4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: jfrabat on July 18, 2007, 01:52:43 PM
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Hey, guys. I have some opinion questions for you.
I have a '94 2.5L YJ, and recently installed my RE 4" lift with the Advanced Adaptors SYE and Woody shaft. THe reason I went to 4" lift is that eventually, I will change the 31" tires for 33", but before I go in that direction, I will most likely install lockers and change gear ratios.
My current intention is to go with OX Lockers (front and rear), and change the rear axle to an Alloy USA 30 spline (of course, the locker will also be 30 spline), and change the gears to 4.88 (I currently have 4.10).
My first question is, is it worth changing the axle to the Alloy USA one, or should I look for a completely new rear axle (D44?)? I have read that the rear D35 is the weak link in the YJ, but I was wondering if the Alloy USA model is strong enough to handle the 33" tires with lockers or if it will also die on me on the long run.
The second question is, should I go with dual OX lockers, or should I use OX in the rear and something else in the front (Detroit Locker?). What I like about the OX is that (1) the differential cover is VERY strong, it is cable operated, so an electrical or compressor (which I do not yet have!) failure will not cause a locker failure, and that while off, the Jeep will handle like stock, but I do hear they are HARD to install (the whole cable length issue). What would be your recommendations?
Lastly, the gears. I think 4.88 should be enough, and I should not have any issues with the current axles (I hould be able to go from 4.10 to 4.88 without much trouble), but I hear 5.13 is not necessarily compatible with my axles. Opinions?
Anyway, this is not urgent matters, as I doubt I will do this this year (my wife is STRONGLY controlling my Jeep expenses now that she is pregnant, and to top it all off, I just paid for the lift, shaft and SYE), but I do want to start planning for this...
Felipe
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By the way, I hear front axles are strong enough for 33" and lockers; is this really so?
Felipe
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D35 sucks go with a D44 or 8.8, your axles are NOT compatable with anything higher (numericaly) than 4.88, as for the front I personally dislike my D-30 but it is holing up fine with 33" and a locker (it is also what is holding me up from getting 5.38 gears) :'( , as for 4.88's and 33's they work but it can always get better and last if you can afford OX lockers get them but I would put a selectable locker in the front instead of the rear if I could only use one. Just my oppinion but you asked :biggrin:.
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I almost always recommend going with a complete axle upgrade. If you're going to install a full-carrier locker and do shafts, then you might as well move up. If you move up to a bigger axle you won't have to upgrade the shafts. This is fairly inexpensive if you have a leaf springs. Otherwise, getting the coil buckets on the axle can be expensive.
As for the OX, I'd go with an ARB. Considering that the ARB has been around since the 70's, it's pretty straight forward. Although the added cost of running a compressor could push it out of your budget. The main supplier of the OX is Drivetrain Direct. I think they might have bought OX which is why OX is still around. As lockers go it's still new. Getting the cables adjusted can be a pain but once set, it should be good.
I wouldn't go with a Detroit up front unless you have manual locking hubs. The Detroit shouldn't be that big of it's not though. Although for a daily driver you might want to be able to drive in 4wd on road without having the front understeer. Also, if you have a vacuum disconnect up front and run a locker, the drive shaft will turn 24/7. This can cause vibrations since the driveshaft on these modes weren't really balanced. Also, if you put a auto-locker in the rear, there will be times when you're 1wd. Wheel hop can be expected.
The Dana 30 on an XJ is the strongest since it's a high-pinion setup without the vacuum disconnect. (earlier XJ's sometimes have the disconnect though) It's a toss up between a stock YJ D30 and the TJ D30. Although, swapping the axle shafts from a XJ or TJ will make it stronger then a stock TJ D30. The D30 can handle 33" tires. You can even run 35's with some care. Drive hard and you can expect broken axle shafts.
Currently I'm using a TrueTrac up front and a Detroit in the back. When I upgrade my axles (again), I'll be going to ARB's. It makes for a bit smoother drive onroad, especially if it's your daily ride.
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OK, if I do decide to upgrade the axles, what would be the best "economical" situation (most bang for the buck)? Anything I could pick up in the junk yard?
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OK, if I do decide to upgrade the axles, what would be the best "economical" situation (most bang for the buck)? Anything I could pick up in the junk yard?
TJ D44 would be the easiest for a TJ. Otherwise, just about anything will work for a YJ/XJ...
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Easiest and most bang for the buck for the 2.5L would be the Ford 8.8 from a '95+ Exploder. Plenty of axle for a YJ up to 35" or 36" tires. Your front will hold up to 35" tires okay, 33" no problem.
