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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: FlyersPh9 on December 02, 2006, 08:11:05 PM
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I am only 16 going on 17 years old. I have a 1991 Jeep wranger (4 cyl). Today I went offroading for the first time ever with 2 friends of mine. Ever since I bought my Jeep I have always wanted to lift it 4" with 33" tires but my dad always says "The 4 cyl. can't pull 33" tires very well" or "You don't have enough money" or "Its not road safe".
I have about $2,000 in my bank account and about $400 in my safe upstairs. I owe my parents $400 for the wheels I bought 3 weeks ago so that leaves me with about $2,000. Then I subtract about $500 for tires leaving me with $1500. Then subtract about $450 for gasoline until about June leaving me with about $1000. My parents agreed to buy me the lift kit for either XMAS or my birthday in March, and I have no job durring the winter season, only in the summer. After all of that, subtract insurance and other small things like the crap that I buy and I'd say I have about $600 left. My dad keeps saying that I will run out but I don't think so...he says "If you break something on your jeep, $600 is nothing." :(
Today me and my 2 friends went off roading. My one friend had a 4" lift with 33" tires on a YJ (I'm not sure of what year, but it wasn't a 1992 or higher due to the slanted roll cage). His Jeep pulled fine and I think it was perfectly good.
Lastly, I can't see how a 4" lift and 33" tires is "not road safe". If it wasn't, it would be illegal. Also, a Jeep isn't safe from the day you buy it due to the high point in gravity!
So, all in all, could someone give me some tips to convince my dad otherwise. I need to convince him soon (like, in under 5,000 miles from now :lol: because my tires are nearing bald)
Thanks and yes, I am new to the forums! :D Hello everyone! :wink:
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Honestly, if you're going to 33's you're going to need to change out the gearing to at least 4.56's. You're going to have to add this to the cost of everything else. Regearing isn't a cheap thing to do for someone on your budget. 33's on stock gears can make that Jeep of yours a real dog on the highway. Also, if you're running a d35 in the rear you're going to end up having problems if you go off road with those 33's.
These are just some of the things you need to take into consideration. I'm sure others will have some advice for you also. Everyone here is really knowledgeable so if you're offered advice take it into consideration.
Welcome to 4bangerjp. :)
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Here's my 2 cents. I did it sorta backwards. When I was 16 I went with a 3" lift and 32's. Stock gears. Strength-wise it shouldn't be a problem as long as it's not locked. 32-33" tires will drop the performance a bit but then it won't get you a ticket. :lol: Up to 50mph it should be good. It should be able to do 65mph. Unless you run the RPM's up in 4th, you could get it up to 70+.
This is how MANY first timers run on the Rubicon. Not I wouldn't go too cheap on the suspension. For 33's you'll really want 4-4.5" lift. Rubicon Express makes a decent kit although I haven't ridden on their 4" YJ lift. The better kit would be the 4.5" but that's getting into a bit more. You could go with a 1" body lift, 2.5" lift and go with TJ flares but that would probably cost around $7-800.
Now the correct way to run 33's would be to regear to 4.88's (if you have a manual although I'd still probably go 4.88's with a auto too.) Then if you add a locker, you'll have to drive a bit easier and not go too hard on the throttle. The D35 is hit & miss. Some break easily while others don't. You can get hardened axle shafts which would give you anywhere from 15-20% increase in strength. Although by the time you're wanting more, you should have an idea on the path you'll need to take and what it will cost.
A lifted Jeep is no less safe then any other car or truck. It will drive different but then you'll get used to it and know how to adjust your driving style to take advantage of it. You'll know how hard you can turn, when you need to shift and how to take advantage of momentum.
Now if you wanted to hold off on a lift and get good as a driver, then I'd suggest running some 31's and maybe doing some TJ flares. Disconnects for the swaybars and remove the trackbars. Hi-lift and a hook-less tow strap. A first-aid kit, fire extinguisher and a CB. Yeah it won't look as cool but it will probably get you just as far but more importantly, get you back home.
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but my dad always says "The 4 cyl. can't pull 33" tires very well" or "You don't have enough money" or "Its not road safe".
There's a lot of truth to what your Dad is saying, which is kind of too bad. Not the part about "its not road safe" - bigger tires will likely just decrease the effectiveness of your brake system and your stopping distances will likely increase. But, that's just something a lifted jeep driver factors in when he's driving to stay safe on the road. However, you are also going to have a higher center of gravity in a lifted Jeep which could make it more likely to tip in collision avoidance maneuvers. So, you have to factor that it in when you are driving it as well. I'd personally be a little more comfortable driving such a lifted Jeep after I had about 10-20 years driving experience versus 2-3 years.
