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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: stan98tj on December 03, 2008, 07:50:05 PM
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anyone have results they'd like to post with the 62 throttle body. im real interested in this mod. hp?mpgs?response? this would be goin on my 2.5 which has a cold air intake and TBspacer-hope this TB wont be too much for the 4banger???
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anyone have results they'd like to post with the 62 throttle body. im real interested in this mod. hp?mpgs?response? this would be goin on my 2.5 which has a cold air intake and TBspacer-hope this TB wont be too much for the 4banger???
I just ordered one. It'll be a few weeks until I get it on. I'm curious myself. Mine is pretty much stock just a air intake tube.
I think you will need to replace your TB spacer with a 62mm one. Your stock one will act as a restrictor.
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works well on mine except for some small starting issues, i think thats just a tinkering issue
you will notice a way quicker throttle responce. and att he higher rmp there is some more give for sure. also a bit of a gas saver.
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works well on mine except for some small starting issues, i think thats just a tinkering issue
you will notice a way quicker throttle responce. and att he higher rmp there is some more give for sure. also a bit of a gas saver.
What kind of starting issues?
How long have you been running it mileage wise?
I thought that the mileage would go down. More air in, computer adjust the fuel mixture for more fuel= less mileage.
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I thought that the mileage would go down. More air in, computer adjust the fuel mixture for more fuel= less mileage.
Not necessarily. More torque/HP will allow you to let off the throttle a bit which means you'll won't have to rev as high to maintain speed.
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Not necessarily. More torque/HP will allow you to let off the throttle a bit which means you'll won't have to rev as high to maintain speed.
Gotcha, in theory that makes sence.
Is there a point where you get to much air for the size motor? Maybe causing issues with running properly at lower RPM's or idelling? (sp)
The computer should adjust for proper fuel ratio so you shouldn't be to rich or to lean. Right?
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Gotcha, in theory that makes sence.
Is there a point where you get to much air for the size motor? Maybe causing issues with running properly at lower RPM's or idelling? (sp)
The computer should adjust for proper fuel ratio so you shouldn't be to rich or to lean. Right?
14.7:1 air/fuel is the optimal ratio, I believe. Your CC would put a limit on that. I think timing would also limit it since you can't let it burn indefinitely either. You want a complete burn but you also want it to be done before the next stroke starts.
I think I'm going to separate this stuff from the sale.
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14.7:1 air/fuel is the optimal ratio, I believe. Your CC would put a limit on that. I think timing would also limit it since you can't let it burn indefinitely either. You want a complete burn but you also want it to be done before the next stroke starts.
I think I'm going to separate this stuff from the sale.
I didn't want to mess up the For Sale thread, but this is good info for people who are thinking about buying or have the same questions.
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Thanks Jeffy, good idea on splitting threads.
It's been my experience that mileage and power gradually improve over the matter of a few weeks as the computer learns to adjust for the increase in airflow. You will notice it right away, but you will see benefits improve over time.
I've never had a problem with all the 62mm TB's I've personally installed. The only problems I've seen have been few and far in between and usually related to improper installation or a bad sensor.
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soon as i determine if i cant keep my AEM with the 62mm and if that wont be too much air for it handle ill let ya know and more than likely ill get one. its the end of a very long and hard semester here at the academy and the jeep bug just came back to visit me. :brick:
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Although I don't have the 62MM TB (Plan on getting one at some point) I have installed a stock 4.0 TB and noticed a difference right away. I have no problem towing at 65-70 if I want (on flat highway anyway :) ) and definitely saw a HUGE jump in mileage and power. I can run 80 down the highway all day if I want, and if I keep my speed below 70 I can get 20 MPG out of my rig, if not then damn near that anyway. Numerous people at my buddy's shop give me crap about having a 4 banger and how slow it is, I just tell them they haven't driven it or even rode in it so they have no room to talk :smokes:
It did take my rig a week or two for it to fully learn the new TB, mileage was way up within 2 weeks and power was noticeable right away. I plan on adding a spacer sometime in the near future as well as a couple other small mods to compensate for the extra air. The best thing you can do for an engine is let it breath!
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I don't buy into the idea of 'too much' air, unless it is forced induction and the fuel system/computer can't keep up with it. With normal aspiration the engine is only going to breath in the amount of air it can use.
I run a 62mm TB and matching spacer, with a TJ 4.0 airtube and conical K&N on the end. It doesn't flow much more unless you remove the tube and filter completely. No problems here.