I swapped in D44's front and rear, locker and gear options are more plentiful and cheaper than most all other axles. I used an Isuzu Rodeo rear D44 and a Jeep Waggy front D44. Both are disc brake axles and 6-lug wheel patterns. Had to go this route so I could install 5.38 gears. I think it was JP magazine that just did a couple articles on this very axle combo swap.
I don't have 1st hand experience with selectable lockers, but I hear far fewer complaints about the OX than I do the ARB.
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Is there an option that uses the same lug pattern as my current axle? If I am not mistaken, the rear D44 uses a different pattern, and if it does, it means I need a front axle with the same pattern, and that means new wheels, which increases the cost (right?).
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Most good fab shops can redrill the axles for the smaller lug patters (this is only an option for the rear) front usually needs the larger pattern for the hubbs.
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Is there an option that uses the same lug pattern as my current axle? If I am not mistaken, the rear D44 uses a different pattern, and if it does, it means I need a front axle with the same pattern, and that means new wheels, which increases the cost (right?).
The Ford Exploder 8.8 has the same 5x4.5" lug pattern as your stock jeep axles, and nearly the same width as your rear axle. It's as close to a bolt-in as you're likely to find. It can also be found in many of the same gear ratios as what jeeps have from the factory, even with limited slip diffs.
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I pickedup a 2001 with Disc brake with 4.10 gears Axle & install was 900 out the door. my axle was only 3/4 of an inch shorter than stock Bolt pattern 5x4.5 so stock wheels fit great. This is the Most Bang yj mod I done.
Jeffy talk me into about 4 years ago. I had a New yoke install after flange removed & Ujoint with differnet end mated to my Woody rear shaft also fit great. I'm Not sure you could do any other rearend for less money overall.
I had Mount Logan 4x4 do all the work but the Ebrake I did it becuase they where asking 125 more . I fab one for free.
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I'm going to bring this back to life because I too have a locker question. I'm a college student so saving money is priority #1. I really want to do lockers but arb's and ox's are just too expensive for now. I ran into the Auburn Gear-Ected lockers on 4wd.com and they are at the max I would spend on lockers, maybe even a little over. The reason I like them is because they are not always engaged like a Detroit (i think that's how they work, still a bit new to this) and also when the lockers are not engaged they act as a limited slip diff. Has anyone had any experience with these or opinions or other suggestions?
thanks
jake
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also the locker will be for an 8.8.
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I dont have experience with the ECTED, but I read (JP Magazine) that it has lots and lots of parts which could potentially fail. Although, they use them in high HP applications, so maybe for a 4 banger they will work fine. I do know that the most indestructible and trail proofed lockers would be the Detroit (which has bad on-road manners, includding wheel hop and clicking), the OX lockers (they are great if your cable is set up propperly; if not, they can be a pain!) and the ARB (the down side is that you need the air compressor, so budget goes up - althgouh having a compressor on-board is always an advantage!).
Felipe
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If you're poor then why not just stick with a 8.8 that has a Eaton in it? Keep in mind that a full carrier locker will need to be installed. That means the old carrier as well as the ring gear comes out. You'll have to shim the gear to the new carrier and may have to set up some test/cheater bearings. Otherwise, you're looking at having a shop do the install and that can get expensive.
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Jeffy/Bounty,
So which models should I look for to get an 8.8 from? I know the Explorers had them, but what years? And is there any other models that have similar widths to the YJ? And do they all have the Eaton (I imagine these are limited slip, right?) on them, or should I look for specific model/year combinations?
Felipe
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the 8.8 is going to come from 96 or maybe even 95 and later explorer models. No they do not all come with limited slips. The width is somewhere around 591/2" (stock jeep is 60). Because you have a yj, the 8.8 will practically bolt right up because it too is a leaf spring set up. In eastern virginia a used 8.8 costs anywhere from 200-350. If you go to a pick n pull type place you may be able to get them for less.
As for Jeffy's comment I have been doing some research and I haven't really seen anything good about the auburn gear locker. I think I will try and find an 8.8 lsd and put an Aussie up front.
Also, what sort of numbering or symbols on the axle will tell me it's an lsd?
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jfrabat this site helped me find some local used parts stores that sell 8.8s.
car-part.com
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jcoleman,
I've also been hitting the web today, and it seems that the Ford Explorer has had these axles in from 1995 to 2001, but the ones from '95 on have rear disc brakes, which would be another plus. Keep in mind though, that according to what I have read, the diff cover that comes stock on these things is pretty lame, so you will have to invest on an aftermarket one.
Other things to keep in mind:
1. The tubes are not welded to the diff housing; you may want to weld these when you install yours
2. The pinion is offset a whopping 2-3/16" to the right of center (the stock YJ is 3/4), so this could cause some vibes with a CV joint
3. This axle uses pinion flange, not a pinion yoke like most Dana axles (there is a converter called flange yokes available from Spicer, though)
Check out this site for reference...
http://www.jedi.com/obiwan/jeep/ford88.html
Anyway, this certainly seems like a good option to consider... I will see if I can find any of these on the junkyard when I go this weekend!
Felipe
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Early 8.8's also have 27 spline instead of 31 spline axle shafts. THe bearings caps are known to loosen up as well. Many go with the cast diff cover with the bearing cap preloads.
Also, keep in mind that even though the 8.8" is leaf sprung, the perches will most likely need to be moved.
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Also I just did a little number searching. The ford rear end tags work as follows. The first 4 characters on a limited slip should say 3L73 for a 3.73 limited slip ratio. (L, of course, meaning limited slip)
I used that car-parts.com thing to find some parts. I found a place about 20 miles away with two 3.73 limited slips from 2000 ford explorers with about 80,000 miles on them for $150.
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I found one with 4.10 gears (that's what I have now) in FL, but it's $450... Also has LSD.
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I'm not sure if mine includes the brakes. I have to check on that tomorrow.
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I'm not sure if mine includes the brakes. I have to check on that tomorrow.
For $150, I doubt it. That will cost $$$ to get all of the components. At least you'll know the brakes are good.
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yea, that's what I'm worried about.
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All Exploder 8.8's should be 31spl.
The pinion offset to the side has never caused problems from what I've seen.
Spinning the axletubes are a slight concern under moderate to heavy use. I used 55% nickel rod and welded the tubes to the diff on the 8.8 I put into my MJ.
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The pinion offset to the side has never caused problems from what I've seen.
Not even driveline vibrations? I have a CV shaft, so the shaft and the diff shoult be aligned so as to not have any vibes, right? Keep in mind mine is a daily driver, so if this causes bad vibes, it would a PITA when hitting the highway... And I do remember before I aligned my diff with the CV shaft, it rattled like crazy!
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All Exploder 8.8's should be 31spl.
The pinion offset to the side has never caused problems from what I've seen.
Spinning the axletubes are a slight concern under moderate to heavy use. I used 55% nickel rod and welded the tubes to the diff on the 8.8 I put into my MJ.
Whoops, you're right. I was getting the Ranger and the Exploder changed mixed. Here's the definitive guide, http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/Axles.html
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The pinion offset to the side has never caused problems from what I've seen.
Not even driveline vibrations? I have a CV shaft, so the shaft and the diff shoult be aligned so as to not have any vibes, right? Keep in mind mine is a daily driver, so if this causes bad vibes, it would a PITA when hitting the highway... And I do remember before I aligned my diff with the CV shaft, it rattled like crazy!
Canted to the side, down or whatever, it's all just one angle to the driveshaft.
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Canted to the side, down or whatever, it's all just one angle to the driveshaft.
That's my understanding as well, so because of the angle, there SHOULD be some vibrations... I think I may go for the D44 after all... Although it will most likely be more expensive, as it will require a new DS (if I remember correctly, the D44 is longer than the D35, right?)
Felipe
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I think it's only an 1/8" or something so small that you can live with it for a while until you can afford an SYE/drive shaft conversion....not sure how "little" a little while is though.... :puzzled:
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That's my understanding as well, so because of the angle, there SHOULD be some vibrations... I think I may go for the D44 after all... Although it will most likely be more expensive, as it will require a new DS (if I remember correctly, the D44 is longer than the D35, right?)
Felipe
Not necessarily... Its no different then having the driveshaft pointed down or up for that matter. If the angle is within spec of the U-joint, it should run fine.
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So considering I already have a SYE, it would just mean adjusting the DS (if it is different enough to require it), and there should not be so much vibration? Is anyone out there using an 8.8 that would be kind enough to give me some reference as to weather this set up would cause vibrations at highway speeds or not? If I get one for a decent price, I may go for this one instead of the D44 and just leave the D30 up front... It seems both should be ablt to handle up to 35" with lockers (provided I keep the 4 banger and dont do anything stupid), right?
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So considering I already have a SYE, it would just mean adjusting the DS (if it is different enough to require it), and there should not be so much vibration? Is anyone out there using an 8.8 that would be kind enough to give me some reference as to weather this set up would cause vibrations at highway speeds or not? If I get one for a decent price, I may go for this one instead of the D44 and just leave the D30 up front... It seems both should be ablt to handle up to 35" with lockers (provided I keep the 4 banger and dont do anything stupid), right?
An offset rear is not a problem. It's a non-issue. Most rear axles are offset to some degree. The Ford isn't a real offset rear anyway it's for a central output transfer case/transmission. Also, keep in mind that the Jeep's drivetrain isn't perfectly centered either. I beleive it's 1-2" offset.