4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: FourbangerYJ on January 10, 2010, 10:03:28 PM
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http://sharing.theflip.com/session/383c6045a8c29ff4b3830e4ca5751b1b/video/9148119
This is a guy in my club at Calico over the weekend. He just put in the rear D60. He bought it off E-bay. It's a full float that has 35 spline shafts at the diff but 30 splines at the hub. :confused: I told him to take it easy since its really a 44/60. He didn't realize the shafts necked down until he bought some drive slugs for it. He was braking the Waggy D44 he had back there and thought for some reason this set up would last a life time. :nono:
He has a 90 2.5/AX5,AA4speed and 5.38's. 215:1
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DANA-60-FULL-FLOAT-DISC-BRAKE-REAR-AXLE-KIT-NEW-PARTS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53d7ef696fQQitemZ360105077103QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Here is the ad he got the D60 from. Notice it does not say anything about the shafts being 35 spline on one end and 30 on the other. Look at the PIC close and you can see where it necks down. Not sure what grade steel they used for the shaft.
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Should have stuck with SF 35 splines.
Those shafts are definitely tapered. :uhoh:
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that sucks, he would've been better off buying cromoly shafts for his 44
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I know I am pretty new to this but I never saw any shafts that look like that.
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I know I am pretty new to this but I never saw any shafts that look like that.
It's common for D60's to be necked down to 1.30" 30 spline in some applications. Most FF's are 30 spline, IIRC. You'll also find many front D60's with necked down stub shafts as well. These are 3/4 Ton, IIRC. I haven't seen a rear hybrid though. Strange that they would even make that.
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Strange. He'll probably be able to upgrade to 35 splines on both ends but what a hassle! Not a bad price on the axle kit though...
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Strange. He'll probably be able to upgrade to 35 splines on both ends but what a hassle! Not a bad price on the axle kit though...
he'll need to upgrade the hubs/floater kit as well so really another pile of money on top of what the axles would cost.
EDIT: if that's even available - i have no idea
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he'll need to upgrade the hubs/floater kit as well so really another pile of money on top of what the axles would cost.
EDIT: if that's even available - i have no idea
Aftermarket shafts would be best, 35 spline on each end. Some 4130 and 300M are avail. But ya the spindle,hubs/driveflanges would need to be purchased which for the D60 stuff is $$.
On that housing I think the bearing ends need to be cut off and some larger bearing ends put on. Not sure a 1.5 inch shaft would fit thru the D44 size bearing.
It's common for D60's to be necked down to 1.30" 30 spline in some applications. Most FF's are 30 spline, IIRC. You'll also find many front D60's with necked down stub shafts as well. These are 3/4 Ton, IIRC. I haven't seen a rear hybrid though. Strange that they would even make that.
I emailed the company, he said it was to save money, and put the weak link at the Warn hub. Which he said would be a warranty claim if they failed. But John added drive flanges which put the weak link on the shaft. With the price of the kit I don't think the shaft material is all that top notch. Maybe 1541H... but I doubt it.
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On that housing I think the bearing ends need to be cut off and some larger bearing ends put on. Not sure a 1.5 inch shaft would fit thru the D44 size bearing.I emailed the company, he said it was to save money, and put the weak link at the Warn hub. Which he said would be a warranty claim if they failed. But John added drive flanges which put the weak link on the shaft. With the price of the kit I don't think the shaft material is all that top notch. Maybe 1541H... but I doubt it.
So that's a D60 center with D44 outers? The deal doesn't seem like much of a deal. He might be able to find bearings that have the same OD but with the larger ID if he's lucky.
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So that's a D60 center with D44 outers? The deal doesn't seem like much of a deal. He might be able to find bearings that have the same OD but with the larger ID if he's lucky.
Everything is D60 but the hubs, spindles,and the bearings for that.
Also it does not come with a carrier or R&P. Those you buy on your own or from them at a extra cost.
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Everything is D60 but the hubs, spindles,and the bearings for that.
Also it does not come with a carrier or R&P. Those you buy on your own or from them at a extra cost.
