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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: jfrabat on October 01, 2009, 03:37:06 PM
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OK, guys, I know I've gone through this one a coupe of times, but here's the deal; after not driving my Jeep for about a month, I drove it today and now more than ever I feel my brakes are lacking... As some of you remember, I have changed the master, the booster, calipers, rotors and pads already; I even added a vaccuum reservoir for the boosted, and still no big difference. Is there a cheap way to have a big boost in braking performance? Or do I have to go with the Econoline booster and TJ master (or was it the other way around?) for it to work?
Felipe
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About the only fairly easy mod that helps after a bigger booster and master is adding rear disc brakes. They do make a reasonable difference over the stock drum brakes
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What kind of pads are you running?
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How are they lacking?
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I bet they are lacking in the emergency stop department
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I'd say just don't drive too fast, Felipe.
If you factor the stopping power in to how you drive, it should be manageable (not saying it'd be fun or ideal, just manageable). Somehow people survived driving the first Corvettes and Muscle cars and most of those didn't break for $hit either :lol:
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I bet they are lacking in the emergency stop department
Well, that's pretty broad. Are they fading? Are they locking up too early? Are the rears locking up at all? How are you applying the brakes? Stomp on it then hope and pray? Are you letting up as they lock up? etc...
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What kind of pads are you running?
Hawk pads (the green ones; LTS?)How are they lacking?
When breaking hard, they just dont bite enough...
Well, that's pretty broad. Are they fading? Are they locking up too early? Are the rears locking up at all? How are you applying the brakes? Stomp on it then hope and pray? Are you letting up as they lock up? etc...
They are simply not capable of locking; in fact, far from it, which means I cannot do any kind of hard stopping...
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I'd say just don't drive too fast, Felipe.
If you factor the stopping power in to how you drive, it should be manageable (not saying it'd be fun or ideal, just manageable). Somehow people survived driving the first Corvettes and Muscle cars and most of those didn't break for $hit either :lol:
I said break (huh huh)
Felipe, you have stainless steel brake lines on there, right? That firmed things up a lot for me. I like the pedal feel better with DOT4 synthetic brake fluid also.
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I'd say just don't drive too fast, Felipe.
If you factor the stopping power in to how you drive, it should be manageable (not saying it'd be fun or ideal, just manageable). Somehow people survived driving the first Corvettes and Muscle cars and most of those didn't break for $hit either :lol:
I take it you have not seen how latin people drive... You NEED braking because you have to drive about 2 feet of the car in front of you when moving and stop 6 inches from them (otherwise, so many people cut you off, that you will never get there).
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I take it you have not seen how latin people drive... You NEED braking because you have to drive about 2 feet of the car in front of you when moving and stop 6 inches from them (otherwise, so many people cut you off, that you will never get there).
Nah I figured that was the case. And it probably pays to go with the traffic flow there as with anywhere.
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OK, guys, I know I've gone through this one a coupe of times, but here's the deal; after not driving my Jeep for about a month, I drove it today and now more than ever I feel my brakes are lacking... As some of you remember, I have changed the master, the booster, calipers, rotors and pads already; I even added a vaccuum reservoir for the boosted, and still no big difference. Is there a cheap way to have a big boost in braking performance? Or do I have to go with the Econoline booster and TJ master (or was it the other way around?) for it to work?
Felipe
I have swapped in AWD Astro van hydroboosts I get from Pick&Pulls with the stock YJ MC, way better stopping power. Put one in my friends BBC powered Toyota LC with 4w discs, locks up his 44s with no problem, says that is the best mod he's ever done. Hydroboosts put out three times the braking pressure of vacuum assist units. For info on hydroboost setups go here; www.vancopbs.com/category_s/66.htm
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Hawk pads (the green ones; LTS?)
When breaking hard, they just dont bite enough...
They are simply not capable of locking; in fact, far from it, which means I cannot do any kind of hard stopping...
Well at higher speeds, you won't be locking them up. Actually having them lock up is bad as your brakes are then not working to stop you. I know even with my stock brakes (except rear 10" drums) I can lock up the front's fairly easily once the speed drops enough. You can get more bite with a larger master and a dual-diaphragm booster. The booster would be from a TJ and the master from an E350.
If you need more then that then really your only other choice is hydro-boost. You could also go with ZJ dual piston front calipers as well but otherwise, you're limited by the size of your axles and wheel dia..
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WJ steering conversion will take care of the front brakes too.....
larger rotors (Ford Sportrac front rotors), and dual piston Grand Cherokee Calipers, then use EBC pads.
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Vanco Big Brake Kit
either way as with most safety equipment...you get what you pay for...
Good brakes aren't cheap...
