4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: BOOGIE444 on December 04, 2007, 11:07:52 AM
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I see every one is running 8000 to 10,000lb winches on their jeeps but would a 3500lb winch get you out of some situations if your spinning your tires slowly to help? I guess I dont understand why you need 8000lb or more for a vehicle like a TJ that only weighs around 3000lbs.
Anyways to keep a long story short would a winch like this help at all when stuck on a not so crazy trail, or would it be completly worthless? I like that its only 23lbs as I dont want alot of weight on my jeeps front end and my 4 banger would appreciate it on all my daily driving too. Mile marker PE3500 see linky.....
http://www.trsfabandoffroad.com/products/milemarker_atvwinches.htm
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I see every one is running 8000 to 10,000lb winches on their jeeps but would a 3500lb winch get you out of some situations if your spinning your tires slowly to help? I guess I dont understand why you need 8000lb or more for a vehicle like a TJ that only weighs around 3000lbs.
Anyways to keep a long story short would a winch like this help at all when stuck on a not so crazy trail, or would it be completly worthless? I like that its only 23lbs as I dont want alot of weight on my jeeps front end and my 4 banger would appreciate it on all my daily driving too. Mile marker PE3500 see linky.....
http://www.trsfabandoffroad.com/products/milemarker_atvwinches.htm
Pretty worthless for doing anything but dragging firewood out of the woods.
Because when you are stuck you need more than 3000LBS of force to move your vehicle. I've gotten in situations where I stalled the 8274 on my last jeep. I would think that 8000lb is about the minimum for vehicle recovery.
If you do decide to use a 3000lb winch, make sure you swap on some bigger cable - at least 5/16. That 3/16" will snap like a piece of yarn with a jeep attached to it. Personally I don't use anything but 3/8 steel for vehicle recovery.
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Hmmmm.....
Is there anyway to attach a winch where you can take it on & off real easy? I just dont want to lug around a 70lb winch on my front bumper all the time for gas mileage & handling, not to mention my front end will probably sit lower than my rear end.
Sam's club has a 10,000lb winch with wiring and winch plate for $380 here locally are they any good, I would only be using the thing a couple of times a year???
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What brand is the sams club winch? As far as an easy way to remove, not really. They sell those reciever hitch mounted cradles, but you can't really drive around with them mounted because they kill your approach angle.
As far as having an extra 70 lbs killing your gas mileage - what happens when you have a passenger in the jeep - or a couple bags of groceries?
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Using any type of tool or machine consistantly at it's max capacity is never a good thing. They are not designed for that. The stock GVWR of a 2005 TJ is roughly 4450 lbs. Most companies and websites will tell you as a standard, you always want to have a winch that is at least capable of a load greaterthan or equal to 1.5 X vehicle weight. This is because of what was said previousely, such as being stuck in mud, or being pulled up, and over obstacles that are dragging on your vehicle creating more resistance. 1.5 X 4450 is 6675. So a 6500 lb winch is not even advised. I think you will find that unless you are pulling other things around besides vehicles, your jeep will just be used as an anchor for other small objects and won't really be able to be pulled out of bad situations with your winch.
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What brand is the sams club winch? As far as an easy way to remove, not really. They sell those reciever hitch mounted cradles, but you can't really drive around with them mounted because they kill your approach angle.
As far as having an extra 70 lbs killing your gas mileage - what happens when you have a passenger in the jeep - or a couple bags of groceries?
I've driven around with and without my winch, back seat, mirrors, spare and what not. At highway speeds, you're more at the mercy of aerodynamics then being weighed down. I drove for a month without the stuff then added them back on. There was no difference. So unless you're always driving at under 65 MPH you won't see any any real difference.
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Another 100 bucks and you can get an 8000lb winch
http://www.shop.synergyoffroad.com/product.sc?productId=143&sourceCode=froogle (http://www.shop.synergyoffroad.com/product.sc?productId=143&sourceCode=froogle)
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Another 100 bucks and you can get an 8000lb winch
http://www.shop.synergyoffroad.com/product.sc?productId=143&sourceCode=froogle (http://www.shop.synergyoffroad.com/product.sc?productId=143&sourceCode=froogle)
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Is that the old ramsey? Looks like it...
