4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: TrailsLessTaken on July 08, 2010, 01:42:22 PM
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http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6667601/editorials/easy-jeep-diesel-swap/index.html (http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6667601/editorials/easy-jeep-diesel-swap/index.html)
HPA Motorsports has long been involved in the tuner industry but recently decided to take a stab at the Jeep engine swap market with it's VW diesel swap kit. The kit allows the installation of a somewhat-common '01-'06 VW Beetle-sourced 1.9L TDI diesel engine in front of the stock Jeep four-cylinder AX-5 manual transmission (other common Jeep tranny options coming soon).
In stock form the VW TDI engine pumps out 100 horsepower and 180 lb-ft of torque, but is said to be easily cranked up to an impressive 165 horsepower and 280 lb-ft of torque with a simple power flash (The factory Jeep 2.5L puts out 123hp and 145 lb-ft). The 1.9L TDI weighs in at a svelte 265 pounds compared to the Jeep 2.5L at 325 pounds. It's 55 pounds lighter than the four cylinder! In the Jetta the 1.9L gets up to 47mpg, in a Jeep it will likely get slightly fewer mpgs because of the Jeeps added weight and increased wind resistance but it should easily hit the 30-40 mpg range with normal use.
VW engineers confirmed that the 1.9L oiling system was designed to handle a 1G environment allowing for 45-degree angles in all directions. An optional deep oil pan may be made available for even more extreme use.
The TDI fits in the Jeep with no fender, firewall, or tub modifications. The Jeep radiator is replaced with a VW radiator and fan, retaining all of the VW fan controls which are integrated into the factory VW electronics. The Jeep tranny remains in the factory location eliminating the need for any driveline modifications. The Jeep tranny, flywheel, and clutch are retained. They are adapted to the VW TDI bellhousing and engine. The kit will include engine mounts, a flywheel adapter, a transmission adapter, and an exhaust downpipe. Electrical and complete engine packages will also be available. Keep an eye out in Jp Magazine for the full swap. For more info go to HPA Motorsports.
(http://image.jpmagazine.com/f/editorials/easy-jeep-diesel-swap/29752903/vw-19l-tdi-diesel-engine-swap.jpg)
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the 47mpg is for that motor in a Jetta, will be a different story in a Jeep
but it's a cool swap, wish these engines were as available as the 2.5L Jeep ones.
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I just saw this on jp about 5 mins ago it's a cool swap!! and lighter!! I can't get over it's lighter then the 4banger. more power and less weight and already turbo and could be bumped up!!
would be nice for sure just having the torque for highway use
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I have mentioned the VW TDi's in the swap thread but no one cared. Not sure why you'd want to keep the AX-5 unless you didn't want to swap it.
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alas...it wouldnt really be a jeep anymore.....
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I have mentioned the VW TDi's in the swap thread but no one cared. Not sure why you'd want to keep the AX-5 unless you didn't want to swap it.
sorry I missed your post jeffy. I like the idea of a light diesel. I know the ax-15 is suppose to be a lighter trans but I haven't had issues with it other then water damage. I would more just like it for the highway torque more then anything. and the eng is lighter!!
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for me the derision to swap would depend on the cost of this kit and engine.
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I checked their website, they didnt have anything listed yet. This would def be something I will probably do
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Well, this would be very interesting to do, especially around here where all gas stations carry diesel fuel (unlike the US). I would think keeping the AX5 makes it cheaper, so it's more attractive. But I dont know how well it would cope with twice the torque on the VW engine (assuming it is swooped up).
Unless it's crazy expensive, i would certainly jump on this engine...
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Well, this would be very interesting to do, especially around here where all gas stations carry diesel fuel (unlike the US). I would think keeping the AX5 makes it cheaper, so it's more attractive. But I dont know how well it would cope with twice the torque on the VW engine (assuming it is swooped up).
Unless it's crazy expensive, i would certainly jump on this engine...
I suspect the VW uses the GM 60* bellhousing bolt pattern. If that's the case then you would need to do the Dakota bell housing swap to use an AX-15 or NV3550. Too bad you can't use a NSG-370. I think that would be prefect. The other option would be a NV4500.
I think a 1.9L would be a good choice BUT having to get it passed CA SMOG would add some additional hoops to jump through. It would really limit your choices down to 2001-2002. Then again, you can't find newer 1.9L VW's in CA.
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I suspect the VW uses the GM 60* bellhousing bolt pattern. If that's the case then you would need to do the Dakota bell housing swap to use an AX-15 or NV3550. Too bad you can't use a NSG-370. I think that would be prefect. The other option would be a NV4500.
I think a 1.9L would be a good choice BUT having to get it passed CA SMOG would add some additional hoops to jump through. It would really limit your choices down to 2001-2002. Then again, you can't find newer 1.9L VW's in CA.
an even better option would be the Audi 2.4L TDI (or 2.5L, can't remember what it was). Some VWs also had the same motor in them but can't remember which ones.
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Emailed the company today to get some more info, not to much more than what the release said:
Bob,
Thank you for your email. We will have the kit packages ready for early
September once we have had the month of August to shake down the rig and
proof the BOM's.
We will offer a do it your self package and one with the complete engine
included and also onsite installations.
I don't yet have all the costs before me, but the mounts, and gearbox
adaptor and exhaust/after cooler package is aimed at being an affordable
solution.
The engine is so quiet and such a natural fit for this Jeep it is amazing.
The PD diesel of Volkswagen is so easy to flash tune, it should offer the
Jeep enthusiast a solid long range back country option.
We will update our homepage with these details and the entire build process
will be covered by JP in the next weeks.
Marcel Horn
President
HPA Motorsports Inc.
604-598-8520 x 106
www.hpamotorsports.com
www.vadpro.com
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an even better option would be the Audi 2.4L TDI (or 2.5L, can't remember what it was). Some VWs also had the same motor in them but can't remember which ones.
Honestly, I like the 1.9L. It's proven to be dependable and has some good numbers while still being lighter then the 2.5L is replaces. Being able to fit in a YJ is a plus.
I don't think Audi ever offered a TDI in the US which would be a problem.
Maybe I'll contact them and see what would be possible in California.
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Here is a pic he just sent me with the drivetrain pulled out and bolted together to give you a better idea of how they have it going together and size
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6roifxYIFVU/TDedr2X3yqI/AAAAAAAACI4/nNPyBLIK3lw/s800/3.jpg)
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Here is a pic he just sent me with the drivetrain pulled out and bolted together to give you a better idea of how they have it going together and size
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6roifxYIFVU/TDedr2X3yqI/AAAAAAAACI4/nNPyBLIK3lw/s800/3.jpg)
looks like there's a thick adapter between the block and bellhousing
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looks like there's a thick adapter between the block and bellhousing
Yup. But that's not really a problem with the tiny engine. Look at the location of the engine mount. It's way forward compared to the 2.5L.
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Yup. But that's not really a problem with the tiny engine. Look at the location of the engine mount. It's way forward compared to the 2.5L.
yeah, i wasn't worried about that spacer - was just saying that as you mentioned that it could be the GM bolt pattern on the block
i wonder if any of the engines installed in the Opel would work, they would be more likely have the GM bolt pattern, that might be a direct bolt-on with probably just a different clutch disk.
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yeah, i wasn't worried about that spacer - was just saying that as you mentioned that it could be the GM bolt pattern on the block
i wonder if any of the engines installed in the Opel would work, they would be more likely have the GM bolt pattern, that might be a direct bolt-on with probably just a different clutch disk.
I think there are huge advantages to using a COMMON engine. :lol:
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I think there are huge advantages to using a COMMON engine. :lol:
ya! I was thinking the same it's a great idea for fuel econ but I don't know if it will weigh out the costs of swap and if it breaks down what the costs.
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ya! I was thinking the same it's a great idea for fuel econ but I don't know if it will weigh out the costs of swap and if it breaks down what the costs.
Yet another advantage we have doen here... The VW engine is more common than the Jeep one!
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Yet another advantage we have doen here... The VW engine is more common than the Jeep one!
Actually, the VW Diesel engines are fairly common. They aren't in huge numbers but I do see them. Parts are readily available as well. For us in the US, I think this is probably one of the few legal diesel swaps worth doing. Keeping the transmission would keep cost down especially since it keeps the drivetrain where it is, so there is no need to get new drive shafts. Not to mention, I can get bio-diesel easily.
