4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: stan98tj on May 03, 2011, 07:06:42 PM
-
OK, my gf is offering me a winch for my upcoming birthday-the price cap being $1000.
I've done some research and I have a few that I've come across that I'd like to get opinions about to help me make my decision.
What i want: 9500lb or above pull strength, synthetic line (i would prefer, but it doesnt have to be) and id like to keep the weight of the winch down.
My first choice: Rough Country RS12000S: synthetic line, 12000lb pull, 70lb winch, these are rebadged milemarkers. comes to $549
http://www.roughcountry.com/winches/electric-winch_rs12000s.html (http://www.roughcountry.com/winches/electric-winch_rs12000s.html)
My second choice: Warn VR10000. $579. steel cable, 10,000lb pull, these winches have different motors and electronics from the M series warns. they are cheaper than the m-series. they weigh 89lbs. http://www.quadratec.com/products/92136_0101_07.htm (http://www.quadratec.com/products/92136_0101_07.htm)
My third choice: Superwinch EPi9.0S- at $874 it's the most expensive i've listed. it is a 9,000lb winch (so a bit shy of what i wanted) but it comes with synthetic line. it also sports a submersible solenoid. http://www.quadratec.com/products/92140_009_07.htm (http://www.quadratec.com/products/92140_009_07.htm)
PLease dont turn this thread into a Warn is better than everything thread as every other forum has (esp when ppl inquire about the rough country winch) i would like honest opinions. Also if you know of any good winch that fits the criteria that i listed above please let me know. Of course quality is something im concerned with. I wanted the RC winch bec of the synthetic rope and the 12000lb power. im unsure of the quality though.
-
Personally, I'd look for a used Warn for well under $1000. 8274's can be had for around $350-500 in good working shape.
I'm not sold on contactors over solenoids. Solenoids are cheap and you can find replacements just about anywhere. Contactor relays are smaller and aren't as robust. The motors are probably similar to the old ones they used to use before everything went 4.3HP. Warn has evens started using contactors on their new M8000 as well as the XD9000 to help keep cost down. I have also noticed they switched from the nice brake handle to a dial like on the old Tabors. Again, I'm sure it's to cut cost. From what Warn say's they assemble most of their winches in the US. Parts are sourced globally but really what isn't anymore. Still they have a higher standard of QC. The VR is their value line of winches.
Rough Country is or was a suspension company. Now they have broadened their wares. They are competing with Smittybilt which is now owned by Transamerican Auto parts. The niche they are filling is the gap Steel Horse once held. These winches are made in China. There are factories that make them and a company like Smittybily, Milemarker or Rough Country selects what they want and they sell them under their own name. QC is usually done with batch samples and not with every winch.
Superwinch is more popular in the UK then they are in the US. They have always been quiet. I've bever heard of any complaining about their winches. They never got into the high-speed game and continued to make their winches like how Ramsey adn Warn did in the 80's. I always liked their Mega winches but they cost more.
I would be hesitant buying a value winch with a synthetic rope. Typically synthetic ropes are more expensive then steel cables so you have to wonder where they're cutting costs from. Ropes are nice but really the majority of people are still using steel cables. Unless you're using it a lot, it's just going to rot on the spool.
Here's what I'd choose from. These are all Shipped prices.
- Warn M8000 - $539 - http://www.amazon.com/WARN-26502-M8000-8000-lb-Winch/dp/B000182DYM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304475973&sr=8-1
- Tabor 9000 - $582.77 - http://www.amazon.com/WARN-900560-Tabor-9000-lb-Winch/dp/B000OV6L2Q/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1304475973&sr=8-12
- Superwinch EPi9 - $614.99 - http://www.amazon.com/Superwinch-09034-EPi9-0-Master-Winch/dp/B00023S354/ref=sr_1_40?ie=UTF8&qid=1304476121&sr=8-40
- Warn XD9000 - $886.95 - http://www.amazon.com/WARN-28500-XD9000-9000-lb-Winch/dp/B0002Z9SU6/ref=sr_1_39?ie=UTF8&qid=1304476121&sr=8-39
-
With a price limit of $1000 I'd go with the Warn XD9000, it is a good solid winch.
Also, putting weight over the front clearly improved the wheeling capability of my YJ, allowing it to climb better. I think more weight on the front can be a good thing.
-
I would be hesitant buying a value winch with a synthetic rope. Typically synthetic ropes are more expensive then steel cables so you have to wonder where they're cutting costs from. Ropes are nice but really the majority of people are still using steel cables. Unless you're using it a lot, it's just going to rot on the spool.
