4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: midnightcwby on March 30, 2006, 11:25:37 AM
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Hey guys, I'd like your opinion on something here. I was cruisin' around EBay yesterday looking for Throttle Body spacers and stumbled across a handful of spacers being offered by a small company I haven't heard of before. They offer their spacers for $35 and allow you to "buy it now" for that price. Anyone using one of these things? They are supposed to be CNC machined from aluminum (there is one out there with big fins right in the path of the airflow made from "high-tech polymers", or plastic). These are CONSIDERABLY cheaper than the AIRAID spacers which seem to go for $79.99+. That seems ridiculous. No way I'm payin' $80 for a chuck of aluminum with a few bolts and some paper gaskets!
So are these cheaper TB spacers the real deal, or are they crap. It seems like it would be pretty hard to screw up making a TB spacer though. Punch a few holes in a block of aluminum... not to tough with the proper equipment.
These guys seem to be the actual manufacturers of this product, not some dealer selling over priced AIRAID units. Any way, if any one has seen these and knows something about them, or even better - has actually bought and used one, please drop a post and let us know if the cheap ones are worth the money.
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i actually have the one with the fins in the middle. ITs as good as a poweraid i think, i dont kno if the fins actually help much tho. The one down side is that it doesnt come with spacers to space the thropttle cable mounts. i used a s**t load of washers.
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I wouldn't have a problem buying a spacer off ebay that's a smooth bore. Smooth bores are actually perfered over the helix fins. Can't really lose for $35.
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That's what I'm thinking too! I'm going to go ahead and get one. They say "Helix Bore" in the description, but I noticed someone posted a negative feedback to the seller saying it wasn't a helix at all. This actually made them seem more appealing to me personally. Now that I'm not worried about spending the $65 for a new rear sway bar, I'm going to get one of these baby's when I'm ready to install my 4.0l TB.
Is a 1" spacer all that's available? I used a 2.5" spacer on my 4.3l V6 I built for my Monty years back, the difference in low-end torque was really amazing! I couldn't fathom how a stupid little 2.5" piece of material made such a dang difference under my 4bbl. After a little research, I began to understand why these things, and other high-rise aftermarket intakes made the extra torque by increasing intake air velocity in the runners. Is 2" too much for these jeeps? At $35, I might just stack 2 and seal 'em up nice. I'll need to source longer bolts and get a little creative with re-locating my cable bracket, but that's no problem. What do you think Jeffy, should I bother?
Anyway, thanks for the quick response man. I get board here at WMU on Tuesdays and Thursdays (I'm on this board from 12:00pm to 5:30pm).
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heck even for $70 it would be a good experiement to try, you can always sell one of them after and get your $35 back.
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yea mine is a smooth bore made out of that hard plastic stuff. if you get the one with the fins in it, to take the fins out all you need is a philips screw driver. It's just my 2 cents but i think it was worth buying, i've had it since before xmas.
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That's true. There is a limit where any more increase in the distance between the throttle body/carb. and the cylinder head actually begins to hurt drivability and warp your power curve in an undesirable way. I just don't know where that line is on these 2.5l's. I guess I would find out when I cross it :twisted:!
On my non-vortec 4.3l I built, 2.5" was probably the largest spacer I could get away with. I already had a marine 6" high rise intake on it. Any more and the carb. would hit the hood! As it was I had to use an after market air filter that was much shorter than stock. This thing had TONS of low to mid range torque, but my top end was definitely suffering. It seemed to start to 'run out of power' the closer to red line I would push it. It was definitely a trade off. I could roast my meats, but when I was racing friends; I had to remember not to let the motor tach out. This began to be a problem because I had a crappy TH200 automatic tranny in it. I toyed with T.V. cable adjustments, but making the tranny shift sooner with the T.V. cable will result in pre-mature wear I was informed by a buddy of mine who worked at the dealership with me as a tranny tech. I just sold it and got another toy, but the principal of adding a spacer to the carb. / Throttle Body was proven for me with that little experiment.