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Depending on the terrain you run you can get away with the 3500lb winch, we have successfully used a 3000lb winch on the front of my buddies 4wheeler to get a Jeep unstuck a couple of times, it's not the best set-up and it doesn't give you the reassurence that you can get out of any stuck, but it will work, just carry a snatch block, and a bunch of straps as you won't have much reach with the smaller winches, but if you don't run deep mud, or hard rocks and are just looking for something to help you out when you get in some real slippery stuff it will work.
With that being said, FYI, I've stalled the 8000lb winch with a snatch block on it on my Jeep trying to get myself out of a couple stucks, and wished I had something heavier on the Jeep.
I was just thinking as typed this, my buddy has a 3500lb winch on his stock BII and it seems to work pretty good for him most of the time.
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My way of thinking (mind you, this is why I DONT have a winch; I cannot afford it at this time!) is that if you are going to invest in one, get a GOOD winch... To me, that is either Superwinch (a bit cheaper, but still reliable) or Warn (the best).
And the reason is this:
Even if you use your winch once every two or 3 years, most likely the reason you will be using it is because the S$&t hit the fan and you got stuck in the middle of nowhere. At that point, I would much rather have the confidence that the winch will (1) work, and (2) will have enough strength to pull me out of the situation (no matter how bad) so I can get back home. As a result, I prefer to wait and save some money, and buy me something that will bring me this peace of mind. Until then, I will be either doing some VEEEERY light wheeling, or depending on the winch of others to get me out of tough situations...
And another comment related to this (this is kind of the advised I am not following myself, if you know what I mean): a good winch should be one of the FIRST mods to be done. The reason for that is that all the other stuff (lift for bigger tires, bigger tires for more grond clearance, rockers, armor, more engine power, etc.) are things that will give you confdence and actually help you get stuck in the first place!
Think of the winch as an insurance... You invest a lot of money in it, and hope you never need it. But when you do need it, you REALLy want it to do its job!
Felipe
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Using any type of tool or machine consistantly at it's max capacity is never a good thing. They are not designed for that.
Ditto,
I have found that most manufactures are a little biased in their Maximum ratings, on everything from tow straps to speakers :eek:, so for a winch to reliably and safley pull you out you will need one rated much higher than it MAX rating.
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A while back I read some information on manual winches, "come alongs". The article mentioned that many of the ratings are for pulling a load on wheels on a flat floor and not for a vertical off-the-floor lift. The fact that vehicle winches need to be rated for twice the vehicle weight suggests that the load rating is determined in some way other than lifting a load vertically off the floor.
One thing to keep in mind is that the pull will be weaker than the rating with more layers of cable on the winch drum.
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A while back I read some information on manual winches, "come alongs". The article mentioned that many of the ratings are for pulling a load on wheels on a flat floor and not for a vertical off-the-floor lift. The fact that vehicle winches need to be rated for twice the vehicle weight suggests that the load rating is determined in some way other than lifting a load vertically off the floor.
One thing to keep in mind is that the pull will be weaker than the rating with more layers of cable on the winch drum.
The reason why you want a winch rated for at elast 1.5x the vehicles weight is because when you're stuck, you're not dragging just the vehicles weight. You've got to overcome whatever the vehicle is stuck in. Imagine trying to drag a dead weight across a floor. Now imagine trying to drag the weight over some large rocks. Not only are you moving forward but you've also got to pull the weight over the obstical. When you're in mud or sand you have to deal with dragging the vehicle thought it, until the ground is hard enough to ride above it.
Also something to keep in mind is that the rated pull is at the bottom roll. Meaning you have to unwind the cable down to the last few wraps to get the fully rated pull. Once you get to the second wrap, you reduce the pull rating of the winch. On the third wrap, you've reduced it even more.