Here's what I'd choose from. These are all Shipped prices.
- Warn M8000 - $539 - http://www.amazon.com/WARN-26502-M8000-8000-lb-Winch/dp/B000182DYM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304475973&sr=8-1
- Tabor 9000 - $582.77 - http://www.amazon.com/WARN-900560-Tabor-9000-lb-Winch/dp/B000OV6L2Q/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1304475973&sr=8-12
- Superwinch EPi9 - $614.99 - http://www.amazon.com/Superwinch-09034-EPi9-0-Master-Winch/dp/B00023S354/ref=sr_1_40?ie=UTF8&qid=1304476121&sr=8-40
- Warn XD9000 - $886.95 - http://www.amazon.com/WARN-28500-XD9000-9000-lb-Winch/dp/B0002Z9SU6/ref=sr_1_39?ie=UTF8&qid=1304476121&sr=8-39
I didnt think about the synth line rotting. I figured they would be coated to keep them from doing so. we run synth lines on pretty much every ship ive worked on and they are almost always wet, but we do use them more frequently than i would use the winch. In that respect (infrequent use) would a steel line last a long time and not become deformed on the drum? Also, i have my mind set on 9500lb and above pulling power, bec you never know who u are wheeling with and a powerful winch would have an easier time pulling you out and therefor not strain the motor as much. Also, when you add mud, tires, and an angle the forces increase quickly.
-
The VR is their value line of winches.
Would that make it less reliable? cheap? Im interested because it is a WARN and has a 10k pulling capacity. But i dont want crap. On that note ive begun looking at smittybuilt. I read a JP article where they did a budget winch shootout and the smitty came out close to the top, i also have a friend who runs one and likes it (though admits he prob should have saved for better).
-
its not so much that the line rots. as the uv rays deteroiate it, putting a cover on the winch will help keep it protected.
-
I didnt think about the synth line rotting. I figured they would be coated to keep them from doing so. we run synth lines on pretty much every ship ive worked on and they are almost always wet, but we do use them more frequently than i would use the winch. In that respect (infrequent use) would a steel line last a long time and not become deformed on the drum? Also, i have my mind set on 9500lb and above pulling power, bec you never know who u are wheeling with and a powerful winch would have an easier time pulling you out and therefor not strain the motor as much. Also, when you add mud, tires, and an angle the forces increase quickly.
Synthetic ropes have some UV protectant but that doesn't last forever. Also Synthetic ropes don't like heat which typically happens when you run your winch. The other things to consider have to do with abrasion. If you're winching over rocks you have to make sure you protect the line. If you're going to neglect the winch then go with a cable. Once it's properly wrapped, you don't really have to do much with them and you'll be saving yourself a couple hundred which you can use to get some winch accessories.
The general rule of thumb for a winch is to go 1.5x the weight of the vehicle. So for a Jeep, that's 3000lbs. It would require a 8000lbs winch. Keep in mind that this is the max at the bottom spool and is reduced with each additional layer of wrap. So if you have 150' of line you'll need to use all of it. If you can't use all of it you can always use a pulley. This can almost double the winch capacity. Really though 90% of the time you're not going to be using the full strength of the winch. Just a small tug is usually enough for you to get unstuck.
You'll also be paying a premium for a quality 9500 winch. The 9500's are typically sold to those who need the faster draw speeds but don't want the additional weight of a 10,000 winch. Most 10,000 winches are really for utility use and not recreation. They are big and heavy. 8000-9000lbs is pretty standard for a Jeep. Back in the day, it was 6000-8000lbs but then Jeeps were lighter.
-
Would that make it less reliable? cheap? Im interested because it is a WARN and has a 10k pulling capacity. But i dont want crap. On that note ive begun looking at smittybuilt. I read a JP article where they did a budget winch shootout and the smitty came out close to the top, i also have a friend who runs one and likes it (though admits he prob should have saved for better).
Like I said before, it really comes down to QC. Although with Warn's use VR line up, I'd be more inclined to get one of those then a 100% Chinese made winch with little to no QC. But if your budget is $1000, you can buy a quality winch that will last a lifetime and still have pocket change. I'm move to Warn's M or XD series as they are well within your budget. The Tabor line was their value line and did cut costs but it was also still a very good winch. More like an old Warn from the early 90's, before everyone went high-speed low drag. Want brought the Tabor line into the US market because they were getting undercut by all of the Chinese made winches. It's a big market as there is now really no reason to be without a winch anymore. Although I'm sure many buy a winch now because it's cool rather then for any practical reason. Warn's aren't indestructible but they are quality winches. Guy's who use their winches a lot don't skimp otherwise, you'd see more brands of winches on work trucks and competition buggies.