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I have swapped in AWD Astro van hydroboosts I get from Pick&Pulls with the stock YJ MC, way better stopping power. Put one in my friends BBC powered Toyota LC with 4w discs, locks up his 44s with no problem, says that is the best mod he's ever done. Hydroboosts put out three times the braking pressure of vacuum assist units. For info on hydroboost setups go here; www.vancopbs.com/category_s/66.htm
that's a cool mod, i always wanted to do that but didn't see any budget writeup on it and my experience with hydroboost is at zero - are you using the stock p/s pump or did you have to upgrade that as well? what was the extend of the mods you had to do to have the hydroboost installed? do you have any pics of your install?
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Hawk pads (the green ones; LTS?)
I had a set of hawk pads and they pretty much "ate" the stock rotors I had on the front end. But those pads did work well while the rotors lasted. Of course this was on a pretty stock jeep on stock AT rubber and the Jeep probably weighed in at 3500lbs with driver.
Your 4 banger all set up with the bumpers, winch, 33" spare, the whole deal has got to weight close to 2+ tons w/driver. That and the bigger tires are probably working the brakes pretty well.
But it could be a deal where the Hawk pads don't like the rotors you have. I think I have read of rotor/pad compatibility problems.
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http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,3480.0.html
Yeah, I'm betting rotor/pad compatibility has something to do with it (based on looking back at the old post above). If Brembo rotors, then Brembo pads and so forth.
You can bed the pads correctly, but if there's any incompatibility with the material formulations for your rotors and for the pads, then you can apparently have problems. Search around on rotor/pad compatibility problems despite bedding.
I'd probably start from scratch on the whole deal -- maybe just do EBC truck pads/rotors or Performance Friction pads/rotors and I guarantee you won't make your braking any worse :lol: I'd probably also have a shop do the work and see if you can pick up some tips along the way if they notice you did something wrong the first go around.
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I ran the Performance Friction pads on my D30. The brake system was otherwise stock. I could lock up the fronts on dry pavement during hard braking. When I was on 35's. I'd like to change my current pads over to the PF pads. I can't lock the fronts now at all even with bigger calipers and rotors, but then the tires are bigger too.
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I ran the Performance Friction pads on my D30. The brake system was otherwise stock. I could lock up the fronts on dry pavement during hard braking. When I was on 35's. I'd like to change my current pads over to the PF pads. I can't lock the fronts now at all even with bigger calipers and rotors, but then the tires are bigger too.
Hmm, I've locked my brakes up and I'm still running stock front pads.
Actually, I was going to mention this last week but didn't bother. I was driving down a road in town that passes under the freeway. There is a T intersection on the right for those coming off the freeway. This dumbass though he didn't need to stop and darted out as I was less then three car lengths away. I was doing 40mph maybe. He was oblivious till he checked his sides again then was a deer in headlights. Initially he :eek: but then kept going. I was able to hit the brakes and started to lock up the front. The rear was starting to come around a little. I was able to use that and shoot for the gap behind him. I think the other driver was a bit scared since he pulled over. I just drove home. :lol: The next day I saw my skid mark was around 4ft long but pretty light. As I heard the tires, I was already letting up. I'm glad I don't have ABS. I would have been into the side of him for sure. Not having the ABS gave me enough time for opening to clear.
I'd like to upgrade all of my brakes, hopefully with larger axles, and do a 1T hydroboost. The downside to hydroboost is that if the engien dies you have even less brakes then you would with the vacuum system. Some hydro boost pumps have a reserve so you have a few pumps before they die completely. It's not fun to drive down roads without brakes. BTDT, it was raining hard and at night with no lights... :eek:
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The GM hydroboost unit has a gas accumulator on it that will give you a couple of brake applications after the engine dies. It's the little round can that sits on the drivers side of the unit
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Mercury Marquis master cylinder ($13) and an 8.8 with disc brakes allow me to lock up 35's with no problems.
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The downside to hydroboost is that if the engien dies you have even less brakes then you would with the vacuum system.
what happens if you leave it in gear, wouldn't that turn the pump over? would you still have breakes in that case? (assuming you're rolling still). i guess the question is if you are almost stopped or on the trail on a steep incline, that could be scary though, the vac drum would still hold about 3 pumps, not sure what the accumulator on the hydroboost would do (maybe Sean can give some insight since he is running one).
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Actually, I feel that at high speed, the brakes work fairly well; it is at low speed that I feel they do not bite enough. At high speeds, I cannot lock them, but I do hear the tires chirping, so any more power and I would lock them (which is not necessarily good). But at low speed, the Jeep rolls a bit too long, and I dont feel the brakes really grab enough. I may start with the master and booster and go from there, but I defenetly need to do SOMETHING... Although maybe Hydroboost is not a bad option either.