So if you have the bare minimum weight of the vehicle, you've got to unspool down to the bottom to get the most out of it. This is good for another reason. You can increase the pulling power by something like 90% by double wrapping the cable and using a pulley block. You can do this a few times or till you run out of cable. On larger winches, you've got to start to worry about the mount some other things.
As for a come-a-long, those are ok but will involve a lot of backbreaking work. Tehir spools are usually small and because of that you can only pull short distances. Then you've got to make sure the vehicle won't move them reset your position. You've also got to have something to pull against that's near by. There are a few heavy duty ones out there that don't have the limitations of a spool though those are expensive. Also, a Hi-lift can be used as a come-a-long with a chain or some straps. Although with the price of these cheap winches, even though they aren't Warns, they will be well worth the money even after one good pull.
The big three winch companies are Warn, Superwinch and Ramsey. Overseas you'll probably see more Superwinches then Warns or Ramseys. In the US, Warn seems to be king with Ramsey not that much behind.
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Some good reading for those interested in winches.
Winches in hell (http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/general/listing.cfm?articleID=353)
The biggest surprise to me was that the Harbor Frieght special is one of the few winches that proved it will last a hard days use.
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Some good reading for those interested in winches.
Winches in hell (http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/general/listing.cfm?articleID=353)
The biggest surprise to me was that the Harbor Frieght special is one of the few winches that proved it will last a hard days use.
Yeah, but this makes you wonder what a second day would have brought. "It didn’t finish with the vigor it had at the beginning of the test, but it lacked the good sense to quit and survived all the Winches In Hell challenges.", doesn't really give you that warm fuzzy feeling. Still the CE is/was a Ramsey. I'm not sure if you'd want to clump all of the other sub-$300 winches with it.
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Some good reading for those interested in winches.
Winches in hell (http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/general/listing.cfm?articleID=353)
The biggest surprise to me was that the Harbor Frieght special is one of the few winches that proved it will last a hard days use.
Yeah, but this makes you wonder what a second day would have brought. "It didn’t finish with the vigor it had at the beginning of the test, but it lacked the good sense to quit and survived all the Winches In Hell challenges.", doesn't really give you that warm fuzzy feeling. Still the CE is/was a Ramsey. I'm not sure if you'd want to clump all of the other sub-$300 winches with it.
Right, but when your out wheeling and stuck in a bad situation, it comes down to a couple things at least for me it does, which would I rather have no winch waiting for enough extra money to buy a "good" winch, a basic winch that isn't the best but will work when needed, or one of the winches that cost more and still couldn't finish the test. They make excuses for why this winch and that winch failed, but I'm sorry when I'm sitting in the middle of nowhere on the skid on a peice of ice, I don't care how well my winch works, as long as I get to drive home at the end of the day. But hey, thats just my opinion on things, and thats why I have a Harbor Frieght winch sitting on the front of my Jeep.
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Right, but when your out wheeling and stuck in a bad situation, it comes down to a couple things at least for me it does, which would I rather have no winch waiting for enough extra money to buy a "good" winch, a basic winch that isn't the best but will work when needed, or one of the winches that cost more and still couldn't finish the test. They make excuses for why this winch and that winch failed, but I'm sorry when I'm sitting in the middle of nowhere on the skid on a peice of ice, I don't care how well my winch works, as long as I get to drive home at the end of the day. But hey, thats just my opinion on things, and thats why I have a Harbor Frieght winch sitting on the front of my Jeep.
Oh, I agree that having a cheap winch is better then no winch at all especially if you're in the middle of nowhere. Those guy's who wheel close to home don't really have that sort of problem.
I would have liked to have seen actual models named of all of the winches, not just the finishing three. They end up generalizing a brand to whatever model they choose. Also, a lot of those winches, T-Max, Mile Marker, Bull Dog aren't really any better then a CE. At least the CE is a Ramsey. A friend of mine had his T-Max grenade under mild use. (It's Chinese made like the other two.) The CE is an older Ramsey but one that's been around for a while and has proven itself.
