4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: chrisfranklin on January 30, 2011, 10:18:00 PM
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Since my 4Banger is only on 31MTs (not 33/35MTs) I figured I wouldn't be throwing too much money away if I worked on the engine a little more so it could maybe turn the 31MTs on the highway a little bit more strongly on the stock 4:10 gearing. If I'd been on 33/35s for tires, I'd have just gone straight to 4:88s and not messed with the engine.
With the current setup, it is getting way old sometimes having to drop to frigging 3rd gear, doing 60mph at 4000+ RPM on some grades and falling behind all the grandmas/grandpas waving at me, cruising by me at a steady 65-70mph speed limit. Headers may not help a ton for this, but they probably won't hurt. Can live with dropping to 4th no problem, but not 3rd.
I ordered some Borla 4Banger headers Model # "17058" since I've had one of their cat-backs for going on 7 years. Liked the long-tube design on the PaceSetter Ceramic coated 4Banger headers, but figured I'd stick with the exhaust make that has worked ok for me thus far.
According to Borla, these "17058s" are apparently the ones that fit the 91-95 4Bangers. Thing is you search around for "17058"s and surprisingly few place sell them.
Anyway, once I get them in there I might throw a header-wrap on them also -- figure the stainless tubing won't care. And I've had good luck with header wrap on a different vehicle.
I could also mail them out to get Jet Hot coated before installing them
Will probably follow all this with an electric fan out of a junk yard. And try not to add any additional weight to the vehicle (yeah right ::)) :lol:
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Not sure if I'd do the header wrap. Depending on if you wheel in the wet, wraps hold water nicely.
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Not sure if I'd do the header wrap. Depending on if you wheel in the wet, wraps hold water nicely.
Maybe instead of the heat fabric you wind around the tubings, I could do one of these
http://www.thermotec.com/products/14003-header-manifold-blanket.html
The outside is aluminized, but inside contacting the tubing is fabric. some water might still sneak up in there while Im driving in bad weather but the "blanket" probably won't get drenched as with the cloth wrap. If I decide to play "Das Boot" with my Jeep (unlikely in my case) maybe this aluminized "blanket" version will uninstall fairly readily also.
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Should change this post title to "Thought I bought some Borla Headers"
I get a note back from Hesco that supposed to be them giving me a shipping price for the order. Here's what I get:
"Chris,
In contacting Borla they inform us the header is no longer a part made by them. I will cancel your order. It just wasn’t a popular piece with them anymore and not worth production.
Bennie
From: Christopher Franklin [mailto:chris@chrisfranklin.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:01 PM
To: bennie@hesco.us
Cc: bennie@hesco.us"
Guess I'm down to what for headers now? Banks and PaceSetter?
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Wow that sucks. Order it from someone else. I'm sure there is still stock out there.
I've noticed Hurst doesn't make the shifter for the AX5 anymore either.
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I bought the banks headers a while back. no issue with them. call banks directly and see if they are running any specials. i got the header and cat-back from them for a good rate.
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Wow that sucks. Order it from someone else. I'm sure there is still stock out there.
I've noticed Hurst doesn't make the shifter for the AX5 anymore either.
I'll try a couple of other places, but I wouldn't be surprised if they say the same thing. Groan :lol:
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I've had several dirt car and road race car headers ceramic coated. I'd do that long before wrapping. Ive work on two sprint cars witht eh ceramic and within a minute of coming off track they are bare hand touchable...
Dave
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I've had several dirt car and road race car headers ceramic coated. I'd do that long before wrapping. Ive work on two sprint cars witht eh ceramic and within a minute of coming off track they are bare hand touchable...
Dave
:thumb:
I was thinking about doing this to my header so that would make me really want to do it now!! good info
how are they for heat while racing? is it better or the same as them being raped for throwing off heat?
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I've had several dirt car and road race car headers ceramic coated. I'd do that long before wrapping. Ive work on two sprint cars witht eh ceramic and within a minute of coming off track they are bare hand touchable...
Dave
Pacesetter does a ceramic coating on their headers. I'm not sure if it helps prevent rust though. I know someone wrapped their regular pacesetter and it turned into a rusty mess under the wrappings and they had to get a warranty replacement.
It's sad that Borla has discontinued the whole 2.5L line. Although the exhaust is shared with the 4.2 and 4.0L's so it's really not changing. With the choices available, I'd probably go with the Banks. They were late to the game but now that Borla is out they are probably the only choice. Not a bad choice either.
