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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: neale_rs on May 19, 2010, 04:16:11 PM
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I've read conflicting information: that it is hard to turn with a front locker, that it's really not so bad, etc. So, assuming off-road use only, 4 Low engaged, and no street use: What would allow easier steering off road, a front Detroit Locker or a front spool (or locked ARB for instance)?
Thanks
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A Detroit will give you a tighter turning radius than the Spool or ARB (when engaged).
While in 4WD the front will want to push (try and stay going in a straight line even though the wheels are turned) but it's not bad. I don't think it's that noticeable. I am talking about the steering wheel wanting to return to center while in a turn.
The Detroit is the only one I would want to run in the front. Cheaper than the ARB, less to go wrong,no wiring, no spare parts to carry.
A spool would be a better choice for the rear, but I would still want the Detroit.
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In the front, a Spool, ARB or even a LSD will under-steer when in 4WD. A Detroit will also, if it's under power. If you left off the Detroit will unlock and become more neutral.
In the rear, everything is opposite. A Spool or ARB will want to over-steer and the Detroit will also, until it unlocks.
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It sounds like a front Detroit is the way to go. The ultimate setup would probably be a differential that could be selected between open and automatic locking.
Thanks
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It sounds like a front Detroit is the way to go. The ultimate setup would probably be a differential that could be selected between open and automatic locking.
Thanks
A Detroit is very predictable once you get used to it. You can keep it locked up or release it with more or less throttle.
If I redo my axles, I'll probably either go Detroit/ARB or maybe ARB/ARB.
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The ARB is a great choice for the rear axle, best of both worlds on and off road as far as handling in concerned.
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The ARB is a great choice for the rear axle, best of both worlds on and off road as far as handling in concerned.
The thing I don't like about the Detroit is the 'one-legged pirate' dance it does when you're making a sharp turn from a stop. The outer wheel is un-powered and the inner is touchy so you'll usually get wheel hop if you have to be quick.
Being able to induce a bit of over-steer is always fun though.
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I am sold on ARB's, they take a lot of abuse, work well and are pretty darn reliable.
It is what is going to go in my hammers Jeep. I do not care for the detroits one bit, drove several jeeps with Detroits in them and do not care for their manners. Why learn to live with something when there are better lockers available
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I run spools in both ends, have for years. Ran lincoln lockers in both ends for years before the spools. Traction is crazy good, they're KISS reliable, and they've very predictable onroad and off. Mine is also a daily driver, but it's not for everybody.
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Anyone have experience with OX lockers?
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As far as making it harder to turn with a front locker it depends on what your doing at the moment. For the most part IMO you don't really know it's there while in 4WD. (in 2WD it's invisible) If you have the steering bound up on something and are trying to turn the wheel then ya it's hard to turn the wheel. Sometimes turning off the locker if you can helps, sometimes it don't. It does put a bit more stress on your steering gear. Luckily I have not had any problems with fluids becoming to hot. A steering cooler is a good idea with a front locker. Also your front shafts and U joints are stressed a lot more. Upgraded shafts are a real good idea!
I like my set up a lot! I know people that have ARB's and love there set up. I don't run with anyone who runs a spool or Lincoln locker. I think given a choice most go with either ARB or Detroit or a mix of both. Detroit front ARB rear would be a real nice setup! I have thought about upgrading to 35 spline rear shafts and the only choice for a locker is ARB. I could do the 33 spline and stay with Detroit too,but the extra beef is always nice.
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It's probably kind of like with my rear ARB. If I ran the same section of trail with it off and then with it on, I might notice some difference. But with it on all the time I don't know if the steering would have been any different with it off. Personally I don't notice any difference in steering with it locked in the rear. Well, just the sliding downhill on off camber sections when too much gas is applied.
I found a kit that includes 4340 30 spline front shafts and an ARB that is looking pretty good!
Is the Detroit Locker available for 30 spline shafts for the D30? Are the 30 spline shafts really needed? They seem to cost the same as the 27 spline...
