. I would also ask them to check if the pinion bearings have play (no preload)
EDIT: isn't this the axle where they grinded off from the pinion as it contacted the locker? if it's the same shop then they did the setup incorrectly, should do it for free this time but the right way, i would ask to see the contact pattern before they close it off and also have them show you that the pinion bearings preload is correct
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EDIT: isn't this the axle where they grinded off from the pinion as it contacted the locker? if it's the same shop then they did the setup incorrectly, should do it for free this time but the right way, i would ask to see the contact pattern before they close it off and also have them show you that the pinion bearings preload is correct
I was wondering the very same thing as I saw the photos.
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i zoomed in on that first picture and i'm sure that's the reason, the whole torque was applied to the very tip of the teeth so those just gave up under load, there's a reason for doing the contact pattern on the teeth centered and preferring the drive side for correct setup (although it looks like the coast side was not setup correctly either) and also do the breakin so it wears the gears to mesh properly and have enough contact to distribute the load. I bet that's exactly what ARB will tell them.
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According to the shop, the contact is in the middle, though I don't see it that way... I did request that I want to see the contact patch test this time around, though, or I was not paying a dime for anything.
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looks like bad setup contact pattern on the drive side, can you take a contact picture of the teeth that are not broken (that's what it looks to be the problem to me from the first picture you posted)? looks like the coast is the one that the wear pattern is centered but the drive side only contacted on the tip of the teeth where it broke, so i absolutely doubt the locker is the issue - if this is the case and you can see the wear only on the tip of the teeth then that's your answer, they broke because the load was applied just there and it was not distributed along the whole length of the tooth. There is also a matter of having the load spread between consequent teeth and if only the tip engages then it's all on that little piece which will eventually give. The pinion broke after due to the missing tips it was stepping on top of the ring. I would also ask them to check if the pinion bearings have play (no preload)
EDIT: isn't this the axle where they grinded off from the pinion as it contacted the locker? if it's the same shop then they did the setup incorrectly, should do it for free this time but the right way, i would ask to see the contact pattern before they close it off and also have them show you that the pinion bearings preload is correct
That was the first thing I noticed as wll. The pattern doesn't look right.
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According to the shop, the contact is in the middle, though I don't see it that way... I did request that I want to see the contact patch test this time around, though, or I was not paying a dime for anything.
take closeup pics of the ring
... and tell them that the drive side matters most (i mean both are important but you always aim for drive side if you can't get both centered)
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also make sure the preload on the bearings is correct, if there is none the contact pattern by moving the ring would be different when under load (as in the pinion would ride up on the ring), if its too much it would bust your bearings and would result in a damaged R&P as well (will bust your bearings either way if not set correctly) - would have been good to check the play on the pinion before they took it apart.
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Well, it's gonna be hard to get pictures now; I imagine they already took the whole thing apart by now!
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Well, it's gonna be hard to get pictures now; I imagine they already took the whole thing apart by now!
Well, you should still be able to see the pattern on the gears with them out. The shop should have been able to say either way if it was a poor setup or not.
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just ask to get the old parts back
you can see even in your phone camera pics that the ring is shiny on outside end of the tips on the drive side but would like to see some better ones
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just ask to get the old parts back
you can see even in your phone camera pics that the ring is shiny on outside end of the tips on the drive side but would like to see some better ones
They SHOULD give me the old parts back, but yes, you can see them, so I can point that out...
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I dropped by today, and they still had the old parts in; I talked to them, and made it clear that the install was wring the last time, so it seems they will not charge me this time for labor (although I still have to pay for parts).
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I dropped by today, and they still had the old parts in; I talked to them, and made it clear that the install was wring the last time, so it seems they will not charge me this time for labor (although I still have to pay for parts).
better than nothing, it's an ok compromise especially where you are.
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better than nothing, it's an ok compromise especially where you are.
That's what I figured; and since I already had the R&P, it's not that bad really...