Maybe you want the big tires because the girls like it or you don't want to get shown up by your friend(s) with the 33s. Who can blame you? :D But, your friend's YJ with 33s is a "paper tiger" off-road unless it is set up properly - that takes an investment which it doesn't sound like the guy has made.
If you are buying 33s and a lift for serious off-road use, you'll be digging yourself in to a pretty deep money-pit to do it right - I, myself, could reasonably see blowing $10,000 in parts and labor setting my old YJ4 up for 33s for off-road use (new rear axle, regear both axles, lift, tires, wheels, brakelines, SYE, full armor, driver-adjustable or carrier-replacement lockers front and rear, winch).
Personally, in your case, I'd just install front and rear autolockers, take out the trackbars and install sway bar discos in your YJ and, then, just wheel the living hell out of your old, stock YJ jeep. That's frigging priceless fun and cheap too :lol: If you did the work yourself, this might run you only $600.
If you need new tires, go with 31s/steel wheels - you can fit those 31s in the wells with just a 1 inch body/shackle lift (costs maybe $250) in a YJ - the smaller tires are less likely to contribute to an axle snap, off-road. The aforementioned wheel/tire/lift would run you less than $1000 if you do the work yourself. This combo is easier for your engine to pull, cheaper to install, safer for your axles, & probably doesn't necessitate regearing or an axle swap.
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4 inches and 33's will not mix well. you will rub alot, unless you do a lot of fender trimming, and new rims too.i am 17 got my jeep last year, i bought the black diamond lift for $850, then bought a set of used tires and rims (31's) for about $450. so honestly for tires and lift you looking at at least a grand +. Only problem i have now is when i goto flex, my rear shackles hit my frame immediately, so im either gonna go buy steel and make boomerang shackles, i figured id cut em so its lifts me another half an inch, so i have 4 inches of lift total.
thats my jeep with 3.5" and 31's and i never got stuck yet so
(http://jeeperz.tenmagazines.com/gallery/dirtridr89/89359.jpg)[/list]
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^^ Thanks guys. You both got to my point better than I did.
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i would go with a one inch body and a set of shackles for a couple inches and find a used set of 31 for sale(if you look on your local forums, there is always 31's for sale) and spend the rest on recovery equipment like jeffy said. then you see how much you like it before you go crazy and it will also allow you to buy one lift after you see what you want instead of a 4 inch lift now and then maybe buy another one later when you want to go bigger. with the shackles and the body lift you can still use them later with a full suspension lift so you get a cheap couple of inches now and have a couple extra helper inches later with a full lift.
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A lot to ponder for a 16/17 yr old. When I was your age, I got the hand-me down 71 Dodge Dart from my dad. It had the 318 in it and I used to smoke his snow tires consistently. I didn't realize I was to purchase a new set. He wondered how he was able to last on the tires through 4 winters and I only had 1. Then the cost of a v8 for gas mileage just sucked. To add, teenage years is all about competiton.....like you stated, your buddy has something that is claimed to be what you want. No not really. Like others have stated, compromise is best for you. School should be where your head should be. Grades to get into college, college to get a job, job to get a life to enjoy and have fun. Spending as little as possible now to reach your goal is best for you. Get things for the Jeep to perform is what you would want rather than the 'Bling' to what it looks like.
Not only does adding stuff cost, but so does maintenance. If you are mechanically inclined and can perform the work, the better you are off. I've purchased many a things used for my TJ over the past couple of years.
So what you should be looking for are used items from those upgrading. I'd weight what others have stated here, talk to your Dad (appears to be goal oriented), set some goals to accomplish, and take him out for some fun.
One of the biggest things I'd suggest would be to look for a local 4wd club to join. Knowledge is best shared as well as parts. Most clubs won't allow a teen to join so you may have to get your Dad or older sibling to join also.
For a budget build, keep things simple. Tire size is not all what gives offroad. Its a lot dependant on the driver and the capabilities of the vehicle. Short comings of the vehicle will be learned by the driver, that is why we always spend and look for upgrades. Safety and recovery items should be a high priority, including self extraction- hi-lift, straps, clevises, frame attachments, first aid, cb, etc.
Next could be aggressive tires. Look for something that will fit on the stock rims to be cheap. Depending on how much trailriding you do, aggressive ATs would probably suffice. Tire size plays a big part in the performance of the vehicle, so keep it large and small at the same time. Others have given you an idea on the performance changes with larger tires, so there is always added costs to larger tires. To fit, YJs can use TJ flares to open the wells more, longer shackles do help to get that extra space, and by adding quick disconnects to the front sway bar, you can get better travel. Some suggested to remove the track bars, but most of this weighs on the driver. Some YJ drivers prefer it, some don't. A track bar is the bar that attaches to the axle at one end, the other end attaches to the frame. Sway bar connects to the axle at 2 points, and the frame at 2 points. You'll be best to keep the sway bar attached for streetability.
