4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: bammerman on March 01, 2010, 09:14:47 AM
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I found 2 deals. 1 is a full straight 6 with ecu and harness for about 300.00 at my pick-n-pull with about 145k on it. another a guy is parting out and will give me everything for 100.00 with 225k on it.
would you buy the first one and rebuild kit
or buy the second one and do a full overhaul?
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I'd buy a straight 6 jeep and transfer the goodies on my current one to it.
I've helped on a couple 6 cyl swaps was very painful.... For the gain. :stick:
If I was going to do the work I'd take the one I could remove the wiring
from myself so I could document the connections.
At 145 or 225 both could use a rebuild. 145 could go a while but I hate doing the R&R twice.
Cost me about 2K for a full end to end performance rebuild on my 4 cylinder....
Hesco and others will build a stroker for you... :pot:
Good Luck.
Dave
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i think you will need both harnesses, the one in the engine bay and the one under the dash with everything that comes on it as well as the gauge cluster and the instrument panel (tacho/speedo).
like he ^ said, most likely you'll need to rebuild either one.
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My mechanic guy (he is building my crawler) said the engine swap is really easy. Motor mounts need to be changed, but I have the AX5 which he said the 6 will bolt up to or I might (worse case sec.) need a adapter.
I was thinking of getting this for either one of the engines. Not sure what the difference is between overhaul, rebuild, and master rebuild kits. The master is the most expensive so I figure it is the more in depth one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AMC-JEEP-4-0L-242-CID-Master-Rebuild-Kit-87-95_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4833080ec4QQitemZ310093811396QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
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My mechanic guy (he is building my crawler) said the engine swap is really easy. Motor mounts need to be changed, but I have the AX5 which he said the 6 will bolt up to or I might (worse case sec.) need a adapter.
I was thinking of getting this for either one of the engines. Not sure what the difference is between overhaul, rebuild, and master rebuild kits. The master is the most expensive so I figure it is the more in depth one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AMC-JEEP-4-0L-242-CID-Master-Rebuild-Kit-87-95_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4833080ec4QQitemZ310093811396QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
there is no way to mate the AX5 to the 6cyl (any reasonable way i mean). bellhousing is different, so is the flywheel/pressure plate/clutch and the dimensions of the input shaft and splines that go into the clutch disk. You will need the transmission as well as the transfer case or to replace the input shaft in your NP231 t-case.
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How easy is it to convert manual to automatic? This donor vehicle I can get everything T-case, tranny, engine, wire harness and ecu for less than $300.00. Mine is an manual though
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why would you want to bolt a 6cyl to an ax-5? I would just keep the 4cyl... or mod the 4cyl out some. That or find a 6cyl YJ (I think thats what you have) and swap your mods over to that one :confused: All in all its a lot of work...
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The good thing is I don't have to do the work :) I set this guys show up with a camera system and auto lights, etc... for free which is about 2k labor. So he going to do my swap for free. Just have to find the right parts. Might trade my motorcycle for a donor jeep I found today.
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How easy is it to convert manual to automatic? This donor vehicle I can get everything T-case, tranny, engine, wire harness and ecu for less than $300.00. Mine is an manual though
what year?
i think you also need the steering column in that case in addition to complete wiring harness (in-cab and engine bay) and the instruments (in case the donor is the newer 91-95).
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what year?
i think you also need the steering column in that case in addition to complete wiring harness (in-cab and engine bay) and the instruments (in case the donor is the newer 91-95).
It is an 87-88 (the guy isn't sure on the year). And it is a XJ jeep cherokee.
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It is an 87-88 (the guy isn't sure on the year). And it is a XJ jeep cherokee.
i dunno how that would work so i take back the things i said about the harness(es)
and since it's an XJ the steering column is different, not sure what's involved there (i don't even know if the shifter is there or on the floor in the XJ, if i remember correctly it is at the steering column in a YJ auto).
I would look for a newer donor if i were you, and probably better if it's a YJ.
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97-88 cj would have the renix injected 4.0l... id hold out for a "ho" (91+) 4.0l if i was to consider a 4.0l swap...
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The shifter on my buddys XJ was on the console
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I believe police XJ's where the column shifters....
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My mechanic guy (he is building my crawler) said the engine swap is really easy. Motor mounts need to be changed, but I have the AX5 which he said the 6 will bolt up to or I might (worse case sec.) need a adapter.
I was thinking of getting this for either one of the engines. Not sure what the difference is between overhaul, rebuild, and master rebuild kits. The master is the most expensive so I figure it is the more in depth one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AMC-JEEP-4-0L-242-CID-Master-Rebuild-Kit-87-95_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4833080ec4QQitemZ310093811396QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
No polite way to say it :guns:, if your mechanic thinks a 6 will go in front of a AX5 hes an idiot. Run away. :yikes:
The AX5 is barely adequate behind the 4 cyl stock, even if you could adapt it.
