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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: blacknblue on March 28, 2010, 01:16:32 PM
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After a brutal Chicago winter I now realize that my frame has significant corrosion. So bad that 2 of the mounting bolts for my transfer case skid on the passenger side are rusted off and completely gone. As for the skid itself, the dimple mount has rusted off at the last bolt on the passenger side. The skid is hanging off on the passenger side. I am now planning on upgrading the skid to Skyjacker's High Clearance Skid. This is the only kit I have found that comes with new bolts and has Zinc coating for corrosion resistance, plus an extra 2" clearance won't hurt.
I have tried to remove the other mounting bolts and they are rusted so bad that the thread is gone and they are just spinning in the frame. I may have to saws-all the bolts off. I looked at the mounting holes in the frame were the other bolts fell out and there is no thread at all. I am considering my options here do I tap the already corroding frame or install something like a Heli-coil? Anyone have experience with this kind of problem?
I now realize that I am going to have to start the POR-15 rust treatment I bought a while ago. My frame is rusting from the inside, really bad at the frame holes. I plan on blowing out the loose rust with compressed air and spraying in some rust converter paint for the hell of it and possibly filling in the holes in the frame with either POR-Patch or POR Epoxy Putty and then doing the POR-15 treatment for my frame covering over the openings. I see no need for the frame holes, all they do is collect water and rust the inside of the frame. If I ever needed to mount something I can always drill them out.
If anyone has experience with treating a rusted frame I would greatly appreciate any kind advice.
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The frame has nutserts in it, for the transfercase skidplate. It's kinda like a riveted on nut. You can drill a hole all the way through the frame make spacers for the height of the frame out of some tubing and use long bolts that go all the way through the frame as an easy fix
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An easier way is is drill out the welds for the nutcerts and remove them. Then weld nuts to a strip of steel. Then weld the whole thing to the bottom of the frame. You may have to drill out the old holes so it fits flush against the frame. (nuts inside the frame not hanging down)
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I have similar problem but where the nutsert broke from its weld.
The nutsert is actually a threaded tube with a flange on the bottom.
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/TJ/Broke/100_0677.jpg)
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Had the same problem with my skid plate except the PO had welded the skid to the frame on the drivers side.
I ground the welds out, then drilled out the stripped holes just big enough to insert the proper size nuts
through the hole. I used an 8" bolt (to give myself room to work) to hold non plated nuts centered in the hole's
and tacked them into place. Once they were tacked in place I welded them in completely let them cool and ran a tap through them. I repaired the bolt holes in the skid by welding in large thick flat washer's.
If you decide to go this route make sure you get a proficient welder to do the welding on the frame.
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I just ordered the Skyjacker High Clearance Skid Plate part #SJ-SP28A. The A I assume is for the included tranfer case shifter relocation bracket. I recently had to repair the shifter linkage, I have always had occasional problems shifting into 4wd, probably from the p.o.'s 3" body lift. I am excited to experience smoother shifts with the new relocation bracket. Also gonna have to get a transfer case lowering kit for the time being for the driveline vibration caused by raising the skid. Eventually I plan on doing a lift and will be using a slip yoke eliminator kit and a C.V. driveshaft...but that is down the road a bit.
My plan is I to have my neighboor who is a machinist fabricate some stainless steel plates with new nuts welded on. Then I will drill out the nutserts and weld the plates to the frame. Then I will use POR-15 over the new plates and the frame before installation. If my new camera gets here by then I will do a write up. And yeah I will be using a profiecient welder for this. Thank you all for your suggestions. :thumbsup:
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Holesaw to drill the insert out and then weld a flange nut into the bottom of the frame.
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i just buy grade 8 bolts and drill a large hole to fit the nut with a lock washer through the frame. and hold it with a wrench. 2001 and up ford explorers always have the bolts snap off at the head for the crossmember and it is a brutal repair. however rust from the inside out really sounds like a sucky situation. i don't idea on how to completely remove the cancer on the inside. changing the frames on jeeps arent too bad though you do need alot of room and space.
yeah but the frame you're getting might be in the same shape (or will be) - were you thinking a new frame? how much do those go for?
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talkin bouts a new frame. they are around 2800 galvanized i believe. check out 4WD.com and get free catalogs. i believe they are only available for yj cj-5 and 7
i know you can find them at the major retailers, i was wondering if there is a source for cheap ones - mine is fine so i don't need one right now, i wish it was galvanized though.
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I am in chicago as well...the holes in the frame are there for a reason. To let condensation evaporate other wise they would rust out even quicker. I cut a square hole in the side of the frame. sawzalled bolt and sleeve crap out. then I dropped a grade 8 bolts in it so the threads were on the outside. I then had the square hole welded shut with a plate. It has worked well for my lil yj. I understand the need for the high clearance belly on tjs. Its like a shovel.
Every spring and fall I try and scrape any loose stuff off the frame and brush on rustoleum black. It has worked fairly well to slow it down. Tho I didnt get a chance last fall and I could tell the difference when scraping andd painting this last week.
I have had hit and miss effects with por15...some places I used it it worked great. others it held together because so thick but under it rust grew. I pretty much stick to rustoleum cause when it pops up I can hit it again before structural damage.
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I like Hammerite or if I can't find that, Rustolium Professional in the tall silver can.
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im starting to get some rust around the edges of the frame holes. Mine is a 98 and it barely has any rust on it. Ill be going over to my buddy's place tomorrow to help him de-rust his TJ. He has an 04 and has significant amount of surface rust-esp on the rear bumper. He bought a rust kit from quadratec. ill post about it once we're done. if it works well ill prob hit mine with some rust inhibitor as well.
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hammerite...I have had it pop off metal quicker then rustoleum but that could be my lack of prep skills..I does go on thick simular to por 15. Made by same compan that makes kills. another thing I noticed with the hammerite is it takes a looonnng time to dry. like por 15 didnt stick as well to new furnishes as well as imperfect furnishes. Hammerite is 50 a gallon in chicago and rustoleum is half that. I just ran out of rustoleum and have a bit of frame togo. I will finish with hammerite and we will see next spring if theres a difference.
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I like the idea of being able to spot repair the frame if any rust comes back with a spray on product versus the POR-15. It seems like it would be a big P.I.T.A. to patch POR-15 spots with rust underneath it.
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POR-15 is mentioned a lot but seems to yield inconsistent results, it's affected by UV, etc. I've had better luck with Rustoleum rust converter or just about any brand I can find, brushed on. I go around the Jeep in hot weather and scrape the rust spots a bit and then brush this stuff on. It works really well. Some spots have been in the sun for about two years unpainted and no rust has returned.
I have heard that Naval Jelly might be even better but I haven't tried it.
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What I don't like about Por-15 is that it's usually very lumpy. They use it a lot as undercoating for trucks in Hawaii but I think it looks terrible. You will still want to treat the rusty area to neutralize it to it's not going to rust under the paint. Stuff like rustilium and Hammerite do neutralize rust. Although, if it's bad, I would wire brush it and then use Naval Jelly. It will cause the rust to turn black and go inert. If you have a lot of rust you'll still want to wire brush it and chip off any scale.
On a side note: I noticed in Qtec, they have replacement frame pieces so you can cut and patch your frame. The pieces are a bit expensive though.
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O.K. so the t.c. skid arrived today missing the shifter relocation bracket that is supposed to come with it, and the Skyjacker decals and warning sticker (skyjacker voids warranty without this decal displayed in the cab). I ordered this thru Amazon for $508.95 plus $49.10 for shipping...so it was listed by DiscountJeepParts.com which is run by Tellico4x4 it seems. Of course when I called the warehouse is closed, but I will give them a chance to reconcile this tommorow.
------- " Skyjacker High Clearance Transfer Case Skid Plate for Jeep TJ 1997-04 w/Automatic Transmission. Includes Automatic Transmission Shifter Relocation Bracket (P/N SJ-JSRB231A).
Made from 3/16" steel with formed and gusseted corners. A Z-bend internal crossmember provides ulitmate load capacity to withstand abuse from the harshest terrain. Zinc finish for a great look and corrosion resistance."
The 3/16" steel is thick and heavy duty, it will most definately be able to take some serious punishment off road. The sides are boatsided and the overall profile is only 1 5/8"! :biggrin: The bottom is smooth and has several drain holes in the middle. I am not a big fan of the Zinc coated look, but for practicality I believe in anything against the war on rust. I am going to lightly fine sand it, prime it, and paint it to match the frame rails.
Now I need to rent a tranny jack, pick up some sawzall blades and a hole saw for the nutserts as well as the new nuts. I wonder if it is better to weld the nuts to a piece of steel and then weld that to the frame or just weld the new nuts into the frame. I would think it would be stronger with the steel plate, but would that interfere with a long arm lift sub frame brackets...IF I ever went with a long arm lift? Also going to pick up some anti-sieze lubricant so the nut and bolt don't rust weld again in the future, and I need to drop the skid to do a Advanced Adapter SYE and a Tom Woods CV driveshaft next month.
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you can get away without a tranny jack - just have a regular jack under the bellhousing where it meets the transmission (unless you lift the whole jeep up high, then you need one)
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I think I saw a cradle at harbour freight to turn your regular floor jack in to a transmission jack. You just pull out the round disc and the craddle just drops down in the hole. I think it was only 15-20 bucks. Im pretty sure thats where I saw it at
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thanks Sharpaxeman,
I am supporting the transmission with my floor jack at the bellhousing. After putting my rig up on 4 jackstands and taking off my wheels this is job is getting more involved as now I am noticing rust forming everywhere. I am going to be using Naval Jelly with a brush, as that was also recommended by my neighbor the machinist. Not sure yet on the topcoat, but I am looking at Rustoleum products also recommended by my buddy. So far I was able to remove one of the bolts with the stripped out nutsert by using a pry bar and putting pressure on the skid to kind of pull as I used an impact. I have two left and will probably be using the sawsall now that I have a little bit of room to get the blade in. I am waiting for the shifter relocation bracket to arrive from Tellico 4x4 next week.
I saw a good write up on this particullar problem here........http://articles.jeepforum.com/Nutsert_Removal_and_Install
I am not sure that I want to remove and replace the nustserts, as this is a pain in the ass of a problem to have pop up again in the future. So most likely I will be drilling out the frame holes and welding in new nuts. I am questioning if having the nuts welded to some plate steel will interfere with mounting subframe brackets for a long arm lift as they sometimes are sandwiched between the skid and the frame using the frame rail mounting holes? :confused:
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Finally found the part number for the mopar nutserts for a TJ...part number #06 035739. I decided to go the POR-15 route for the rust treatment of my frame. I am doing everything I can reach without taking everything off...p.i.t.a. I am also going to by spraying on the por-15 topcoat with an air gun. I am cleaning out the inside of the frame of loose rust by using a blow pipe attachment for the compressor and some 3/8 flexible tubing to reach inside the frame. I plan on installing the nutserts first and then using this product called BILT HAMBER - DYNAX S-50 750ML ANTI CORROSION WAX - PMBHDS50 This is a cavity wax product that comes in an areosol can with an flexible extension wand to get inside of the frame. Here is the link...http://www.agriemach.com/product_info.php?products_id=1060&osCsid=t25cpjokngp8hr67ju1aresqm1
Here is the product info....Dynax S50 is a high-performance anti-corrosion wax that provides exceptionally long-lasting protection to steel surfaces. It creeps into welded seams and seals surface defects. Dynax S50 forms a soft, brown, wax-like film that self-heals in the event of disruption. It is also able to arrest existing corrosion and to provide long-term protection to pre-corroded and corrosion-free surfaces.
Dynax S50 has been proven to substantially outperform competitive material in salt-spray trials under conditions of ASTM B117.
Dynax S50's soft-film is optimised for enclosed cavities where extremely corrosive conditions develop. Dynax S50 is also recommended for protection of valuable machinery and component in transit, machine tools, moulds etc.
The advanced metal seeking anti-corrosion molecules which form Dynax S50 are able to displace water, so even damp surfaces can be protected, these same molecules arrest and prevent corrosion even on already rusty surfaces and provide remarkable self-healing abilities if the film is damaged. Whilst Dynax S50 is primarily a cavity rustproofing compound it’s also able to prevent corrosion in a multitude of mud traps and water collecting voids. Dynax S50 has been used with superb results to protect voids and cavities in steel boats, vessels, off shore installations and other steel structures subject to severely corrosive atmospheres.
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Since this product is from England they cannot ship areosols to the states. Until I find a way around that, I may end up buying the gallon and using a spray gun with some kind of tube rigged up to get inside the frame rails.
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Found a supplier of a product similar to the Bilt Hamber Dynax s50 from England. This is a USA manufacture called Eastwood. Here is the link to the product called Internal Frame Coating....http://www.eastwood.com/internal-frame-coating-w-spray-nozzle.html
Hope this helps some people with similar rust problems. :thumbsup:
Now I just need to recover from a knee injury from riding my brothers ATV and bouncing my knee off the snowplow lever he neglected to remove for the summer. Spending the next week or 2 in my recliner on pain meds. :pot:
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Finally finished applying POR-15 to my frame, axles, front linkage, lower control arms, body mounts, oil pan..etc...etc. I tested it by hand painted my frame two coats to begin with and it did start to rust thru in some areas. Aparently you need to wash off the metal ready prep before paint. I took some 40 grit sandpaper wheels and worked out the bad spots, and this time I rinsed the metal ready off. To speed this up and avoid getting all over my arms I bought a detail spray gun for $40. Actually had to buy two guns, The first one broke on me after job was done. It worked out great using the spray to get into those hard to reach areas and it went on in thin coats, like they recommend.
The topcoat called Chassis coat was really thick and was not spraying very well I had to use laquer thinner and thin it down some for it to work. The whole process was done in a day, there is alot of prep and you really have to read the directions a few times...both on the bottles, cans, and the paper instructions. Overall I am happy it is done now, and happy I went the spray gun route. It looks good with the body lift to actually see a nice paint job and not the rust. I even did the wheel wells and where the underbody meet the body mounts.
I'm also trying out some of POR-15's detailing products...like Boss Gloss for the interior, Por Glo for the exterior rubber and viynl like my faded flares!!, Artisan Metal Polish for my aluminum rims, and some solid carnuba wax. They engineer more solids into these products that they claim makes them last longer but we'll see.
It is easy to get information overload when researching rust prevention! For the inside of my frame I am not using POR-15 as it may fail and you'll never know and you really cannot prep the metal properly. I will be investing in a undercoating gun http://oemproamtools.com/undercoat.htm that has flexible wands that spray a 360 pattern. I will be buying a product called Fluidfilm in bulk....http://www.fluid-film.com/ and spraying the inside of my frame with that. Also plan on doing the engine compartment and entire undercarriage. It works on electrical connectinons too. It also works as a wax and can bring back faded paint jobs i've read...we'll see. This is going to be an ongoing process with reaplication before and after every winter.
Now all I have to do is install the nutserts, transfer case shifter bracket, high clearance tranny skid plate and save up for a lift kit , SYE and CV driveshaft. I'm in too deep now...had my first argument with my girlfriend about working on my jeep when we should be spending time together :eek: I might get this up and running by the middle of summer. :weee: