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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Chad on January 26, 2007, 01:05:47 PM
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Well I am really interested in getting a locker for my front axel. I have heard thats better than getting a rear with the D35 and the that the front is only engaged when 4x4 is on so i figure its better. Anyhow I read ChrisFranklin's review of the Aussie D30 and he sounds very please, no buyers remorse. I have also heard that ARB makes a boss setup any opinions or links would be helpful, note this is for a 99 TJ
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Personal opinion (and a bit bias)... The ARB 30spline D30 with Alloy USA axles...
The D30 is an understanded axle. It's a bit tougher than one might think. Upgrading it to 30 spline axles and a selectable locker would make a world of wheeling difference.
Except for the overall cost.. ARB
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The Aussie in the front has worked fine so far. I don't think I'd be too eager to go run in 4WD Hi at 55mph with it on a ski trip. But, if you are in a warmer area and don't run 4WD Hi at speed a lot to accomodate slick conditions -snow, ice - and you go off-road, the an Aussie or No-slip in the front doesn't seem a bad way to go. In the three years since I've been in California, I've never once had to use 4WD Hi onroad, at speed, or confronted snow/ice, so this whole front autolocker/slick condition issue wasn't a problem that I needed to address.
However, if you are in Canada, the Pacific Northwest, Colorado, Utah where they have real weather - basically areas with higher latitudes than California/Arizona - you may want to go driver adjustable ARB/OX, at least in the front, if not front and rear. I probably would - either that or run that Detroit in the front that slips a bit.
Another thing is what kind of trails you plant to be doing off-road. Detroits, ARB, OX are probably the way to go when you are running big tires. The Aussie is warrantied for whatever tires you want to use - so you can use it with 39s and they'll replace it if you break it. It's a nice warranty and shows a little manufacturer confidence, but who wants to waste a day to pop open their diff cover and pull a busted diff out and then leave their Jeep idle for several days until the new one shows up in the mail? I'd have a little more confidence in the ARBs, OX Detroits versus Aussie w/ big tires, 33s-37s, etc
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Just ordered my axles today....ARB front and rear...woot!! :twisted:
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I was looking into a locker for the d30 as well. Only issue I am worried about is my jeep is a DD... not sure how much of a problem that would make things. I am also a lil worried about driving it on pavement. I use 4wd occasionally on the road up here through the snow. Like Chris said I'm the one that runs it at higher speeds to accomodate for slick conditions.
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I currently run a TrueTrac and a Detroit. My next axles will probably have ARB's. They have been out the longest of the selectable lockers and have proven themselves to be as good as the Detroit.
I'll be waiting for my ARB discount coupon...
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Chad, on a TJ the front is always engaged between the left and right side wheels they do not have a disconnect system like the YJ to disconnect the front axle when in 2HI so a limited slip or selectable locker is better otherwise you may find a full locker up front causing some steering difficulty! Take note if people have YJ's or TJ's, Selectable is the best way to go up front but the Detroit Truetrac may be a good choice for your front since selectable lockers are still very pricey!
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ok i have a question.. in my yj i don't have a locker in the front but when i had it in 4hi with the front axle connected the front axle binded adn i thin kyou call it bump steer when on asphalt(slow speeds).. why does that happen if the front axel is open.. i do have a locker in the back which i assume contributes to this abit but this was kinda weird to me..
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ok i have a question.. in my yj i don't have a locker in the front but when i had it in 4hi with the front axle connected the front axle binded adn i thin kyou call it bump steer when on asphalt(slow speeds).. why does that happen if the front axel is open.. i do have a locker in the back which i assume contributes to this abit but this was kinda weird to me..
No, that is not bumpsteer, it's just binding. You have binding between the front axle and the rear axle. Here is what happens in simple terms...
You have two independent systems working at slightly different speeds and you're locking them together with the transfer case. The weaker system is going to bind and release the pressure.
Ok, here's a more complicated answer. Your engine rotates at a constant speed. It is bolted to the transmission and then to the transfer case. When you're in 4WD BOTH output shafts turn at the same speed. This in turn rotates the driveshafts and that rotates the pinion gear. Now, here comes the tricky part.
Whenever you turn, all 4 tires will rotate at different speeds. The tires on the inside of the turn will have the shortest distance to go while the outer tires will have to go a longer distance. Now the rear axle never follows the exact path of the front axle and will take a wider arc then the front. This slight difference is what causes binding in the drivetrain.
To get around some transfer cases have a third differential. These are usually found on trucks with a full-time 4wd.
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ic..
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Selectable is the best way to go up front but the Detroit Truetrac may be a good choice for your front since selectable lockers are still very pricey!
Would you consider an ECTED instead of the TrueTrac up front? I realize it is clutch based, but I'd get locker capability and still get the LSD for snow. The pricing is not too far out there.
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The ECTED is a selectable unit, it just depends how much the limited slip tries to grab when you pull a U-turn on pavement. I would prefer an ARB or OX in the front of a TJ. It's an expensive decision so take your time and do your research. I will be putting an ECTED in the rear of my friends TJ shortly which should workout well.
Electronically Controlled Traction Enhancing Differential. It allows a user to flip a switch to either limited slip or full locker mode. When selected “off”, the ECTED functions as a limited slip differential for street use, and when selected “on”, it functions as a full locker/spool and ideal for off-roading.
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The ECTED is a selectable unit, it just depends how much the limited slip tries to grab when you pull a U-turn on pavement.
Even when in 2 wheel drive?
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The ECTED is a selectable unit, it just depends how much the limited slip tries to grab when you pull a U-turn on pavement.
Even when in 2 wheel drive?
Yep...that's what's so cool about it....you get a selectable locker that returns to the standard Jeep limited slip that you are used to on a stock vehicle when it's off.
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One problem with a Truetrac up front is if you don't have a front axle disconnect. The LSD is pretty tight and will cause some understeer. I notice it right away but it might be something you could get used to.
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Even when in 2 wheel drive?
Yep...that's what's so cool about it....you get a selectable locker that returns to the standard Jeep limited slip that you are used to on a stock vehicle when it's off.
One problem with a Truetrac up front is if you don't have a front axle disconnect. The LSD is pretty tight and will cause some understeer. I notice it right away but it might be something you could get used to.
With respect to running the ECTED, in the front axle, in 2 wheel drive:
1) Would there be expected binding (U turns), understeer, appreciable clutch pack wear, etc. ?
2) I was thinking the clutch wear would be minimal, because it would spend most of it's life in 2 wheel drive. Is this incorrect?
3) If appreciable wear were expected, would a Warn Hub Kit dial the ECTED out of the system completely?
It seems like a nice system for the front of a 4 cyl that lives in the Northwest - just trying to get insight before I put the front TrueTrac back on the market.
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With respect to running the ECTED, in the front axle, in 2 wheel drive:
1) Would there be expected binding (U turns), understeer, appreciable clutch pack wear, etc. ?
2) I was thinking the clutch wear would be minimal, because it would spend most of it's life in 2 wheel drive. Is this incorrect?
3) If appreciable wear were expected, would a Warn Hub Kit dial the ECTED out of the system completely?
It seems like a nice system for the front of a 4 cyl that lives in the Northwest - just trying to get insight before I put the front TrueTrac back on the market.
With all of the 'tight' LSD's you will have some understeer without any disconnect. It will not be binding since the LSD isn't ever 1:1. Since the Auburn uses clutches, I'd imagine there will be some wear. Going with a manual hub setup will eliminate any understeer BUT it's really an expensive option.
Honestly, if you're going to go through all that trouble, first make sure you're not going to be wanting to upgrade axles ever. (You will never make the money back) Secondly, it would seem like a big waste of money to choose such a locker and have to buy a hub conversion. Your money would be better spent buying a locker that stays open when off. This negates having to do a hub conversion. Not to mention, I doubt you would ever use the LSD in 4wd when you really need it, you'd rather have it locked up.
This is one of the reasons why the Rubicon's are set up with a REAR Locked/LSD while the front is Locked/Open.
I still would go with an ARB. They have been around for a long time and have been used and abused. Eaton recently bought Tractech who makes the Detroit and Electric Detroit so it will be interesting if they continue both the Eaton E-locker and the Electronic Truetrac.
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Hey Jeffy -
How do you like the Detroit trutrac/locker setup?
I have thought about going the same route, but, $$$ is now a factor...
(The wife found out how much it cost to lift, regear and do 35's) :stick:
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Going with a manual hub setup will eliminate any understeer BUT it's really an expensive option.
Already in the budget for the HP30 w/TrueTrac.
Honestly, if you're going to go through all that trouble, first make sure you're not going to be wanting to upgrade axles ever. (You will never make the money back)
I hear you. Thats what the "2.4L - HP30 or TJ44 - 5.13 gear ratio" post is about.
Not to mention, I doubt you would ever use the LSD in 4wd when you really need it, you'd rather have it locked up.
My thinking was snow on the street and mud on the trail. I already have used TrueTrac's purchased for front and rear. This combination has a following in the Northwest and will take me alot of places up here.
This is one of the reasons why the Rubicon's are set up with a REAR Locked/LSD while the front is Locked/Open.
I'm not wild about a clutch based LSD in the rear. I was thinking if the ECTED were in front the clutch life would be extended and I'd have some locker capability at a decent price point.
I still would go with an ARB. They have been around for a long time and have been used and abused. Eaton recently bought Tractech who makes the Detroit and Electric Detroit so it will be interesting if they continue both the Eaton E-locker and the Electronic Truetrac.
Yea I know - All of these are great choices but put me over the top for cost, with respect to intended use i.e. a moderate, decently built, street - trail rig. I guess if I traded the Manual Hub money, but I liked the idea of being able to isolate the front drive train. I take it you don't think this is a good upgrade?
I appreciate your insight.
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Hey Jeffy -
How do you like the Detroit trutrac/locker setup?
I have thought about going the same route, but, $$$ is now a factor...
(The wife found out how much it cost to lift, regear and do 35's) :stick:
I have run this setup since around 2001, I think. The only thing that makes me want to go with ARB's is the fact that I can turn off the locker for daily driving. I will probably never trailer my Jeep and there are situations where it's nice to have an open diff. Driving on a looong sweeping turn down hill can cause the locker to buck, when you're doing 70-75mph and you feel the rear kick out and come back, it gets hairy! The other scenario is stopping on a hill where you need to choose to turn left or right. The locker will unlock if you turn the wheel too soon and you'll be 1wd which causes the wheel to hop and you to lose traction.
Then there's shifting and the occasional kick you get. Overall, you can live with the setup but if it's your daily, it gets a little frustrating.
Offroad, I like it. Although those harder trails that require two lockers, will be tough. You can help it by applying the brakes a little and using a hand throttle to get you moving. The brakes will slow the wheel spin and get you closer to 1:1. It's a bulletproof setup though. Old school Jeepers from the 80's used to do this setup.
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Already in the budget for the HP30 w/TrueTrac.
I hear you. Thats what the "2.4L - HP30 or TJ44 - 5.13 gear ratio" post is about.
My thinking was snow on the street and mud on the trail. I already have used TrueTrac's purchased for front and rear. This combination has a following in the Northwest and will take me alot of places up here.
I'm not wild about a clutch based LSD in the rear. I was thinking if the ECTED were in front the clutch life would be extended and I'd have some locker capability at a decent price point.
Yea I know - All of these are great choices but put me over the top for cost, with respect to intended use i.e. a moderate, decently built, street - trail rig. I guess if I traded the Manual Hub money, but I liked the idea of being able to isolate the front drive train. I take it you don't think this is a good upgrade?
I appreciate your insight.
Oh, I didn't realize this was you! Honestly, I would get a D44 if you want to get manual hubs. For the cost of going with manual hubs, you could be halfway into a D44. Although you will need to change your rear bolt pattern to 5 on 5.5" but it's a stronger pattern and will give you the better 6 bolt locking hubs.
If you're looking to doing anything remotely hard, the truetracs will leave you wanting real lockers. Especially since you have two of them.
What is teh cost of an ECTED? Have you priced an E-Locker or a OX. The ARB's a bit pricey but a good choice too. Especially, if you have or plan on having onboard air.
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I'm not wild about a clutch based LSD in the rear.
I am running a rear 8.8 with the LSD now (front D30 open) and have been pretty suprised at what I can pull off with the LSD. - So has my buddy with a Rubicon! :gimp:
Seems the LSD + powerbraking works pretty good... (was even better when I had stock suspension - more flex)
Been thinking but can't commit yet...
As far as your gearing dilema ~ I am still running 4.10s with 35's right now... I have 4.88s to install ~ but I'm a warm weather wrencher... I would think the 4.88's and 33's would be the way to go. I have been able to hit 70mph and occasionally use 5th with the 4.10s. If you want to go bigger than 33s go for the deeper gears.
