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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: jfrabat on January 08, 2008, 02:12:49 PM
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Hey, guys, I got a bunch of questions for you; sorry for the long list, but I want to educate myself. I know I may have asked some of these before, but I am still not clear on how to proceed...
Which locker is more important: the front or the rear? I have read that a lot of people leave the rear as an open diff, and lock only the front.
I am still analyzing my locker situation, and I know I want either an ARB or OX for the rear (at some point in the Jeep's life), but I am not sure what to do for the front... Since my D30 is a 2 piece axle, theoretically, I could put an automatic locker and still have an open diff until I use 4WD, right? And will this make the front axle turn? I think it will, but I am not sure... If this is a possibility, and I were to use a Detroit Locker up front, would it click with the axle disconnected?
By the way, will a locked up D30 hold up OK to 33's? I plan to replace the rear to a Ford 8.8 before I lock it up, so that should not be an issue...
Thanks!
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A lot of people report being very happy with an automatic locker in the front with your setup.
Based on my research and consevative reliability-first bias, I would put the locker in the D30 with 33's only with upgraded alloy axles. Of course, this would eliminate the central axle disconnect and then I don't know what effect it would have for on-road use. Let's see what the experts recommend...
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i have had OX lockers front and rear for years, no problems ever with 33" on my stock axles. :biggrin: having the selectability is great in my DD, offroading I do try to drive with more "finesse" than skinny pedal (I hate broken parts) But, I'd say go for it.
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Hey, guys, I got a bunch of questions for you; sorry for the long list, but I want to educate myself. I know I may have asked some of these before, but I am still not clear on how to proceed...
Which locker is more important: the front or the rear? I have read that a lot of people leave the rear as an open diff, and lock only the front.
I am still analyzing my locker situation, and I know I want either an ARB or OX for the rear (at some point in the Jeep's life), but I am not sure what to do for the front... Since my D30 is a 2 piece axle, theoretically, I could put an automatic locker and still have an open diff until I use 4WD, right? And will this make the front axle turn? I think it will, but I am not sure... If this is a possibility, and I were to use a Detroit Locker up front, would it click with the axle disconnected?
By the way, will a locked up D30 hold up OK to 33's? I plan to replace the rear to a Ford 8.8 before I lock it up, so that should not be an issue...
Thanks!
I've have always locked by axles at the same time as that was when I regeared them. However, 1 XJ was with ARBs. When offroad, I had locked the rear and only the front when necessary. But this is not what typically a locker is. With any manual locker, you are basically spooling the axle shafts together. They will both rotate at the same speed and there will be no variance between them. There is no give and release like that of an automatic locker. Mind you, in particular offroad situations, depending on the vehicle itself, spooling the axle will help or hinder the position which the vehicle is in. Thus with a spooled rear axle, the vehicle is pushed straight and against the turned front tires. The turn is rather wide. If you do the same to the front, I could only imagine the width. I've got auto-lunch lockers and at times do have to 3-4-5 point turns to get around something that if I was open, probably turn right around it. But I do like the lockers for the wheeling I do on the trails.
Now, you have a 2-pce front axle? Is this the axle in the TJ? Only Jeep vehicle I know of relative to 2pce axles is the quick disconnect axle of the YJ and XJ. A vacuum switch is on the tcase so when the 4wd was engaged, the switch valve would allow the engine's vacuum engage the passenger side axle shaft with a floating collar.
Theoretically, auto lockers engage only from the input of the ds, thus the pinion. There are still some effects just cause it's in the diff casing and this you can notice on the street. But there is very little influence from a front axle with one without being in 4wd or having the hubs unlocked. TJs don't have hubs. Thus the axle rotates as the tire rotates.
For the size tires, 33s, locking the front D30 would have no problem.
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Now, you have a 2-pce front axle? Is this the axle in the TJ? Only Jeep vehicle I know of relative to 2pce axles is the quick disconnect axle of the YJ and XJ. A vacuum switch is on the tcase so when the 4wd was engaged, the switch valve would allow the engine's vacuum engage the passenger side axle shaft with a floating collar.