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Pacesetter does a ceramic coating on their headers. I'm not sure if it helps prevent rust though. I know someone wrapped their regular pacesetter and it turned into a rusty mess under the wrappings and they had to get a warranty replacement.
It's sad that Borla has discontinued the whole 2.5L line. Although the exhaust is shared with the 4.2 and 4.0L's so it's really not changing. With the choices available, I'd probably go with the Banks. They were late to the game but now that Borla is out they are probably the only choice. Not a bad choice either.
I still don't understand why your so against pacesetter.. mine is still running strong!! has been for quite a few years now
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I still don't understand why your so against pacesetter.. mine is still running strong!! has been for quite a few years now
Poor quality. I know several people who have had them replaced because of rust.
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Poor quality. I know several people who have had them replaced because of rust.
yeah, good design but made of crappy material (i have one) - cheap enough though.
not sure if they have a stainless (can't remember but i don't think they do).
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yeah, good design but made of crappy material (i have one) - cheap enough though.
not sure if they have a stainless (can't remember but i don't think they do).
Nope, standard and a ceramic coating version.
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Do the banks headers come with a downpipe? The ones I've seen advertised show a photo that looks like this http://www.quadratec.com/products/17601_502_07.htm. if no downpipe, does Banks even sell one?
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Poor quality. I know several people who have had them replaced because of rust.
after how many years of use? I understand it's not stainless but you pay for what you get and this header was extremely cheep price !! bang for the buck it's well worth it especially on something you run a big risk of smashing it
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If you go with the Banks header, you do not need to replace the downpipe ( on the 4 banger anyway). It will bolt right up to the existing downpipe. I have had mine on for 1.5 years and 25k miles with no problems so far. It was a definate seat of the pants improvment with the header, and the electric fan. I kept up with a couple guys with 4.0 jeeps going to western MD back in December over the mountains with no problems. They were very impressed that my squirrels could keep up!
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I thought the banks used the stock downpipe?
Re the ceramic coating, it is up to 500 degrees cooler with my heat gun than a bare pipe.
This is coming straight off track and checking them fast as I can to make sure the motor
is burning the methanol evenly. 360 sprint car running mechanical injection methanol and
turning about 8500 on track. Two seasons so far and no sign of the coating giving up.
Dave
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I thought the banks used the stock downpipe?
Re the ceramic coating, it is up to 500 degrees cooler with my heat gun than a bare pipe.
This is coming straight off track and checking them fast as I can to make sure the motor
is burning the methanol evenly. 360 sprint car running mechanical injection methanol and
turning about 8500 on track. Two seasons so far and no sign of the coating giving up.
Dave
would that prevent them from rusting (i mean from the inside)?
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Guess I'll order a banks and then send it to get coated. Maybe jet-hot? Interesting what dwtaylorpdx was talking about with the coatings.
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Jet hot is good, there are a bunch of people that do it these days.
Ours were done by a local to Portland shop, they used a "silver-chrome" compound thats supposed to be the best at thermal blocking, its a cool looking silver grey color...
Dave
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I thought the banks used the stock downpipe?
Re the ceramic coating, it is up to 500 degrees cooler with my heat gun than a bare pipe.
This is coming straight off track and checking them fast as I can to make sure the motor
is burning the methanol evenly. 360 sprint car running mechanical injection methanol and
turning about 8500 on track. Two seasons so far and no sign of the coating giving up.
Dave
:thumb:
I was thinking of modifying my header for turbo then having it blasted and coated
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I have not personally seen it, but i heard that Jet hot (I think it was them)
will do them inside and outside. It supposedly brought the thermal barrier up to about 800 degrees.
The beauty part is the quick cool-down. Especially if your jumping on a car to get it out for a A-Main with money on the line... :)
Dave
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I have not personally seen it, but i heard that Jet hot (I think it was them)
will do them inside and outside. It supposedly brought the thermal barrier up to about 800 degrees.
The beauty part is the quick cool-down. Especially if your jumping on a car to get it out for a A-Main with money on the line... :)
Dave
if they can make it inside and out that would be great
does anyone know if pacesetter has it inside coated as well?
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if they can make it inside and out that would be great
does anyone know if pacesetter has it inside coated as well?
probably not sharp
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probably not sharp
most likely and in that case they'll rust from inside just as fast (ok, maybe not as fast but still).