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Honestly, I would get a D44 if you want to get manual hubs. For the cost of going with manual hubs, you could be halfway into a D44. Although you will need to change your rear bolt pattern to 5 on 5.5" but it's a stronger pattern and will give you the better 6 bolt locking hubs.
A little confused here. Which D44 are you refering to i.e. front or rear? If front, I assume you are not referring to the one out of a Rubicon? I have a rear XJ 44 with a TrueTrac almost complete. It needs only brake line connections and paint.
I thought about not building the HP 30 and purchasing a Rubicon housing and building it instead to get the lower ratio.
What is teh cost of an ECTED?
No real shopping, but PORC has them listed at $548.00. I've heard of guy's getting them around 500.00. I purchased the TrueTrac for 250.00 used, and I would put it back on the market at that.
Have you priced an E-Locker or a OX. The ARB's a bit pricey but a good choice too.
Northridge
OX $799.00
ELOCK $756.00 (I struggle with the exposed electronics with these)
ARB $1022.00 w compressor
They are just pushing the limit for me. Right now my hope is the the 4.88's will work well enough.
Please set me straight - which D44 housing are you suggesting up front?
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Time restraints won't allow me to elaborate too much (cuz I'm getting ready to walk out the door from work...)
But one thing ARB has brought to the table was strength... ARB isn't using internal clutches, discs or limited slip stuff to take up valuable gear space inside. By not having these added pieces inside the carrier it allows ARB to maximize the gear size... therefore, making it stronger than a stock carrier (or, hopefully) anyone else's carrier.
Price is a huge issue... So very huge!! And that actually determines most peoples decisions... Get the best price you've ever gotten from any 4WD drive shop out there. Total with freight, taxes and surrounding parts... Call David at Northridge and tell David that $$... I'll insist that he beat it (I can't tell you by how much)...
Northridge builds 44's too.
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A little confused here. Which D44 are you refering to i.e. front or rear? If front, I assume you are not referring to the one out of a Rubicon? I have a rear XJ 44 with a TrueTrac almost complete. It needs only brake line connections and paint.
I thought about not building the HP 30 and purchasing a Rubicon housing and building it instead to get the lower ratio.
- which D44 housing are you suggesting up front?
No I was not referring to a Rubicon D44 but something else. You can find D44's out of other trucks like an Early Bronco, or a mid-late model Jeep Grand Wagoneer. This will give you true Dana 44 knuckles and outers which means manual locking hubs. If you have enough money to budget a $1100 Warn Hub conversion, then you can surely buy and rebuild a D44 salvage for half the cost. Not to mention if you sold that HP30.
Really though, saving a few hundred on the Auburn, over an ARB then dropping $1100 on a Warn hub conversion is a bit crazy.
For the rear all you'd need to do is to either get aftermarket shafts drilled(I've heard the OEM's don't have enough room. Superiors come with both 4.5 and 5.5" though.) for the matching pattern or use conversion adapters.
What you really need to do is sit down and figure out where you want to do to the Jeep. if you're going to end up going bigger in a month or year down the road then it wouldn't be worth it to keep pouring money into that D30. But if your rear is already geared to 4.88's and you have the front then throw it in and see if you like it.
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So how much are we talking for an ARB front axle locker for a 99 TJ? eight hundo? or more
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So how much are we talking for an ARB front axle locker for a 99 TJ? eight hundo? or more
Well, something like a Super 30 will be around $1500. While a 27 spline locker will be around $780 plus $140 for the compressor. Also, the compressor is good for airing up your tires too. So that's another plus.
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What you really need to do is sit down and figure out where you want to do to the Jeep.
I already have and it includes 33X10.50 tires (max) with a front LSD and the abilty to decouple the front. A problem arises if the 4.88's are not deep enough for 33" tires and 147HP 4cyl. That is my only interest in a front D44. If I had to build one I have alot of reseasrch to do. Your Ford suggestion is interesting but much more invloved than building a HP30 or building from a Rubicon housing. Still it is something I will look into.