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Probably not an option in the US but here in Mexico (maybe Costa Rica and Panama too) asbestos brake pads will allow you to lock up with very little pressure. My rear axle came with those and it would lock up all the time, way before the front (with modern pads). Now, with modern pads in back as well, they brake well enough and the rear never locks up. Overall it is much safer this way.
This reminds me of the weak non-power brakes on the '43 GPW I used to own. I just realized they where designed to work with asbestos pads back in those days and the braking was very likely much better.
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Actually, I feel that at high speed, the brakes work fairly well; it is at low speed that I feel they do not bite enough. At high speeds, I cannot lock them, but I do hear the tires chirping, so any more power and I would lock them (which is not necessarily good). But at low speed, the Jeep rolls a bit too long, and I dont feel the brakes really grab enough. I may start with the master and booster and go from there, but I defenetly need to do SOMETHING... Although maybe Hydroboost is not a bad option either.
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Actually, I feel that at high speed, the brakes work fairly well; it is at low speed that I feel they do not bite enough. At high speeds, I cannot lock them, but I do hear the tires chirping, so any more power and I would lock them (which is not necessarily good). But at low speed, the Jeep rolls a bit too long, and I dont feel the brakes really grab enough. I may start with the master and booster and go from there, but I defenetly need to do SOMETHING... Although maybe Hydroboost is not a bad option either.
If Jeffy, 4BangerYj have/had 35s and are locking their fronts with stock or performance friction pads, I don't think boost would be the issue I'd be looking at if high/low speed braking was a problem on 33s. I'd be looking at the pads/rotors. But it's not my nickel and who wouldn't like more boost in the long run :lol:
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can u send me some abspesdos brake pads for dana 30 and 8.8 if they really do grab better
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Hmmm I don't know what happened to everything I typed in that post so I'm going to try again, lol
Actually, I feel that at high speed, the brakes work fairly well; it is at low speed that I feel they do not bite enough. At high speeds, I cannot lock them, but I do hear the tires chirping, so any more power and I would lock them (which is not necessarily good). But at low speed, the Jeep rolls a bit too long, and I dont feel the brakes really grab enough. I may start with the master and booster and go from there, but I defenetly need to do SOMETHING... Although maybe Hydroboost is not a bad option either.
This statement has me curious. If the brakes can almost lock up the tires at higher speeds but then don't stop well at lower speeds, this sounds more like a break fade issue than a bad brake issue.
When you first start out and everything is cold (not after the Jeep sat for a month don't want to mix rusty rotors into this issue) does the brakes work good?
Does the feeling of not having enough brakes only come around after you just used your brakes hard or for a prolonged period of time?
Do you hover your left foot over the brake pedal while your driving around?
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can u send me some abspesdos brake pads for dana 30 and 8.8 if they really do grab better
it's on the list of dangerous materials that cannot be shipped to the US i believe (i'm pretty sure it is for Canada), just a heads-up - not sure how that would work but i'd be careful. they also tend to wear the disks faster. the good pads are fine you need more braking power due to larger tires (for example if you have 33'' tires you will need either 17% larger disks to be same as stock but that is in case they would fit inside the rim, or improved clamping power but i have no idea how much more since i don't think it's a linear increase there - something to do with friction, diameter, temperature and clamping force)
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how does wj steering give you bigger brakes. i have heard of v8 zj steering swap but not wj. enlighten me
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how does wj steering give you bigger brakes. i have heard of v8 zj steering swap but not wj. enlighten me
i think this is the link with the info - http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/brakes/xj_wjbrakes03/index.htm
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can u send me some abspesdos brake pads for dana 30 and 8.8 if they really do grab better
I'm pretty sure it would be illegal to use them in the US. I don't even use them here anymore (I could put them on all 4 wheels to even things out and they would work fine) because the stuff is dangerous to breath if you need to fix your own brakes. But they do grab a lot better based on my personal use of them.
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Actually, I feel that at high speed, the brakes work fairly well; it is at low speed that I feel they do not bite enough. At high speeds, I cannot lock them, but I do hear the tires chirping, so any more power and I would lock them (which is not necessarily good). But at low speed, the Jeep rolls a bit too long, and I dont feel the brakes really grab enough. I may start with the master and booster and go from there, but I defenetly need to do SOMETHING... Although maybe Hydroboost is not a bad option either.
If the tires begin to chirp then you're locking them up. It doesn't really make sense that they would work well at high speeds and not a low. Do you mean, you apply the brakes at high speeds then continue to hold them to stop, but they won't bite once you slow down? If that's the case then that's brake fade.
BTW: stay away from brake pads that say long life or high mileage as they aren't going to work as well. Although, on the flip side, performance brakes tend not to last as long.
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I wonder if the added weight of some of your upgrades are making it feel like your brakes are not working right?