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Actually, the VW Diesel engines are fairly common. They aren't in huge numbers but I do see them. Parts are readily available as well. For us in the US, I think this is probably one of the few legal diesel swaps worth doing. Keeping the transmission would keep cost down especially since it keeps the drivetrain where it is, so there is no need to get new drive shafts. Not to mention, I can get bio-diesel easily.
is bio-diesel chaper? or just for environment sake?
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is bio-diesel chaper? or just for environment sake?
Unlike gas and regular diesel, bio-diesel hasn't been taxed yet so it's about $1 cheaper per gallon.
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Unlike gas and regular diesel, bio-diesel hasn't been taxed yet so it's about $1 cheaper per gallon.
Give it time, and that will most likely change...
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Give it time, and that will most likely change...
Kind of hard to enforce it. What are they going to do follow you home from Costco and sit around till you use your 5gallons of olive oil? They wouldn't be able to even enforce waste oil.
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overseas JKs have a 2.8l diesel. who makes that diesel and i wonder if you can get one here...
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overseas JKs have a 2.8l diesel. who makes that diesel and i wonder if you can get one here...
Around here, there are also Jeep diesels, as well as Toyota, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Nissan, and just about every manufacturer (including Ford). The thing is that you want an efficient diesel, because they are not all the same. The reason I like the BMW is that it is LIGHT, so if you reduce weight, and increase power, the Jeep would all of the sudden become a very nice toy to have around. Also, keep in mind Diesel engines have more low-end torque, which is also better than the 2.5L.
If I were to go to another manufacturer, I would stay away from the Jeep engine and just drop one from Toyota (probably the one found in their HiLux pickups and Fortuner SUV's, which is a 3.0L Turbo Diesel) along with the rest of the drive train (TC and tranny). But that means new DS and a whole lot of other mods which you would not have with the 1.9L VW engine.
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overseas JKs have a 2.8l diesel. who makes that diesel and i wonder if you can get one here...
It's made by an Italian company called VM Motori.
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It's made by an Italian company called VM Motori.
VM Motori is owned by another company though. Detroit Diesel bought them in 1995 and in 2000 DaimlerChrysler AG bought them. Chrysler still owns 49% of the company. Penske Corporation bought the other 51% then bought Chrysler's 49% and sold it to GM. Basically, VM Motori is the joint venture division.
Problem with the 2.8L is that its even rarer then the VW. They only made them for 3 years and they weren't ever popular. They also never got good gas mileage and parts are scarce. The 2.8L was used in the KJ Liberty then it was discontinued. It also was not that dependable. EGR's were one of the problems the engine had and those were $200 to fix.
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VM Motori is owned by another company though. Detroit Diesel bought them in 1995 and in 2000 DaimlerChrysler AG bought them. Chrysler still owns 49% of the company. Penske Corporation bought the other 51% then bought Chrysler's 49% and sold it to GM. Basically, VM Motori is the joint venture division.
Problem with the 2.8L is that its even rarer then the VW. They only made them for 3 years and they weren't ever popular. They also never got good gas mileage and parts are scarce. The 2.8L was used in the KJ Liberty then it was discontinued. It also was not that dependable. EGR's were one of the problems the engine had and those were $200 to fix.
wow jeffy you always amaze me on how much you know on who owns what and were and how lol egrs are easy to fix with a block of plate lol
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Yet another advantage we have doen here... The VW engine is more common than the Jeep one!
ya but I already have a jeep engine in my jeep and parts for it are cheep and you can swap to aftermarket stuff very easily to cut costs. the vw on the other hand if a fuel pump or anything that ends up being a vw part only and costs over 300$ range would kill.
plus whats this engine going to cost even if you say there more common I don't have one in my shed. and whats this kit going to cost to make it all work.
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wow jeffy you always amaze me on how much you know on who owns what and were and how lol egrs are easy to fix with a block of plate lol
EGR on a OBDII engine isn't so easy. You need to tune the PCM to run without it and disable the CEL.
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ya but I already have a jeep engine in my jeep and parts for it are cheep and you can swap to aftermarket stuff very easily to cut costs. the vw on the other hand if a fuel pump or anything that ends up being a vw part only and costs over 300$ range would kill.
plus whats this engine going to cost even if you say there more common I don't have one in my shed. and whats this kit going to cost to make it all work.
Fuel pump is your OEM one or if you want, any aftermarket one, I suspect. Diesels by their very nature are pretty robust. Simple things like alternators and stuff can be had easily. There are a lot more VW's on the roads then Jeep.