Consider this; when you look on Cragslist you'll probably see a few 20-30 years old Warn's that still work 100%.
-
the reason im firm on at LEAST 9500lbs is bec although i understand that an 8000lb winch is more than capable of pulling me out i've been in a situation where a 10000lb winch had trouble pulling me and overheated. Also, i don't only offroad with ppl who use Jeeps, so id like to be able to pull out friends as well.
I dont want to buy a used winch. Warn is running an 80 dollar rebate, so that means i can afford an XD9000..however, that is 500lbs less capacity than my minimum and costs 500 dollars more than the VR. My question would be why wouldnt i want a VR? I asked a quadratec rep to find out for me how well sealed the electronics are on the VR line and if it has a auto thermo cutoff switch. Im waiting on a response.
I also noticed, no one here is telling me to spend any dime on that Rough Country winch, so i guess im not leaning towards that anymore.
-
the reason im firm on at LEAST 9500lbs is bec although i understand that an 8000lb winch is more than capable of pulling me out i've been in a situation where a 10000lb winch had trouble pulling me and overheated. Also, i don't only offroad with ppl who use Jeeps, so id like to be able to pull out friends as well.
I dont want to buy a used winch. Warn is running an 80 dollar rebate, so that means i can afford an XD9000..however, that is 500lbs less capacity than my minimum and costs 500 dollars more than the VR. My question would be why wouldnt i want a VR? I asked a quadratec rep to find out for me how well sealed the electronics are on the VR line and if it has a auto thermo cutoff switch. Im waiting on a response.
I also noticed, no one here is telling me to spend any dime on that Rough Country winch, so i guess im not leaning towards that anymore.
I don't think water is going to be a big issue. You can run an old warn with the solenoids submerged and still have the winch run. Solenoids are pretty low tech and because of that are more robust. The VR and some of the new M and I think even the XD use Contactor Relays which is what all of the no-name Chinese winches use. Instead of filling the box with solenoids they use a small and sometimes undersized relay. The problem with these is that there is only one relay under the oversized cover. If a solenoid goes bad you can always rewire the solenoids to get you going. Instead of asking Qtech, why don't you talk to Warn. They have one of the best Customer Service in the industry.
If you're stalling a 10,000lbs winch then you're really stuck and I doubt 500lbs or even 1000lbs is going to make that much if a difference. You're more then likely looking at a multi-winch recovery or something that weighs in at 1-2T and diesel powered. You have to also consider the mounts and the frame as you can seriously tweak them if you don't winch properly.
As for used, I'd be looking for a 8274. It's one winch, I wouldn't not be afraid of being old.
-
i think im gonna call warn as jeffy says.
the irony in all this is that qtech reccomends warn, good searches result in ppl advising warn...but i have a couple buddies with smittybuilts who do just fine. JP mag even liked it when they tested it. I still want the quality though.
-
after a chat with Warn, i think i'm leaning towards the VR line. I was thinking of getting the XD9000, with the 80 dollar rebate that would bring me under $1000. After my talk with warn they pretty much told me that was a serious duty winch almost at the competition level. overkill for what i need. In the 4 yrs ive owned the jeep, ive been winched twice..every other time ive gotten out with tow straps. Friends who have gone with me have not been so lucky and have had to even use a tow truck to get out. I go wheeling about once a month (maybe more now that i will have the winch) and i haven't been stuck often. I need something that will be reliable in the occasional use. THe XD boasts fast line speed and other bells and whistles that i dont really need..and its not a 10k winch. As long as this VR winch is better than a Smittybuilt i think it will be a safe bet. At least thats where im leaning.
-
It's a good choice. You won't go wrong with a Warn.
I just checked the Warn page and it seems the VR line uses solenoids but the new M8000 and XD9000 now use contactors (XD9000i is still using solenoids).
-
There is no doubt that Warn is the best. I choose to get a 9000 lb. Superwinch epi 9.0 with a 125 ft wire rope, because I felt like it was a better value. $605 with free shipping from 4x4groupbuy.
http://www.4x4groupbuy.com/store/superwinch-epi90-12vdc-9000lbs-recovery-winch-p-5368.html
Read about this torture test from Moab Jeeper:
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/general/listing.cfm?articleID=353
-
There is no doubt that Warn is the best. I choose to get a 9000 lb. Superwinch epi 9.0 with a 125 ft wire rope, because I felt like it was a better value. $605 with free shipping from 4x4groupbuy.
http://www.4x4groupbuy.com/store/superwinch-epi90-12vdc-9000lbs-recovery-winch-p-5368.html
Read about this torture test from Moab Jeeper:
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/general/listing.cfm?articleID=353
superwinch has a great reputation. they ran them on most (if not all) the land rovers during the Camel Trophy series...and they def got abused.
