4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: JC93YJ on September 25, 2016, 07:19:47 PM
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I'm still considering my options for a rebuild of my 2.5 and I've seen some chatter from years ago about a possible 2.5 stroker. From what I've seen on the forum, Titan offered a 2.7 stroker (not anymore), and two members built strokers with custom crankshafts and had a budget I could only dream of. My question is, has anyone been successful in building a streetable, reliable 2.5 stroker either using a crank and rods from a different engine or affordable custom parts (offset ground crankshaft, if so, what were the specs used)? I know 505 Performance makes a stroker kit, but I've read enough horror stories and talked to people about them to know to stay as far away from them as possible. Thanks.
Joe
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For the money and effort, you're better off dropping in a 4.0L. The only strokers I've ever come across have been race engines.
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Thanks Jeffy. That's what I was finding, too. But I didn't know if there was some mystical combination of parts that would make it work like with the 258 and 4.0. Back to turboing it.
Joe
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Thanks Jeffy. That's what I was finding, too. But I didn't know if there was some mystical combination of parts that would make it work like with the 258 and 4.0. Back to turboing it.
Joe
The nice thing about a 4.0L is that you can reuse a lot of parts. All of the accessories will transfer over. You can reuse the motor mounts as well. I'll have to remember to use 2.5L mounts but that's not a big deal. Exhaust should bolt right up as well.
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I've driven a 4.0L YJ and while an improvement over the 2.5, it seems like a lot of time and money for not a lot of gain, especially since people charge a premium for Jeep parts where I live. It would be cheaper to just swap in a small block Chevy, but then everything else has to get upgraded, and this is my only car for now. I've been looking into a Kubota four cylinder diesel, which is lighter than the 2.5 and makes ridiculous power for it's size when you add a turbo and crank it up to run on 20psi, but that's a whole different story.
Joe
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Well, it's a lot easier to swap in a 4.0L, If you have a parts vehicle, you can do it in a weekend. A complete YJ is cheap. The only downside is that thwy will have a lot of miles on them but then you could do a 4.6-4.8L stroker. The only fabrication would be to move the horns on the frame. If you use a parts Jeep, you can sell everything off and recoup a bunch of it.
The only way a V8 would be cheaper is if you can fabricate and have the time to do so. Also, you'd be looking at a Carb'ed or TBI V8. Something like a 5.3L or better yet a 6.0L would cost way more then a running 4.0L YJ (whole Jeep). Then you're going to have to figure out what motor mounts to use, transmission, transfer case and axles. Radiator, wiring harness, gauges, adapters and all the small stuff gets expensive cast. You're looking at around $500 for an engine to transmission adapter and then another $500 for a transmission to transfer case adapter if you don't use a mated pair. I wouldn't even bother with a 350 though. You might as well go with a 383 stroker at that point so you're in the same neighborhood as an LS motor.
If you live in a state with emission testing you can run into more complications. Federal Law doesn't want to you install an engine that's not DOT. So you can get in trouble if the police really wants to get technical. ie., 4BT and Kubota diesels...
I've only seem Kubota's in Flatfenders. There was a guy who installed one in a TJ but it was slow. It's not as easy swap either.
While it's considered 'boring', a 4.0L is dependable and easy to work on. Not to mention, can just about be bolt-in. Everyone wants to be different and exotic though.
If you want to be different then do a SC or Turbo on your 2.5L. It's still a lot of work though.
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I actually just found a bunch of 4.0s in a junkyard by my house, as well as a TBI 2.5, so I have to consider my options now. It's funny you mentioned emissions, Jersey just made my Jeep emissions exempt a few months ago, which is why I green lit diesels again :smokes: Too bad I can't find one for the life of me that I can afford.
I remember reading somewhere that there was a set of mounts that allowed you to put a 4.0 in a 2.5 frame without moving the frame mounts. Does anyone know if those actually exist? Those would make life really easy since I can't weld at the moment, and I don't know anyone that welds good enough to weld on engine mounts for me (think really nasty booger welds).