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I bought mine from e-bay for that price, cost more then the 4.0 tb I got. The only thing about these is that it is a 62mm bore and I have a stock 4.0 tb. So it leaves a gap between the intake and tb, not sure if this causes prolblems, but I haven't noticed anything.
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I have one of the cheep smooth bore ones off ebay i think i paid like 22 shiped and it came with everything so i figure it was worth it. I put it on a 4.0 in a ZJ but it didn't seem to help but the automatice and a computer that wouldn't let the motor turn much rpm before shifting combined with My fathers driving style just didn't make it owrth it so it will be going on my 2.3 or one of my other projects. as for the diffent thicknesses , thats something i have been wondering.
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I'm not sure how a 2.5" spacer would react. What you're doing is changing the intake runner length with changes the pulse wave rate/timing. Optimal timing would be to have the pulse wave arrive at the valves right as they open so the pulse will cause a vacuum and draw more air into the combustion chamber.
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:idea: One thing you might look at before you buy two ... is there enough clearence? Some air tubes, including the factory one, don't have a lot of space left between them and the hood after one spacer is installed.
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Another thing to think about is your master cylinder clearance, I flipped my TB out for a 4.0 TB, and have a cold air intake system on it. When I did the flip I found that the clamp holding the intake system was rubbing my master cylinder, in turn had to call a local speed shop and get a different connection hose between the cold air and the TB so that it's just rubber touching it. Turned into a pain in the arse, I won't do a spacer cuz it's just lifting compents up into possibly cause damage to more major things like brakes.
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Skinny, do you have a 1995.5? I seem to remember Jeffy mentioning something about the master cylinder fluid reservoir being different on the '95.5's He said the windshield bumpers on the hood will be rubber, circular shaped bumpers instead of the steel "U" shaped hoops like mine. Just curious, that might change clearance between the master cylinder reservoir and the throttle body intake tube. I'll be sure to take some good measurements and test fits before I 'call er good'. From the sound of it, though, I might be making some modifications to my throttle body to air box tube. I like my air box, so I'll keep that until somebody gives me a REALLY good reason to ditch it. I'll just look at other option to link the TB to the air box. I'd like to have a smooth bore, aluminum tube with silicone elbows and such for vibration isolation and flexibility. That would be nice 8)
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Yupper, I have an extremely late 95, calling for parts is a pain, I have found that half of my stuff is true 95, and the other is 97. So it's always interesting. Looked at the option of pulling the bracket and moving the cylinder back, but the clutch resevoir is in the way. So had to ditch that idea. Considering I work at a repair shop, I am getting at 4.0L from a 98 cherokee for free to rebuild over the next few months, I am gonna see where things end up then.
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I'm not sure how a 2.5" spacer would react. What you're doing is changing the intake runner length with changes the pulse wave rate/timing. Optimal timing would be to have the pulse wave arrive at the valves right as they open so the pulse will cause a vacuum and draw more air into the combustion chamber.
Your not actually changing the runner length, you are mainly just increasing the plenum size... so it goes from non existant to almost existant :lol: Plenum size changes around the powerband also though. A long way down the road i'm going to make a custom intake manifold to get rid of the stock design.
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Well, whatever, it still has more to do with the pulse wave. :lol:
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hehe, i wonder what harmonic and at what rpm range the jeep engineers made the stock manifold perform at. :?:
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Ok, I just bought one of these on EBAY like 3 days ago. I actually got it for $24.00, not $35.00 like I originally saw them on there for. I'll be sure to take close up, detailed pictures of this thing so everybody can see the quality and I'll include measurements made with recently calibrated/certified machinists measuring equipment (thanks to my uncle). This will verify bore diameter, ect. That way everyone else can be totally sure of what they're getting before THEY order it.
I read the sellers reviews, and everyone seemed to be happy with the products they received from this guy, so we'll see.
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I believe the height of that is the same as the Poweraid/Airaid spacer. They started making them right after they came out. I think Hesco is the only one who's thicker.
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I'll be sure to measure it and post. It's advertised as 1". We'll see :D
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Oh, and HESCO is awesome! I love them...