-
If you are serious about winching and want decent line speed, it's either a Warn or a Super winch the Warn 8000 or 9000 winches are good and take a lot of abuse same goes for the EPI 9500 Super Winch, I have seen both of those used and abused over and over. Either one will serve your needs for a very long time to come. Anything else will probably do just in a terribly slow fashion.
-
after a chat with Warn, i think i'm leaning towards the VR line. I was thinking of getting the XD9000, with the 80 dollar rebate that would bring me under $1000. After my talk with warn they pretty much told me that was a serious duty winch almost at the competition level. overkill for what i need. In the 4 yrs ive owned the jeep, ive been winched twice..every other time ive gotten out with tow straps. Friends who have gone with me have not been so lucky and have had to even use a tow truck to get out. I go wheeling about once a month (maybe more now that i will have the winch) and i haven't been stuck often. I need something that will be reliable in the occasional use. THe XD boasts fast line speed and other bells and whistles that i dont really need..and its not a 10k winch. As long as this VR winch is better than a Smittybuilt i think it will be a safe bet. At least thats where im leaning.
Free shipping + $80 rebate
http://www.amazon.com/WARN-86255-VR10000-000-Winch/dp/B004UJ2ZA0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1304548045&sr=8-2
-
Free shipping + $80 rebate
http://www.amazon.com/WARN-86255-VR10000-000-Winch/dp/B004UJ2ZA0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1304548045&sr=8-2
yup warn is running the $80 rebate.
it's going to come down between the Warn VR10000 and the superwinch epi9.0.
The VR is new, and is as the warn rep put it "value winch." but it has the 10000lb capacity that i want.
Superwinch sports a submersible solenoid (may hold up to weather better), lower amp draws, also the drum is set up better to accept synth line as it doesnt heat up. But, it's 9000lb capacity and i wanted at least 9500. BUT, is this particular winch BETTER than the VR given the VR is the "value" brand?
also, line speed doesnt matter much, as a matter of fact the VR has half the speed the warn M series has.
-
yup warn is running the $80 rebate.
it's going to come down between the Warn VR10000 and the superwinch epi9.0.
The VR is new, and is as the warn rep put it "value winch." but it has the 10000lb capacity that i want.
Superwinch sports a submersible solenoid (may hold up to weather better), lower amp draws, also the drum is set up better to accept synth line as it doesnt heat up. But, it's 9000lb capacity and i wanted at least 9500. BUT, is this particular winch BETTER than the VR given the VR is the "value" brand?
also, line speed doesnt matter much, as a matter of fact the VR has half the speed the warn M series has.
I doubt it matters. Submersible solenoids don't really mean much. Like I said before solenoids are robust and can and do work underwater. I'd choose Warn though as I have dealt with them many times over the years with Customer Service issues/questions and they have never let me down.
The line speeds don't mean that much to most people. The M and XD series have the newer 4.3/4.5HP motors. The Tabor used the 2.x motors from the 80's. Actually, I'm not sure what they are actually rated now as both Ramsey and Warn changed how they rated motors so they could boost their numbers artificially. I'm sure the VR's are using the older motors as well since they're focusing on price rather then hyping line speed.
-
got this in the email yesterday with h/f cupons, anyone used one of these
http://www.harborfreight.com/12000-lb-electric-winch-with-automatic-brake-68142.html
it's $599 on sale for $549 but sometimes they give out 20% off coupons which would bring it to about $480. Don't have any experience with them though so not sure what's the quality.
6HP motor
16.4 ft/min at 0 lbs (low compared to others)
14 ft/min at 2000 lbs (and from here seems the same as the superwinch ones)
5 ft/min at 12000 lbs
3/8 galvanized steel 100' cable
duty cycle sucks at 5% at max load (i wonder what others are listed at).
-
got this in the email yesterday with h/f cupons, anyone used one of these
http://www.harborfreight.com/12000-lb-electric-winch-with-automatic-brake-68142.html
it's $599 on sale for $549 but sometimes they give out 20% off coupons which would bring it to about $480. Don't have any experience with them though so not sure what's the quality.
6HP motor
16.4 ft/min at 0 lbs (low compared to others)
14 ft/min at 2000 lbs (and from here seems the same as the superwinch ones)
5 ft/min at 12000 lbs
3/8 galvanized steel 100' cable
duty cycle sucks at 5% at max load (i wonder what others are listed at).
