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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: stan98tj on March 02, 2011, 01:05:36 PM
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Im getting ready to regear and ive been thinking over different options. Id like to go with 4.56 and i was thinking about swapping out the d35 for a 44. Quadratec has some complete d44s with gear ratio of your choice and some have elockers (all things that i want) BUT, they are listed at $2500-$3000, well over what i want to spend. does anyone know where i can get a d44 for under $1500?
I did a quick ebay search and found one for 350bucks but it is off a ZJ...am i in for a pain in the ass fabrication job to make it fit?
they state it is missing brake pads and parking brake bands.
here is the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-ZJ-Dana-44-Rear-Differential-Axle-3-73-Wrangler-TJ-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4aa8b3b1e6QQitemZ320657928678QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-ZJ-Dana-44-Rear-Differential-Axle-3-73-Wrangler-TJ-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4aa8b3b1e6QQitemZ320657928678QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
if it's not too bad of a job to fit it for a wrangler i think this would be worth the price. But i dont know what would have to be done to make it fit.
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$350 sounds pretty good if it is in good shape. You can get the brackets pre-made and ready to weld on so it won't be a big fab job.
However, the ZJ D44 is nor recommended due to the aluminum center section. It would be better to get one from a Cherokee or Comanche, or an Explorer Ford 8.8 (with disk brakes) to make it easier to find.
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$350 sounds pretty good if it is in good shape. You can get the brackets pre-made and ready to weld on so it won't be a big fab job.
However, the ZJ D44 is nor recommended due to the aluminum center section. It would be better to get one from a Cherokee or Comanche, or an Explorer Ford 8.8 (with disk brakes) to make it easier to find.
so the d44 from the grand cherokee is not as strong as the d44 from a cherokee? Is it still stronger than a d35? do our 4bangers put down enough power to cause a worry?
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$350 sounds pretty good if it is in good shape. You can get the brackets pre-made and ready to weld on so it won't be a big fab job.
However, the ZJ D44 is nor recommended due to the aluminum center section. It would be better to get one from a Cherokee or Comanche, or an Explorer Ford 8.8 (with disk brakes) to make it easier to find.
They also use C-clips and non-standard gears.
If you're going to bother swapping axles do it right and do it once.
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They also use C-clips and non-standard gears.
If you're going to bother swapping axles do it right and do it once.
im going to be changing the gears. does that take care of the non standard gears? im not sure what C-clips are.
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im going to be changing the gears. does that take care of the non standard gears? im not sure what C-clips are.
No the carriers are different as well.
In short, a ZJ D44 isn't worth swapping.
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No the carriers are different as well.
In short, a ZJ D44 isn't worth swapping.
damn. and i thought i was doing well. most of the prices im finding for d44s are 1600 bucks and above.
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so back to square 1. does anyone know where i can get a d44 for under $1000?
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Junkyard. Look for a mid '90s Isuzu Rodeo or Honda Passport for a d44 rear axle with disc brakes. It'll have a 6-lug wheel pattern but makes for a perfect match to a Wagoneer front d44.
Or look for an 8.8 from a '95+ Ford Explorer. It has disc brakes and same 5x4.5" lug pattern as you currently have.
Either axle will run $150-$250 at most junkyards. The 8.8 can be found with 4.10 gears, the Rodeo/Passport d44 will have either 4.10 or 4.30 gears.
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Junkyard. Look for a mid '90s Isuzu Rodeo or Honda Passport for a d44 rear axle with disc brakes. It'll have a 6-lug wheel pattern but makes for a perfect match to a Wagoneer front d44.
Or look for an 8.8 from a '95+ Ford Explorer. It has disc brakes and same 5x4.5" lug pattern as you currently have.
Either axle will run $150-$250 at most junkyards. The 8.8 can be found with 4.10 gears, the Rodeo/Passport d44 will have either 4.10 or 4.30 gears.
as for the rodeo/passport is there a way to change the lug pattern without using an adapter? and is that a complicated/expensive fix? Also, is it a direct fit?
