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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: rc10t4orange on March 16, 2010, 07:20:51 PM
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Well I'm hoping and praying that I don't have a bent frame. I bought my Jeep having been in a rear collision. I thought there was no frame damage and I really still don't think there is. I bought it from my mom so I know how the accident happened. It was hit in the rear a taller truck and pushed in the tailgate, spare tire, and left rear behind the license plate. The rear bumper has one small dent in the left rear didn't even colapse it all the way. Any all that to say with the stock tires and a 2"BB it drove fine even up to 70+. I put 31's on it and found out the right rear rubs the upper spring mount and the left rear is @2-3 inches clear. I really really don't think the frame is bent. Is it possible for the track bar or bent things that link the axle to the body?? HELP please about to rub a whole in the tire!!! :'(
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I would suspect it to be a Jeep TJ? from your description.
What more than likely has happened is the bb lift was installed without track bar brackets. In the rear, you should have installed a riser bracket off the axle. The bracket basically recenters the rear axle under the frame. In the front, the bracket on the axle is redrilled 3/4" over to bring the axle more centered under the frame. The track bar is to maintain the axle under the frame since it is a specific length. Any height difference between the axle and frame pushes or pulls the axle off center from the frame from the track bar.
So I doubt the frame is bent and the track bar bracket was not installed. Rather than look for a riser bracket that wasn't installed, look to install an adjustable front and rear track bars.
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Wouldn't it rub on the left side instead of the right though. The way I think about it with the rear track bar being attached to the body on the right it would move the axle to the right when lifted causing the left side to rub. Mine rubs on the right side. I am determined to figure this out. Thanks for the help. Any other ideas or expand on this one. It is a TJ
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What you're seeing is the stacking of tolerances. It's common to get one side rubbing but the other side doesn't. If you're really worried then take a tape measure out and start measuring from the frame to the axle at different points. If you find the axle is offset then start with the track bar and go from there. With a 2" lift you're already starting to affect the alignment so you might want to check that as well.
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Wouldn't it rub on the left side instead of the right though. The way I think about it with the rear track bar being attached to the body on the right it would move the axle to the right when lifted causing the left side to rub. Mine rubs on the right side. I am determined to figure this out. Thanks for the help. Any other ideas or expand on this one. It is a TJ
You are correct, as the jeep is lifted the rear axle should shift towards the right, thus rubbing on the left side coil bucket. You have some serious issues since the rear axle appears to be offset quite a bit despite having a spacer lift that should have offset it the opposite direction.
Can you post a pic of the jeep taken from behind?
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Thanks for the help guys. I will try to post some pics this evening. Could someone point me to the posting pictures instruction thread? When I get home tonight I will take pics and post'em. Thank You all very much Josh.
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Thanks for the help guys. I will try to post some pics this evening. Could someone point me to the posting pictures instruction thread? When I get home tonight I will take pics and post'em. Thank You all very much Josh.
You can host them on Photobucket, Picasa or any other site that allows hot linking. You can also attach the photo to your post and have it hosted on the forum.
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Here are some pics. More opinions?? Thanks Josh.
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/sideviewlifted.jpg
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/rearview.jpg
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/damage.jpg
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/right.jpg
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/left.jpg
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All if your pictures got uploaded as thumbnails. Make sure PB is set to full size when you upload them.
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I'm an idiot! I can't figure out how to make pics work :brick:
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I'm an idiot! I can't figure out how to make pics work :brick:
grab the photobucket link with the IMG tag, the bottom one. Cut and paste it in your reply.
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he only uploaded thumbnails, here's the album but they're all tiny http://s372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/
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(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/damage.jpg)
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/leftside-1.jpg)
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/rightside-1.jpg)
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/rearview-2.jpg)
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/sideviewlifted-2.jpg)
:brick:
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I would check your track bar
and even see if it's ripped off my buddy did that to his before
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is the rubber bushing at the axle end of the track bar good? also check and see if it's not bent.
there is about 1/2'' or so of adjustment where at the trackbar bracket on the axle, check and see if you can loosen that bolt and move the axle to the right, but it seems to be offset more than you can adjust
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You might consider putting on an off-camber slope to see if it slides back to a more normal position. If this happens you will most likely directly see what the problem is.
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looks like it's moved towards the driver's side which is opposite to what would offset if you lift it, so i tend to think something is bent
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take some pictures of your track bar and suspension
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The accident wasn't hard enough to do much damage to anything other then the body. I'd check the bushings and them maybe disconnect the track bar and see if it changes anything. Check the bushings and make sure the control arms aren't bent. Might as well measure the control arms to axle and frame points to see if they're even
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Can't see too much of a problem other than it is rubbing the opposite from the track bar mount.
Couple of things could have happened during and after the accident. Check the track bar mounts both on the axle and the frame. Like others suggested, look at the bushings as well. The accident may have impacted the axle mount and cracked if off the tubing.
Next, tires are the same. Are the wheels the same? And mounted on the axle correctly (not turned around)? From the pic of the passenger side, it looks like they are the 5-spoke steel 15x7 rims. You may have a mix of Jeep rims with different offset (backspacing) on the rims. Your spare is the basic 15x6 steel slot rim and probably has the 205/75R-15 tire on it. So the wheel is different.
Swap rear tires from right to left and see if there is still the same problem. When you have the rear wheels off, lay them on the ground with the outside down. Measure the depthness of the wheel mounting surface (wms) wrt the tire - take a tape measure and use a horizontal bar or piece of wood across the tire. Measure to the wms which contacts the brake drum. They should be the same. If you can, do the same to the front wheels as well.
The track bar mount and the bushing on the frame behind the coil on the passenger side looks good from the pic. The lower control arms and the sway bar links look like they are the same on both sides.
Do note, you are missing the rubber bump stops that fit in the holder inside the spring.
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I assume it is adjustable on the axle end?? I had the body end off a couple of times. I noticed that the axle end has one of those dang torx head bolts I hate. Thanks for the input I did not know it was adjustable it is hard to tell. I am leaning towards getting the measurements off of a good track bar and comparing those to mine. Anyone have those measurements?? Thanks Josh.
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I assume it is adjustable on the axle end?? I had the body end off a couple of times. I noticed that the axle end has one of those dang torx head bolts I hate. Thanks for the input I did not know it was adjustable it is hard to tell. I am leaning towards getting the measurements off of a good track bar and comparing those to mine. Anyone have those measurements?? Thanks Josh.
Nope the stock track bar is a fixed length. I have an adjustable so I'm no help with stock length. The bracket on the axle has a torx bolt holding it in. Yep, computerized machines put the vehicle together and they use precise tools and precise toleranced fasteners which is why many of the bolts are torx. The bracket shouldn't look bent and check the welds on the housing as well for cracks.
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Anybody have a stock track bar and control arms they are willing to sell? If not I'm going to check salvage then new. Thanks Josh
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Anybody have a stock track bar and control arms they are willing to sell? If not I'm going to check salvage then new. Thanks Josh
You really should take some measurements before you start throwing money at it.
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I assume it is adjustable on the axle end?? I had the body end off a couple of times. I noticed that the axle end has one of those dang torx head bolts I hate. Thanks for the input I did not know it was adjustable it is hard to tell. I am leaning towards getting the measurements off of a good track bar and comparing those to mine. Anyone have those measurements?? Thanks Josh.
the hole in the bracket at the axle end is oval (at least on my '95 YJ was and i would think your's would be the same) but looks like your axle is off to the left more than you can adjust - check the bushings there too and visually inspect the bracket.
look at the rims as well like it was suggested before
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I measured the rims from the outside they are all the same. I also put a level from the lower control arm up on each side leveled it vertically and measured to the frame. Left side=1/2" right side=1 3/4". Thanks Josh
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I measured the rims from the outside they are all the same. I also put a level from the lower control arm up on each side leveled it vertically and measured to the frame. Left side=1/2" right side=1 3/4". Thanks Josh
You should be measuring the arms lengths. You will probably also want to disconnect the track-bar so you know for sure it's not shifting the axle either way. Also measure from fixed parts of the axle and to the mounts on the frame so you're measuring the actual distances and not just control arm lengths.
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Well I got a known good track bar and compared it to mie and actually installed it didnt change a thing. I'm gonna post some pics here in a bit best I can tell nothing is bent. Swapped wheels from side to side didnt matter. I even measured the wheel base, front control mount to rear and cross ways to check square all ok. Measuring from frame to outside of tire left stick out 1 1/4" farther. My next step is to compare control arms side to side. Pcs coming soon. Thanks Josh
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(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/axletrackbarmount.jpg)
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/frametrackbarmount1.jpg)
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/frametrackbarmount2.jpg)
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/lhlca.jpg)
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/rhlca.jpg)
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interesting, so i guess the hole on the TJ bracket is not oval.
EDIT: oops, YOUR AXLE IS BENT - that makes sense now since everything else looks like is fine.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/axle_maybe_bent.jpg)
EDIT: here's a better one
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/axletrackbarmount3.jpg)
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that would do it for sure
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Hard to tell. Could be the lens of the camera that's causing the bend since it's close to the edges of the pic.
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Hard to tell. Could be the lens of the camera that's causing the bend since it's close to the edges of the pic.
i doubt it as other edges look straight - but i guess to make sure he can put a level or ruler or some straight edge along the underside of the tube and verify that way. I don't see any other reason for that offset and this kinda' makes sense - we'll have to wait for an update from him.
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Well I guess I will have to put a straight edge on it today and see about what you guys are talking about. Thanks Josh.
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I think Sharp is right, look at the track bar mount, its canted to the right because of the bent axle tube. That explains why the axle is over more to the left side.
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(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/axle.jpg)
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/lhaxle.jpg)
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/rhaxle.jpg)
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The axle doesn't seem bent in these last pictures but keep in mind that the D35 will flex when lifted from the center like that.
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The axle doesn't seem bent in these last pictures but keep in mind that the D35 will flex when lifted from the center like that.
also, his other pic was from a different angle, so it could be that in this view is straight but it is bent on a different plane. hard to tell now though, but he could figure it out with a 1 ft level or ruler, seemed pretty obvious from the other picture.
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It really looks like the track bar axle bracket is bent.
I no longer have a D35 axle so I'm no help for comparing pics of the bracket.
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The camera he's using has a bit of a fish-eye thing going on. Is it a cell phone? Like I said before the camera could be making it appear things are bent when the actually aren't.
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From this picture, it looks to be the track bar bracket is bent.
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo167/rc10t4orange/JEEP/lhaxle.jpg)
I believe the bracket should be vertical (90*) off the axle. For the amount the axle is off, the bracket has to be off that much. I don't think the axle housing can be bent enough to get the amount of space issue he's having for rubbing a tire.
He's stated he's measured and also swapped the wheels around so they had the same wheel with same bs. I don't have a D35 rear axle for a TJ any more.
Is there a local club near you. You could go look at another TJ from the club and do a side by side comparison. Hell, go look at a TJ for sale off craigslist.
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I'm gonna take the track bar out tonight and set it back down to see if it will move over. If that works then I will definatly work on that track bar bracket. I don't know what is up with my camera it is a nicer 3 or 4 year old Sony. I will use a different camera next time also. Thanks for everyones input. I will post when it is figured out. Thanks Josh.
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I'm gonna take the track bar out tonight and set it back down to see if it will move over. If that works then I will definatly work on that track bar bracket. I don't know what is up with my camera it is a nicer 3 or 4 year old Sony. I will use a different camera next time also. Thanks for everyones input. I will post when it is figured out. Thanks Josh.
That's what I said earlier...
Cameras, especially P&S's can and do, warp things when you try to take pictures close up. It's a part of the lens design that you don't usually notice until you're zoomed in really close. If you stay further back and zoom in, it shouldn't distort as much.
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That's what I said earlier...
Cameras, especially P&S's can and do, warp things when you try to take pictures close up. It's a part of the lens design that you don't usually notice until you're zoomed in really close. If you stay further back and zoom in, it shouldn't distort as much.
yeah, looks straight from further away
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I would find it hard to believe the axle tubing is bent. The axle is offset to the side not the tire forward or backward. If the tubing was bent, mtl the tire would be offset in the well and not the whole axle shifted to one side.
Based on the accident, I would think the links to the axle and thier mounts would be bent and/or off. Since the track bar is much thicker than the control arms, I wouldn't think the track bar itself is the issue. From the impact, the 'jolt' on the body to the frame to the brakes holding the axle, I'm guessing the brackets would be bent. It would be obvious, I would think, if any of the arms were bent as they are stamped steel pieces pretty much straight. They also go into the brackets straight and are 90* to their mounting bolts.
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I took out the track bar and set the Jeep back down. It did not move to where it was supposed to be without the track bar. Even shaking the Jeep violently did not move it over without the track bar. I also took out the lower control arms they don't look bent even switched sides didn't affect the position of the axle any. Leanin towards the track bar/upper control arm mount on lh axle side being bent. ?????????????
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Got a guy coming over with his Jeep probably this weekend gonna measure everything I can to see what is wrong with mine. Thanks Josh.
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I know you guys are all gonna say duh but, given the circumstances of the accident my jeep was in I wanted to get measurements to make sure. I had my jeep and my buddies side by side today. From the left rear backing plate to the center of the track bar bolt was 12" on his and 13" on mine. From the backing plate to just above the upper control arm bolt 12 1/4" on his 12 3/4" on mine. Now I know it is absolutely the control arm/track bar bracket. I can heat,beat,cut, and/or weld what ever I need to do. I just wanted to make sure that was it instead of doin all that first and it not being it. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU to all who gave me input I will do my best to give input on things I think I know a little about cause you all did that for me. I will also post when I get it fixed.
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Glad you got it figured out
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Glad you got it figured out
+1
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Jeep is fixed. Matter of fact almost went to far. I took a come-a-long and wrapped a chain around the bracket and braced the axle on the left and pulled it over. I moved it almost the inch it was off. Now looks like I may have to get an adjustable track bar in the near future. But atleast it is driveable now and not gonna rub a hole on thw inside of the tire. Thanks for all the help.
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Yah, my eyes were figuring that is what the issue was.
Since you pulled the bracket back, you may have placed the force in a different location than the force which bent it. This fatigues the metal material and creates points where the material will get weak as it was compressed and stretched. You best keep an eye on it and from time to time, more often with wheeling where the axle cycles up/down and there is a push/pull from the track bar. You'd be best to look for a local Jeep or 4wd club to associate. Many clubs have weekend welders that are pretty good and don't mind to help out another wheeler for little money (compared to some actual welding services) or for free.
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x2 the metal could fatigue.