Mine is a '94 YJ, as stated in the signature. Still has the stock axles... I thought about allow axles, but since I am planning to change the rear to an 8.8, I dont want to invest in the rear axle at all. But I dont know if it is worth it to change the front axle to an allow given the power of the 2.5L. But I do want to increase traction and avoid breakage (I have seen many locked D30's breack in 4.0L Jeeps back at home when locked with an OX lockaer).
Felipe
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Ive had a Lock-Rite locker in the front for about 6 months now. Cant even tell its there in 2wd, and works great in 4x4....
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Now, you have a 2-pce front axle? Is this the axle in the TJ? Only Jeep vehicle I know of relative to 2pce axles is the quick disconnect axle of the YJ and XJ. A vacuum switch is on the tcase so when the 4wd was engaged, the switch valve would allow the engine's vacuum engage the passenger side axle shaft with a floating collar.
Mine is a '94 YJ, as stated in the signature. Still has the stock axles... I thought about allow axles, but since I am planning to change the rear to an 8.8, I dont want to invest in the rear axle at all. But I dont know if it is worth it to change the front axle to an allow given the power of the 2.5L. But I do want to increase traction and avoid breakage (I have seen many locked D30's breack in 4.0L Jeeps back at home when locked with an OX lockaer).
Felipe
Doh!!!! I don't see the signature when responding. No problem.
If anything, the vacuum disconnect is troublesome. The lines are plastic and you are working with vacuum so depending on the overall condition of the lines and how much debri is in them, you could have a functioning quick disconnect or not. There is a kit that eliminates the vacuum in favor of a cable operation. But you still have pieces which torque has to transfer through. There is also another kit that eliminates the 2-pc with a replacement of a single axle shaft. You could look for the shafts for a late model XJ (Cherokee). You'll need both the inner and outer as I believe the u-joint is bigger than your YJ. Your YJ should have 260 size u-joints which are considered to be on the small side, even for a 4cyl Jeep. Stepping up to the 297 or 760 ujoints is a better step for the front axle. I'd suggest that you locate a newer XJ front axle, remove the shafts and use them. Then resell the XJ housing as its a bonus for the TJ guys. Its a complete bolt in for them (except aligning), has reverse rotation pinion setting for better ds clearance and everything bolted on the TJ housing will transfer over, so to speak. Aligning a TJ with a XJ axle, you have to have adjusting arms. The TJ alignment is done on the axle at the lower control arm mount. On an XJ, the alignment is performed on the frame mount of the lower control arm.
Again for the locker operation, you could go expensive and get manual installed, or go cheap for now till you can regear and install the 8.8 for matching gears and lockers. Lunch box lockers are easily installed and removed. You only replace 4 little gears in the case. Nothing else. Under $300 for new ones, used get go for less than half. On used, install new pins and springs ($25) and you should be good to go. I suggest that you try the lunch box locker for a feel about them. If you can locate someone with them already installed, ask to drive the vehicle on the street.
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Thanks, Jagular. I think I'll try that XJ shaft you mentioned... There is a U-Pick about 10 blocks from home, and they had some XJ's last time I went, although I did not check which years. By the way, I assume I need to get the Front Shaft balanced to get this to work, right?
As for the luchbox lockers, how are they in mud? You think they will get damaged? I rather not spend in them if I do not plan to keep them, as I prefer to save up and get what I will ultimately keep in the rig...
Felipe
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we have lunch box (lock rightes) front and rear in our cj3a and they work great in the mud.. all 4 tires spin and you get thought. haven't had any troubles with them yet. (had them for 10 years)
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They do fin ein the mud... I was buried up to the bottom of my seats in mud/water and stalled, started back up and pulled out with the Lock-rite...
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Weld the front, get a cable-pull central axle disco from loc-rite...
And baby it up stuff... Crawl it.