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If the width of the passport or rodeo axle is the same as a Jeep Dana44, you could simply swap axle shafts or run a set of wheel adapters
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id like to make sure the honda/isuzu dana 44 is the correct width. i dont want it looking stupid when im done installing it. I havent found anything relating to size or width of the axle. Most info points to having to shave/modifiy to allow for the correct lug pattern. anyone know if the Honda/Rodeo d44 are the correct width?
Oh and one more thing. From reading online ive run accross people saying that these honda/rodeo D44s have C-clips. What are they and why is that bad?
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If you are swapping out only the rear axle and want the EXACT width, your best choice will be a Cherokee Dana 44. A Rubicon D44 would also work but they are slightly less sturdy. I have a dodge pickup dana 44 in my YJ that is also the exact right width and has the stock bolt pattern. I got this axle here in Mexico (many times the same truck is sold in the US with a corporate axle and in Mexico with a dana 44) and have no idea if anything similar can be found in the US, but it could be that these axles are to be found in junkyards if you look around enough. Any other rear axle will have a slightly different width, usually not enough to matter or look dumb but still slightly different.
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In response to your question about c-clips:
C-clips are "C" shaped retainers that prevent the axle shafts from moving out of the carrier/housing/tubes. The axle shafts have a circumferential groove machined in for the c clip to slide into. This groove reduces the diameter of the shaft in that one spot (the inside tip), creating a weak spot in the shaft.
I am using a Ford Explorer 8.8 on my TJ - the 8.8 has c-clips, but the shafts are 31 spline, so it's less of an issue. I have the Superior Super 88 kit with c-clip eliminator and chrome moly shafts. You don't have to change your wheels with the 8.8.
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If you are swapping out only the rear axle and want the EXACT width, your best choice will be a Cherokee Dana 44. A Rubicon D44 would also work but they are slightly less sturdy. I have a dodge pickup dana 44 in my YJ that is also the exact right width and has the stock bolt pattern. I got this axle here in Mexico (many times the same truck is sold in the US with a corporate axle and in Mexico with a dana 44) and have no idea if anything similar can be found in the US, but it could be that these axles are to be found in junkyards if you look around enough. Any other rear axle will have a slightly different width, usually not enough to matter or look dumb but still slightly different.
yes i want the exact (or as close as i can) width. i am only replacing the rear. The honda/isuzu d44 measures in at 58" and i think the d35 is 60" or a hair over. i dont think i want to go more narrow as this would pull the wheels in and they are in close enough in the rear as it is. Im also going to have to look for a dana44 that has a center diff. i think this eliminates the wagoneer d44s because they have a passenger side diff (i think). I didn't know the Cherokees came with dana 44s. What was the model/year truck that you got your axle from, neale? I know a lot of ppl are suggesting just putting in a ford 8.8. I kind of wanted to keep the jeep as close to what chrysler offered as possible, so i wanted to keep dana axles in there. I think if this becomes too crazy i may just have to go with a ford. Ive been reading that the d44 isnt all that much stronger than the d35 anyway. according to torque tests the d35 is rated 4,000-4300 lb.ft and the d44 is only 4600-5000lb.ft. However, it seems the ford 8.8 is narrower by 1.25" than the d35 and i dont want to end up having my wheels pulled in closer to the frame in the rear.
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The Waggy d44s (swapping in both front and rear) are a tried and true swap that works. The Ford 8.8 is also fully tested by many Jeepers. Very few Cherokees and Comanches had the D44 so they may be hard to find. My D44 seems to be from a late 70s or early 80s dodge truck, I've never been able to pinpoint the exact year. Also, the D44 is much stronger than the D35, there are some strange numbers posted around but the real world experiences speak for themselves. If you really get into fabbing you could get almost any D44 and have it narrowed so that Cherokee axle shafts fit in it.
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I run both front and rear D44's from an '89 grand wagoneer. Pretty simple swap. Driver side diff in the front. Had it regeared. Had to cut and weld new spring perches and shock mounts. They use the same u-joints, so I didnt have to change the driveshafts or have them modified. They are six lug though, but I had a pretty simple fix for that.. Six lug wheels. :D However, I think they are about an inch or a little over an inch wider. Not too shabby..
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Oh, and it only cost me $100 bucks to convert the front into using manual hubs :P
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The Waggy d44s (swapping in both front and rear) are a tried and true swap that works. The Ford 8.8 is also fully tested by many Jeepers. Very few Cherokees and Comanches had the D44 so they may be hard to find. My D44 seems to be from a late 70s or early 80s dodge truck, I've never been able to pinpoint the exact year. Also, the D44 is much stronger than the D35, there are some strange numbers posted around but the real world experiences speak for themselves. If you really get into fabbing you could get almost any D44 and have it narrowed so that Cherokee axle shafts fit in it.
if the d44 from the waggy doesnt have a center mounted diff, how will i get it to bolt up on the rear end?
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if the d44 from the waggy doesnt have a center mounted diff, how will i get it to bolt up on the rear end?
Extend the driveshaft and bolt it up? The offset doesn't really matter as long as the U-joint is still working within it's spec.
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I can tell yoy from personal experience the ford 8.8 is the best route IMO. I had the same questions for these guys just two months ago they gave me the info and I ran with it. Got the 8.8 for 200 brackets for 200 welding was 200 master gear and overhaul kit with new seals and bearing for 469 for front and rear rubi parking brake cables and put it in. Runs great. Cheap and easy to get parts for. Stronger than a 44. Rear disk brakes. Yes it is 5/8 inch shorter on each side. I just got a set of 3/4 inch spacers for the rear and it looks just like the front. Really easy setup and you will be happy.
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if the d44 from the waggy doesnt have a center mounted diff, how will i get it to bolt up on the rear end?
It is just slightly to the side, not enough to cause a problem.
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The Wagoneer equipped with Quadratrac has a rear diff that is as offset as the front diff. Many Waggy's came without Quadratrac 4wd and have centered rear diffs.
If you go 8.8 in the rear you may be limiting a future front axle upgrade due to the smallish lug pattern.
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Isuzu & Honda d44's are not c-clip axles. The mid 90's that I run are about 58", a tad narrower than stock axles. I run 1" wheel spacers. I've read that late '90s Zu d44's are wider, like 61"-63", but I haven't verified it.
The nice thing about the Zu & Waggy combo is 4whl disc brakes & 6lug wheels are super common. Great opportunity to upgrade the front axle at the same time.
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If you go 8.8 in the rear you may be limiting a future front axle upgrade due to the smallish lug pattern.
They are also prone to spinning axle tubes. I've also heard the bearing caps can loosen but I don't think I've ever heard of one actually doing it. Ford as well as some aftermarket companies make a girdle to preload the diff bolts which helps prevent some of the carrier flex to the housing. The 8.8" also uses C-clips. Although most use the Explorer 8.8" which has disc brakes that help keep the axle in place so the axle shaft isn't walking out right away.
The other nice thing about the Isuzu axle is the gearing 4.56:1 is fairly common from what I've been told. They also have that vented cast diff cover which is kinda neat as well.
Another axle I'd consider is the Toyota 8". Pretty robust axle for it's size. The removable third member is also a plus. Disc brakes and a electric locker are available stock as well. Same 6 on 5.5" bolt pattern as the SJ and Isuzu.
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The last 8.8 I used (MJ) I welded the tubes to the center chunk due to the history of spinning axle tubes. Easily done with 55% nickel rods.
'Zu d44's are 4.30 or 4.10 gears. Both are 'thick' gears that use a numerically lower carrier (2.72-3.73). They also have one oddball size pinion bearing but it's commonly available, just doesn't come in master install kits.
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I can tell yoy from personal experience the ford 8.8 is the best route IMO. I had the same questions for these guys just two months ago they gave me the info and I ran with it.
Really than why were you just asking about this about three weeks ago. :popcorn:
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I run a Tacoma rear axle in my Jeep. 60" wide, factory 4.56 gears, 5 on 4.5" pattern, and 30 spine shafts. Same clearance as the D35, and as strong as the D44.
I did my own disc brake swap with WJ calipers and Explorer rotors.
Just another option for you to consider. :beers:
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quite honestly, one of the main issues i have (and this might not seem that big) is running a shorter (more narrow) axle. My rear wheels are tucked in kind of close and although i can fix this with a spacer i would rather not due to the well known dangers of running them. Of course this could be blown out of proportion, given that i dont know anyone who has ever lost a wheel due to spacer failure and im fairly certain i dont have any friends who know anyone who has had that misfortune. But i've read about it plenty online...
So the fear is if i go to an Isuzu 58" d44, i will need to run spacers because it will really tuck in the rear wheels.
Jeffy mentions breaking the 8.8....is my 4banger really putting down enough power to break it?
what if i ask this: If given the option between an isuzu d44,wagoneer d44 or a ford 8.8 what are you guys opting for?
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Limiting the choices to only those you mention:
1) If you only want change only the rear axle, go with the 8.8
2) If you change both, get the Waggy front D44 and the Isuzu rear D44 (this would be a better choice long term)
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There's nothing wrong with spacers when properly installed, I've ran them for several years.
I'll soon have Isuzu d44's on both my Jeeps, getting ready to install one in my MJ when the 4.3L goes in.
I run a Waggy d44 front but will be building a 3/4t Ford d44 narrowed to run Waggy shafts for the MJ. This will give the benefit of thicker axletubes and a high pinion center chunk. I'll run the same Waggy/GM 6-lug outers. Building the same axle to replace the Waggy d44 in the YJ as well.
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Spacers are fine if you get a decent set. As for swappin the dana 30 out......from what I have heard and seen they are a fairly stout axle unless you are running bigger the 35s or 37s and they take a 4.88 gear set so I fnd no need or worry about swapping mine out.
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I won't put any money into a TJ LP-30, get a HP-30 out of a cherokee
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Spacers are fine if you get a decent set. As for swappin the dana 30 out......from what I have heard and seen they are a fairly stout axle unless you are running bigger the 35s or 37s and they take a 4.88 gear set so I fnd no need or worry about swapping mine out.
4.88 isn't low enough for 35" or 37" tires, and the small unit bearings won't last very long with the leverage exerted by that size tire.
And what do you consider a decent set of spacers? Have you seen spacers fail due to faulty construction or faulty installation?
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Re: Spacers
the rims (wheels) on our wranglers are center supported, i think moving to spacers would make them stud supported (not sure if my terminology is correct, but hope you understand what i mean) - maybe that's where the difference is and maybe there are spacers that use center support, dunno (never used spacers myself)
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I agree that the cherokee 30 is more stout I'm just saying for someone running the average which is 33s maybe 35s its ok. And 4.88s do plenty fine with 35s for all around driving.
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not only is it more stout but it help gets your drive up out of the way, win win
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I agree that the cherokee 30 is more stout I'm just saying for someone running the average which is 33s maybe 35s its ok. And 4.88s do plenty fine with 35s for all around driving.
Only if you're not in a hurry. for 35's 5.38's make a big difference.
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Some more thoughts if you are considering the 8.8: The super 88 kit for the 8.8 is designed for Jeeps. It uses a Ford 9" bearing at the end of the shafts and longer shafts to restore the stock width. The axle flanges are stronger and are drilled for both 5 on 4.5 and 5 on 5.5 patterns. This means that if you want to upgrade your front axle to a dana 44 in the future (think lower gears), you can run 5 on 5.5 front and rear. It also eliminates the c-clips and provide a upgrade to chrome moly axles. Cost is about $600 (4x4 group buy).