Joe
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I actually just found a bunch of 4.0s in a junkyard by my house, as well as a TBI 2.5, so I have to consider my options now. It's funny you mentioned emissions, Jersey just made my Jeep emissions exempt a few months ago, which is why I green lit diesels again :smokes: Too bad I can't find one for the life of me that I can afford.
I remember reading somewhere that there was a set of mounts that allowed you to put a 4.0 in a 2.5 frame without moving the frame mounts. Does anyone know if those actually exist? Those would make life really easy since I can't weld at the moment, and I don't know anyone that welds good enough to weld on engine mounts for me (think really nasty booger welds).
Joe
Hmm, never heard of those. I've only heard od bolt-on mounts for SBC conversions. It's easy enough to just cut the frame mounts off and move them forward. Then you can reuse the 2.5L mounts and not have to find 4.0L tabs as well as mounts and brackets. If you can't weld then tack it and string the tack's together.
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Yeah, not sure if they were ever actually made or an idea that went viral. I know Transdapt makes a crossmember for a 350 and an automatic, and they make mounts to put an LS in a car or truck with a 350, so I thought about using the crossmember and the offset mounts to bolt in an LS and then slide it back a bit so the trans isn't super far from it's original location and then mess with the trans mount and gain some rear driveshaft, but I have yet to give Transdapt a call to see if that would all work. I was kind of hoping the diesel would pan out, but I can't find any, so I'm back to either a turbo 2.5 or an LS. I might give Transdapt a call in the morning and see if all the mounts will work. If so, maybe bolt in LS. That's like two and a half 2.5s, so it wouldn't be total blasphemy....right? :stick:
Joe
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Well, I think if you're not going to be able to weld, installing an LS might be difficult. You're probably looking at $5000-7000 on just the engine if you're looking at a 4.8L or a 5.3L. A 6.0L is going to be around $8-9000. LS stuff gets expensive quick.
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Yeah, I'm hoping to find a used one. I know I can find one, it's just a matter of finding one that doesn't have a million miles on it. No matter what I do though, the engine is going to be used that I do a rebuild on to keep costs down. I just don't have the money to buy a crate motor, as much as I would love to.
Joe
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Yeah, I'm hoping to find a used one. I know I can find one, it's just a matter of finding one that doesn't have a million miles on it. No matter what I do though, the engine is going to be used that I do a rebuild on to keep costs down. I just don't have the money to buy a crate motor, as much as I would love to.
Joe
Those are used LS prices. :roflol:
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Surprisingly, not around here. I can get one for $1500 with computer amd harness. They're only 5.3 Vortecs, but that's more than enough for me. I haven't seen any late model Camaro's or Cadillac's in the wrecking yards around here. I did find a 5.7 Hemi, but I couldn't jump on it fast enough. Funny how I can get a V8 complete with computer and harness for less than a 2.5 or 4.0 long block. And a 4.0 is cheaper than a 2.5. Go figure. :digdeeper:
Joe
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I realize this thread has gone way off the rails, but in the spirit of asking a million questions and constantly changing my mind, what about a GM Ecotec? Someone was telling me about them today and I did a little research and apparently, they make good power and bolt right to an AX15 and are ridiculously light. And they're cheap as hell, I'm finding them for $500-$600 on Craigslist just doing a quick search. I'm assuming the wiring is similar to an LS, being a GM product, but I also found standalone harnesses and people on other forums have all the parts list to mate the engine to an AX15. This seems in line with my original idea of just turboing my 2.5, but much cheaper, and I lose some weight up front and gain more power than the 2.5 could ever make and gain some fuel economy and tunability with the OBDII system. Just taking a shot in the dark here.
Joe
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GM uses Ecotec on several engines. Ecotec3 include the 4.8L, 5.3L and 6.2L Ecotec 2 is the 4 cylinders but really the only one to look at is the 2.0 Liter Turbo I4 LTG that was used in the Cadillac ATS, Chevy Malibu and Chevy Camaro.
You will need a bellhousing from a Saturn Sky or Pontiac Solstice for it to work though. You're also going to be fabricating a lot of stuff which takes you back to your other question...
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Based on what I've read, the L61 (pre 2006) 2.2L is also pretty good. I know the Saturn Sky bellhousing allows the AX15 to bolt up, and then use a 9 inch clutch from an 84 5 speed four cylinder Camaro to make all that work, I just need to make block side mounts because in theory, the frame mounts should work, if my eyeball quick head calculations are somewhat right, which I can get my dad to weld up for me, and use a standalone harness and tuned ECM to get it running in the Jeep and then use the Jeep computer to run the speedometer and other gauges and then either get a tach emulator or something to measure RPM, or do what the LS guys do (still foggy on that, kind of flying by the seat of my pants right now). Plumbing and cooling shouldn't be an issue. The power steering pump is run off the back of the head on the intake cam, so I'll either go with manual steering (not really an issue since I'll only be running 31s at most), or try and find a rumored power steering pump that mounts where the a/c compressor goes and have lines made up. There are turbo kits out there, so I'll either get an aftermarket kit or an OEM kit if I can find one, or just run NA to start with and then save my pennies to step up to a turbo and a tune, which shouldn't be an issue because it's GM EFI and all the Camaro's around here have a chip or a tune. The main thing that worries me is the wiring, but I think I'm either going to wire up the standalone to run the bare essentials and try and make the Jeep gauges work with the stock computer, or look into LS swap wiring and see how they merge the two harnesses. I think they run both computers, or am I wrong? That would be my plan of attack, as these motors are really really cheap. I found a supercharger version that was in a Cobalt for $500 that was the longblock and manifolds, and then a L61 with everything minus accessories but included the harness for $350. Haven't called the junkyards yet, but I've seen a ton of Saturns and Chevy sedans, so I think this would be a viable option.
Joe
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For 170hp/160ft-tq, it isn't worth it. That's a lot of work to just be marginally better then the 2.5L and you'll be hurting on low end torque where most of your driving will be. Peak torque is 6300 RPM.
An LTG will have close to 300 ft-lbs at 3000 RPM and that's pretty much flat till 5000RPM. Not to mention 272 hp at 5500RPM.
You'd be better off going with a plain jane LO5 with 195hp without even trying and torque up the wazoo at low RPM. If you want to spend more but keep it cheap an LS 3.8L will make 270 hp stock. There's a lot more aftermarket for the SBC and LS's then anything else out there and it's relatively inexpensive.
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Yeah, good point. I'm going to keep looking around. I haven't quite decided on what I want to do 100% yet, kind of a "whatever I can get a halfway decent deal on that is withing my realm of possibility". I did find someone that can weld pretty well, so bigger fabrication isn't too big of a problem anymore.
Joe
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After years of dinking around with my 2.5 I'm done with Chrysler ECU driven engines.. Even with all the trick parts the freeking ECU wont let the power out.. Piggybacks just don't work you get power or mileage but cant have both. I borrowed a stand alone Motec and it worked awesome but still I was stuck at about 160 HP if I wanted it to get by the smog station.
The cost of engines has dropped huge from what I can tell out of wrecked rigs, a low mileage LQ4 with transmission and a novac adapter kit is < 3K Heck I can buy a LQ9 with a 6L80E for < 2500 bucks. .
Shops don't want anything to do with engine swaps any more.. Heck I had a Honda blow a head gasket and cant find a shop to just r&r the original with a complete motor from a wreck for under 3000 bucks! Novac has a lot of good info about the motor swaps and from watching two friends do it, the weld in standard mounts are the way to go. The cross member style just creates other problems.
Good luck !
