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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: stan98tj on November 08, 2013, 05:33:01 PM
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Ok, still planning on doing the VW 1.9 Diesel swap, but I'd like to bounce a few ideas off you folks.
I am running 4.56 gears on 33s with a 3spd auto. HPA has informed me that I MAY have to upsize to 35s in order to bring the RPMs down to where they want them to be. Fair enough, my axles are built up and can handle it.
Here's my question: Once I do the swap, I will have the trany built up at a local guy's shop with beefier components and what not. That leaves the t-case. Because I have an auto, I believe I can actually run a Rubicon case. What I want to know is whether the 4:1 ratio in 4low paired with my 4.56 gears will be "too low." I've been bouncing this around to other folks and some believe I will constantly be dropping in and out of 4low as I move from obstacle to obstacle.
I like the 4low ratio I have now, but I would like to have the 4:1 option. Without doing an Atlas or Klune is it possible to even keep the 4hi/4low ratio we have now and then be able to drop into an "extra" gear geared at 4:1? Would that be a "crawl box." Im a bit uninformed on the whole subject and would hope you guys could clarify.
Thanks!
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not sure if i'm right or wrong but i believe with an auto you don't really need 4:1
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Use this, input your info and see what you want for crawl ratio
http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html
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Seems to it will be a nice combo as long as your trans has the correct spline count for the transfercase and you might have to get a sleeve or different seal from terra so it won't leak. Friend of mine had a 241 installed behind his 3 speed auto and loves it, but it kept leaking oil after pulling the case 3 times the shop caller terra and got a sleave or seal from them and it solved the leaking
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A friend of mine had a 4.0 TJ with auto, normal np231, 4.88 gears and 35's and it worked really well in the rocks. I think the 4.0 might be too low unless you use it only in rocks. Maybe the 4.56 gears would make it better but not sure.
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Seems to it will be a nice combo as long as your trans has the correct spline count for the transfercase and you might have to get a sleeve or different seal from terra so it won't leak. Friend of mine had a 241 installed behind his 3 speed auto and loves it, but it kept leaking oil after pulling the case 3 times the shop caller terra and got a sleave or seal from them and it solved the leaking
So I used the calculator and basically what I got from it is that it will be a bunch slower when In 4low. I figured as much. I don't know enough about the numbers to be able to effectively determine if those ratios will be too low, if I will be forced to drop out of 4low to 4hi to move from obstacle to obstacle on the trail (currently I basically stay in 4low the whole way whether in the rocks or on a muddy track to the next series of rocks). Also want to know if I am trying to climb a slippery surface of rock and need a little wheel speed if those numbers I calculated are too low.
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A friend of mine had a 4.0 TJ with auto, normal np231, 4.88 gears and 35's and it worked really well in the rocks. I think the 4.0 might be too low unless you use it only in rocks. Maybe the 4.56 gears would make it better but not sure.
Im swapping to a diesel 1.9l
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The torque converter will give you about 1.5-2x multiplication of torque when RPM's kept low. Most of the auto's I've seen with Atlas's run 3.6 or 3.8:1
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Ok, now I want to eliminate or expand on the 2nd question I had:
Would it be possible to keep the stock ratios I have in 4hi and 4low and then have a crawl box rated at 4:1? I may be misunderstanding how a crawl box works. Essentially what I'm asking is keep my stock stuff and then have a lever engage and get 4:1 or as close to that as possible. I feel that would give me all the options I would ever need.
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A crawler box aka: doubler is usually a secondary gear box. A Klune V, Mad Rooster, Rubi-Crawler, etc...
The only real consideration/limitation is driveline length.
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A crawler box aka: doubler is usually a secondary gear box. A Klune V, Mad Rooster, Rubi-Crawler, etc...
The only real consideration/limitation is driveline length.
So this would be a twin stick setup. Should I even be considering this or is this far more than what I need? I wouldn't mind a 4:1 "add on" to have if I ever need it.
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Im swapping to a diesel 1.9l
I know, but both are motors with more torque than the 2.5.
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Ok, now I want to eliminate or expand on the 2nd question I had:
Would it be possible to keep the stock ratios I have in 4hi and 4low and then have a crawl box rated at 4:1? I may be misunderstanding how a crawl box works. Essentially what I'm asking is keep my stock stuff and then have a lever engage and get 4:1 or as close to that as possible. I feel that would give me all the options I would ever need.
i think it's pointless with an auto to be honest (to install a doubler/crawl box).
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4 speed Atlas baby, willl do it all move the engine forward so you get more driveshaft length
Truth be told V8 auto Jeeps do well with 3.4 to 4.3 to 1 transfercases even in low range you can make enough wheel speed, trans will still shift to second or third
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4 speed Atlas baby, willl do it all move the engine forward so you get more driveshaft length
Truth be told V8 auto Jeeps do well with 3.4 to 4.3 to 1 transfercases even in low range you can make enough wheel speed, trans will still shift to second or third
I feel like the atlas or Klune is way more than I need. I got a buddy with a klune, something like 9.8:1 ratio. Very cool, but I don't think I need anything to be doing any front digs with.
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So this would be a twin stick setup. Should I even be considering this or is this far more than what I need? I wouldn't mind a 4:1 "add on" to have if I ever need it.
Twin stick usually means two levers on the transfer case, like on an Atlas or D300 set up that way.
A doubler would be great for the gearing options. I really enjoy having that flexibility. On some trails the 2.72 TC ratio is just right and 4:1 is too low.
But based on what I've seen the 2.72:1 would work great for you and would be the less expensive way to go.
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So this would be a twin stick setup. Should I even be considering this or is this far more than what I need? I wouldn't mind a 4:1 "add on" to have if I ever need it.
Yes and no. A true twin-stick has nothing to do with the a doubler box. You have two sticks on the transfer case. One stick controls the Front; Hi-N-Lo and one stick is Rear; Hi-N-Lo instead of having one stick control both 2, 4Hi, N, 4 Lo. If you had the stock transfer case that's one stick and a doubler has one stick, you'd technically have two sticks as well but that's not what most people call twin-stick.
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Run the Jeep with 35's, wheel it, do the engine swap, wheel it find the deficiencies, wheel a little more hardcore and eventually you will find what works for ya.
When you find trails you cannot do due to the trans getting to hot from running at stall speed while not going no where it's time for deeper gearing in lo range. That or you are constantly riding the brakes since your compatriots have a better crawl ratio. Klune is a good lil box, but not a fan off it. People with those tend to hold everybody up crawling at to low a speed or they have hard time figuring out what gear they should run. lots of those are pared with a old Bronco transfercase which is prone to breaking under hi torque. Seen one of those go boom when we were having fun in AZ
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Twin stick usually means two levers on the transfer case, like on an Atlas or D300 set up that way.
A doubler would be great for the gearing options. I really enjoy having that flexibility. On some trails the 2.72 TC ratio is just right and 4:1 is too low.
But based on what I've seen the 2.72:1 would work great for you and would be the less expensive way to go.
What setup do you have?
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What setup do you have?
Atlas 4 speed with 4.3 and 2.72 and the ax5.
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I would sweat the t-case later, after you wheel the new engine with the stock 2.72 case. Changing the tcase out is easy enough later on.
Most Rubi's I've wheeled with were geared too low with 4:1 for general trail riding, had a lot of difficulty with enough wheel speed for most hill climbs.
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I would sweat the t-case later, after you wheel the new engine with the stock 2.72 case. Changing the tcase out is easy enough later on.
Most Rubi's I've wheeled with were geared too low with 4:1 for general trail riding, had a lot of difficulty with enough wheel speed for most hill climbs.
exactly what I was concerned about. Figured it was great for the rocks, but out here we do have regular forested trails with dirt/muddy climbs along with rocks.
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What are my options if I want to keep my stock ratios and still have an option for a lower gear? Crawl box? Do they adapt to my SYE? Will I even have enough room back there?
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What are my options if I want to keep my stock ratios and still have an option for a lower gear? Crawl box? Do they adapt to my SYE? Will I even have enough room back there?
The doubled goes between the transmission and transfer case. You'll obviously need new driveshafts as the length will change for both.
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Which doesn't leave much rear driveshaft length, unless you do a 231/300 doubler. Some have moved the 4banger engine forward to accommodate a range box in front of the transfer case.
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What are my options if I want to keep my stock ratios and still have an option for a lower gear? Crawl box? Do they adapt to my SYE? Will I even have enough room back there?
One way would be to get a 4 speed manual transmission with a granny low 1st gear.
A Klune with a d300 would be another way, or a 4 speed Atlas.
A klune with the NP231 with a super short SYE would probably give you enough driveshaft length too.
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Which doesn't leave much rear driveshaft length, unless you do a 231/300 doubler. Some have moved the 4banger engine forward to accommodate a range box in front of the transfer case.
The Klune V and a 231 with a SYE can still fit. It's pretty short though. A Slim SYE would be better. You can also move the engine forward 4-6" BUT you'll have to cut a new transmission hole and bend and extend the shifter as it will come up under the dash now.
(http://www.high-impact.net/mht43821.jpg)(http://www.high-impact.net/mht43841.jpg)
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One way would be to get a 4 speed manual transmission with a granny low 1st gear.
A Klune with a d300 would be another way, or a 4 speed Atlas.
A klune with the NP231 with a super short SYE would probably give you enough driveshaft length too.
The atlas would be the entire t-case, right? My understanding of the Atlas was that it was 1:1 and then another ratio of your choosing. Does the 4spd allow for multiple ratios? If so, perhaps it would be a good option as I've heard it's not much bigger than the stock t-case
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my doubler/D300 combo came to a d/s length of 18'' or so, a 231 with a klune would probably result in something like 11'' or 12'' which i think it's ridiculously short (i honestly don't think it will work but i never tried so i could be wrong.)
if i were to do it again I would get the atlas 4 speed for the syncros in the t-case (you can shift when rolling).
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The atlas would be the entire t-case, right? My understanding of the Atlas was that it was 1:1 and then another ratio of your choosing. Does the 4spd allow for multiple ratios? If so, perhaps it would be a good option as I've heard it's not much bigger than the stock t-case
With the 4 speed Atlas the rear DS will have to be shortened about 2 inches. You get a 1:1 ratio in high, a 2.72:1 ratio with the doubler part, a ratio of your choosing in the Atlas case (4.3:1 in mine) and you can run in low low also, about 11.7:1 in my setup.
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a 2.72:1 ratio with the doubler part,
this is the part I'm not understanding. I see the atlas has two sticks, one for front axle and one for rear, correct? THese two sticks have a high and low range, correct? So if I am correct up until here, the high range would be 1:1, and the low range would be of your choosing, correct? But you mentioned it also has a 2.72:1, so how does that get engaged? Forgive me for all the questions, I'm just trying to fully grasp all the options available to me and am more than appreciative in the fact that I can talk to folks who actually run these systems...
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this is the part I'm not understanding. I see the atlas has two sticks, one for front axle and one for rear, correct? THese two sticks have a high and low range, correct? So if I am correct up until here, the high range would be 1:1, and the low range would be of your choosing, correct? But you mentioned it also has a 2.72:1, so how does that get engaged? Forgive me for all the questions, I'm just trying to fully grasp all the options available to me and am more than appreciative in the fact that I can talk to folks who actually run these systems...
All correct.
The 2.72 gets engaged with a third lever. Some pics are on my build thread.
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with a twin stick t-case (forget about the doubler for now) you have a shifter for the front and one for the rear outputs (that go to the driveshaft yokes for each axle) - with these you can engage either front or rear, high or low independently for each axle, which means you can have rear hi (known with a regular 231 as 2wd or rear wheel drive hi), rear low (2wd still), front hi (front wheel drive) and front low. You would also have the ability to go 4wd hi and low just like with the 231. The doubler (crawl box) has it's own lever, what it does is to reduce the gear ratio between the trans and t-case, that means that when engaged would apply to whatever your t-case is set to (rwd hi/lo, fwd hi/lo or 4wd hi/lo), so if you have a t-case with a 4:1 ratio and a crawl box at 2.6:1 then when in 2wd hi with the dobler in low your combined ratio (doubler and crawl box) would be 2.6:1, if you engage low on the t-case you get to 10.4:1, you disengage the doubler you'll be at 4:1, then put the t-case back in hi and you're bact at 1:1.
there's some info and pics on the shifters i made (3 of them) in my Doubler (crawl box) build thread as well as when i did my NV3550+D300 install in the member's projects section (which had twin sticks at the time for front/rear independently).
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You know, the more I read about it, the more the Atlas seems like a very viable option.
I just got off the phone with them and we talked a bit about their 4spd.