The axle tubes on the 8.8 are larger and thicker than the 35 or the 44. This will make the rear of your jeep set up a little higher - so you'll need some pucks up front to level your rig. As some have pointed out, you will need to weld the tubes to the hogshead as the three little plug welds on each side just don't cut it. Mine has a truss as well.
I bought a wrecked Explorer, sold the engine and few other parts and got my 8.8 for nothing.
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Re: Spacers
the rims (wheels) on our wranglers are center supported, i think moving to spacers would make them stud supported (not sure if my terminology is correct, but hope you understand what i mean) - maybe that's where the difference is and maybe there are spacers that use center support, dunno (never used spacers myself)
Well most aftermarket wheels are lug-centric. Meaning they are centered and supported by the lugs. Hub-centric wheels sit against the axle flange and are centered and supported by that.
Optimally, you'd want to extend the lugs then have spacers that slide into the longer lugs. This is how it's done on race cars as well as sports cars like the Porsche. The adapter style spacers are usually a minimum of 1.5" and are bolted to the axle flange then the wheels are bolted with a second set of lugs to the adapter. These aren't really recommended for heavy use as the adapter transmits torque to the wheels and are only as strong as the material used to make the adapter. They can also loosen from the axle but be tight at the wheel so you would want to check them more often which would require removing the wheel.
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There's nothing wrong with spacers when properly installed, I've ran them for several years.
what brand spacer do you use? When running an 8.8, is the height increase in the rear noticable enough to actually require a spacer to level it out. Im assuming we are talking about a body spacer up front.
Im only thinking of changing out the rear axle and keep the dana 30 up front. I think the 30 can hold up to the 33s even if i put in a locker. Since i want to keep this as my daily driver im gonna keep the regear under 4.88 so i think ill be ok with just a rear axle upgrade and 33s.
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what brand spacer do you use? When running an 8.8, is the height increase in the rear noticable enough to actually require a spacer to level it out. Im assuming we are talking about a body spacer up front.
he's talking about wheel spacers (to make the axle wider so it matches the width of the front axle).
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he's talking about wheel spacers (to make the axle wider so it matches the width of the front axle).
yes wheel spacers. like spidetrack spacers etc...
if i am going to put in a more narrow axle i figure i will need spacers to push the wheels back out again.
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what brand spacer do you use?
I use a generic set I picked up used, there's no brand name and they're not anodized like the Spidertrax nor are they hub-centric. I used loctite on the inside lugs and haven't had a problem wheeling it hard with my 36" TSL's. Properly installed, they're no different than wheels with 1.25" less backspacing.
The 8.8 is has approx .5" larger diameter axletubes, so depending on any difference in brackets, you're only looking at about .25" height difference over stock. You can always level the front out with a pair of stock coil isolators at about .5".
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I'll soon have Isuzu d44's on both my Jeeps, getting ready to install one in my MJ when the 4.3L goes in.
is there any way to tell the gearing on those isuzu/honda d44s without popping the cover and counting? I've read many of them came with 4.56 gears, which is the gearing id like to get to. would save some $$ to get the rear end already geared to what i want.
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Never heard of them with 4.56 gears, only 4.10 and 4.30. Don't know if they have diff cover tags or not.
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is there any way to tell the gearing on those isuzu/honda d44s without popping the cover and counting? I've read many of them came with 4.56 gears, which is the gearing id like to get to. would save some $$ to get the rear end already geared to what i want.
There should be a Diff Tag. I think they may have used 4:10 & 4.30. I'm not sure if they used lower in the D44 but they did in the other axles. There is the Isuzu 10 Bolt and 12 Bolt. These are supposedly available in 4.10, 4.30, 4.56 and 4.77.