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It's probably kind of like with my rear ARB. If I ran the same section of trail with it off and then with it on, I might notice some difference. But with it on all the time I don't know if the steering would have been any different with it off. Personally I don't notice any difference in steering with it locked in the rear. Well, just the sliding downhill on off camber sections when too much gas is applied.
I found a kit that includes 4340 30 spline front shafts and an ARB that is looking pretty good!
Is the Detroit Locker available for 30 spline shafts for the D30? Are the 30 spline shafts really needed? They seem to cost the same as the 27 spline...
30 spline shafts are as thick as the D44 shafts and if they're cromoly that would make them quite strong.
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Nothing beats ARB in my opinion....when out on the trail, I can make the climb, switch the front off and still make the sharp turn on the trail. Everyone else is doing 10 point turns.... :clap:
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One thing you need to consider is if you still run the original axle or not; from your sig, you have a YJ, which means you have a servo disconnect, which means, a spool will be sort-of like a selectable locker on the front. If you unlock the front axle, the spool will actually be an open diff... Just food for thought.
Now, I have a YJ (I got alloy axles, so no servo for me) and run ARB, and I am as happy as a tornado in a trailer park with it! Would not trade it for anything, but then again, it is also the omst expensive locker out there...
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Sounds like the front ARB has a lot of support. It wouldn't be much more expensive for me since I already have the compressor.
Thanks a lot for all the comments and ideas.
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Sounds like the front ARB has a lot of support. It wouldn't be much more expensive for me since I already have the compressor.
Thanks a lot for all the comments and ideas.
The ARB is about as old as the Detroit. It's pretty bulletproof.
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Especially the later version of the arb is a very strong unit. Nothing wrong with an ox locker either. I just like the easy on and off of the arb, I run open till I need a bit extra traction flip the switches and move on till I am past the obstacle flip them off and cruise on
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Especially the later version of the arb is a very strong unit. Nothing wrong with an ox locker either. I just like the easy on and off of the arb, I run open till I need a bit extra traction flip the switches and move on till I am past the obstacle flip them off and cruise on
X2 on the use of ARB's and opinion on the Ox...
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It's probably kind of like with my rear ARB. If I ran the same section of trail with it off and then with it on, I might notice some difference. But with it on all the time I don't know if the steering would have been any different with it off. Personally I don't notice any difference in steering with it locked in the rear. Well, just the sliding downhill on off camber sections when too much gas is applied.
I found a kit that includes 4340 30 spline front shafts and an ARB that is looking pretty good!
Is the Detroit Locker available for 30 spline shafts for the D30? Are the 30 spline shafts really needed? They seem to cost the same as the 27 spline...
From the tiny bit of searching I did it seems the 30 spline D30 locker choice is the ARB. I did not see any Detroits in 30 spline.
The 30 spline would be nice. Keep in mind it's only the inners that are 30 spline. The stubs are still 27 spline.
Also upgrade the U joints. The Spicer stuff is nice but a premium joint is going to take a lot more abuse that the Spicer. Also look at the RCV shafts. That would be a nice set up. They have the super 30 spline and reg. 27 spline. Same price for each kit. Then you don't have to worry about breaking a U joint :lol:
https://www.rcvperformance.com/store/catalog/index.php?cPath=59&osCsid=f1ecbf9082e48e846ad32abca27351bd
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That would be a nice set of axles. I had seen those before in a magazine but didn't recall who sold them. Thanks
Looking around, I found a kit to make the outers 30 spline as well
http://www.4wd.com/productdetails.aspx?jeep-sid=353&plID=95&partID=56109
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That's a whole lot of money to make a D30 into a D44 though. $500 for just the stubs and bearings? Then $985.00 for those shafts and you still haven't bought a ARB for it. Punch out while you still can and go with a Dana 44 or Dana 60.