Here are some points:
Can still shift on the fly to 4hi
4 ratios are, 1:1, 2.72:1, 3.8:1, and 10.3:1
Will only shorten the length of the rear shaft by 2 inches, although I'll need a longer front shaft.
All in all, I get to keep my stock ratios and gain 2 low ratios.
Neale, I noticed the ratios you listed were a bit different (4.3:1 and 11.7:1???) if I remember. How did you get them to provide those gears?
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You know, the more I read about it, the more the Atlas seems like a very viable option.
I just got off the phone with them and we talked a bit about their 4spd.
Here are some points:
Can still shift on the fly to 4hi
4 ratios are, 1:1, 2.72:1, 3.8:1, and 10.3:1
Will only shorten the length of the rear shaft by 2 inches, although I'll need a longer front shaft.
All in all, I get to keep my stock ratios and gain 2 low ratios.
Neale, I noticed the ratios you listed were a bit different (4.3:1 and 11.7:1???) if I remember. How did you get them to provide those gears?
You didn't talk to them about the different options available? http://www.advanceadapters.com/add_to_cart.php
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You didn't talk to them about the different options available? http://www.advanceadapters.com/add_to_cart.php
Nothing is getting "added to cart" until this spring :)
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:Nothing is getting "added to cart" until this spring :)
You can go to their site and configure the transfer case. You will see there are many options that you probably haven't even considered... http://www.advanceadapters.com/products/atlas4--atlas-4-speed-transfer-case/
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You can go to their site and configure the transfer case. You will see there are many options that you probably haven't even considered... http://www.advanceadapters.com/products/atlas4--atlas-4-speed-transfer-case/
Very cool.
I can't remember, are you running an Atlas as well, Jeffy?
At any rate, I think this is probably what I'm going to get.
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Very cool.
I can't remember, are you running an Atlas as well, Jeffy?
At any rate, I think this is probably what I'm going to get.
No, but I was very close to buying one. Things changed and I went with a SYE instead to get the Jeep back up and running. There's a wait for any of the Atlas's unless you find a shop who's got cases and gears in stock.
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There's a wait for any of the Atlas's unless you find a shop who's got cases and gears in stock.
2 weeks or so according to the Advanced Adapter rep.
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You know, the more I read about it, the more the Atlas seems like a very viable option.
I just got off the phone with them and we talked a bit about their 4spd.
Here are some points:
Can still shift on the fly to 4hi
4 ratios are, 1:1, 2.72:1, 3.8:1, and 10.3:1
Will only shorten the length of the rear shaft by 2 inches, although I'll need a longer front shaft.
All in all, I get to keep my stock ratios and gain 2 low ratios.
Neale, I noticed the ratios you listed were a bit different (4.3:1 and 11.7:1???) if I remember. How did you get them to provide those gears?
4.3 is better than 3.8 with the AX5. Not sure what would be better with the auto. It could be they have the 3.8 in stock and you might have to wait more for other ratios, they seem to push the 3.8.
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4.3 is better than 3.8 with the AX5. Not sure what would be better with the auto. It could be they have the 3.8 in stock and you might have to wait more for other ratios, they seem to push the 3.8.
The torque converter multiPlies so I should be good with 3.8, right?
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:The torque converter multiPlies so I should be good with 3.8, right?
3.8 with an automatic will be plenty low for the slowest, most technical crawling. Going too low with an automatic leads to other issues like being unable to stop the Jeep with the brakes unless you put it in neutral. Everything has a fix but one thing leads to another and more spending.
It's a great TC, no complaints. It did have an o-ring leak but it was easy to fix and Advance Adapters sent me the o-rings free of charge.
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3.8 with an automatic will be plenty low for the slowest, most technical crawling. Going too low with an automatic leads to other issues like being unable to stop the Jeep with the brakes unless you put it in neutral. Everything has a fix but one thing leads to another and more spending.
It's a great TC, no complaints. It did have an o-ring leak but it was easy to fix and Advance Adapters sent me the o-rings free of charge.
Speaking of brakes, I'll have to upgrade for the 35s. Running disks all around, but def want to make sure I can stop.
Think I'll have an issue stopping in the lowest setting (10:1)?
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you don't need 10:1 unless you go with a manual, i would just get a 2 speed atlas if i were you, 4:1 would be plenty for anything with your transmission imo
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At 10:1 it will be a chore to stop it when the idle is up a bit.
somewhere around 4 to 1 seems to work real well with auto's