Another Chinese made winch. Looks like what used to be th3 T-Rex that was marketed from Australia but was in fact from China. Can't see spending $549 when you can get a Warn VR, Tabor or M8000.
-
Another Chinese made winch. Looks like what used to be th3 T-Rex that was marketed from Australia but was in fact from China. Can't see spending $549 when you can get a Warn VR, Tabor or M8000.
def made in China, no doubt about it (harborfreight). are the value ones from warn made in US? (just out of curiosity, not saying one way or the other).
what's the duty cycle on the warns, 5% on the h/f one seems low to me although it is a 6HP motor but if you use it for 45 seconds you need to let it rest for 14 minutes or something like that (according to the manual).
-
def made in China, no doubt about it (harborfreight). are the value ones from warn made in US? (just out of curiosity, not saying one way or the other).
what's the duty cycle on the warns, 5% on the h/f one seems low to me although it is a 6HP motor but if you use it for 45 seconds you need to let it rest for 14 minutes or something like that (according to the manual).
They are assembled in the US but parts are worldwide.
Not sure on the duty cycle.
-
i went with the 10000lb Warn. i bought an RC plate cause it was a good price and i THINK it will allow me to retain my grill guard which uses the holes where the TJs above bumper hooks went (my hooks are welded to the frame). If it doesnt allow me to retain my grill guard, i suppose ill be shopping for a new bumper such as the ARB winch bumper, which will negate the need for a winch plate...hence the reason for the affordable plate.
-
i went with the 10000lb Warn. i bought an RC plate cause it was a good price and i THINK it will allow me to retain my grill guard which uses the holes where the TJs above bumper hooks went (my hooks are welded to the frame). If it doesnt allow me to retain my grill guard, i suppose ill be shopping for a new bumper such as the ARB winch bumper, which will negate the need for a winch plate...hence the reason for the affordable plate.
Why not cut your tow hooks off? It's not really recommended to weld tow hooks on anyway.
-
Why not cut your tow hooks off? It's not really recommended to weld tow hooks on anyway.
i dont need to cut the tow hooks off. they are welded under the bumper, to the frame. the welds are pretty beefy, im not concerned with them. The hooks that mount from the factory are mounted above (on top) of the bumper and use the 2(per hook) holes in the bumper. This is where my grill guard is mounted and i believe the winch plate also will use these...but im hoping i will still be able to keep my brush guard..RC says they provide longer bolts.
-
couldnt keep my brush guard AND i LOST 1/4" of clearance. My front springs are so mushy feeling, slightest weight has the bumper plunging. Im gonna call RC and see if they advise switching to the 6cyl springs. They originally advised running a larger coil spacer, but i am already running a 3/4" spacer on there. Im afraid that if i run a larger spacer,although it may lift up the jeep and level it, the added compression on the coil spring will result in poorer performance. Im planning on running a 1" body lift to get a little better clearance for my 33s.
-
superwinch has a great reputation. they ran them on most (if not all) the land rovers during the Camel Trophy series...and they def got abused.
I abuse mine often, and it has always pulled me out...
One other note on synthetic line; if you use it in mud, mud will get between the strains, and will pretty much act as a saw in the long term. I have seen 2 of them fail so far because they were not cleaned up after usage in the mud. I have yet to see a cable one break (call me lucky, I guess, as I DO NOT want to be around when one of those breaks!), but then again, the synthetic were not dangerous at all when the broke (it simply dropped to the floor, and the rig got pulled back into the mud). Of course, if you were going up a ledge or something, I am sure it woul dbe no fun to have that one break!
couldnt keep my brush guard AND i LOST 1/4" of clearance. My front springs are so mushy feeling, slightest weight has the bumper plunging. Im gonna call RC and see if they advise switching to the 6cyl springs. They originally advised running a larger coil spacer, but i am already running a 3/4" spacer on there. Im afraid that if i run a larger spacer,although it may lift up the jeep and level it, the added compression on the coil spring will result in poorer performance. Im planning on running a 1" body lift to get a little better clearance for my 33s.
I would go to the 6 cyl springs; that would compensate for the increase eight...
-
this is what it looks like now with winch and body lift. You can spot the gap between rock rail and tub now. When i get home in Oct im gonna have to fix the t-case shifting issue.
(http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/domeslacker/new%20lift/DSCF5022.jpg)
the gap...and no the rake isnt that bad, the parking spot is inclined upwards towards the curb.
(http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/domeslacker/new%20lift/DSCF5018.jpg)
(http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/domeslacker/new%20lift/DSCF5017.jpg)