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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Sherpa on September 09, 2010, 10:45:55 PM
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Being my day off, I decided today was the time to do my electric fan conversion. I spent most of the day on it, and I'm mostly happy with how it turned out. I found a Hayden brand adjustable thermostat controller and integrated that into my install. Its instructions said it was good for a 30A fan, but I felt its power wires didn't look beefy enough ( I think they are 12 gauge) for running a 30A fan, let alone this monster Ford fan. Because of that, I also installed a separate 40A relay and some 10 gauge wire to actually power the fan itself; the Hayden controller merely trips the low-powered side of the relay rather than running the fan directly. My power wire from the battery to the relay uses the best inline fuse setup I could find; it is like this:
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRRD-YLMBGd2BzcTb9voFjD1FgGSLFxxdD5b0_ycFL0mWN-fkc&t=1&usg=__h7TLhSCGj3bSgqQN4VT4eHCvl24=)
I inserted a 30A fuse into it (which was the largest one I had). It uses the traditional automotive style fuse, not the mini ones.
Anyway, I buttoned everything up and started the Jeep. After an extended period of idling, the engine warmed and the thermostat opened. I had guessed and tried adjusting the thermostat to where I wanted it, and I may have done a fair job: just as the temp needle began cresting the 210^ mark, the controller activated... and my 30A inline fuse promptly blew. :brick: As a reminder, my Ford fan connector only has two wires; I think I am running my fan only on the HIGH setting.
Do they make these fuses in a 40A size? If not, what style of inline fuse arrangement have you other guys used? Any help you can provide would be very... helpful.
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get a couple of resistive loads off some dual fan taurus shrouds and put them in series with your fan, they should be inside of the shroud so they get cooled off while the fan is running, that will lower your amps (try with one or 2, for me just 1 was still too fast). You could use a 50A fuse just like the ones in the PDU by the battery but you should match the wires for that. you should also match the relay or the contacts will be damaged in it as well if you go with a 40 AMP fuse (or 50).
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You're going to have to jump up to the jumbo fuse to get that kind of amperage. Run the low side of the fan if you have it, plenty fast to cool the 2.5L engine.
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You're going to have to jump up to the jumbo fuse to get that kind of amperage. Run the low side of the fan if you have it, plenty fast to cool the 2.5L engine.
X2; I used a Jumbo 40A connected to the low side of my fan as a back up (use a relay to activate it). The high side is connected to the DC Controler...
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The fuse and switch are just not up to par with that fan. The DC controller is an ok unit, they fail and customer service is less than par. A writeup I did a few years ago on pirate on it. I wouldn't buy from him again.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293231&highlight=ccrm (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293231&highlight=ccrm)
You need a relay...... 12volt guy has them cheap. http://12voltguy.com/web/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=38&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=43&vmcchk=1&Itemid=43 (http://12voltguy.com/web/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=38&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=43&vmcchk=1&Itemid=43)
I have used the ford taurus CCRM and it works, I have the pinout drawing if you need it. It has 4 relays inside.
On my jeepspeed I use this painless unit, but don't need a temp switch because when the car is on we are racing!
http://www.painlesswiring.com/webcatalog/largeview.php?SearchField=30100 (http://www.painlesswiring.com/webcatalog/largeview.php?SearchField=30100)
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You need a relay...... 12volt guy has them cheap. http://12voltguy.com/web/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=38&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=43&vmcchk=1&Itemid=43 (http://12voltguy.com/web/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=38&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=43&vmcchk=1&Itemid=43)
Dude, that's a 70 amp relay. I seriously doubt the OEM wires in the fan's connector can handle that much current. There has got to be a better way.
I have used the ford taurus CCRM and it works, I have the pinout drawing if you need it. It has 4 relays inside.
This sounds more promising. Can you post that drawing? Or email it to me?
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Dude, that's a 70 amp relay. I seriously doubt the OEM wires in the fan's connector can handle that much current. There has got to be a better way.
Nothing wrong with using a 70 amp relay, it's not there to protect the wiring and it won't cause the circuit to pull 70 amps. It just means it can handle that much so it will be more reliable. The fuse will protect the wiring.
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Dude, that's a 70 amp relay. I seriously doubt the OEM wires in the fan's connector can handle that much current. There has got to be a better way.
This sounds more promising. Can you post that drawing? Or email it to me?
Someone here did a test on the fan and it turned out not to pull the 70A that everyone seays it pulls... IIRC, it was 40A on high at startup.
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The CCRM's fail too, that's why there are so many Taurus's in the junk yards, CCRM fails, fan quits, motor blows.
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What they said ^^^^ about the relay, you are just trying to protect the fuse from the initial spike of the fan coming on. With a fan that good it cools the radiator quickly so it comes on and off a lot. I've blown 40 amp relay's in a short time with it.
The 70 amp relays are the ones to use. I've raced with one for 4-5 years without a failure. The high fan wire on the fan is 10 guage. It can handle the draw of the fan if the relay is close to the fan. Ford put the CCRM's on the shroud! Your controller will cook if you just increase the fuse size. Wire the controller to the relay and let the relay handle the load.
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here's a simple diagram that uses a temp switch.
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What they said ^^^^ about the relay, you are just trying to protect the fuse from the initial spike of the fan coming on. With a fan that good it cools the radiator quickly so it comes on and off a lot. I've blown 40 amp relay's in a short time with it.
The 70 amp relays are the ones to use. I've raced with one for 4-5 years without a failure. The high fan wire on the fan is 10 guage. It can handle the draw of the fan if the relay is close to the fan. Ford put the CCRM's on the shroud! Your controller will cook if you just increase the fuse size. Wire the controller to the relay and let the relay handle the load.
you're spot on with all the statements but i'm not sure about the relay position
the current thru the relay has nothing to do with where it is located on the wire, it's a closed DC circuit - i'm trying to understand why do you think it has to be closer to the fan?
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I bought one of those monster size inline fuse holders from carquest and a 60 amp fuse to go with it....I blew 30's easily and was also blowing 40 amp fuses. The 60 has done fine since installed. I am also running high speed when the temps call for it.
Bought one of those fancy laser temp readers at Harbor Freight last week so I can measure the temp where the sensor is to dial it in.
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I think he means it has to do with the 10 gauge fan wire, not the relay. For a given voltage and given total circuit resistance you will have a certain amount of current. However, the voltage drops across different parts of the circuit will be different, being greater for the sections with higher resistance. Watts = Voltage x Amps, so if the thinner fan wire has relatively higher resistance, that part of the circuit will dissipate more watts. By making the wire shorter, it will have less resistance and will dissipate fewer watts and not heat up as much.
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I think he means it has to do with the 10 gauge fan wire, not the relay. For a given voltage and given total circuit resistance you will have a certain amount of current. However, the voltage drops across different parts of the circuit will be different, being greater for the sections with higher resistance. Watts = Voltage x Amps, so if the thinner fan wire has relatively higher resistance, that part of the circuit will dissipate more watts. By making the wire shorter, it will have less resistance and will dissipate fewer watts and not heat up as much.
You're coming from the battery or PDU so i assumed we were talking the same length of cable (unless you move the battery is more or less going to result in the same overall length)
what i was saying is that in a closed DC circuit with all the components is series the current (amps) is the same thru all wires/components regardless of the combination of thinner/thicker wires (the thinner ones should be at least the size recommended for the fuse in the circuit though). What you're saying about voltage drop is more related to the loss in the circuit or the ohm/length specific resistivity for that wire if you wish which would in fact drop the amps in the circuit (not that is a good thing but will put less stress on the relay and not the other way around).
EDIT: actually you pretty much said the same thing
For a given voltage and given total circuit resistance you will have a certain amount of current.
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My main point is that the heating of a resistor (or a section of wire) is related to the watts, not just the amps. This is why the voltage drop across different sections of the wiring is important to consider. The sections with more resistance will be dissipating a higher proportion of the watts (heating up more).
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My main point is that the heating of a resistor (or a section of wire) is related to the watts, not just the amps. This is why the voltage drop across different sections of the wiring is important to consider. The sections with more resistance will be dissipating a higher proportion of the watts (heating up more).
ok, you're right but i still don't understand what's that got to do with where you locate the relay
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Let's say you have a circuit that is just a battery with a thick (relay) wire and a thin (fan) wire in series. The thin wire will melt first.
Next you could try making the thick wire longer and the thin wire shorter. This would result in less power dissipation by the thin wire. Sounds good so far but...
Since the thin wire is shorter its ability to dissipate heat will also be reduced in proportion to its length.
I did some calculations and it turns out that the power dissipation per inch will not be reduced unless you make the thick wire very much longer, enough to make the total resistance greater than in the original circuit.
So you are right, I was wrong, putting the relay closer will not usually help. Also, if all the wires are of the same gauge, the location of the relay will not matter.
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Let's say you have a circuit that is just a battery with a thick (relay) wire and a thin (fan) wire in series. The thin wire will melt first.
Next you could try making the thick wire longer and the thin wire shorter. This would result in less power dissipation by the thin wire. Sounds good so far but...
Since the thin wire is shorter its ability to dissipate heat will also be reduced in proportion to its length.
I did some calculations and it turns out that the power dissipation per inch will not be reduced unless you make the thick wire very much longer, enough to make the total resistance greater than in the original circuit.
So you are right, I was wrong, putting the relay closer will not usually help. Also, if all the wires are of the same gauge, the location of the relay will not matter.
i see what you were trying to say now, i wasn't even thinking different lengths, i was thinking it's always the same and just the relay be by the battery or by the fan.
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Bought one of those fancy laser temp readers at Harbor Freight last week so I can measure the temp where the sensor is to dial it in.
Fancy reader at Harbor Freight? I did not know they carried any fancy stuff...
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How i solved my problem
Referring primarily to power tools, a good friend of mine used to always say, "Air is our friend; electricity is to be feared and respected." I have taken that phrase to heart and it has served me well over the years. As such, I wasn't exactly enamored with installing fuses of a higher capacity than the wires they are supposed to protect. To make matters worse, I was under the gun: I needed to get this thing fixed immediately so I had a way to drive to work today.
In the end, I stopped in at my local AutoZone to see their selection of aftermarket fans. They had ones as large as 16" on the shelf, so I bought one and swapped it in place of my Ford fan. (At $65, it wasn't much more expensive than the wrecking yard fan.) All my wiring modifications remained unchanged. With that, I now have a fully functional electric fan. Even after dozens of on-off cycles, all the fuses are happy and intact.
And you guys were right: the engine is so quiet now without the mechanical fan.
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Glad you're on the road again. It's been my experience that parts-store fans don't last as long as OEM fans like the Taurus, they just don't seem to be made as well, not as heavy. I always lost the bearings in short order.
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Fancy reader at Harbor Freight? I did not know they carried any fancy stuff...
Chinese is fancy, right??
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It's been my experience that parts-store fans don't last as long as OEM fans like the Taurus, they just don't seem to be made as well, not as heavy. I always lost the bearings in short order.
On the surface, I tend to feel the same way. I did once use a similar aftermarket fan (also purchased at AutoZone) in a project car and it served me faithfully until I sold the car two years later, but I appreciate your concern. I am still not opposed to trying to make the Ford fan work (especially due to its near-perfect shrouding), but it'll have to wait until I can afford to take the Jeep out of service for a few days--right now the Thunderbird isn't legal to drive, so the Jeep is all I have.