Shocks help the ride, so you could consider this a maintenance item without going to a 'lift'.
Body lifts are another way of getting necessary clearance for larger tires, but if you keep the tires relatively small (31-32's), then combination of flares, shackles, and body lift would work. If you do decide to go with a 33, keep it skinny at 9.5". These fit on the stock rim and with the combination 'lift', you should have enough clearance for them. I know of a KCJeeper looking to sell a set of 33x9.5 AT's (http://www.kcjeepclub.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7864.
Good luck and let us know what you go with.
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Well, to help you guys out some more, I will add this...
I already purchased new wheels. Here is 2 pictures of them...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/FlyersPh9/Photos/NewVS.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/FlyersPh9/Photos/Wheels.jpg)
Secondly, I will not be doing hardcore offroading ATM, maybe further down the road (a couple years once I become comfortable) As of right now, the lift/tires combo is mostly for looks and trying to accomplish building my "dream vehicle". The difference between a stock Jeep and a 2.5" lift with 31" tires is okay...but the difference between a stock Jeep and a 4" lift with 33" tires is AMAZING![/list]
I will talk it over with my dad some more and take your advice. Thanks thus far! :D
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4 inchs and 33's on a yj dont mix dude. my buddy has a 4inch, and 32's and he rubs at full flex. you dont need a big jeep to go far, you need to know how to drive to go far. you got wagon wheels thats what i have, but still just go with 31's it will be much cheaper, especially if you get a used set.
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Learn how to drive it on easy trails first. There is alot to a Jeep like the rear end walking around on you going down a hill because the front is heavier. Buy the book "Jeep Owners Bible" by Moses Ludel and read up on it this winter. It's a good reader for Jeep owners. Spend the $20.00 on it, it's worth it.
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Please consider the following:
1) Convert all yokes to the u-bolt style. The straps and bolts are not so reliable.
2) Swap in a ford 8.8 rear axle. Much stronger than the stock D35.
3) Run 31 inch tires with a 1 inch body lift and 1 inch longer shackles.
4) Remove rear track bar and get quick disconnects for the front anti-sway bar.
5) Put a locker in the 8.8 if budget permits.
You will end up with a great jeep and you can convince your Dad becasue the objective is to get you home safely from off-road trips.
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did you guys miss the mostly for looks part? I can't help you there cause i don't care for lifted for looks and no action jeeps. Sorry
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Actually, I did miss that. All show and no go isn't the way to go but it seems like that's how things are a lot these days. Especially with the younger crowd. :( Posing sucks. I say build them and then run them for what they were built for.
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Yeah, rich boys tend to show off like pharises. But rich boys don't make it to heaven. Save your money for college or some unforseen future happening, dad knows best. Get the 31's and be happy you can go almost anywhere. When you get the money job, get a Rubicon. I have done alot of stuff with 30's , stock with not even a lim. slip , or lift, that owners of lifted Rubicons wouldn't do. Some of it was ignorance based, ( I got balls, no brains) even on bald tires. I follwed a Rubicon up a black diamond trail with nearly bald 31" a/t tires and made it :yikes: :lol: . It's all about finesse, including throttle and tire placement. I rode dirt bikes and atc's for ten years, prior to Jeeps though so I got some experience with dirt, mud and sand. The Rubicon trail was done with no lift, and small tires in the hay day of jeeping.
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i guess i'm an outcast being 17 and caring more bout geting up the trail than wut my jeep looks like. i personally think it looks like garbage clean, it always need a coat of mudd to look nice.
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Before everyone gets into a hissy fit about having a Jeep that looks good or wheels well....
....both are fine.
I believe his first post said he went wheeling and the only reason it would be lifted for "looks" is that he is taking it easy on the wheeling for now but will get into it more as the Jeep gets built up.
I was hesitant about wheeling at first as I had never done it before...but added my 3" lift a few months later and wheel at least once a month...so much so that I will be buying a 4.5" long arm lift this month to replace the 3" I just put on 5 months ago (long arm because it looks good :lol: )
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mozzman,
can I just buy the flex control arms for my 2 1/2" lift , or do I need to buy an entire kit? I see 4wd.com has adjustable control arms for 220. a piece but am unsure if that is the arm to buy for serious flex.
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Hmm, here's my take on the whole 'poseur' thing. If he lifts it a bit and gets larger tires, he will probably be more willing to wheel it. (which is a good thing) Like I said, 33's and stock gears will get you through trails like the Rubicon fine. It's still a good starting point even if it's not that fast.
The only down side to jumping to 33's is cheaping out on a lift kit. If you go too cheap, you'll probably be buying another lift kit once you get to know the Jeep and what your limitations are. The good thing is that for the most part, YJ lifts are a lot cheaper then TJ lifts.
In any case here's a pict of my Jeep, circa 1996., back when it was still 'small'. 4.25" lift, stock gears and axles open. 33x11.5R15's on 8.5"x15 aluminum wheels. ...and yes, it was wheeled and nothing broke. :lol:
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/yokomura/jeep/3d3e4873.jpg)
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Jeffy,
locked, how big can he go
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Jeffy,
locked, how big can he go
With stock axles I really wouldn't want to run 33's but it can be done if you drive with finesse and don't mine taking the strap occasionally. Romp on the throttle and start hopping the rear and you'll break the axle. The shock load is what really breaks them. Swapping them out for HD shafts would be the way to go since the axle shafts are the real weak point. I think you'd be OK with 33's then. This still doesn't mean you'd be safe running 31's with a locker either. Although the 35's are real hit & miss. Some break faster then others.
With that said I ran 32's and a rear locker and didn't have any problems. Although the locker did and was sent back after a few weeks of use.
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thats my jeep with 3.5" and 31's and i never got stuck yet so
(http://www.gljt.org/modules/Forums/images/smiles/lolpoint.gif) (http://www.gljt.org/modules/Forums/images/smiles/lolpoint.gif) (http://www.gljt.org/modules/Forums/images/smiles/lolpoint.gif)
You haven't tried hard enough!
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And you did little jeepz ?
I never run mud personally so I would not know. I got stuck in shale before , but piled rocks to get out.
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This is my last stuck, believe it or not there's 31's under there somewhere. Anything can be accomplished if you try hard enough. :lol:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i33/jlafaive/Cliffs/e994re2.jpg)
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I was in your position 2 years ago, with the same money constraints and what not this is what i did (keep in mind i have a TJ, little bit more expensive)
I went with the tad bit expensive suspension system simply because i realized one thing, tire's wear out, lifts tend to last a while. Your stuck with a system for the longer period of time than you are with the tires.
So i went a tad bit smaller with 31's and went with the better suspension lift. Havent looked back, you gotta figure also that things will bust so dont forget that.
With the 31 you get managable power losses, plus your gass mileage will be better of than with the 33s.
Also that two inches seems to be negliable offroading wise. I had a friend with the 5.5 RE LA and 2 inch blocks with 33s and the 4.0 (cherokee) and i was able to do things he did, albeit with a much more technical line than him.
Rember, experience can always compensate for lack of equipment. :lol:
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I was in a similar situation as you not so long ago. Now I am 19 and looking back I took the expensive road that was not as much fun. I thought I would build my jeep up and be able to wheel the crap out of it. The result is thousands of $ and a perpetually broken jeep. spend your money on 31 or 32 and swap in a new rear rather than getting bigger tires and a bigger lift. This would be a solid setup that could take some abuse and still be a good DD. Lockers would be sweet once your workin in the summer. I work two jobs just fr my jeep and I go to school. It is not fun and leaves no time for wheelin. Have fun with what you got before you catch the highly contagious jeep bug. once you catch it your jeep will already have a lot of the ground work layed.
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I was at the Northwoods Jeep Jamboree in Sept. and there was a guy there with a similar setup to mine. 2.5 YJ on 31's with open diff's and he went on the S.O.B. trail rated an 8. Out of I think 14 rigs, he was the only one not locked and the only one running smaller than 33's. He was also the only one that didn't need to be strapped that day including both of the guides. He shocked everyone that he could not only hang with the "big rigs" but show them up as well. I believe that doing more with less for a while will make you a better driver and not so dependant on equipment and will produce much better results when you do get your rig the way that you want it in the end. It will also give you better ideas of what you really need. You will ultimately make better buying decisions once you do start to pony up the big money later on. I spent my money on recovery and safety stuff first, winch, OBA, CB, HiLift, etc. and I'm glad I did.
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My two cents:
If you move to a lift and 33's it's possible that you're going to start breaking stuff. i.e. axles, etc. It doesn't sound like you've got the resources to constantly fix broken stuff at this time. I'd consider an inexpensive mud tire not larger than 31's. Spend the rest outfitting the Jeep with stuff like a winch, bumpers, recovery tools, maybe even Lockright lockers. Lockers make a huge difference offroad! If you plan on doing much wheeling, you're going to need the recovery gear either way.
I took my 97 4cyl TJ out for the first time two weeks ago and had a blast! No mods except for a winch and bumpers. Stock tires even. I've got a 85 CJ-7 wih 35's and lockers. With the crowd I run with I sometimes get bored driving the CJ. I really had to "drive" the TJ to go the same places.
You can have fun with a mostly stock Jeep. I bet Dad would be happier to see you not lift it right now too.