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That would be a nice set of axles. I had seen those before in a magazine but didn't recall who sold them. Thanks
Looking around, I found a kit to make the outers 30 spline as well
http://www.4wd.com/productdetails.aspx?jeep-sid=353&plID=95&partID=56109
Not sure it's worth that kind of money to upgrade. Given the choice I would do the RCV's. It's the U joints that will fail a large % of the time. When that happens it can mess up the yokes on a shaft or both shafts. If you look at buying a set of premium joints you are adding another $300-500 to a set of upgraded shafts. Seems to me the RCV shafts would give you the most bang for the buck.
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I agree, the $985 axles are actually a good deal, they cost about the same as a set of $600 u-joint shafts plus say some Yukon Super Joints for about $370. Or compare it with $600 shafts and around $500 for some CTM u-joints. Plus they have a great warranty. I wouldn't buy the 30 spline stub shaft kit, not worth it for what I do.
A Dana 44 would be nice but it is more money, having to buy it, regear it, set up the steering, upgrade at least the u-joints, etc.
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The 27 spline superior front shaft have survived a shit load of abuse so far. so truth be told for most any wheeling with 33's or 35's they would be just fine, unless you stick a v8 in front of it, then it's dana 60 or spidertrax time
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That's a whole lot of money to make a D30 into a D44 though. $500 for just the stubs and bearings? Then $985.00 for those shafts and you still haven't bought a ARB for it. Punch out while you still can and go with a Dana 44 or Dana 60.
i bought 30 spline cromoly shafts for D30 by Alloy USA for $300 (brand new off ebay) + a 30 spline Eaton E-locker for $600 (and i think the shipping was another $50 or so) - the new Eaton e-locker works just like the ARB or OX but using a solenoid instead.
true that the outer stubs are still small but i don't think i've seen any reports on those braking, might be b/c it is tightened with the nut so the shear forces or the twisting forces are reduces on that portion of the stub - i would guess it will fail at the u-joint before braking in the hub.
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I've read conflicting information: that it is hard to turn with a front locker, that it's really not so bad, etc. So, assuming off-road use only, 4 Low engaged, and no street use: What would allow easier steering off road, a front Detroit Locker or a front spool (or locked ARB for instance)?
Thanks
4-Low with an Aussie in D30 and it'll fight you a little bit when you're turning on loose surfaces. But I wouldn't call it hard to turn. It's also quiet in 2wd/4wd.
I recall a JP magazine editor seeming to favor a setup with an autolocker in the front(Detroit) and driver-controlled locker in the rear (ARB, Ox).
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The 27 spline superior front shaft have survived a My Little Pony load of abuse so far. so truth be told for most any wheeling with 33's or 35's they would be just fine, unless you stick a v8 in front of it, then it's dana 60 or spidertrax time
Mine held up just fine with Warn shafts and some H20 proof joints from J.E. Reel. I would agree that you don't need to go to a bigger axle D44 etc unless you need lower gears than 4.88's. A D30 with good shafts and joints will last a very long time.
Not sure on the 30 spline VS 27 spline. If your replacing both the shafts and carrier then why not. Seems as if the price is the same either way. If you already have a locker or any other upgrades then I don't see it being worth the money.
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I agree, the $985 axles are actually a good deal, they cost about the same as a set of $600 u-joint shafts plus say some Yukon Super Joints for about $370. Or compare it with $600 shafts and around $500 for some CTM u-joints. Plus they have a great warranty. I wouldn't buy the 30 spline stub shaft kit, not worth it for what I do.
A Dana 44 would be nice but it is more money, having to buy it, regear it, set up the steering, upgrade at least the u-joints, etc.
If you're going to be putting an ARB in there then all your doing is paying for the price of the gears as labor would be one fee. For the steering you can use the regular inverted L steering. No additional cost. U-joints are already going to be 297x that can be upgraded to 5-760X.
What I'm saying is $1500 would go pretty far on a D44 you salvage yourself. Then you'd have the ability to do hi-steer as well as have lower gears. You can buy a set of SJ 44's for $1500 and it comes with a truck. Same goes for a '78/'79 Ford F250 or F350. Then sell off the stuff you don't want.
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The idea of buying a whole vehicle with matching axles and then part it out might come out pretty cheap overall. I know a guy who did this to get a full width Ford HPD44 front and a 9" rear under his TJ.
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The 27 spline superior front shaft have survived a bo-yah! load of abuse so far. so truth be told for most any wheeling with 33's or 35's they would be just fine, unless you stick a v8 in front of it, then it's dana 60 or spidertrax time
What u-joints are you using?
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A Detroit or ARB, with or without chromo shafts, is way too much $$ to be investing in a d30 axle. The YJ is super simple to put axles in, why not upgrade the front to a Waggy d44? Then you have the benefits of a larger ring and pinion, lower gearing options, cheaper highsteer, stronger and serviceable bearings, locking hubs, larger brakes, etc.
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I'll tell you, after regearing, changing to alloys, and installing ARB's, I regret not swaping in a Waggy D44 front and Isuzu/Honda D44 rear... I would have gotten rear disc brakes, stronger axles, deeper gears and for about the same (there would have been no need to upgrade to alloys). Now I'm stuck on 4.88 wishing I had 5.13 gears... And may need to spend more dough on a rear disc conversion to improve my brakes.
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A Detroit or ARB, with or without chromo shafts, is way too much $$ to be investing in a d30 axle. The YJ is super simple to put axles in, why not upgrade the front to a Waggy d44? Then you have the benefits of a larger ring and pinion, lower gearing options, cheaper highsteer, stronger and serviceable bearings, locking hubs, larger brakes, etc.
I would consider a narrowed Ford HP D44 but not the Waggy front axle. I know it is a good axle and know people who run it but I'm not willing to give up any ground clearance under the pinion (my tires are 33" and I'm not planning to go any taller).
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I'll tell you, after regearing, changing to alloys, and installing ARB's, I regret not swaping in a Waggy D44 front and Isuzu/Honda D44 rear... I would have gotten rear disc brakes, stronger axles, deeper gears and for about the same (there would have been no need to upgrade to alloys). Now I'm stuck on 4.88 wishing I had 5.13 gears... And may need to spend more dough on a rear disc conversion to improve my brakes.
Those are nice axles but I really don't feel the need for the use I would give them.
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Those are nice axles but I really don't feel the need for the use I would give them.
You do bring up a good point; suggestions on how to improve your rig have to take into account how you plan to USE your rig...
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Those are nice axles but I really don't feel the need for the use I would give them.
I would look for simplicity and the availability of parts as well. Being able to order stock shafts from just about anyone verses specialized shafts from one or two mfg's. Even if you're not planning on needing them, having extra strength is better then having just enough. You might change your mind and be locked into the stock axles.
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Ok, it looks like I could buy alloy shafts and a locker in the D30 for $1550 including labor without looking around too much.
Given I don't have any space to put an extra vehicle, I would need to buy just a front axle (Ford HP Dana 44). Cost estimate:
Axle $500 maybe
Gears and install kit $300
Gear setup $150
Rear axle shafts for bolt pattern $100 (maybe)
Rear drum redrilling $
Wheels to match bolt pattern $
Narrowing $
Front shafts due to narrowing $150 (maybe)
Brake repairs may be needed $
Locker $850
Very nice setup but it is more expensive.
Based on comments here the upgraded D30 should do fine, cost less, and take less time and effort to get it done.
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Except for thicker axle tubes and being able to run 5.38 gears there isn't much of an advantage in running a dana 44. the axle shafts are only marginally stronger than a dana 30 hp, still uses the same size u joint so no gain there. If you do not need a gear ratio over 4.88 or go bigger than 35" tires a hp 30 is the best bang for the buck
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If your sure your not going to go bigger than a 35 and your happy with the gearing. Then pimp out your D30 and have a great time! :doggy: It's a pretty tough axle given it's size.
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Ok, it looks like I could buy alloy shafts and a locker in the D30 for $1550 including labor without looking around too much.
Given I don't have any space to put an extra vehicle, I would need to buy just a front axle (Ford HP Dana 44). Cost estimate:
Axle $500 maybe
Gears and install kit $300
Gear setup $150
Rear axle shafts for bolt pattern $100 (maybe)
Rear drum redrilling $
Wheels to match bolt pattern $
Narrowing $
Front shafts due to narrowing $150 (maybe)
Brake repairs may be needed $
Locker $850
Very nice setup but it is more expensive.
Based on comments here the upgraded D30 should do fine, cost less, and take less time and effort to get it done.
Most of that stuff disappears if you swap BOTH axles at the same time. If you do your homework, you won't have to narrow anything. No need to redrill either. You will need new wheels and you can also SELL your old axles and wheels. Like I said you can sometimes buy a whole truck for under $2000 then sell off everything you won't need. You can probably even make money.
If we were comparing staying stock and maybe using some alloy axles to going D44, I might say, it's not worth it but if you're going to be spending $1000 on axle shafts alone, I say it's not worth it. Then you're spending $550 on stub shafts. You're still dealing with the stock housing and the stock gears. Then you're spending "Locker $850" to add an ARB in there. The cost of the ARB is moot since you would be putting it in either. And like I said before, labor would cover the gear install if you went with a 44 or larger. BTW: you would also get actual disconnect hubs which would also be a plus. Not to mention the larger bolt pattern. And since we're talking HP D44, there is a strength increase in the gears as well.
The whole D30 argument is the same one we have with the D35...
When you're budget starts getting over $1000, I say it's time to consider upsizing.
If you're not breaking things now with the stock axle then throw in an ARB and carry some spare shafts...
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The whole D30 argument is the same one we have with the D35...
The D30 is way more reliable than the D35. I have seen it live with 33-37's with little or no problems. I wouldn't recommend going larger than 35's. I 've seen the D35 fail with stockish size tires and no wheeling
When you're budget starts getting over $1000, I say it's time to consider upsizing.
It's hard to stay under 1K once you add a good locker and some good shafts. Lots of times good used stuff comes up at a good price.
If you're not breaking things now with the stock axle then throw in an ARB and carry some spare shafts...
That is some good advice. Stay with the 27 spline and if you start having problems you can upgrade. I would still carry spares depending on what style of wheeling your doing.
If I didn't need deeper gearing I think I would have stayed with the D30. Or until it started giving me problems regularly.
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The D30 is way more reliable than the D35. I have seen it live with 33-37's with little or no problems. I wouldn't recommend going larger than 35's. I 've seen the D35 fail with stockish size tires and no wheeling
That's only because it's up front. On the other hand, I've seen D35's with 35-37's (& lockers) that have survived mild wheeling. D35's are a bit hit&miss. Still, I wouldn't want to go through the hassle of spending all that money and having something else break. Keep in mind that the YJ D30 has that cast coupler on the long side as well. I would say if you're going to keep a D30 then you would want an XJ hi-pinion.
It's hard to stay under 1K once you add a good locker and some good shafts. Lots of times good used stuff comes up at a good price.
But then you get stronger shafts with a D44. Larger brakes, larger axle housing, larger R&P, real hubs, etc... Not to mention all of the other options like Hi-steer. So as a package, it would make sense if you're going to take advantage of it. Even if you don't, it's nice to be overbuilt and not have to worry.
That is some good advice. Stay with the 27 spline and if you start having problems you can upgrade. I would still carry spares depending on what style of wheeling your doing.
If I didn't need deeper gearing I think I would have stayed with the D30. Or until it started giving me problems regularly.
I've done gears and have a TrueTrac in mine. I got the TT for cheap and the gears were cheap as well. I think I have less then $300 in my D30. Selling it, I could probably make $300-400 with the right buyer. I traded my D35 away. Actually, I pretty much gave it away and it had 4:56's. I traded it for a AX-5, Bell housing and NV231 then I traded that for a radiator and soft top, which I needed more. I could probably have got around $3-400 for that as well. I have less then $2000 in my D44 which for the most part is all new. That includes axle shafts, drums, brakes pads, locker and gears. If I was t do it over again, I'd consider buying a SJ or '78/'79 F250-F350 then build up the axles piecemeal as I wheel on the stock axles.
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Except for thicker axle tubes and being able to run 5.38 gears there isn't much of an advantage in running a dana 44. the axle shafts are only marginally stronger than a dana 30 hp, still uses the same size u joint so no gain there.
Not to mention a stronger ring and pinion when running low gears, more affordable locker options, locking hubs, stronger and serviceable wheel bearings, more affordable high steer options, larger brakes.
The d30's unit bearings just don't last with oversize tires and wheeling. Around here, a pair of d44's would go for about $300 at a pick n pull. Then add lockers and gears that you would be putting in stock axles anyway, so the cost difference is insignificant.
The low-pinion of the Waggy d44 front isn't too bad, it's only marginally lower than the HP44. I've got a HP44 from a Ford that I'm going to narrow to Waggy width so stock waggy shafts will slide right in. I will end up with a stong 3/4t axle housing, high pinion, without having to use a full-width housing. Strongly considering rebuilding the rear 'Zu d44 with a HP center chunk as well :hump:
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I won't argue that a D30 is better than a D44. It's a great axle with many advantages over the D30. But for someone who wants to stay with 33's or so the D30 would work fine with good shafts and a locker. Or a locker and spare shafts. A large % of people would not go to the trouble or don't know how to do a D44 swap just to run a 33 inch tire.
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Quite a variety of opinions on this. I going to bet on my 33" tires to help keep it pretty reliable without putting in a front D44. If it doesn't turn out then it's plan B.
Thanks for all the ideas.
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Quite a variety of opinions on this. I going to bet on my 33" tires to help keep it pretty reliable without putting in a front D44. If it doesn't turn out then it's plan B.
Thanks for all the ideas.
It really depend on how you drive it. If you don't need much wheel speed (mud/sand/etc...), then you can probably just go with the stock axle. More stress is put on the rear then the front since the weight is all behind the front axle which is why D30's hold up well.
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More stress is put on the rear then the front since the weight is all behind the front axle which is why D30's hold up well.
I am thinking of saving up to do 35 spline rears with a ARB. I am paranoid about snapping a rear shaft. With 37's and 208:1 I am afraid of getting bound up on something and popping a shaft.
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I am thinking of saving up to do 35 spline rears with a ARB. I am paranoid about snapping a rear shaft. With 37's and 208:1 I am afraid of getting bound up on something and popping a shaft.
That's what this Jeep runs. It's Jason Bunch's 2.5L.
(http://image.4wheeloffroad.com/f/8852055+w750+st0/131_0406_spl_04_z.jpg)
(http://image.4wheeloffroad.com/f/8852154/131_0406_spl_12_z.jpg)
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That 35 spline axle has a severe neckdown. It even looks smaller in diameter than the axle on the left.
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Jason was real big in getting the "super" 30 and 44 going. More than likely I'll see them this weekend at HDR. I always like to bend there ears on this kind of stuff.
I do agree that the neckdown does not look very good. I think it has something to do with the stress risers coming off the splined section.
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That 35 spline axle has a severe neckdown. It even looks smaller in diameter than the axle on the left.
I agree that it don't look right but according to this it's the proper way a shaft should be made. Look for a PIC about half way down this page. Lots of good info here.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-BV60/index1b.html
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That 35 spline axle has a severe neckdown. It even looks smaller in diameter than the axle on the left.
yeah, dunno what's up with that - i put that pic in Solidworks and measured the shafts (numbers have no relevance, just for comparison sake) and the neckdown on the 35 spline turned out to be 2.34% thicker than the other one
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/35_Spline_vs30.jpg)
EDIT:
I agree that it don't look right but according to this it's the proper way a shaft should be made. Look for a PIC about half way down this page. Lots of good info here.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-BV60/index1b.html
I guess that's the reason, didn't read that whole thread, makes sense, i do think that if the splines are rolled rather than cut you can skip the neckdown or make it less severe (just relief the end of the splines).
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Very good info on that page. So there's an advanced feature on that shaft, learn something new every day.