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As Jeffy said, 14.7:1 is the ideal stoichiometric air:fuel ratio for gasoline (100% burn). However, talking to my ricer friends at work, they say this would be too lean and the ideal ratio for a car is 12:1. The unburnt fuel helps keeps cylinder temps down to a safe level. As one says,"Remember, it's always fastest right before it blows!" They run wide band O2 sensors and carefully guard against lean conditions, but they all run big turbos. I'm sure our NA engines are a slightly different story. How far can we go with intakes, TBs, TBSs, ignition, and exhaust before fuel delivery lags and becomes unsafe?
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im with bounty hunter. because this is not forced induction the jeep will take in the same amount of air no?
thus larger tb and intake are just allowing for easier breathing. spacers may have a different inpacke since they allow the air to travel faster. (some stupied physics there but the same concept as headers, the longer the faster the air moves in at high rpm)
but i could be totally wrong. since its 3 am after working/ drinking at the bar.
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im with bounty hunter. because this is not forced induction the jeep will take in the same amount of air no?
thus larger tb and intake are just allowing for easier breathing. spacers may have a different inpacke since they allow the air to travel faster. (some stupied physics there but the same concept as headers, the longer the faster the air moves in at high rpm)
but i could be totally wrong. since its 3 am after working/ drinking at the bar.
No. Restrictions... well, they restrict. So, you'd get a stronger vacuum but less CFM. If the engine took in the same amount of air no matter what, then there would ne no need for any intake modifications.
Then you get into still like pulse waves and other tricks that can give you a bit more or less air.
Also, colder is is more dense then warmer air. Problem with this is that many so called cold air intakes, do the direct opposite because of their poor design.
The only real way to make sure you're getting the most from your engine is to run a wide-band O2 sensor or run a diagnostic computer connected to the PCM. Otherwise, you're just sort of hoping the PCM will adjust correctly. Small changes like what we're doing shouldn't cause issues though.
The problem with forced induction is building up too much pressure to where the engine can't handle it. With forced induction, you're basically increasing the compression ratio by stuffing more air into the cylinders then what the engine normally can handle. Then you're relying on things like the connection rods, cylinder walls and heads staying intact.
If you've ever watched NHRA top Fuel or Funny cars, you'll occasionally see an engine blow up. Usually there building so much pressure the supercharger gets blown off the engine, which is why they strap them down. Before, they would go flying into the air though.
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I think a stock 2.5L TB is at 48mm and a 4.0L TB is at 58mm
From what I was told that 58-62 is all the stock 2.5 can handle and some
of my friends say that 62mm TB is too large. The stock intake manifold restricts
air intake after that. I just received my 4.0/58mm TB in the mail today and will put
it on this weekend.
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Just read on here that the 2.5L TB is 47mm not 48mm
and the 4.0L TB is 53mm not 58mm
47mm-to-53mm is almost a half inch bigger.
John
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I thought the 4.0L was 55mm, but close enough.
Your friends that say the 62mm TB is too large obviously haven't run one.
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I don't know if they have but there is always a choke point. If the stock intake manifold was designed for the stock TB then I'm sure it would handle an increase but at a certain point there wouldn't be any more to gain. I would like to see the results of stock 2.5TB vs 4.0TB vs 62MM TB on the same vehicle or dyno tested to see if there is any more room for additional performance.
as for the sizes in mm's I thought it was 48 also but Jeff wrote in another thread the sizes. Here is the link from this web site...
http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=8.0
Also, did you bore out the intake manifold or change the air intake to match the bigger TB ? I know that would make a big difference !
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The opening in the 2.5L intake manifold needs opened up to 62mm or that is a bottleneck.
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How does one go about opening up the intake bore?
What size is the intake bore?
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How does one go about opening up the intake bore?
What size is the intake bore?
Small. Probably the same as the throat of the TB. You end up shaving off close to 1/4" around. What you do is take a new gasket and scribe around the ID. Then stuff the intake with rags or shaving cream and start grinding with a die grinder or a 2" sanding drum. Then finish with a flapper wheel. Vacuum out the shavings and put it back together.
You can sort of see the lip here.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/yokomura/4BangerJP/poweraid/poweraid.jpg)
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I was told that even with the stock 4.0L 54mm TB that you still had to die grind out the intake a bit for it to work properly. Just curious, I know the power and torque increased. How did the MPG get effected? Better or worse? With the 62mm TB, you won't need as much "pedal" to get the same performance which would equate to a better MPG. But it's there when you want or need it !
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I was told that even with the stock 4.0L 54mm TB that you still had to die grind out the intake a bit for it to work properly. Just curious, I know the power and torque increased. How did the MPG get effected? Better or worse? With the 62mm TB, you won't need as much "pedal" to get the same performance which would equate to a better MPG. But it's there when you want or need it !
Yes, you will want to bore the hole to the gasket, which is larger then either TB.
I have not done this though. I'm still running a stock 4.0L TB and stock intake manifold as per the original thread.
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Then stuff the intake with rags or shaving cream and start grinding with a die grinder or a 2" sanding drum.
Never heard of the 'Ol shaving cream in the intake trick before. How do you get it out? What stops it from going in to far?
I was thinking either a rag with a lite coat of grease or a ball of tape making sure the fit was real tight with either way. Then shop vac.
I might try a dremel with a rotary rasp. It will be slow but the AL should cut pretty easy.
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Never heard of the 'Ol shaving cream in the intake trick before. How do you get it out? What stops it from going in to far?
I was thinking either a rag with a lite coat of grease or a ball of tape making sure the fit was real tight with either way. Then shop vac.
I might try a dremel with a rotary rasp. It will be slow but the AL should cut pretty easy.
You can vacuum up the shaving cream, if you can't scoop it out. Otherwise, it will do no harm if a little gets in there. Remember you want to keep the hole perfectly round if at all possible.
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You can vacuum up the shaving cream, if you can't scoop it out. Otherwise, it will do no harm if a little gets in there. Remember you want to keep the hole perfectly round if at all possible.
That will be the trick keeping it round. It sounds easy,but leaning over with your arms out holding whatever tool used to ream the hole will get old in a short time.
I think I might give it a try. Prolly not gonna happen until after the new year. I should have the TB by next week or so.
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I might try a dremel with a rotary rasp. It will be slow but the AL should cut pretty easy.
That's what I used. Tough to get it perfectly round, clamping a steel guide onto the intake would make it a snap.
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That's what I used. Tough to get it perfectly round, clamping a steel guide onto the intake would make it a snap.
How fast did it go?
A scribe line or sharpie wont do for a guide using the gasket for a template?
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How fast did it go?
A scribe line or sharpie wont do for a guide using the gasket for a template?
Well a metal guide would be best since it wouldn't get ground down and stop you from grinding too much. Using a 2" drum would keep the hole pretty round and even since it makes a nice arch that will be close to straight.
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Well a metal guide would be best since it wouldn't get ground down and stop you from grinding too much. Using a 2" drum would keep the hole pretty round and even since it makes a nice arch that will be close to straight.
Why is it bad to make the hole to big or out of round?
How thick is the manifold where the grinding is needed? My guess is about 1/4 inch or less.
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Why is it bad to make the hole to big or out of round?
How thick is the manifold where the grinding is needed? My guess is about 1/4 inch or less.
An uneven hole disrupts the flow of air and causes turbulence which is bad.
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I finally had a few minutes to myself over the holiday weekend to get the 4.0L TB upgrade done.
I did shave the inside with a pneumatic grinder and replaced the gasket. I followed the directions
in Jeffy's thread and had no problems. No sporadic idols when I started it up the first time and it
purred like a kitten. W o W ! The throttle response was Much Quicker and Much Smoother as
promised at the low end and the power band now stretches up to 4500 Rpm's. I really like this
upgrade and after talking to all of you, I'm now wanting the 62mm TB instead of the 58mm/4.0L TB.
I'll be getting a larger tube kit and a high flow air intake for better aspiration. As of now I'm using
the 2.5L rubber air tube on the 4.0L TB with both air restrictors removed in the stock air box. Next
I'll be looking for the Ford 19lb or 24lb injectors as per your recommendations. I'm leaning towards the
19lb injectors after reading some of your posts but will keep researching. I would love everyone's
input BEFORE I buy anything this time. LOL
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If you think throttle response is quicker now, you should try one of my 62mm TB's that remove the taper beneath the throttle plate. That stock taper requires a lot of throttle plate movement before any air gets past it.
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Bounty Hunter,
After the positive performance of the 4.0L TB, I will be wanting to upgrade again to a 62mm TB in the near future. The way you worded your response it sounds like you might have a few. Any 62mm TB's for sale? How much should I pay for a new/used 62mm TB. I also want to add the TB spacer. I came across a article from gear poet and it stated that the spacer doesn't do much but it does disturb the air flow due to its helix spiral /which cooled the air temp / which gave it a boost. Just going by what the article said. Here is a link to the article and the results for those of you that haven't read it.
http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=424.0
I want to do the Elect fan conversion first before I upgrade to the 62mm TB.
Thanks for the response,
John