I guess the deal isn't too bad but those little things sure add up quickly.
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They did all this because a stock dana 60 will not fit 35 spine shafts through the stock spindle end. There are a couple of fixes a good axle place could make a nice hyvrid have chevy 14 bolt spindles welded on then use the chevy hubs and rotors and chromemolly 35 spline shafts for a full floater HD dana 60 or Dana 70 axle and all is well.
There might also be a problem with the edge of the necked down shafts if it was done right with a nice radius it might live. All in all this is a piss poor setup though
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They did all this because a stock dana 60 will not fit 35 spine shafts through the stock spindle end. There are a couple of fixes a good axle place could make a nice hyvrid have chevy 14 bolt spindles welded on then use the chevy hubs and rotors and chromemolly 35 spline shafts for a full floater HD dana 60 or Dana 70 axle and all is well.
There might also be a problem with the edge of the necked down shafts if it was done right with a nice radius it might live. All in all this is a piss poor setup though
Looking at the PICS in the ad, there is no radius it's a step with a sharp edge.
I told him to do a 14B. He could swap his D44 front over easily and for cheap.
Scary thing is he wants to run 39.5 inch IROC's :nono: ::)
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Below is a cut and paste of the email I got from the company that made it.
The outer is a 30 spline 1.33 inch and it uses a 30 spline Dana 44 locking hub. I built the axle this way to two reason. The biggest is it is a lot cheaper and easier to get the hub and spindles. The other is the weakest part is the locking hubs which are easy to change, carry spars and are under warranty by Warn. Please call me at the toll-free number listed below or e-mail me if I can help you further. Thanks!
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Would it be cheaper to convert to semi-floating? With 35 spline axles this would probably hold up pretty well.
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Is that a 90* cut down on the shaft or is it some type of taper?
Well if the shaft breaks, simple, pull it out and carry on. That 4-sp Atlas is a 10+:1 so take that back to the shafts.....with all that 4BANG muscle. LOL
Its too bad he can't put manual lockouts on it and let those be the fuse of breaking.
Biggest news to come for a rear axle is a S9 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=845287). It may be a pretty penny right now, but its built to be powered and manhandled.....
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Looking at the PICS in the ad, there is no radius it's a step with a sharp edge.
I told him to do a 14B. He could swap his D44 front over easily and for cheap.
Scary thing is he wants to run 39.5 inch IROC's :nono: ::)
Since gearing isn't an issue, I'd definitely go with a a 14 bolt.
I really don't like that step either. It should have been tapered it to reduce stress.
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Below is a cut and paste of the email I got from the company that made it.
The outer is a 30 spline 1.33 inch and it uses a 30 spline Dana 44 locking hub. I built the axle this way to two reason. The biggest is it is a lot cheaper and easier to get the hub and spindles. The other is the weakest part is the locking hubs which are easy to change, carry spars and are under warranty by Warn. Please call me at the toll-free number listed below or e-mail me if I can help you further. Thanks!
LOL, I couldn't keep D44 locking hubs in one piece on a front end. Sure wouldn't want them on a rear axle. The fact that the shafts broke before the hubs exploded shows how bad the shafts are.
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LOL, I couldn't keep D44 locking hubs in one piece on a front end. Sure wouldn't want them on a rear axle. The fact that the shafts broke before the hubs exploded shows how bad the shafts are.
He had drive flanges.
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LOL, I couldn't keep D44 locking hubs in one piece on a front end. Sure wouldn't want them on a rear axle. The fact that the shafts broke before the hubs exploded shows how bad the shafts are.
He swapped the hubs for some Poly Perf. drive slugs.
He couldn't keep his Waggy D44 alive back there either, with semi float shafts.
Since gearing isn't an issue, I'd definitely go with a a 12 bolt.
I really don't like that step either. It should have been tapered it to reduce stress.
I thought 12bolt = D44 for strength? plus the 12B is a C-clip.
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He swapped the hubs for some Poly Perf. drive slugs.
He couldn't keep his Waggy D44 alive back there either, with semi float shafts.
I thought 12bolt = D44 for strength? plus the 12B is a C-clip.
Whoops, typo. I meant 14B.
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Whadoya think about having some shafts made from these guy's? 4340 should hold up pretty good. The 300M ones would be best but gets pricey. They also have a D60 FF kit avail. It's almost $900 which does not include shafts,drive slugs, brake rotor.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=751145
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The shaft broke where it steps down. He is having some Chromo's made. If it fails he said he will convert it to 35 spline thru out.
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The shaft broke where it steps down. He is having some Chromo's made. If it fails he said he will convert it to 35 spline thru out.
Can they step down the shaft at least? Seems that he's really no stronger then when he had the SJ D44 rear. Maybe try to move the weak point to the U-joints instead?
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Cheapest best bet would be to find a junkyard 14bolt have the spindels cut off then use those and the hubs and brakes from there you can use plain 35 spline shafts or chromos and be done with it keep it simple stupid . Dana 60 and 14 bolt full floaters use compatible brakes and hubs. The biggest pain with most dana 60's is that the spindle hole isn't big enough for a 35 spline shaft. The better part of a dana 60 is compared to a 14 bolt is that the pumkin is much smaller it hangs only 1" lower than a dana 44
14 bolt pumkin is a hell of a lot bigger, other than that its a very strong axle
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The shaft broke where it steps down. He is having some Chromo's made. If it fails he said he will convert it to 35 spline thru out.
Correcting myself here. It broke 2 inches from the end of the shaft (30 spline side)
Can they step down the shaft at least? Seems that he's really no stronger then when he had the SJ D44 rear. Maybe try to move the weak point to the U-joints instead?
I don't know who is making his shafts. They have to be better than the ones that came with it.
I would agree with the strength not being stronger that what he had.
In the long run his great deal will cost him a lot more.
The weak link should be the hubs that he swapped out for drive flanges.
Knowing John he will break the new shafts fairly quickly.
Personally I think I would do a LP 9 inch with 35 spline shafts.
Like Art says the 60's are nice but getting the 35 spline stuff to fit is $$. I do like the 14B but I really don't like the massive center section. Strong as a mule thou!!
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Correcting myself here. It broke 2 inches from the end of the shaft (30 spline side)
I don't know who is making his shafts. They have to be better than the ones that came with it.
I would agree with the strength not being stronger that what he had.
In the long run his great deal will cost him a lot more.
The weak link should be the hubs that he swapped out for drive flanges.
Knowing John he will break the new shafts fairly quickly.
Personally I think I would do a LP 9 inch with 35 spline shafts.
Like Art says the 60's are nice but getting the 35 spline stuff to fit is $$. I do like the 14B but I really don't like the massive center section. Strong as a mule thou!!
I would put the hubs back on even with cro-moly shafts. In the video it looks like the shaft snapped because of the torque from the gearing and not a shock load.
You can shave a 14B a lot if you're willing. They're dime a dozen and don't carry the premium like the D60 does.
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I would put the hubs back on even with cro-moly shafts. In the video it looks like the shaft snapped because of the torque from the gearing and not a shock load.
You can shave a 14B a lot if you're willing. They're dime a dozen and don't carry the premium like the D60 does.
Good advice, don't think he will take it.
Hard to say on the breakage. You can't see the driver side. The pass. side was not bound up at all. Musta been the driver side that broke. The Gatekeeper has snapped many shafts and U joints.
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Have any picts of the removed shaft?
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Have any picts of the removed shaft?
No, I'll ask for some.
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(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c331/FourbangerYJ/axle1-1.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c331/FourbangerYJ/axle2.jpg)
Pretty clean break. A fair amount of twist.
It was the driver side.
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Pretty clean break. A fair amount of twist.
It was the driver side.
wow, what was that made of?
interesting that 2 areas of the shaft had behaved differently (one twisted and then snapped right at the sharp edge of the splines)
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I would put the hubs back on even with cro-moly shafts. In the video it looks like the shaft snapped because of the torque from the gearing and not a shock load.
