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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: gomi on January 19, 2008, 05:49:20 PM
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So this morning I get to go to work and my jeep won't start. I should probably note that it has been cold here and I had not driven her in two days. At the first turn of the key, the engine did not turn over but I could hear the starter clicking. After a few more tries she began to try to turn over but would not start. After work I tried it again and found that if I hold down the gas pedal a little it started up but would immediatley shut off when I took my foot off the gas. After holding the pedal for a minute or two she stayed running, I took her for a drive around the block and noticed that she would idle roughly every now and again while at a stop. Took her back home and she started up normally, but if I pressed the gas pedal to rev it up a bit, when I took my foot off the pedal rpms would dip down very low to the point where she would almost stall. At one point I noticed that she must have lost power because my radio presets and memory were lost. The battery is a year old and the alternator was replaced three years ago. Any ideas? Thanks for any help you boys can give me.
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How cold is "cold"? Could be fuel line freeze up - if it's really freakin' cold out... just a guess.
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How cold is "cold"? Could be fuel line freeze up - if it's really freakin' cold out... just a guess.
it's been around lower 20's out, supposed to get colder tomorrow.
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Have the battery tested as well as check the battery cable connections at the battery as well as on the starter and the negative cable at the frame and from frame to engine. Loosing your radia memory settings indicates loss of battery power this will also cause the low idle since the computer has to relearn. Mine does that every time I disconnect the battery for welding
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Strange that it will start up with the throttle applied. That's sort of like when the Throttle Position Sensor is disconnected. Try doing this and see if there are codes. http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=3419.0
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Cold weather tends to kill marginal batteries. Check the electrolyte levels if you can, add distilled water to bring up any cells that are low. Put the battery on a charger and see if it will take a charge. If yes, then have it load tested as suggested. A load tester is basically a resistor that simulates the load of a starter, and you measure the voltage drop as the resistance is applied. If the battery is good, clean the battery terminals and posts and make sure everything is tight.
When the RPMs are up, your alternator is generating more current, which could be making up for the weak battery.
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id say battery. we had our gc not start this morning. but it was -10 outside.
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I should also mention if it gets cold enough to freeze take a look at your battery. Most batteries have sulfuric acid in them. Sulfuric acid is mostly water and if it gets cold enough to freeze you could see poor performance and it could actually rupture the case of the battery. You can sometimes see ice crystals inside the battery if it has a opaque case.
Also, since it started I would assume that the battery had enough power to start up. Once the engine is running, it should be running off the alternator, not the battery. Since you said it died unless you held the throttle, that make me believe there is something wrong with the Throttle Position Sensor. If you disconnect it on a otherwise, OK, engine, it will do exactly what you're saying. Ie., die if there is no throttle input. Again though, check the PCM/Computer to see if it stored any error codes. Also take a look at the battery. You might want to first disconnect the battery and clean up the terminals with some baking soda and a wire toothbrush while you're at it. Electrical issues can be a PITA and leaving you stranded in winter isn't something you want to happen.
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I replaced the battery since it was still under warranty, and she started right up. Has been running like normal ever since so I am hoping this was the problem. I probably should have gotten a better battery to start off with but spent like $40 on it which explains why it probably only lasted a year without problems. Thanks for all of the help guys. :doggy:
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I replaced the battery since it was still under warranty, and she started right up. Has been running like normal ever since so I am hoping this was the problem. I probably should have gotten a better battery to start off with but spent like $40 on it which explains why it probably only lasted a year without problems. Thanks for all of the help guys. :doggy:
Some di-electric grease on the terminals of your new battery would be a good idea, especially if it sits a lot. It's pretty common on stored vehicles to have no start conditions after they sit for a while due to corrosion. Taking off the battery cables and cleaning the terminals and cable ends usually solves the problem - coating both with dielectric grease keeps it from happening again.
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I had a similar problem with having to hold the throttle pedal down but only after my battery was COMPLETELY drained. My wife left the headlights on for 8 hours straight. I think the ecm resets or something similar when the battery is totally drained . I held the throttle down for about 2 minutes at about 1000 r.p.m. I took my foot off the pedal and it ran fine. The battery was pretty shot after that and needed to be replaced. I replaced it with an Optima Red Top.
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I was thinking about getting an optima myself, the battery I bought didn't make it for an entire year, but it was a cheapy so.
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I was thinking about getting an optima myself, the battery I bought didn't make it for an entire year, but it was a cheapy so.
Did they at least replace it for free?
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update! Same problem happened again to me yesterday. First key turn nothing, no cranking,power,anything. Then after a few key turns the power and everything slowly begins to get going and if I give her a bit of gas she'll stay running but you have to hold down the pedal for a few minutes. I was late for work so my dad brought her in for me. He took it to pepboys and they told him he needed a new fuel pump, IAC, fuel pump modulator, fuel filter and a few more things. My poor pops went ahead and did it for me even though I told him to wait till I hear back from the boys at 4banger. Total cost.....$1099 wtf! guess what, same thing happened to me this morning so I guess they did not fix it. Took it back and left her for a few hours, just got her back and the mechanic told me he "just hit the switch on the ignition"?? and "it should be okay now". I sort of got upset and told him that that sounded like he did not know what was wrong and got my dad to spend $1099 on nothing. Any ideas?? :'(
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update! Same problem happened again to me yesterday. First key turn nothing, no cranking,power,anything. Then after a few key turns the power and everything slowly begins to get going and if I give her a bit of gas she'll stay running but you have to hold down the pedal for a few minutes. I was late for work so my dad brought her in for me. He took it to pepboys and they told him he needed a new fuel pump, IAC, fuel pump modulator, fuel filter and a few more things. My poor pops went ahead and did it for me even though I told him to wait till I hear back from the boys at 4banger. Total cost.....$1099 wtf! guess what, same thing happened to me this morning so I guess they did not fix it. Took it back and left her for a few hours, just got her back and the mechanic told me he "just hit the switch on the ignition"?? and "it should be okay now". I sort of got upset and told him that that sounded like he did not know what was wrong and got my dad to spend $1099 on nothing. Any ideas?? :'(
Yeah, sounds like they just threw parts at it and it happened to fix itself by that time. I'd check the battery connection again. How cold is it there? Overnight? The clicking is a sign of not getting enough power. And according to dexetr30, it seems the TJ's don't like drained batteries and start throwing fits. You might want to check the battery cables themselves to see if there is any corrosion anyplace. This is a real problem with some cheap batteries with screw on terminals as they tend to vent at the terminals, it eats at the connector. I think the TJ uses clamps though. Still a good idea to check.
Oh and what kind of battery do you have? Pict? might help too.
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I've got a wallymart everready that was replaced under warranty. There is no corrosion on the terminals, they are almost new looking. I am wonderng if it could be an alternator problem. It has been warm here lately 35-40 degrees, In all honesty I think the guy at pepboys really did think it was a fuel problem, he looked kind of sad when I got angry at him and sort had a dumb, confused, scared face. I forgot to mentioned that when it happened before the repairs, the CEL came on. He did mention today that there were no codes coming up. I am waiting to hear back from their manager about a refund or something but I doubt it.
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I've got a wallymart everready that was replaced under warranty. There is no corrosion on the terminals, they are almost new looking. I am wonderng if it could be an alternator problem. It has been warm here lately 35-40 degrees, In all honesty I think the guy at pepboys really did think it was a fuel problem, he looked kind of sad when I got angry at him and sort had a dumb, confused, scared face. I forgot to mentioned that when it happened before the repairs, the CEL came on. He did mention today that there were no codes coming up. I am waiting to hear back from their manager about a refund or something but I doubt it.
What does your volt meter read? It should read 12v when the engine isn't running and should jump to 14.3-7ish when the engine starts up. You can usually hear a whining when the alternator is stressed and is trying to charge a dead or really low battery. If you take the alternator off you can have it tested for free at many auto parts stores.
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Might also want to check the frame and engine ground straps. Can't imagine letting the monkeys at pep boys do anything more complex than change oil, might want to bring it to the dealer next time.
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Might also want to check the frame and engine ground straps. Can't imagine letting the monkeys at pep boys do anything more complex than change oil, might want to bring it to the dealer next time.
:confused: I was at my folks house at the time and ended up using one of their cars. I think my dad was just trying to be a dad an take it in for me since I've been really busy. He couldn't take it to the dealer without an appointment and was determined to get it done. It was really sweet of him though, I just feel bad because he picked up the tab. I'll try to crawl around and check the fram and engine straps. I assume damage would be pretty obvious no?
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:confused: I was at my folks house at the time and ended up using one of their cars. I think my dad was just trying to be a dad an take it in for me since I've been really busy. He couldn't take it to the dealer without an appointment and was determined to get it done. It was really sweet of him though, I just feel bad because he picked up the tab. I'll try to crawl around and check the fram and engine straps. I assume damage would be pretty obvious no?
If it's corrosion then yes, you'd be able to spot it easily. Well, easy enough. Since a new battery fixed it last time I'd guess it's the wiring close to the battery though.
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If it's corrosion then yes, you'd be able to spot it easily. Well, easy enough. Since a new battery fixed it last time I'd guess it's the wiring close to the battery though.
I hope so, is there anything else that might be causing these symptoms. Alternator, starter etc? I also wonder what I can do about pep boys and a refund. Might have to just file a dispute with the credit card company.
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I hope so, is there anything else that might be causing these symptoms. Alternator, starter etc? I also wonder what I can do about pep boys and a refund. Might have to just file a dispute with the credit card company.
Depends on the laws in your state and what your dad agreed to. In mn you need a written estimate and if they exceed it by 10% they have to get permission first or eat the difference.
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I hope so, is there anything else that might be causing these symptoms. Alternator, starter etc? I also wonder what I can do about pep boys and a refund. Might have to just file a dispute with the credit card company.
Well, a weak or dying starter will also click. It won't matter if you have a charged battery or not. You might try cleaning off your starter. If they throw salt on the roads you could have some corrosion on there. Just be careful since 12v positive is sent to the starter and if you tap the terminal with something metal you could cause the started to start up. Cleaning it with a brush and some cleaner/degreaser shouldn't be a problem.
Also, do you know what the battery rating is? I'd hope they didn't cheap out and put a lower grade battery in there. I think stock is around 600 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA).
Some tools to think about:
Battery charger - It will help you diagnose electrical issues.
Multi-meter - You can check the voltage or amps on any electrical circuit.
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I am with Jeffy, buy a digital voltmeter. Check voltage while cranking should stay above 9.5 volts at the battery.
If that is hood check it at the starter while cranking. You can also set it on the 1 volt scale and measure across all connections to see what the voltage drop is across each connection. should be no more than 0.2 volts for each connection. Also check output voltage of the alternator should be in the range ot 13-14 volts.
That is a test of your whole electrical system in a nutshell
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Yeah, sounds like they just threw parts at it and it happened to fix itself by that time. I'd check the battery connection again. How cold is it there? Overnight? The clicking is a sign of not getting enough power. And according to dexetr30, it seems the TJ's don't like drained batteries and start throwing fits. You might want to check the battery cables themselves to see if there is any corrosion anyplace. This is a real problem with some cheap batteries with screw on terminals as they tend to vent at the terminals, it eats at the connector. I think the TJ uses clamps though. Still a good idea to check.
Oh and what kind of battery do you have? Pict? might help too.
Don't forget to test the cable themselves. Disconnect both ends and do a voltage drop test with a goor Ohm meter. Sometimes the connectors won't show any signs of corrosion but the actual cable will have enough corrosion under the insulation to cause a lot of resistance. Resistance equal heat and heat helps break down the wires. Also check for abnormal swelling of the cables.
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I hope so, is there anything else that might be causing these symptoms. Alternator, starter etc? I also wonder what I can do about pep boys and a refund. Might have to just file a dispute with the credit card company.
I had the same troubles you are having a few months back. Turned out the starter was bad. I replaced it and the problem is gone. As far as pep boys goes... I wouldn't let them put air in my tires. Sometimes it's better to make an appointment with the dealer and wait a few days or so. If you have a dealership that you trust, it's far better than throwing cash away at pep boys. Seems as though pep boys likes to fix the symptoms rather than the cause.
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my wifes cherokee did the samething when I was in the hospital. Figured it was the battery and had her get a new one 2 days later samething. After two batteries and alot of cussing found out that it was the altenator. Even though it was checked at a parts store and I was told it was good. My dad told me to replace it anyways, not horrible to have an extra altenator. Put the new one on and havent had a problem yet. That was two years ago that it happened to me.
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my wifes cherokee did the samething when I was in the hospital. Figured it was the battery and had her get a new one 2 days later samething. After two batteries and alot of cussing found out that it was the altenator. Even though it was checked at a parts store and I was told it was good. My dad told me to replace it anyways, not horrible to have an extra altenator. Put the new one on and havent had a problem yet. That was two years ago that it happened to me.
interesting, I just checked it today and it was reading good. Maybe I'll throw a new one in, and hope fpr the best. I have to wait until monday to talk to the manager at pep boys about what they can do since they did not really fix my problem.
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Arrrgggg!!! okay, I think I am going to lose it. So I went out to fill my gas tank and now have a new pepboys related problem. Turns out that after filling my tank it reads in between 3/4 and full instead of all the way full. I can't even begin to express my frustration, now I have to bring my jeep back to bo-yah!! I have to go back there and have them look at me like I am an idiot because I'm a woman. I may not be a mechanic, but I can sure as hell learn how to do things for myself. This is part of the reason why my dad took it there in the first place. He still can't seem to understand why I would want to try to take care of it myself, just because he doesn't like to get his hands greasy doesn't mean that I can't. I don't no if I can ever fully explain to you boys how pissed I get when a room full of idiot, no load, dipshit mechanics look at you like you can't possibly challenge them because you can't pee standing up. Sorry for being so pissed, thank you all for trying to help me. I really appreciate it.
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Oops, when they replaced the fuel pump sounds like they put in one for the "bigger" tank.
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Oops, when they replaced the fuel pump sounds like they put in one for the "bigger" tank.
Just looked and it appears that both 2.5L and 4.0L use the same pump. Maybe just messed up the level sender when they changed it.
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Oops, when they replaced the fuel pump sounds like they put in one for the "bigger" tank.
If that's the case she might want to do the 15 to 20 conversion.
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I still would start from the battery on what is the battery voltage when the problem occurs if its to low nothing will work right. Even if it crancks there is a good change the injectors, fuel pump and ecm will not work. We have this problem woth 4.3 gm;s when the battery is low it will still crank and the ignition works but no fuel injectors. This might be what fooled the Pep boys guys. Get a digital voltmeter and start investigating or take it to a competent repair shop
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I still would start from the battery on what is the battery voltage when the problem occurs if its to low nothing will work right. Even if it crancks there is a good change the injectors, fuel pump and ecm will not work. We have this problem woth 4.3 gm;s when the battery is low it will still crank and the ignition works but no fuel injectors. This might be what fooled the Pep boys guys. Get a digital voltmeter and start investigating or take it to a competent repair shop
Got a voltmeter, the battery reads 13 and a little over 14v with the jeep running. It's a new battery though, I replaced it when the problem initially occured.
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Got a voltmeter, the battery reads 13 and a little over 14v with the jeep running. It's a new battery though, I replaced it when the problem initially occured.
Now, what you'll want to do is follow the red positive cable and check the voltage on it. You can use the frame as a ground as you move along. You want to head towards the starter. If you still get 12-13v on the lines then I'd suspect the starter. Like I said before, try cleaning it off and see if it works. The terminals are exposed on the starter, especially the ground which has a braided strap that will collect crap.
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Let us know when you find the problem. Seems a lot of us have similar problems and posting your results would be helpful.
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Quick update as to my progress. In regards to the gas tank problem I just spoke to the manager at pepboys. It turns out that they did in fact put in the sending unit to the 19gal instead of 15gal. Since they screwed up my diagnosis I came to an agreement that i would pay for all of the parts at their cost and they would refund the labor. Seems fair I suppose, as for the problem I still can't seem to figure it out. At this point I think I will use the refunded $$ to go ahead and buy a new starter and alternator and replace one, wait to see if it happens again, then replace the other and go from there. Sucks, but at least I don't have to worry about replacing a crap load of parts any time soon. I'll try testing the voltage up and down the lines in a few days wehn it isn't 10 degrees out.
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Quick update as to my progress. In regards to the gas tank problem I just spoke to the manager at pepboys. It turns out that they did in fact put in the sending unit to the 19gal instead of 15gal. Since they screwed up my diagnosis I came to an agreement that i would pay for all of the parts at their cost and they would refund the labor. Seems fair I suppose, as for the problem I still can't seem to figure it out. At this point I think I will use the refunded $$ to go ahead and buy a new starter and alternator and replace one, wait to see if it happens again, then replace the other and go from there. Sucks, but at least I don't have to worry about replacing a crap load of parts any time soon. I'll try testing the voltage up and down the lines in a few days wehn it isn't 10 degrees out.
Well if the battery is staying charged then it's probably not the alternator. If the alternator is bad you'd be running off the battery alone, till it dies. I'd suspect either corroded wiring or the starter.
When you get a chance you can do the 15to20 gallon snip, then the gauge will read correct.
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Quick update as to my progress. In regards to the gas tank problem I just spoke to the manager at pepboys. It turns out that they did in fact put in the sending unit to the 19gal instead of 15gal. Since they screwed up my diagnosis I came to an agreement that i would pay for all of the parts at their cost and they would refund the labor. Seems fair I suppose, as for the problem I still can't seem to figure it out. At this point I think I will use the refunded $$ to go ahead and buy a new starter and alternator and replace one, wait to see if it happens again, then replace the other and go from there. Sucks, but at least I don't have to worry about replacing a crap load of parts any time soon. I'll try testing the voltage up and down the lines in a few days wehn it isn't 10 degrees out.
If you are going to change the alternator, you may want to consider upgrading it to something a bit more powerful, so that you can run an e-fan in the future (dont remember if you already do); but I agree with Jeffy, and I doubt that is the cause of your problem because the battery is not being drained...
When you get a chance you can do the 15to20 gallon snip, then the gauge will read correct.
This is really easy to do (will take you about one hour), and since you already got the 19 gal sending unit, it will be like you always had the 19 gal tank (mine reads full for about 100 miles then starts to drop!).
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Well if the battery is staying charged then it's probably not the alternator. If the alternator is bad you'd be running off the battery alone, till it dies. I'd suspect either corroded wiring or the starter.
When you get a chance you can do the 15to20 gallon snip, then the gauge will read correct.
good thoughts, I am not going to do the gallon snip, they are going to change it for me since it's thier mistake. On second thought, maybe thats not such a good idea :eek:. I am going to probably test the lines a bit more and then try the starter.
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If you're going to do the starter yourself make sure you have the proper torx socket. The two bolts for the starter are female e-torx bolts. I think it's an e-12 if memory serves correctly.
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good thoughts, I am not going to do the gallon snip, they are going to change it for me since it's thier mistake. On second thought, maybe thats not such a good idea :eek:.
You know this will increase your tank capacity for free, right? And since you already have the 19 gal gauge, it will even read right... Think about it; going to the gas station less often (granted, it will be more expensive to fill up, but it's not like your spending more on gas and you can always not fill it up the whole way) and having more range on the Jeep...
Anyway, just a thought!
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If you're going to do the starter yourself make sure you have the proper torx socket. The two bolts for the starter are female e-torx bolts. I think it's an e-12 if memory serves correctly.
Thanks, that's going to be helpful, now if only it would get a bit warmer around here.