Also, they're using a Warn 9.5XP which is one of Warns Ultimate Performance Series. So basically you're paying more for it right off the bat. The law of diminishing returns come to mind. They probably could have done just as well with an older Warn like the XD9000 or even a M8000. These are a lot cheaper but are as strong as any other Warn and have years of use to back them up. You can still find the occasional Tabor 9000 for under $500 as well. They went up in price after Warn acknowledged the brand as theirs, which is a bit sad. I wouldn't have any problems getting a used Warn either. M8274's can be had for as little as $2-300.
That said, bought my M8000 for $417. This was before they upgraded the motors so it's slower then the current model. I've got no complaints though. You can even buy a new M600 for that price today. It's slow and not nearly as cool as a lot of the new winches but it's solid.
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I was asked by a forum member here to address and clarify a couple issues pertaining to the "Winches In Hell" article. Additionally you will find the installs/reviews for all of the participant winches.
Jeffy stated:
I would have liked to have seen actual models named of all of the winches, not just the finishing three. They end up generalizing a brand to whatever model they choose.
I want to thank Jeffy for the above comment. Winches In Hell is the culmination of month’s worth of articles, but I can see how it might appear as though we were generalizing without knowing of the series of articles. Each winch had its own install and review. My reasoning for thanking you is that unless you were one of the regular readers of MOABJEEPER.com Magazine you would not have known that. We will be adding the install article links to the bottom of the electronic version of Winches In Hell. The print version in our sister publication Jrations had all of them listed in one article.
Dodgemudder stated:
They make excuses for why this winch and that winch failed, but I'm sorry when I'm sitting in the middle of nowhere on the skid on a piece of ice, I don't care how well my winch works, as long as I get to drive home at the end of the day.
There were no excuses made for any of the winches. They failed as they did for the reasons stated which directly eliminated them from the competition. An excuse would have allowed them to continue. My best speculation as to why this claim of "excuses" was made is the reference to the Mile Marker SX9.5. However, as we stated, the winch was not for sale and had not been tested. We feel that there is credit deserved for entering an untested winch, which we stated, yet no allowances were made for this winch.
Jeffy stated:
Yeah, but this makes you wonder what a second day would have brought.
We have continued to use all of these winches and will do for two years. All companies entering the challenge understood this because we too wanted to know how they would do over the long haul. MOABJEEPER.com Magazine will run update articles on all winches.
An extra tidbit... many wanted to know how some of the other winches would have performed if they hadn't failed for whatever reason. MOABJEEPER.com Magazine went back to Moab, Utah and ran this challenge again for those that failed. This article will be out in the next couple of months titled "Winches In Hell, Redemption"
Great comments by everyone I quoted and hope that my posting helps to clear up any questions.
Last comment, great site! At the bottom of this post under the links I have posted a picture of my own 4 banger.
Warn 9.5xp
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/technical/listing.cfm?articleID=329
Superwinch epi9.0
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/technical/listing.cfm?articleID=338
Chicago Electric 9000lb Winch
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/technical/listing.cfm?articleID=334
T-max EW9000 Competition Series Winch
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/technical/listing.cfm?articleID=361
Mile Marker SX9.5
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/technical/listing.cfm?articleID=348
Ramsey Patriot 9500UT
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/technical/listing.cfm?articleID=347
Bulldog 9500
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/technical/listing.cfm?articleID=366
(http://www.moabjeepers.com/george/barney.jpg)
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Sorry but I forgot to introduce myself in the above post so you knew why I replied. I am the president of MOABJEEPER.com Magazine.
George "Moab Man" Pandoff
MOABJEEPER Magazine / President
www.moabjeeper.com
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Ah, that helps a lot and makes a big difference. Thanks for posting the additional information. Oh and welcome. :thumb:
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Welcome George...I read the JRations version and am looking forward to the follow-up article as I was wondering how some of the "prototype" winches would do once they were issued as production items.
Great picture...the look of fear on your passenger's face is priceless. :thumb: