4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: sharpxmen on September 20, 2009, 11:46:29 AM
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Hi guys,
I found some overstock cheap Eaton superchargers, they are brand new M90s - i am throwing this here to see if anyone is interested in having a bolt on kit for the 4 banger (in fact would fit the 4.0L as well). the Drive snout is too long for the 4 banger so it will have to be modified. I could get all the parts done and ship them over, for me i'd be happy if i end up with a kit for myself at $0 when it all said and done - i am guessing the whole thing would come to around $1k (not sure until i have all the details but it would be in that ballpark) and that would include all the mounting hardware and the outlet adapter, you will need to get a bypass valve actuator, a matching pulley for your desired boost (comes with a really small one which would give too much boost for the 2.5L) and fuel management related parts (injectors, split second PSC1 and if desired an adjustable FPR). the supercharger would be good for a probably a top of 10psi if not more. I would get all the parts cut on the waterjet and have them welded, also will have to get the drive snout and shaft shortened by a shop, will have to be done on a CNC so it is all within specs. the plan is to have the outlet with a bolt on 90 deg pipe that can be bolted on facing towards the rad (if you want to run an air to air intercooler) or directly towards the intake manifold if you only plan to use up to 5 or 6 psi of boost and no intercooler. The s/c will be installed in the A/C mounting location and it would look very similar to my opcon S/C build in member's projects. The more pple the cheaper it would get since it would split the cost of my kit between them (at this point there are close to 10 of these cores available, not sure how many would be there later). I do this as a hobby so not trying to make money, let me know if you're interested. A brand new Eaton core is around $2700, so i am guessing a kit that would bolt right in for around $1k + shipping costs should be a good deal, not sure if there is interest in having one at this price.
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I'd be interested one one if the price is right. Although, it would also have to be 100% reversible. The one setup I've seen is Rimmer Engineering but they used the M90 for the 4.0 and the M45 for the 2.5. They, used an offy intake which uses the standard 4bbl carb bolt pattern. Although, since you have access to a waterjet and CNC, that makes for almost endless ideas. IIRC, the M45 had the pulley right on the front of the SC unlike the M90.
I think having a basic kit is the way to go. Just have a recommended parts list so people can look for those specific parts. Also, having some MAP's for the PSC1.
The only thing I can think of that may or may not interferer is if someone has a York mounted on the AC bracket. Would there be enough room for both? Also, belt length might become a problem as well. OBA uses a belt that's 100.0-102" as it stands.
I'd really like to see a Paxton or a Vortech centrifugal bracket for the A/C mount though.
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i would be very intrested in the kit.
Your craftmanship is outstanding.
I would like to see your completed version
and i'm sure you will make changes to the design
after it's completed.
keep up the excellent work!
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I'd be interested one one if the price is right. Although, it would also have to be 100% reversible. The one setup I've seen is Rimmer Engineering but they used the M90 for the 4.0 and the M45 for the 2.5. They, used an offy intake which uses the standard 4bbl carb bolt pattern. Although, since you have access to a waterjet and CNC, that makes for almost endless ideas. IIRC, the M45 had the pulley right on the front of the SC unlike the M90.
I think having a basic kit is the way to go. Just have a recommended parts list so people can look for those specific parts. Also, having some MAP's for the PSC1.
The only thing I can think of that may or may not interferer is if someone has a York mounted on the AC bracket. Would there be enough room for both? Also, belt length might become a problem as well. OBA uses a belt that's 100.0-102" as it stands.
I'd really like to see a Paxton or a Vortech centrifugal bracket for the A/C mount though.
check my s/c install thread in member's projects (http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,7334.0.html) - would be exactly the same idea, will have everything done in 3d before cutting and since i've done this for my build i can tell that all the dimensions are right on the money and everything bolts right in and is aligned - i also have a york sc209 designed in the mounting bracket for the s/c, should not be a problem to add one for the HD version though in that case the supercharger would have to be installed vertically since the hd york is wider, but again, i don't see an issue with that and i do have the blueprints for the hd ones - one thing i would need would be the exact dimension/measurement from one of the side mounting holes off the york to the edge of the serpentine belt on the air compressor pulley/clutch and since i don't have one someone will have to do that (don't think it's a big deal, did that for mine with a digital caliper).
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/SC_Works/York/York_test_fit_front.jpg) (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/SC_Works/York/York_test_fit_side.jpg) (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/SC_Works/York/York_test_fit_top.jpg)
it's all welded together now and i also test fit this on the Jeep - it goes in with no problems and it also clears the inner fender well, didn't take pics yet but will do the next time i'll have it in.
you can underdrive the M90 to have it at the same level as the M45, the reason you use a larger displacement s/c is because it displaces a lager volume of air per revolution and since you are rev limited on these to 12000rpm continuous or 14000 peak spike you need to go to a bigger one for a bigger engine (larger motor means higher cfm requirement) - there is no issue with spinning the s/c at 2/3 or 1/2 the rpm for example and get the same final displacement close to the M45 (like using a 4.125'' pulley). the belt length in my case is 128'' and that includes the 5.3'' air compressor pulley - this length is available in 6 ribs. also for a 6.3'' air compressor pulley the belt is 130'' which is also available. I think the M45 is only good for 5psi on the 2.5L if i'm not mistaking, you could go higher but would wear the s/c faster due to smaller pulley requirements.
As far as maps for the PSC i will have them available once my Jeep starts moving (need to get my rear axle finished, lately i got sidetracked with the supercharger stuff)
The P/Ns are something to work on but if there is not enough interest there's no point in doing the research. Like i said, this in not me trying to launch a business, i do this for fun - the waterjet and CNC work would be outsourced to a shop to which i am not related to in any way, they did the work for my s/c install and related components, same for welding - I wouldn't mind having another kit with a different supercharger , but in all honesty there's no reason for me to spend the money since i already have one - but i would do all the work and running around if at the end i would have one out of the hole shebang and having fun designing it (so what i mean by that is the cost of the parts and the s/c core would be split between the guys that would want a kit to compensate for my time and efforts which we all know that for a project like this will be extensive) - i know it's a long shot, it is very unlikely that will have enough pple interested to make this feasible but i would like to do it for my personal satisfaction and I figured there's no harm in asking
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i would be very intrested in the kit.
Your craftmanship is outstanding.
I would like to see your completed version
and i'm sure you will make changes to the design
after it's completed.
keep up the excellent work!
thanks for the props, i appreciate it.
the s/c is completed actually other than the radiator install - but unfortunately i have to do my rear axle before i can start tuning the Split Second unit :(
in fact this is the second version of the design, the first one was a raw mockup and i used everything that i learned from the first one to design the look and fit of this second version - there is very little to change, not much on the supercharger mounting and routing, had to make a few adjustments on the intercooler mounts in my build but that would be out of scope though for this thread (it won't be something that would be included in the kit). Also, all the parts would come raw, they will need to be either chromed or painted by the end user, there is no reasonable way to do that and if you want it to be done by a shop the cost would get ridiculous and i don't think would make sense since most of us are comfortable using a spray can, but that being said all the welds would look exactly the same (tig welds) and all the cuts would look great since they will all be waterjet or CNC - in fact the holes for the supercharger bolts and the a/c mount holes were 8mm on the waterjet, the Metric 8 bolts are 7.9mm OD and i had no issues inserting and tightening of all 7 bolts (3 in the front of the s/c and 4 for the a/c holes) - 0.1mm play/tolerance means 0.004'' or 1/256th of an inch which i think it's pretty good for belt routing (though the fractions don't think they ever go that low :) i think the factory a/c has a higher tolerance than that
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[...] Although, it would also have to be 100% reversible. [...]
missed these the first time: mine is 100% reversible and bolt on. for the Split second I use a 10 pin Metripack connector and it can be unplugged and plugged back straight thru to the PCM. the throttle body is the same and there is no modification to the intake manifold other than plugging the vac ports - but in that case i have a vac manifold so it would be a matter of taking 1 plug out and move the fitting over (in fact there are 2 as the brake drum port is separate). but yes, 100% reversible but there would be some wrenching required (removing the split second unit, taking out 2 vac plugs and inserting the fittings, moving the t/b over to the intake and changing the belt) - but after that should be back to stock.
[...]
I'd really like to see a Paxton or a Vortech centrifugal bracket for the A/C mount though.
I am not a big fan of those for the Jeep - a supercharger has a flat torque curve the centrifugals and turbos are giving you boost at high rpm, makes them great for speed and acceleration and also more fuel efficient (at least in case of the turbo) but the torque gain is not that significant. the mount should be easy to design and make, but since i don't have one i can't. What's the cost on a Paxton or Vortec core? I saw them brand new at around $2300 or so i think. Also i understand that there are a few issues with the fact that it has to spin so fast (high rpm) with the multiplier drive, but i have no experience with them so i can't speak for that. I would suggest a turbo if your choice is a centrifugal type, they are more gas friendly since you don't use the crank power to spin them.
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I am not a big fan of those for the Jeep - a supercharger has a flat torque curve the centrifugals and turbos are giving you boost at high rpm, makes them great for speed and acceleration and also more fuel efficient (at least in case of the turbo) but the torque gain is not that significant. the mount should be easy to design and make, but since i don't have one i can't. What's the cost on a Paxton or Vortec core? I saw them brand new at around $2300 or so i think. Also i understand that there are a few issues with the fact that it has to spin so fast (high rpm) with the multiplier drive, but i have no experience with them so i can't speak for that. I would suggest a turbo if your choice is a centrifugal type, they are more gas friendly since you don't use the crank power to spin them.
Yeah, the centrifugal have a narrower band like a Turbo BUT I think it matches up well with the 2.5L since low end torque isn't really the problem. If the turbo kicks in around 27-3000RPM, that would be prefect, for most people. You can usually find them for under $2000 online. Although, if you can package a roots for similar price or better, then that would be a great deal.
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Yeah, the centrifugal have a narrower band like a Turbo BUT I think it matches up well with the 2.5L since low end torque isn't really the problem. If the turbo kicks in around 27-3000RPM, that would be prefect, for most people. You can usually find them for under $2000 online. Although, if you can package a roots for similar price or better, then that would be a great deal.
i'm pretty sure that with the extra idler, belt and pipes, couplers and vac manifold + plugs & fittings would be in the neighbouhood of $1300 but there should be about 10 pple to make it feasible (shop costs, pipes, s/c core costs and the little screws fittings and even metal/aluminum would be cheaper that way) - and that is with a brand new core - should be a hard to beat price even if you do all the work yourself, i know mine went higher than that in the end (well maybe not but if i count my hours reasonably it would not to mention that i made all the mounts and adapters twice). a reman M90 is around $4-500 + the core cost which is another $300 and i think the same goes for the centrifugals. the only cheaper option is the turbo (lot cheaper in fact) but with the downside of having no low end gain and if you want a reasonable rpm where it would push boost should be sized matched since the 4 banger is small so exhaust pressure would build up with rpm.
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Now you have me wishing I had not moved to Costa Rica! I want one of these, but importing it here will double the price, so I cannot say I am in... Altough keep me on the list as probable, because I am looking for a way around this!
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never enuff $$$. I have to regear so as much as i want to be in I would have to say 2010 or 2011
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If the price was right i would be interested as well.
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I might be interested too
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If the price was right i would be interested as well.
what is the "right" price?
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what is the "right" price?
I think your price point is fine. I don't think you could get it less for the amount of work that is going into those brackets and the inlet and outlets on the SC.
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ok, so there are 4 "maybe" so far:
Jeffy
jfrabat
jason 00
TrailsLessTaken
if we get to 7 or 8 i will try and get some pricing on the shop work and that includes materials, the snout shortening and will also include the piping and couplers so we get a better idea of the final price. already know how much the idler, belt and vac manifold + plugs and fittings are.
the things that would have to bought separately will be:
bypass valve actuator
fuel injectors
Split Second PSC1 (though i think we can get a better price on this on a group buy, same with the bypass actuator)
matching pulley (will not be the same size as it's unlikely that everyone will like the same level of boost)
i do recommend a 180 degree thermostat (but this is like $10 or so)
colder spark plugs (same here, they go for about $12 for the set of 4)
will keep you posted if there are anymore that will express interest in this
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I think your price point is fine. I don't think you could get it less for the amount of work that is going into those brackets and the inlet and outlets on the SC.
i was asking lax as i didn't understand if he meant that he is interested or that he is not because my estimation was too high - but yeah, you're right and i was guessing the price based on my cost for the current project and the fact that all the little work that i did myself would be outsourced as well but considering that the setup cost in the shop would be cheaper since will be split for the number of sets (for example preparing the digital files for waterjet to cut cost me as much as the parts themselves but it would be a one time for all kits in case there is more than one).
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ok, so there are 4 "maybe" so far:
Jeffy
jfrabat
jason 00
TrailsLessTaken
if we get to 7 or 8 i will try and get some pricing on the shop work and that includes materials, the snout shortening and will also include the piping and couplers so we get a better idea of the final price. already know how much the idler, belt and vac manifold + plugs and fittings are.
the things that would have to bought separately will be:
bypass valve actuator
fuel injectors
Split Second PSC1 (though i think we can get a better price on this on a group buy, same with the bypass actuator)
matching pulley (will not be the same size as it's unlikely that everyone will like the same level of boost)
i do recommend a 180 degree thermostat (but this is like $10 or so)
colder spark plugs (same here, they go for about $12 for the set of 4)
will keep you posted if there are anymore that will express interest in this
some prices on the extras
Split Second PSC1-001E Prog. Sig. Cal. w/Absolute MAP and ESC $351
3.4'' pulley ~ $80 maybe less (when i bought my kenne-bell ones were $50)
bypass valve actuator - not sure of the cost on this one, i am guestimating around $50, could be more
30 to 32lb/hr fuel injectors - a used set of 4 would probably cost in the neighbourhood of $40, brand new will cost around $120 for a set of 4 (found a set of 8 at $240 so that can be split in 2 sets of 4)
so if i add the spark plugs and thermostat that would make it between $520 to $700 (min to max range) for the additional parts
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I am very interested.But Im self employed(carpenter)and havent had the best year so far :flush:.So it may or may not be in my budget.
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I am very interested.But Im self employed(carpenter)and havent had the best year so far :flush:.So it may or may not be in my budget.
5 x maybe
Jeffy
jfrabat
jason 00
TrailsLessTaken
b.hog
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Are there any plans to run your jeep with the completed supercharger setup
on a dyno. Reason for me asking is that my jeep see very little street useage
[mainly rock crawling] and i really could use a smooth power band that is very
torquey
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Are there any plans to run your jeep with the completed supercharger setup
on a dyno. Reason for me asking is that my jeep see very little street useage
[mainly rock crawling] and i really could use a smooth power band that is very
torquey
maybe, not sure yet - if i find a good deal on time slot at a shop with a dyno i will, but i need to tune it first and for that to get the rear axle done. once i have some miles on it and log the outputs i can tune the fuel and timing map and take baby steps until i get it right. the supercharger that i have (twin screw) will start pushing boost at about 1500 rpm so the torque would be seeing gains early (same with the new gen roots)
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Dont forget me. I have some interest in this.
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Dont forget me. I have some interest in this.
sure, doesn't look like is going to happen however, so far including you there are 6 but all "maybe" so it is a long shot.