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Fuel pump is your OEM one or if you want, any aftermarket one, I suspect. Diesels by their very nature are pretty robust. Simple things like alternators and stuff can be had easily. There are a lot more VW's on the roads then Jeep.
Especially south of the border, like in Costa Rica and Panama. Jeeps are REALLY scarce here (most of them are fixed up and wheeled, so parts are really a "luxury" item in that the few people that do bring stuff, ussually charge quite a bit - Hence the reason I built mine in the US and then shipped the whole thing to Panama). The smaller VW engines are on everything, including Taxi cabs, which makes parts available all over the place. Keep in mind Diesel is an EXTREMELY comon fuel, and it is taxed about half as much as gas, so price of diesel is cheaper and you get better mileage.
ya but I already have a jeep engine in my jeep and parts for it are cheep and you can swap to aftermarket stuff very easily to cut costs. the vw on the other hand if a fuel pump or anything that ends up being a vw part only and costs over 300$ range would kill.
plus whats this engine going to cost even if you say there more common I don't have one in my shed. and whats this kit going to cost to make it all work.
We are comparing to doing some other engine swap (or some heavy mods that will net the same power increase); of course, the cheapest alternative is just to do nothing to the Jeep, but we all just know that is, of course, not acceptable!
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there is a lot less vw's in my area especially diesels there is way more jeeps here. I could pic up a 6cld here with full drive line.
I don't mind my jeep anyway I'm running 64mm tb and header didn't cost me anything other then the header cause I had a friend do it at a local machine shop. power wouldn't be what i'm after it would be the mpgs but even then I don't know if it would be worth it for me is what i'm saying
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there is a lot less vw's in my area especially diesels there is way more jeeps here. I could pic up a 6cld here with full drive line.
I don't mind my jeep anyway I'm running 64mm tb and header didn't cost me anything other then the header cause I had a friend do it at a local machine shop. power wouldn't be what i'm after it would be the mpgs but even then I don't know if it would be worth it for me is what i'm saying
Well, a 4.0L won't give you much if any change in mileage and you're adding more weight. Still, it would be a pretty straight forward swap. With any swap though, you won't make up the cost over just driving what you have. You would be better off selling the Jeep and buying another with a larger engine in that case.
Looking at the other diesel options, the VW will have better parts availability nation and world wide. The other thing is the VW diesels don't really look any different then the regular version unless you look at the badge. They have been making them for a LONG time and the engine has evolved so it's for the most part reliable. The downside is that most VW mechanics don't know the diesels that well so you'll have to find a diesel mechanic, but that's pretty normal.
A VW diesel would give you better mileage but more importantly, it should double the range. Now if you're not going very far then that's moot too. Not ever gas station sells diesel so that can be a problem as well. Although that would only be a problem in the center of a big city. Go to the outskirts or areas with trucking routes and you'll easily find diesel. Another advantage I can think is that diesel doesn't vary from state to state or country to country like gas/petrol does. In some countries, petrol can be had to come buy as well. Although this is more of a problem for a Expedition vehicle and not some rockcrawler. I think having the option to run bio or even veg is nice also.
So, in short this isn't for everyone. :lol:
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A VW diesel would give you better mileage but more importantly, it should double the range. Now if you're not going very far then that's moot too. Not ever gas station sells diesel so that can be a problem as well. Although that would only be a problem in the center of a big city. Go to the outskirts or areas with trucking routes and you'll easily find diesel. Another advantage I can think is that diesel doesn't vary from state to state or country to country like gas/petrol does. In some countries, petrol can be had to come buy as well. Although this is more of a problem for a Expedition vehicle and not some rockcrawler. I think having the option to run bio or even veg is nice also.
So, in short this isn't for everyone. :lol:
Well, down here, Diesel is easier to find than gas, to be totally honest; all gas stations have diesels, and truck stations ONLY have diesel. So that, the range, and the fact that the Diesel runs better when submerged (no coil or plugs to worry about when fording a deep river) are defenetly a plus. Also, since diesels are so common, mos mechanics know how to work on them, which makes that a non-issue (any mechanic will know how to fix both gas and diesel angines).
But there are differences in Diesels; some have more Sulfur than others, and high-sulfur diesel fuel can be a problem (ussually the cheap Venezuelan Diesel fel has higher sulfur content).
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if cash was no prob I would be on board for sure but unless i source a engine fairly cheep I will stick with my 4banger. I wish I was in your area then jfrabat. if there every were but diesel vw & other brands here even used are $$$$$. because most people want them but the price different is to great to justify buying them unless you tow a a lot or highway drive a lot.
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aside from the obvious advantages in mpgs and POWER, the other great thing a diesel offers is robust durability. less moving parts and such, these engines last a hell of a lot longer then their gasoline counterparts. id like to go diesel in the long run. i had wanted a 4bt cumins figuring that it was still sort of jeep related given that the cumins gets placed in dodge/chrysler products. i dunno how id feel about goin to VW for a powerplant. it wouldnt really feel like a jeep to me anymore. by that im saying, id like to keep it within the jeep/chrysler world. that would be ideal to me. this same line of thinking is also why i would upgrade to dana 44 and not go the ford axle route... thats just me though. BUT ideals always change and i wouldnt be surprised if in a year or two im posting pics of my vw powered jeep lol.
by the way, we had discussed mpg gains in a 4bt cumins...online they claim near 40, but i doubt that. someone had figured it was prob around 25mpg...can we really expect 30+ with the VW?
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by the way, we had discussed mpg gains in a 4bt cumins...online they claim near 40, but i doubt that. someone had figured it was prob around 25mpg...can we really expect 30+ with the VW?
I doubt it will be over 30; I think 15 is realistic, 30 would be excellent, and 30+ is just dreaming. But who knows... My diesel (Toyota Fortuner) gives me about 25 mpg, but it is also 3.0L, not 1.9L (both are turbocharged, so no difference there).
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I doubt it will be over 30; I think 15 is realistic, 30 would be excellent, and 30+ is just dreaming. But who knows... My diesel (Toyota Fortuner) gives me about 25 mpg, but it is also 3.0L, not 1.9L (both are turbocharged, so no difference there).
15? The 1.9L TDI has over 100 more torques then the 2.5L and is lighter. I suspect 25-35mpg.
The 4BT gets about 25MPG.
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15? The 1.9L TDI has over 100 more torques then the 2.5L and is lighter. I suspect 25-35mpg.
The 4BT gets about 25MPG.
Typo; meant 25... And the reason I say 25 has to do more with aerodynamics than power or weight.
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There are a lot of dodge trucks documented at 22+ some of the best being the original trucks.
I would bet it would be really speed related, say at 50 to 55 You'd see 30 but at 75 or 80 you'd be back under 20...?
I know I got back 5 MPG dropping to a 8" wide tire from the 10 or 12 " wide ones,, so I could see aero playing a big role!
Dave
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There are a lot of dodge trucks documented at 22+ some of the best being the original trucks.
I would bet it would be really speed related, say at 50 to 55 You'd see 30 but at 75 or 80 you'd be back under 20...?
I know I got back 5 MPG dropping to a 8" wide tire from the 10 or 12 " wide ones,, so I could see aero playing a big role!
Dave
Aerodynamics come into play at speeds above 35MPH. Then it exponentially grows as you go faster.
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Aerodynamics come into play at speeds above 35MPH. Then it exponentially grows as you go faster.
Well, there you go... I only drive under 35 when I am getting out of the garage! :blbl:
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considering all the swaps,the 1.9vw swap sound like it might be cheaper than doing a 5.7 hemi swap.I just traded a junk 454 to a guy for a new 2.5 mopar crate engine.was planning to drop that in this winter but i am going to do a little more research on this first.to me a jeep is a jeep no mater whats powering it.just diesel would be a lot better option for me and what i do.
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There have been updates to the website. Looks like a good idea to me.
http://www.hpamotorsports.com/tdijeep.htm
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Not too bad: Complete Conversion : Introductory Offer: $15,999 USD
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They're putting out a Stage 3 sometime. Looks like that will be the way I go. Shipping my Jeep from North Carolina to them is something I just don't want to do. Besides, it'll be nice to say, "I did it." :dance:
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Supposedly they are using their own adapter plate. Or saying that no one has ever used this engine before as it's custom. I don't really know though. Sami's have some Toyota's have been doing VW swaps for years. The only real difference is that they're offering a complete kit. The main thing is the harness and PCM though. I don't think $15K is that much though. I know that's about what a 5.7L swap cost a few years ago in CA.