*EDIT*
They arn't the cheapest though... 8)
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Ok, I finally got the spacer in. I don't have pics just yet, but I will tonight. It looks EXACTLY how I hoped it would! Very nice, quality work. All the stuff is included. The instructions are there, but not necessary (who can't figure out how to put this on?!) I just wanted to let every one know who was looking into buying one of these cheap E-BAY spacers know that this seller is TOP NOTCH. I am totally satisfied with my purchase and I can't believe how much cheaper these baby's are than the other ones with all the gimmicks and fins and stuff. Good buy!
The sellers ID is: res069tu
Look him up! He's had plenty of these things when I won my "buy it now" bid. I got mine for $29.85, sweet deal.
Thanks for listening to me ramble, hope this helps ease someone’s mind.
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The spacer is installed and all went as expected. I took pics during the tear down and assembly. I took measurements with my micrometers and my inside telescoping bore gauge. I came up with an over all height of .9825” and I took 2 bore measurements at 90* angles of each other, parallel to the bolt holes. These were 2.439" and 2.441". The average bore diameter would be 2.44" then, just a touch less than 2.5". I found the intake manifold and the stock throttle to be SIGNIFICANTLY smaller in diameter; so much so, in fact, that I didn't have NEARELY enough time allotted to the removal of all of the excess metal that needed to be removed in order to match the intake to the spacer. The pics show just how much metal needs to be removed; I'll post them tomorrow after work, There is a lot more than I'd throw my poor little dermal at! I'll have to get some stones for my die grinder and fire up the compressor.
After a short test drive I have a little feed back to offer. I did indeed notice a difference in throttle response and crispness. In fact, most of the difference I personally felt was at part throttle. I seem to have power sooner in all the gears. By sooner I mean a little bit of a noticeable difference in RPM and a larger difference in throttle angle. It doesn't seem like I have to press the gas as much to maintain speed or accelerate. In fact, I noticed that I don't have to feather the clutch quite as much from a dead stop as well. 5th gear is now useful for me at 35ish. I can accelerate from 35 with out being required to drop to 4th like I was just a little while ago. Full throttle feels a bit more powerful as well. I let her wind out to 5500 through 3ed and it seemed to be pulling faster and stronger (not to mention a little louder!) than before.
As to whether the MPG has increased a point or two, I won't know for a tank to two. I drive 50 miles round trip to work, so a tank doesn't take long to use. I hope I might squeeze an extra few miles out of each tank!
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When you match the port you should try and match each to the gasket.
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That's what I'll use for the template. The pics I took show that the gasket is exactly the same size as the new throttle body spacer. It looks like they used a gasket as the basis for their measurements when they CNC'd these things. Interestingly, the stock gasket that was on the old throttle body is also the same size as the new gaskets; roughly 2.5".
I'll be taking the throttle body off and replacing it with my 4.0L TB soon, so when I have it off, I'll take the time to remove all the material on the intake that needs to be taken off to match.
The intake manifold is interesting. The runners are separated by an aluminum wall all the way up to the plenum. This does present a problem while taking material out of the mating surface, though. The walls are blended into the TB mating surface, so in order to open the hole, you need to be careful while working around these features. I'm wondering what would be to gain by sharpening the edge of these walls so they slice and split the air more efficiently as the air is divided into the runners. Probably won't make a noticeable difference in any power, but extra efficiency helps fuel burn cleaner and more completely usually, so it shouldn't hurt if it's done with care.
This one is of the new spacer
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110002.jpg)
This one shows the difference in size of the stock TB and the new spacer
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110009.jpg)
This one shows the difference in size of the intake and the spacer, alot more of a difference than I was expecting!
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110012.jpg)
Here's another angle
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110011.jpg)
This shows a black painted ring on the intake/TB mating surface. This ring is the overlap of the intake manifold that needs to be removed to match the new spacer (the ring was made using the gasket as a template).
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110017.jpg)
This one shows that the gaskets are the same size as the TB spacer, so the gaskets should be used as a template to make the intake match as well.
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110015.jpg)
another angle of the gasket on the TB spacer...
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110016.jpg)
Here's a pic of the 'adjustment' that had to be made to the stock throttle bracket to make it work with the spacers given... (you'll see a part of the bracket that had to be bent to clear the fuel rail)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110019.jpg)
Here are some finished shots
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110020.jpg)
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(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110021.jpg)
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(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/P4110018.jpg)
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No after pictures of the grinding? And why didn't you clean off the TB a little. LOL! :lol: :wink:
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I haven't yet begun to grind! I didn't clean the outside of the TB because I have my 4.0l TB sitting in my room ready to be cleaned and installed ;) I picked up some carbide grinding bits and some shaped stones from Tractor Supply Co. last night. I have tomorrow off of work, so the grinding will begin first thing in the morning. I'll have to take my time to get the intake right, you can always make a small hole bigger, but you can't make a big hole smaller! Not easily anyway.
On another note... I noticed my 4.0l TB has a venturi formed in the lower portion (intake side). The air tube side is much larger, as is the butterfly valve; Should I have this venture machined out to match the size of my TB spacer or at least chamfered a bit to smooth out the transition?
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I've been thinking about the venturi that is designed into the base of the TB a little more. This venturi seems to match the stock diameter of the intake, or at least I believe it does. I'll be checking that tonight when I get out of class. The only thing this venturi could POSSIBLY be for is the idle bypass outlet port, and if so, why the hell does IT need a venturi?! It just offers a passage way to bypass the throttle valve. There is a portion of the venturi that's missing too. This is where the idle bypass port is. What is the need for a vaccume to be applied to the idle bypass port? it seems there would be more to gain than to loose by removing this bottle neck and then, of course, opening the intake manifold to match the new bore. While I'm in the intake taking out metal, I'm going to shape the "air splitter veins" too. They look like they're there to help direct the incoming air down each runner. I'll take better photos of these and the work I do to them (if I determine I can do anything to them at all!).
Anyway, like I said, what is this venturi for, and can I remove it?!
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you can remove it. its a commen mod for 4.0 crowd and works well. the spacer you have is the same one i have. the stock 4.0 tb is about 1mm bigger than the stock 2.5 intake opening.
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I dont know if it has any other reason, but almost all throttle bodies taper. Increasing velocity into the plenum. If you are going to try and shape it, do not make it have any sharpe edges (knife edging some people call it), Keep them round.
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Good point. I was advised by my uncle to just shape the bottom edge of it so it isn't such a sudden transition. Here is the measurements I took from the spacer itself before I installed it...l
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1/midnightcwby/tbspcrspecs.jpg)
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Sorry for adding to a dead topic, but I thought I'd let you know (for what it's worth) that I bought one of these spacers today. I'll add my two cents about it when it's here/installed.
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Sure, go ahead, this thread isn't that old and more the marrier.
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i have been watching those throttle body spacers on ebay for a while and they seem to be going up in price unfortunately. they are advertised for post '91, and i am wondering if they would work in my '89 2.4L. what do you guys think?
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Nope they won't work. You should have a 3 bolt pattern TB on your 2.5L.
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Ok, I've been running my EBAY tb spacer for a while now in combination with the 4.0l Throttle Body. I noticed a good increase in my range after a few weeks of driving. I can now get just over 220 miles per tank. I used to get between 145 to 190 depending on how fast I drove on the express way and how much wheelin' I've done on the tank. With carefull, easy acceleration and keeping it under 75 on the express way I can get just over 220, actually I've got like 1/16th of a tank but I'm not too trusting of the fuel gauge in this baby, so that's the absolute lowest I ever let it run. If I ran it to empty it would probably get like 230 or so. When I drove like this before the TB spacer and throttle body swap, the best I could ever hope for was like 194 per tank. The tank has a 15gallon standard capacity according to a website I just googled, so that's a jump from 12.93 to 15.33. This is actually a little lower because I don't run my tank to dead empty. I believe I leave like .937 gallons of gas in the tank when I fill up after I let it run down to a 1/16th tank. So, a better estimate would be 190/14 or 13.86mpg before the spacer and tb swap and 220/14 or 15.71mpg. Now, this isn't the best the jeep can get, of course. Lately, even though I've been very carefull with the throttle as much as I can, I still find myself haullin' butt off a stop light before I remember I was trying to get good mileage off this tank! The spacer and TB do make a significant difference in performance, so it's hard not to use it once in a while 8) And it's been STUPID windy over here lately, so my expressway mileage isn't what it should be because the jeep is getting it's @$$ kicked all over the road. It seems like I just can't catch a tail wind no matter what I do! :( So, I'd be willing to bet that if I cut out my in town driving and just stuck to the expressway at 70mph; I should be able to expect 16 or 17mpg max.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/91-03-JEEP-62MM-THROTTLE-BODY-SPACER-2-5L-4-0L-91-03_W0QQitemZ8061367816QQcategoryZ33558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I bought two of these. One for my son's 4.0 and one for my built 2.5. There is a noticable difference once it is installed.
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I just installed my TBS that I got from Ebay, 29.95 shipped. All I can say is
WOW!(http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/crazy/686.gif) I cannot believe the difference for the price. I have a 95 Auto with 31's
and I have always had a problem keeping 55 with a headwind. Not only
will it keep about 60 with a headwind, but I actually hit 70 going the other
way! (kinda scary though) Most of the difference is in the low end as I got
those 31's to make a little noise around a corner, but at 55 I'm at about
1900 RPM so it works out. If anyone is looking for a cheap spacer this kit
was very complete and well machined.
(http://i14.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/18/68/d4_1.JPG)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/91-03-JEEP-62MM-THROTTLE-BODY-SPACER-2-5L-4-0L-91-03_W0QQitemZ240000172104QQcategoryZ33558QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Only problem I ran into was that I had to modify the cable bracket with
my cut-off whell 'cause it wouldn't clear the fuel rail, but two bolts seems
to be holding it just fine.
Just thought I'd add my $0.02 since there's always less written about us
auto owners.
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That's the same exact kit I got. Worked great for me, did you have to "modify" your throttle bracket to get the spacers to install like I did?
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Yes, I had to cut off the rear bolt hole. It's held with two and seems fine.
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There is a company in Searcy, Arkansas that manufactures a spacer like this. Their web site is http://www.aircellfleet.com On the web site I only see where you can order for fleet applications. The local police and local sheriffs office run these on all of their vehicles. They are even making them now for fleets of 18 wheeler type tractor trucks. The company is booming. There was even an article in the local newspaper today about their success.
If they can do it, I'm sure other companies are doing it as well.
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I actually was able to "Adjust" mine with a vice and a sledge hammer, very fine adjustments of course 8) . It fits perfecly now, and is held in place with 2 of the 3 bolts as well.
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As far as TB Spacers a smooth bore works better than one with screw design on the bore walls. Smooth bore gives you better air transitions. The one with the air blades in the middle also have a smooth bore and the air blades utilize all the air coming in as it gives it more velocity and pressure. It gives performance results though the whole RPM range. I currently run a 2.5L Throttle body that has been slighlty bored. It has a 60mm on top side and 52mm on bottom. I believe its taper is giving more air pressure into the manifold, she seems to be working pretty good along with TBS. I am soon going to swap to a stock 4.0L Throttle body and see what happens. My concerns is that I might lose torque. Its wierd I have a custom home brewed air intake in factory box that is adjustable and when I allow to much air in I lose torque at higher speeds. It has to be adjusted just right. Right now I have it pretty fined tuned and my lil 4 banger has plenty torque and top end as it is. Of course I have other mods. To list a few, catback, accel coil, accel wires, NGK plugs gapped at .037. TBS, Heat wrap on custom intake tube. Ram air from removing head light bezels. Magna flow muffler, etc, etc. Does anyone run a 4.0L TB, and what was your results compared to the 2.5L T ?
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Can we refrain from anymore nercroposting please?