You can shave a 14B a lot if you're willing. They're dime a dozen and don't carry the premium like the D60 does.
Much easier to just get a D60, chop off the ends, weld on Ford big bearing ends and then use 35 spline SF shafts. The one I built cost $500. To weld on the big bearing ends, you do need an alignment bar and pucks - but luckily my friend has one.
I've got a 14 bolt under my streetrod, and even with a shave you would have to be running some awful big tires to get any clearance out of it.
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wow, what was that made of?
interesting that 2 areas of the shaft had behaved differently (one twisted and then snapped right at the sharp edge of the splines)
Not sure what material that was.
That is the nature of axles shafts. The straight part would go into the hub or drive flange in this case. Not sure how far it goes in but atleast a inch. So it can't twist. Therefore the are of the shaft that is right next to the area which is inside gets the full brunt of the twisting forces. As you can see it twisted until it couldn't take anymore then SNAP!. The higher quality shaft material will twist more before snapping.
I am not sure I understand why some shafts snap and it looks like those above. Like they where put in a chop saw. Others I have seen have twisted and broke and it looked like the broken ends were put into a pencil sharpener (sorta). I thought the higher grade material snapped clean. Not sure thou.
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I've got a 14 bolt under my streetrod, and even with a shave you would have to be running some awful big tires to get any clearance out of it.
He said he wants to run 39's.
I am not sure I understand why some shafts snap and it looks like those above. Like they where put in a chop saw. Others I have seen have twisted and broke and it looked like the broken ends were put into a pencil sharpener (sorta). I thought the higher grade material snapped clean. Not sure thou.
It has to do with the construction, hardening and the force applied. If you look at the side shot you can see the shiny edges with a dull core. The hardening was pretty deep which aligns the molecules so you get a clean break. The other type of break usually looks like a spear since the hardened surface breaks off the softer core material and is more of a longitudinal crack. Kind of like peeling a banana.
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(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c331/FourbangerYJ/broken_axle.jpg)
Here is the type of break that also occurs. I would say this is a stock axle, they seem to break this way VS. the clean cut.
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Here is the type of break that also occurs. I would say this is a stock axle, they seem to break this way VS. the clean cut.
That's the longitudinal crack I mentioned. You can see it basically peels off the ahrdened surface off the softer. That groove that looks like someone swiped the finger in butter is the hardened surface while the chunky bits are the softer bits.
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i'm also thinking that it could have something to do with the splines in terms of if they are rolled vs machined (cut) - the ones that are cut i think would created more concentration of the force towards the sharp edge where the spline ends whereas the rolled ones would transfer the tension towards the rest of the shaft due to the way the molecules are aligned during the rolling/pressing of the splines (sorry Jeffy, stole your molecular approach) - would be interesting to find out what type of shaft it was just for future reference.
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Further research I first found it on Google images. It was on the JK forum. It was a front shaft. Not sure if it was a Rubi or not.
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i'm also thinking that it could have something to do with the splines in terms of if they are rolled vs machined (cut) - the ones that are cut i think would created more concentration of the force towards the sharp edge where the spline ends whereas the rolled ones would transfer the tension towards the rest of the shaft due to the way the molecules are aligned during the rolling/pressing of the splines (sorry Jeffy, stole your molecular approach) - would be interesting to find out what type of shaft it was just for future reference.
Rolled Splines are stronger just like how forging is stronger then cast. Instead of cutting splines, the ones that are rolled are denser because of the rolling process compressing material. I don't think they get aligned until the hardening process which comes afterward.
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Rolled Splines are stronger just like how forging is stronger then cast. Instead of cutting splines, the ones that are rolled hare denser because of the rolling process. I don't think get get aligned until the hardening process which comes afterward.
can't remember the exact terminology - but you're right, it's similar to rolled bar, the molecular structure is continuous whereas with the splines being cut there is an break in the structure where the material is removed
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UPDATE He chipped some teeth off the Detroit when the shaft broke. :brick:
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This is getting worse and worse.