SOme say it will pull to the left, but I don't notice it with the left,right , left pull I have (death wobble)
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I vonte for a lunchbox locker in the front. They're easy to install and a simple design. They just replace the spider and side gears in your carrier. The mud will not affect them at all. I would put a selectable locker in the rear, so that it can be disconnected when not needed. You'll still be able to turn in 4WD, and you won't get the wear issues on your tires. With a one piece axle upgrade you will have plenty of strength in that HP30 for 33s, I run a lunchbox locker in my D30 with 35s, and mine's a low pinion. I would also go with the full case locker in your 8.8 in order to replace the carrier, which is a known weak point in the axle. All in all, you'll have a stout jeep that'll go anywhere you want it to.
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Your stock axles will handle 33" tires. I ran my stock YJ axles for years with Lincoln Lockers front and rear. I had a manual vacuum switch to control the front disconnect, works the same as a cable, so I could go to 3wd to make offroad turns easier.
The lincoln lockers are easier on the axles than an automatic lockers. All too often I've seen auto lockers lock up under wheel spin and snap the axleshafts. There is no axle snapping lockup of a lincoln locker to shear the axleshafts.
As for which to lock first, your biggest advantage would be to lock the rear due to weight transfer. Weight is transfered to the rear the majority of the time when offroad, and will give you the best opportunity for traction.
I'd weld the rear, and either weld the front or install a lunchbox locker.
Check your front driveshaft for welded on weights, chances are it is balanced and you can run a lincoln locker or a 1piece axleshaft on the pass. side.
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I have a buddy with a high pinion 30 running an Ox and he absolutely loves it. He put a e-locker in the rear which when not engaged is actually a limited slip. He hardly uses the rear locker because of this. He has the 8.8 in the rear and is running 37's.
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have 1995 yj 32s with stock axles. Aussie lunchbox locker in the front D30 - works great!
rears tend to sheer easier with stock crap 35c rear from what i have read. go with the front locker and you'll be HAPPY!
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Have you thought about a detroit true trac front and rear? They work really nice offroad, and for daily driving they cant be beat.
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That's another option... How does it perform in mud, which is what I will see mostly?
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Have you thought about a detroit true trac front and rear? They work really nice offroad, and for daily driving they cant be beat.
Unless you really need lockers. :wall:
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Unless you really need lockers. :wall:
So what would your advice be, Jeffy? I was thinking of an automatic locker up front and a selectable locker on back (OX most likely), but what would you recommend? I would love to go OX front and back, but then again, the OX is a los more $$$... And ARB, although I like them, are beyond my budget...
Felipe
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put a limited slip up front while you save money!
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So, which brand would you guys recommend? Detroit True Trac?
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I test drove Ram Charger with true tracs front and rear and there where no noticeable steering issues so I think putting a True Trac in front is a solid recommendation. Maybe start with that and then put an OX in the rear (cheaper than an ARB).
I will probably leave my YJ open in front and go with OX or ARB in back in about a year.
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So what would your advice be, Jeffy? I was thinking of an automatic locker up front and a selectable locker on back (OX most likely), but what would you recommend? I would love to go OX front and back, but then again, the OX is a los more $$$... And ARB, although I like them, are beyond my budget...
Felipe
If you're going to be taking this to S. America, keep it simple.
I'd go with a LockRight up front and a Detroit in the rear.
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In talking with my Russian buddy, it seems that his advice would be something like a detroit true trac in the rear and good tires works better than anything on muddy trails. A regular detroit will push you straight in the mud overiding the steering. Detroits are great for anything but slick muddy trails
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In talking with my Russian buddy, it seems that his advice would be something like a detroit true trac in the rear and good tires works better than anything on muddy trails. A regular detroit will push you straight in the mud overiding the steering. Detroits are great for anything but slick muddy trails
So Russian's know best? I don't follow.
I run a spool in the back and there's no problem with spool overriding the steering. Detroits are solid and reliable, pretty expensive, and a downright nuiscance with the constant locking/unlocking on the road. Feels like somebody hitting beneath the tub with a 5lb sledge or worse.