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After years of dinking around with my 2.5 I'm done with Chrysler ECU driven engines.. Even with all the trick parts the freeking ECU wont let the power out.. Piggybacks just don't work you get power or mileage but cant have both. I borrowed a stand alone Motec and it worked awesome but still I was stuck at about 160 HP if I wanted it to get by the smog station.
The cost of engines has dropped huge from what I can tell out of wrecked rigs, a low mileage LQ4 with transmission and a novac adapter kit is < 3K Heck I can buy a LQ9 with a 6L80E for < 2500 bucks. .
Shops don't want anything to do with engine swaps any more.. Heck I had a Honda blow a head gasket and cant find a shop to just r&r the original with a complete motor from a wreck for under 3000 bucks! Novac has a lot of good info about the motor swaps and from watching two friends do it, the weld in standard mounts are the way to go. The cross member style just creates other problems.
Good luck !
That kinda goes for any Pre or ODBI computer controlled engine. As much as it pains me to say, swapping engines is a while lot easier then modifying. The 2.5L base HP with MPFI is 125 hp and 139 ft-lbs. A crate stock L05 makes around 210 hp and 300 lbs-ft. Tough to get those numbers from a 2.5L without a power adder and a lot of shop time.
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Yep. and based on the amount of work to swap, I'm going big.
I figure a VVT/VVD LQ9 is going to net me about 25 MPG on the highway..
and north of 375HP.. Owned the jeep since new, had it longer than my college
age daughter :biggrin: Going to have my ashes dumped in the front seat
and have it crushed to coffin size....
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If I had the money, I'd probably do a 345 Hemi crate engine swap. Or maybe if Cummins would get off their stool and starts making 2.8L kits....
I've owned my Jeep since new as well. Actually, it was my "first car."
Why not do it like in the movie 'Used Cars'. Dig a pit and roll the car in...
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I've decided to go in a completely different direction. I've been planning this project for quite a while and had it on the back burner the entire time I was exploring different options. I've pulled the trigger on a motor already, and I'm beginning to gather parts. Here's a sneak peak at it. A build thread will follow shortly. Thanks for all the input.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ6W3fbGfik
Joe
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I know the O/P already decided to go a certain way, but this is for 'the restofus'; a buddy wanted to warm-up his 2.5L and went the 'PintoBeans' way. Older guys will know what I'm talking about (guugle ESSLINGER Hydraulics). He shaved the heads, put in a TB spacer, and Chevy rocker arms with a longer ratio. (Sorry I forget the motor they came out of.) If you've got extra bucks, Yella-Terra in OZ has a $500+ kit with rollers. He put on a Banks header and took it off because you loose lowend torque and 'drivability'. Stock exhaust will work fine because it's made to flow 4.0L. Headers on 4-bangers and you have to live above the 3500rpm mark.
I know the O/P has a YJ, but anyone wanting to put a 4.0 or 4.3 stroker in a TJ better watch. They were nice enough to give us wussy axles in the TJ 2.5L.
Back to my buddy; dyno'd 220hp. That's at the wheels. Versus 85-115 at the crank.
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http://www.shop.505performance.com/category.sc?categoryId=40
They evidently do it.. :thumbsup: Just cubic $$
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http://www.shop.505performance.com/category.sc?categoryId=40
They evidently do it.. :thumbsup: Just cubic $$
For the money, you'd be better off doing a TBI 350 swap or a stroker 383 while you're at it. The swap would be more dependable and make more power. You wouldn't have to run Premium either.
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Oh definatley,, Average price for a 6.0 LQ4/LQ9 is < 3500 now unless its a really low miler...
Heck I can get a newer (2015) gen 4 4.3 v6 with trans and tcase for < 3500. Gives you 300+ HP and it works with the tuning packs for the LS series.
Hava e local guy that will build the harness for like 300 bucks, then convert to electrical analog gages and I'm done!
Have welder and such for the mounts so that parts just work..