Sometimes free is NOT a very good price. And I've seen lots of shops that produce cool stuff that is junk.
As far as rebuild kits, the cost between right and half done is too small to dink with,
go to a reputable supplier and buy a full kit. You want a solid kit with good head gaskets.
I know how to build engines, I pay a guy who knows how to do it really really well to do mine.
There is way more to it than you see in the service manual if you want it tough and smooth.
Of course I don't know what your goals are, but you need a target if you want to plan something.
Good Luck...
Dave
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What is the reason it cannot be adapted? Is it the flywheel, splines? I am curious because there is a guy in the 4x4 club who did it and am not sure if he had it machined or what. Maybe he is blowing smoke up my ass.
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What is the reason it cannot be adapted? Is it the flywheel, splines? I am curious because there is a guy in the 4x4 club who did it and am not sure if he had it machined or what. Maybe he is blowing smoke up my ass.
the bellhousing pattern is different
tranny input shaft is different too
what did he use to mate the ax-5 to the 6 cyl? the AX15 bellhousing won't bolt on to the AX5 so that's the challenge, i assume you can eventually find a way to get the clutch working. Maybe he got an adapter plate of some sort.
I think the general consensus is that since AX5 is so weak you shouldn't use it behind a 6cyl.
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To be honest I am not sure. I do not think he had the AX5 I think he had the Peugeot transmission. All I know is he did a 6cyl swap when he had a 4cyl without changing the transmission (he did end up doing a AX15 conversion about a year later).
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To be honest I am not sure. I do not think he had the AX5 I think he had the Peugeot transmission. All I know is he did a 6cyl swap when he had a 4cyl without changing the transmission (he did end up doing a AX15 conversion about a year later).
dunno anything about the Peugeot tranny. I did a NV3550 conversion behind my 4 banger so thinking of how you would do that backwards presents couple of challenges. the only thing i can think of (but this is just a long shot guess) is if the 4 cyl clutch disk would work with the 6 cyl flywheel and pressure plate then your only remaining problem is to have an adapter for the bellhousing or some bellhousing tha would mate the 6 cyl to the tranny. You cannot use the 4 cyl flywheel (even if the bolt pattern would be the same and regardless of the transmission whether is AX5 or Peugeot) as the 6 cyl has 3 sets of teeth for the crank sensor as opposed to the 4 cyl which has only 2 sets.
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I am going with the 225 mile engine with all the electrical and just buying a AX-15 and rebuilding it.
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I am going with the 225 mile engine with all the electrical and just buying a AX-15 and rebuilding it.
you'll also need either the t-case or the t-case input shaft (i think it's 21 spline for AX5 and 23 for AX15).
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Well i found out why I got so much blowby yesterday, bad rings :(
So we are dropping in a fuel injected 4.0 from a cherokee. Keeping my T-case and changing out the input shaft. Also in this deal I get the power steering box and powersteering pump. my 4.0 has neither. will be a nice change.
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If you haven't bought the new tcase input shaft, look into just buying a Used NP241 off a blaser,
I'd have to double check but I think it not only has the right input shaft it has the bigger chain and wider
sprockets in it...
It can be a good junkyard upgrade if you find all the right bits...
Dave
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That isn't a bad idea if I can find a low mileage one. I only have 70k on my Tcase
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If you haven't bought the new tcase input shaft, look into just buying a Used NP241 off a blaser,
I'd have to double check but I think it not only has the right input shaft it has the bigger chain and wider
sprockets in it...
It can be a good junkyard upgrade if you find all the right bits...
Dave
He would need to swap parts back and forth to get it to work. The whole front half will have to be swapped out as GM's are 5 bolt. The input spline is 27 which won't work either.
I think a better choice would be to look for a NVG-231HD or D. Dodge used the larger 1.25" chain and sprocket set as well as the 6 gear planetary set (Jeep 3 gear). The front half could be 6 bolt which is also a plus. I'm not sure on the spline count but I think it might be 23. Although when looking at spline count you have to also look into the shaft depth. There are long, medium and short as well as big bearing and small bearings, which confuse things a bit more.
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I thought they used the 231 and AX15 in the Blaser at one point,, Oops Keyboard error.
Dave
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I thought they used the 231 and AX15 in the Blaser at one point,, Oops Keyboard error.
Dave
Blazers used the NVG231-C (Chevy) as opposed to the NVG231-J (Jeep) or NVG231-D (Dodge). There is also a NVG231-HD but some things like the chain and planetary were also used in the Dodge.