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I checked my account and apparently the store, autocarparts.com processed my order for a set of 92-95 Borla Headers for a 2.5. I had placed the order on 1/31 and hadn't heard back from them along the lines of headers-not-made, headers-not-in-stock. Will see what happens, but I am skeptical.
Jet Hot got back in touch and quoted $220 for inside/outside ceramic coating. Doing a Thermotec header blanket deal runs about $100, so might do the Jet Hot process.
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Do the banks headers come with a downpipe? The ones I've seen advertised show a photo that looks like this http://www.quadratec.com/products/17601_502_07.htm. if no downpipe, does Banks even sell one?
no new downpipe with the banks. you re-use the stock one
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I checked my account and apparently the store, autocarparts.com processed my order for a set of 92-95 Borla Headers for a 2.5. I had placed the order on 1/31 and hadn't heard back from them along the lines of headers-not-made, headers-not-in-stock. Will see what happens, but I am skeptical.
Jet Hot got back in touch and quoted $220 for inside/outside ceramic coating. Doing a Thermotec header blanket deal runs about $100, so might do the Jet Hot process.
That's a lot of cash to pour into the engine.
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Not real thrilled about the idea either. But I know once they're on their I'll end up saying: "darn it, I should have just waited and got the things coated."
It's going to be the heat, not any kind of rust issue thaat's the problem.
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Sure enough I get a note from autocarparts.com they already charged my card:
support . <support@autocarparts.com>
Subject:
Borla - 306986
Date:
02/09/2011 04:13 PM
To:
chris@chrisfranklin.com
Hello,
Unfortunately, the items that you've ordered are discontinued or out of stock. Please take a look at our website and let us know what you would like to switch out to, please reply back to this email with a link or the part numbers to the items you would like to switch to. Please select more than one choice, in case your first choice happens to be discontinued or out of stock as well.
Thank you
Ryan
Customer Service
1-800-419-1152 ext. 113
It's starting to seem like retailers don't seem to keep much in the way of inventory any more. There's probably a set of Borla headers for the 92-95 4Bangers out there somewhere on somebody's shelves, but it'll take plenty of time to locate.
I'll cancel this order and I guess it'll be a set of Banks headers
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I was looking at this piece from Four Wheeler on long tube vs. short tube headers: http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/engine/129_0910_gibson_short_vs_stainless_long_headers/index.html (http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/engine/129_0910_gibson_short_vs_stainless_long_headers/index.html)
It got me thinking: darn, I'd really like to get a long-tube header.
Looking at the Banks and Pacesetter, it looks like Pacesetter has got more of a long tube design. But then Banks is stainless and, for me, stainless steel has worked well.
Maybe I'll just do a ceramic coated Pacesetter for the time being. If this was a 4.0 I'd go with a stainless steel make of header no questions asked, but right now, to me, exhaust lifespan is secondary to engine performance on this 4banger.
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i think the best design is the 2 into 2 into 1, can't remember what brand it was but I don't think it's available anymore. Pacesetter imo is the second one as far as flow, but it's not great as far as workmanship not to mention there's no stainless version. I have the plain steel one but i am thinking now that should have probably spent the extra cash for the ceramic one (although i have no idea how long it will last).
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I would recommend reading this article in Moab Jeeper Magazine (http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/technical/listing.cfm?articleID=235) before buying a Borla header. I also bought a Borla for my '95YJ 2.5L and had the exact issues described in the article including not accepting my calls. I did not take it to an exhaust shop as they did in the article and as a result my exhaust rubs and rattles in several places, most annoying. Maybe I should have. During my last conversation with Borla the CSR revealed that an actual car was not always used during design and so a perfect fit may not be achievable, to which I stated that I would be happy to help them out and loan them mine, if it would help them build a better product. His reply was that they would be happy to build me a custom exhaust system... I thought I bought a custom exhaust system, I mean it costs enough. Just a thought...
Wheezer
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I would recommend reading this article in Moab Jeeper Magazine (http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/technical/listing.cfm?articleID=235) before buying a Borla header. I also bought a Borla for my '95YJ 2.5L and had the exact issues described in the article including not accepting my calls. I did not take it to an exhaust shop as they did in the article and as a result my exhaust rubs and rattles in several places, most annoying. Maybe I should have. During my last conversation with Borla the CSR revealed that an actual car was not always used during design and so a perfect fit may not be achievable, to which I stated that I would be happy to help them out and loan them mine, if it would help them build a better product. His reply was that they would be happy to build me a custom exhaust system... I thought I bought a custom exhaust system, I mean it costs enough. Just a thought...
Wheezer
Interesting to hear. I think Borla has backed off making a header for the 4banger altogether. I posted a couple of notes in this thread that I got from sellers saying Borla wasn't making them anymore
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I went ahead and ordered a set of the ceramic pacesetter headers. Also ordered a fiberglass wing for added downforce :lol:
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Also ordered a fiberglass wing for added downforce :lol:
install it upside down, will make it lighter on the trail to go over obstacles :weee:
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install it upside down, will make it lighter on the trail to go over obstacles :weee:
Right on. I'm going to take that a little further and pipe the exhaust up to the top so it exits right in front of the wing. I rev the engine and the exhaust flow will generate some added lift. Awesome :lol:
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What about headers for a 2001 TJ. Will those fit the car?
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Are yall with pacesetter headers feeling like you are getting anymore power? Does the exhaust sound any different? My exhaust is going to get reworked anyway when it gets linked, and i was looking at throwing one on. For $200 a new header and downpipe isnt bad.
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Are yall with pacesetter headers feeling like you are getting anymore power? Does the exhaust sound any different? My exhaust is going to get reworked anyway when it gets linked, and i was looking at throwing one on. For $200 a new header and downpipe isnt bad.
is the '97-'99 Jeep exhaust different than yours?
http://www.streetsideauto.com/search.asp?keywords=70-1138
$170 for that one and guess what... Free Shipping !!!
if you set the vehicle to 2.5L TJ '01 and then click on "all" tab and click on the part it says it fits that year, but I would call pacesetter to make sure.
EDIT: I actually meant to quote this post
What about headers for a 2001 TJ. Will those fit the car?
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Got these in the other day. Coating job looks ok; it's exterior only, but I expected that. Welds look ok. Downpipe looks like it's maybe about 1/2 inch wider than the oem unit and it doesn't have any crimps to it; its got the ceramic coating on it also.
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/coatedheaders.jpg)
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/Downpipe.jpg)
No gasket though. You guys recommend a gasket from an oem supplier or is there an after-market unit out there that's better?
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Got these in the other day. Coating job looks ok; it's exterior only, but I expected that. Welds look ok. Downpipe looks like it's maybe about 1/2 inch wider than the oem unit and it doesn't have any crimps to it; its got the ceramic coating on it also.
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/coatedheaders.jpg)
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/Downpipe.jpg)
No gasket though. You guys recommend a gasket from an oem supplier or is there an after-market unit out there that's better?
comes with a gasket (mine did and was the cheapo version) and with washers (make sure you have those as they are custom ones, you cannot use the stock washers) - if you're missing both then they messed up or the bag containing the hardware got lost.
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You're right, Sharp. Gasket was inside the big shipping box between two pieces of card-board stapled together. When I dug it out I saw that the cardboard was labeled "Gasket" doh :lol:
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You're right, Sharp. Gasket was inside the big shipping box between two pieces of card-board stapled together. When I dug it out I saw that the cardboard was labeled "Gasket" doh :lol:
:thumb:
i wonder - is that coating going to keep it much cooler?
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I saw it mentioned somewhere that they were using JetHot and said they applied two coats. Once I get it on there I'll see how it goes in terms of cooling. right now though, I'd be satisfied if it at least didn't peel/burn off.
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I've seen a few pictures of the pacesetter headers showing rust through the ceramic coating.
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/th_DSC006371.jpg) (http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/?action=view¤t=DSC006371.jpg)
My guess is the shiny ones I just got will probably do the same thing if they hold together long enough. Anybody ever tried adding additional ceramic coating over an existing ceramic header coating. I figure you just prep the surface and use the same brand as the factory originally did.
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I've seen a few pictures of the pacesetter headers showing rust through the ceramic coating.
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/DSC006371.jpg) (http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/?action=view¤t=DSC006371.jpg)
My guess is the shiny ones I just got will probably do the same thing if they hold together long enough. Anybody ever tried adding additional ceramic coating over an existing ceramic header coating. I figure you just prep the surface and use the same brand as the factory originally did.
Judging by the pattern of the rust it looks like the coating cooked off leaving near bare metal in spots which allowed rust to form.
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I saw that photo in the top post at LS1 forum http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-external-engine/1232028-pacesetter-headers-poor-quality-warranty.html (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-external-engine/1232028-pacesetter-headers-poor-quality-warranty.html). There's a few others pictures also.
From what I read elsewhere, the black paint that goes on the pacesetter headers is supposedly there to prevent rust during shipping :lol:
Rust doesn't bother me too much. Holes and cracks do.
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I saw that photo in the top post at LS1 forum http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-external-engine/1232028-pacesetter-headers-poor-quality-warranty.html (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-external-engine/1232028-pacesetter-headers-poor-quality-warranty.html). There's a few others pictures also.
From what I read elsewhere, the black paint that goes on the pacesetter headers is supposedly there to prevent rust during shipping :lol:
Rust doesn't bother me too much. Holes and cracks do.
Well once the finish cooks off it will turn a nice even brown.
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Still kind of makes me wonder if I just should have bought the standard black painted jobs, stripped the paint, paid the $200 for the inside/outside coating done at JetHot, then got them back and put them in. Total would have been under $400. Still haven't installed the factory ceramic coated version I have, so not really to late to change course.
Of course, I can't say that getting the JetHot people to do the coating would be enough to block the rust that would still probably show on mild steel tubing that got abraded by gravel or whatever.
Since the header options for the 4banger are pretty limited right now, who here's going to step up and blow the cash to get Borla (Edelbrock, or somebody else) to make a custom long tube stainless set for the 4banger? :lol: Then everybody can maybe pay less to get copies made. No takers :lol:
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Still kind of makes me wonder if I just should have bought the standard black painted jobs, stripped the paint, paid the $200 for the inside/outside coating done at JetHot, then got them back and put them in. Total would have been under $400. Still haven't installed the factory ceramic coated version I have, so not really to late to change course.
Of course, I can't say that getting the JetHot people to do the coating would be enough to block the rust that would still probably show on mild steel tubing that got abraded by gravel or whatever.
Since the header options for the 4banger are pretty limited right now, who here's going to step up and blow the cash to get Borla (Edelbrock, or somebody else) to make a custom long tube stainless set for the 4banger? :lol: Then everybody can maybe pay less to get copies made. No takers :lol:
Banks still makes them from what I understand.
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Banks still makes them from what I understand.
That's true
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I just installed a brand new banks header on my rig. Summit has them in stock.
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I got the Rustys (Pacesetter Ceramic coated) installed today. So far, engine seems like it's idling more quietly and the initial high idle (about 1300 for a couple of minutes after startup) seems like it's gone. Maybe there was something going on with the old gasket/manifold that I hadn't identified.
I didn't have a chance to really lay in to it, but it did seem like it was running a little easier around town -- not as deep in to the gas pedal and all that.
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Judging by the pattern of the rust it looks like the coating cooked off leaving near bare metal in spots which allowed rust to form.
Looking at this photo again, I saw little, what looked like fabric threads on the header in the photo. Looks like maybe the guy had heat wrap on there.
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Looking at this photo again, I saw little, what looked like fabric threads on the header in the photo. Looks like maybe the guy had heat wrap on there.
Exhaust wrap gets wet maybe not to long before the driver turns off the engine. The ceramic header perhaps cools faster than uncoated steel versions so there's no heat remaining to maybe steam-off the "wrap-trapped" water with the engine. Then oxygen in the water has plenty of time to react with the mild steel and rust starts forming.
Me, I don't plan to wrap these headers, that's for sure. But, i still suspect rust will make an appearance sooner or later.
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If you live in a rust belt then for sure, do not swap them. They trap moisture and hold it against the metal. The coating will eventually cook off if it's not on thick enough. This happens with aluminized coatings which is really aluminum paint. Better to have them uncovered so you can see when they rust.
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Looking at this photo again, I saw little, what looked like fabric threads on the header in the photo. Looks like maybe the guy had heat wrap on there.
those "fabric" threads are off some sealing he put in where the clamp goes on - you can also see it thru the cut on the OD pipe.
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I'd been driving around with the new headers on for a few days, but performance seemed to be off. Then noticed coolant reservoir was down and saw coolant on the ground.
Saw that a leak was coming from the heater hoses, not the water pump or somewhere else in the cooling system. When the radiator was changed recently, the old, probably 17 year old hoses were apparently kept...
Replaced the heater hoses/clamps and coolant leaks seemed to have ceased over the last week, but I am still keeping an eye on the cooling system in general.
Engine seems to have finally woken up after the cooling system was restored to order. The highway-speed torque I was looking for with the headers seems to finally have come on-line.