Where you're gonna be wheelin, go with strength and reliability. Remember KISS.
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from my experience in the mud our lock rights front and rear don't override our turning in mud at all. tires are important throw the new super swamper tsl's on my grandpas jeep can back out in most situations when you get stuck where as after the edges round they don't grip nearly as much. id say both lockers and tires are almost equally important in mud
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For the tires, I have a couple of buddies that are very happy with their BFG MT's, so I am thinking about going in that direction... In fact, since I got plenty of thread left over in the 31" HT's, I am thinking about waiting until september and seeing if the MT's KM2 come out in 33 12.50 R15...
On the locker side, I am thinking about OX in the rear and an automatic on the front (to keep cost down). But the rig will be driven on the street, so that is why I am not doing a spool... Besides, from what I have read, a spool is harder on the axle than a limited slip, and the D30 is still stock, so I am thinking about something not as hard on the axles as a spool. (Is this even true, by the way? I read it online, but what's your experience, Bounty?)
Here in Miami, the Jeep will not see any mud (it's just a daily driver), but in Panama, it will be driven on-road to the trails (a couple of hours worth each way) and in the trails, so it is important that it be reliable... A lot of people do run Super Swampers and IROKs there, but since it rains A LOT in Panama, I am thinking the extra grip off road may not be worth it if the rig becomes dangerous to drive in the rain...
Felipe
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My rig's a daily driver with spools front and rear, and before the D44's it was daily driver on the stock axles with f/r lincoln lockers. A spool is more streetable than you think. While not for everybody, it is a viable option for the best in traction and reliability.
I drive my YJ around St. Louis in the rain and snow with no problems out of the spool. You have to know how to drive it, pretty obvious that too much throttle in a slick curve and you'll quickly be looking at where you just came from.
If you're thinking selectables, check out the electrics that are a limited slip when unlocked.
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If you're thinking selectables, check out the electrics that are a limited slip when unlocked.
I was looking at the ECTED ones... Looks interesting. But I read (I think it was in JP magazine) that they are a bit fragile... Maybe with the 2.5L it will be enough, though.
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When you put any lockers in your have noticeable driveabilty changes. Your driving style has to evolve with your jeep. Even if you put a selectable locker in! When you engage it it will drive different. I've seen many guys try to keep driving the same as if they had open diffs. after they put lockers in only to find themselves side ways on the trail or broke down. When you do put lockers in take some time to re-learn your jeep it'll take less with the right foot and more with grey matter. Good luck.
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I was looking at the ECTED ones... Looks interesting. But I read (I think it was in JP magazine) that they are a bit fragile... Maybe with the 2.5L it will be enough, though.
There seems to be some issues on their D30 ECTED locker from what I have read online... To be honest, I would REALLY like to use ARB lockers, but the cost is prohibitive (even moreif you factor in the on-board air!). I may go with the lock rights up front and decide something else for the rea at a later time. I still got time, though, as I dont have the cash right now to purchase lockers anyway!
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In my truck I run a Detroit Locker in the rear, and a T-Locker in the front. I went with the detroit because well they will not break and they provide great traction. I have run them in jeeps to and I have no complaints. Yes they do clunk a bit but most lockers do make some noise anyway, I just got used to the noise but it may bother some people.
The T-Locker is also as tough as nails and built to last it is air actuated but not like the ARB is, it is closer to the way the OX locker is actuated.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-T_locker/
In my experience welding the spider gears (Lincoln Locker) works great for traction, but as a former trade welder I know that its a time bomb waiting to go off. While you may get by without it ever breaking it will eventually fail, this is because the spider gears are hardened steel. This makes it impossible to get a good long term weld, by welding them you will also make the steel brittle. I do like the Lincoln Locker but it would worry me for reliability, but it is likely it will never break on you.
I agree with having to change your driving style with lockers, especially if you live in a climate that you see ice and snow. Lockers in the rear are a bit of a change when driving in snow, but the front locker in ice and snow can be dangerous if you are not ready for the big change in driving characteristics.