Keep in mind the Dodge application was used with the 318 and NV3500 in the Dakota, Durango and Ram 1500. I don't believe GM ever used the Aisin AX-15 though. They used the NV3500 like the Dodges.
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Some blaser have T5 tranny as well, I though ther was a adapter on those that mated to the 231, which it probably did, but not eh right NP231 :biggrin:
Dave
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New hookup! Found a entire drive train, for 400, and its a manual! A lot of miles so I am just going to rebuild it but way better now since I get power steering and everything else instead of a bare bones engine.
it is an 85-89 cherokee. I know I need new motor mounts for the inline 6, but if I am pulling everything from the cherokee is there anything other than that i need?
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New hookup! Found a entire drive train, for 400, and its a manual! A lot of miles so I am just going to rebuild it but way better now since I get power steering and everything else instead of a bare bones engine.
it is an 85-89 cherokee. I know I need new motor mounts for the inline 6, but if I am pulling everything from the cherokee is there anything other than that i need?
isn't that a Renix?
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To be honest i am not sure I just know it is a 4.0 inline 6 with MPI system, AX15 and the Tcase to match.
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isn't that a Renix?
4.0L HO MPFI started in 1991, so yes.
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4.0L HO MPFI started in 1991, so yes.
was more rhetorical :lol:
1987-1990 4.0 L, 242 CID AMC 242 I6, 173 hp with Renix fuel injection system
1991-1996 4.0 L, 242 CID AMC 242 "High Output" I6, 190 hp (142 kW) with Chrysler fuel injection system
i mean, ... if you go thru the trouble
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was more rhetorical :lol:
1987-1990 4.0 L, 242 CID AMC 242 I6, 173 hp with Renix fuel injection system
1991-1996 4.0 L, 242 CID AMC 242 "High Output" I6, 190 hp (142 kW) with Chrysler fuel injection system
i mean, ... if you go thru the trouble
I wouldn't bother with a Renix either.
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Now the question is since I am getting everything - complete swap, how can i go about upgrading to the chrysler? Are we talking another 1k into the injection system?
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you look for another donor, honestly.
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That is the problem here in Nevada, everyone and their grandmother drives a Jeep/4runner/etc... Lake Tahoe a 4wd is needed so finding this donor was a chance. All I want is a 6cyl really. I don't plan on crawling this one really, more of a daily driver and maybe hit a trail once and awhile but nothing heavy. I want a CJ6-7 for crawling.
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That is the problem here in Nevada, everyone and their grandmother drives a Jeep/4runner/etc... Lake Tahoe a 4wd is needed so finding this donor was a chance. All I want is a 6cyl really. I don't plan on crawling this one really, more of a daily driver and maybe hit a trail once and awhile but nothing heavy. I want a CJ6-7 for crawling.
For crawling it doesn't really matter what engine you have. With proper gearing anything can crawl. If you want a daily driver then get a good engine. The Renix was only used from 1987-1990 and was really only a band-aid to give Chrysler time to bring out the AMC HO 4.0L. The HO 4.0L was used from 1991 to 2006. There's a reason why it was used for such a long time. It was that good. The only thing that killed it was the ever increasing emission standard and the fact that the Wrangler was the only Jeep using that engine.
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will the wireharness or wireloom from my 4banger fit on the one off the 87 cherokee? I have the one off the cherokee but it is a rats nest would rather use mine but not sure if it will plug into a ecu from a pcu or if there is a adapter for it. Also should I snag the fuse box out of the donor jeep or will mine work?
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will the wireharness or wireloom from my 4banger fit on the one off the 87 cherokee? I have the one off the cherokee but it is a rats nest would rather use mine but not sure if it will plug into a ecu from a pcu or if there is a adapter for it. Also should I snag the fuse box out of the donor jeep or will mine work?
You will have to check the pin-out on both harnesses. They should be similar but you will want to double check.
Still going to go forward with that Renix 4.0L huh?
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will the wireharness or wireloom from my 4banger fit on the one off the 87 cherokee? I have the one off the cherokee but it is a rats nest would rather use mine but not sure if it will plug into a ecu from a pcu or if there is a adapter for it. Also should I snag the fuse box out of the donor jeep or will mine work?
first off yours is a TBI and the Renix is an MPFI so the harness is not even close, secondly the ECUs are different (unlike the 91-95 where the basis is the same between 4 and 6 cylinders, but even there the 4 and 6 harnesses are different - that is the missing 2 injectors and the length)
your only hope is that the in-cab harness connector(s) will mate with the engine bay harness connector (if they are split that way) and that the pinouts are compatible
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Still going to go forward with that Renix 4.0L huh?
Yeah it is my only option for now, and I might as well learn doing this with a crappy motor than a really good one. At least my motor mounts will be there for if I want or find a newer engine.