Appreciate the help.
cliff
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The Warn hub conversions are way to much $$$ for a TJ, you can find a Ford front axle with locking hubs much cheaper and beef up you front axle at the same time. The rear axle is more commonly upgraded, I have seen the 27 spline stock rear axles break real easy. Many YJ owners I Jeep with are swapping in the Ford 8.8 rear axle. Most of the axle breakage I have seen are Dana 35 rear with Detroit Locker and a 4.0L which has more torque than a 4banger. If only one rear wheel has traction the axle shaft on that side may take all the vehicle engine torque. In this picture the front wheels were cut left hard in loose sand and only one rear wheel had traction on the rock, bang the left rear shaft snapped and being c-clip began sliding out of the tube.
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/HD4X4/Nuts%20and%20Bolts/Axle%20Stuff/NightmareGulch2086.jpg)
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The Warn hub conversions are way to much $$$ for a TJ, you can find a Ford front axle with locking hubs much cheaper and beef up you front axle at the same time.
What is the WMS to WMS dimension on the Ford front D44? If I understand Jeffy, I have to cut the tubes down and then come up with axles and brackets. I guess another way is to cut the brackets off the 35 and reweld them. I spoke with my machinest tonight (Colts won -Yea), and he doesn't really care what I bring him although he did say something about purchasing a lathe when I spoke to him about dissimilar axles - hmm.
Another question - If one were to purchase a Ford unit, wouldn't you rebuild with all new components minus the inner and outer axles? If so, how much of the hub assembly would you replace? All the bearings and U joints or what?
To me, the 5 on 5.5 thing is a completely mute point and an uneccessary expense (new rear axles and wheels (ok I'll give you the wheels, I run steel crap)). My SE isn't going to do squat on 33X10.50 tires and the stock transfer case - if it did I should be smiling. As you already know, a built HP30 is good for 35's with the 4.0. I don't see the 5 on 5.5 being a selling point. If it added value ( strength wise) and were cost effective (it has to offset the cost of the hub rebuild, axles - F&R, & wheels- ok.) On the face of it, it adds complication and cost. With research, it might be more cost effective to build this way, but I have a feeling a RUBI housing at 650.00 will be more cost effective.
All of this to get to 5.13's which has nothing to do with the trail and everything with driving to the mall. :cry:
At least no one has said dump it and buy a 6.
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Most of the axle breakage I have seen are Dana 35 rear with Detroit Locker and a 4.0L which has more torque than a 4banger.
Yeah Mark, every broken D35 photo I've ever seen is usually showing a rig with 33" tires, probably locked in the rear only, 4 or 6 cylinder (but likely 6).
This all makes sense. Somebody buys a Jeep (likely 4.0) and they want a lift and big tires. So they get set up with that and take it off road. Traction still suffers so they ask around about a locking differential. Everybody says lock the rear first. So, they lock the rear. Then, they throw it in low range, take it off-road, end up unweighting the unlocked front so its just the rear that has traction. The rear end slips a little on dusty rocks before getting a grip and "snap."
I dunno about stopping D35 axle "tube" bending, but I speculate that chances of outright stock axle breakage in the D35 could be greatly reduced by making sure your Jeep's front end always has traction off road. Lock the front, if you lock the rear.
I run a locker in the front, not the rear. What sucks is, I could probably end up having an axle snap in the front if my rear end loses traction. I think you need to have front and rear lockers and that the D30 probably isn't any better than the D35 in terms of "snappage" vulnerability using a single locker - small tires and the 4 banger are probably the only thing keeping my front axles in tact so far :lol:
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I still feel a rear locker offers better traction when climbing because most of the vehicle weight is on the rear meaning that the rear has more traction. Some of my buddies have put Ford 8.8 rear ends on their YJ's and a Detroit Locker with great results. This seems to be strong enough to handle 4.0L and 35 inch tires with no problem and they can be found for about $300 fairly easy. Last weekend I went wheeling with another friend who currently has an OX Locker in his front end only and we had very poor traction climbing loose rocky hills while my TJ climbed them without even slipping a tire. I currently have a rear locker in my D35 and 33" BFG's. Another huge traction issue is suspension flex, keeping those tires on the ground firmly makes all the difference in the world when climbing hills and preventing the bounce effect with a good set of shocks plus an antiwrap system on leaf springs. The first time I pulled my sway bar links was a truly amazing experience and I wanted more! Both my previous YJ and current TJ run 33" tires and never snapped an axle but most people agree 33" is as big as you can go on the stock axles. The XJ in the picture has 35" tires and a 4.0L and keeps breaking axles when we go wheeling but he trailers it to the trail head expecting carnage.