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i have to agree that the renix is problematic at best. u also might want to watch out if ur in that mid 80's range for a ba10 peoget tranny cause it is the worst thing that ever landed in the xj's. i would rather have an ax5 behind a big block than a ba10 behind a 3cyl metro motor. the only thing with the renix is the common parts are not available (tb upgrades and such), they are more problematic, and the power just isnt there. i know the factory numbers make them look close but realistically the ho is way more powerful. just know what ur getting into, lots of places are shipping motors and such with free freight because of lack of business. 400 for a renix drivetrain that is worn out is not really a good deal if you ask me
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400 for a renix drivetrain that is worn out is not really a good deal if you ask me
Well it was 400 for everything. The entire rig. Just had to give rolling chaise back. I guess I am looking at it this way, it is going to cost me about 1k to have it pulled, rebuilt, and installed. I cannot do the work myself due to lack of knowledge and shop, etc... I just need a running engine until I make my move to Denver for a new job. Hopefully I can find a better engine out there when I start making more money and praying not everyone and their grandmother drives a wrangler so I can find a good donor vehicle. I don't know what it is about lake Tahoe but they take all the good shit.
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Well it was 400 for everything. The entire rig. Just had to give rolling chaise back. I guess I am looking at it this way, it is going to cost me about 1k to have it pulled, rebuilt, and installed. I cannot do the work myself due to lack of knowledge and shop, etc... I just need a running engine until I make my move to Denver for a new job. Hopefully I can find a better engine out there when I start making more money and praying not everyone and their grandmother drives a wrangler so I can find a good donor vehicle. I don't know what it is about lake Tahoe but they take all the good Jell-O.
If you're going to have to pay a shop for parts and labor, why not look for a 4.0L that has fewer miles and doesn't need all that work? Then you won't have to farm out jobs.
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If you're going to have to pay a shop for parts and labor, why not look for a 4.0L that has fewer miles and doesn't need all that work? Then you won't have to farm out jobs.
I did for four months while I was trying to figure out the blow-by, well now the 4banger is dead and my gf is off of spring break in a week so have to get it fixed fast. rings went bye bye in the 4banger :(
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I did for four months while I was trying to figure out the blow-by, well now the 4banger is dead and my gf is off of spring break in a week so have to get it fixed fast. rings went bye bye in the 4banger :(
Hell, I'd drop in a new 2.5L and call it done. If you're feeling adventurous, drop in a MPFI OBDI. It would be a lot cheaper and get you back on the road fast.
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Hell, I'd drop in a new 2.5L and call it done. If you're feeling adventurous, drop in a MPFI OBDI. It would be a lot cheaper and get you back on the road fast.
X2
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yeah i think i would just do a new 2.5 too and if your set on the 4.0 ull have more time to find a good one. believe me between the renix 4.0 and the mpfi 2.5 id take the 4banger anyday, then find a 4.0 and take time to have it built up well and itll actually be worth it in the end instead of wasting money rebuilding a motor that u plan on gettin rid of anyway
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Yes I know you all think this is a bad idea, but i have an update. It is pretty damn near a brand new engine. We removed everything and tore down last two days pulled out the cam, looked at injectors. My mechanic said this engine can't have more than 20k on the engine. I do not have to replace anything. I think I am still going to overhaul since I get the kit for $30.00 from my buddy who is manager at Kragen, just for piece of mind. We found a chrysler injector system too, just have to find out if the guy wants my offer or not.
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if it doesnt have many miles on it then why rebuild it? the kit might be 30 bucks but still labor, hey man its ur jeep whatever works for ya were just trying to give some suggestions and advise
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if it doesnt have many miles on it then why rebuild it? the kit might be 30 bucks but still labor, hey man its ur jeep whatever works for ya were just trying to give some suggestions and advise
where do you get a $30 kit - i'm interested - post a link please (i understand that it might not be $30 but whatever cheapest you know).
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Labor is free for me, which is nice. The reason why and I know people will say not to do it. I am moving to Denver soon where I know no one. No friends who know what their doing, no mechanic who gives me free labor, etc... I have a Truck as well that I just finished building and with everything new I have piece of mind. If I rebuild this it is like a new engine and will give me piece of mind I need until I make some friends, etc... it probably sounds dumb/stupid, but with labor prices out there plus parts to me spending 30 for that mind set isn't a bad deal, ya know?
To sharp, I do not have any links. My buddy said he could get me an overhaul kit for $30.00. This is the same buddy who is manager of Kragen so I figure it is from them with his discount maybe? Or he has some good hookups. i priced one out for 189 (at) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AMC-JEEP-4-0L-242-CID-Engine-Overhaul-Kit-87-91_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4833080ec0QQitemZ310093811392QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories