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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Saggy on June 01, 2011, 06:49:57 AM
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Gentlemen, (and ladies if you're out there!)
I have coolant dripping out the back side of my engine and I can't...for the life of me...figure out where it is coming from.
It looks like it is running along the channel in the top of the oil pan on the passenger side and dripping down the front transmission plate (when it gets to the back of the pan). With that said, there is a not insignificant amount dripping directly underneath the clutch plate.
I have added dye and pressurized the system. That helped identify a small leak out of the lower heater core hose which I fixed along with a couple of other drips from system hoses. I don't think any of those would have actually leaked under normal conditions. I had it pressurized to 16psi...the max cap load...so I think that forced the hoses to leak.
I have also concluded (I think!) that it is not coming from the top side. Freeze plugs look good. What I can see of the head gasket looks good.
What am I missing?! I have been around everything I can think of with UV light and mirror with the system under pressure. I can't find anything!
Thanks in advance for your help. This forum is awesome. I have learned so much from you guys.
I forgot to add...rig is a '95 4 banger.
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is there a freeze plug on the cyl head in that area?
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Thanks for the response.
There is a freeze plug on the back of the head. It is dry. The other three plugs are dry too.
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How about the overflow bottle, could it be dripping onto there? That is a part of the system that would not get pressurized in the test.
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I went around the bottle with the UV light and didn't see any leaks. Thanks for the idea though.
By the way, I converted to an electric fan so I have my fan shroud removed. I have pretty good visibility to the entire front side and both passenger and driver side of the engine. I can't see any coolant dripping down the block. The ONLY place I see it is when it drips down the front side of the tranny and just behind the oil pan. And I can only see it there when laying underneath and looking up.
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Thanks for the response.
There is a freeze plug on the back of the head. It is dry. The other three plugs are dry too.
is that UV die you used? if yes you should be able to wipe/wash the area and see the leak afterwards (if it's a crack on the block or head).
there is also a drain plug somewhere on the block, can't remember where it is exacly, i have a core in the garage i can have a look at.
do you have some pictures of where you see the coolant? would help to come up with ideas of what this can be.
-- you already posted answers to the above
so based on your last post, is it possible that the coolant is carried over the oil pan? i'm thinking of a drip from the front rather in that case. And another thing, are you sure it's coolant since you can't find any leaks with the UV light?
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Hmm...forum won't let me post pics. Is there a minimum post threshold before pics can be posted?
The leak is coming from the left (passenger) side in the pic I took on the south-east side of the starter (on the wall where the starter is bolted to). It could definitely be coming from the front (although I can't see it) and running along the top of the pan. I just can't think of where else to look. Can I email you the pic? Wish I could post it. Forum says 'the upload folder is full'.
The dye is UV. I should clarify...the UV light makes this liquid glow and the pressure gauge on the radiator pressure tester dropped from 15psi to 10psi overnight...and kicked a bunch of this liquid on the ground. I am certain it is coolant.
Can you describe where the drain on the block is? I didn't know that existed!
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Hmm...forum won't let me post pics. Is there a minimum post threshold before pics can be posted?
The leak is coming from the left (passenger) side in the pic I took on the south-east side of the starter (on the wall where the starter is bolted to). It could definitely be coming from the front (although I can't see it) and running along the top of the pan. I just can't think of where else to look. Can I email you the pic? Wish I could post it. Forum says 'the upload folder is full'.
The dye is UV. I should clarify...the UV light makes this liquid glow and the pressure gauge on the radiator pressure tester dropped from 15psi to 10psi overnight...and kicked a bunch of this liquid on the ground. I'm am certain it is coolant.
Can you describe where the drain on the block is? I didn't know that existed!
i'll look when i get home and let you know where the drain is (later today) - i'll check the FSM to see if i find a reference for it as well
The pictures posting is done thru a hosting site like photobucket.com or imageshack. Then you use the tags for forums generated on these sites and just copy/paste those links in your post, that way they appear as being uploaded and are shown in your post.
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Ahh.
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5427/20110601jeep0003.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/20110601jeep0003.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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Let me know if a different angle would help.
In the pic above, the only coolant drip I can see actively leaking under pressure comes from a crease on the top of the oil pan at the bottom-left (in this picture) side...right next to and above the starter. So I can watch it drip from here but I can't locate the leak anywhere from the head gasket up...even with the lights out searching around with a UV light.
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So...I found the following in the FSM. I took a look at that plug on the block and it looks dry. Is this the plug you were referring to?
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6412/a9r201a.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/89/a9r201a.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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Sounds like you need to drop the oil pan to see exactly from where it is leaking.
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That's what I'm afraid of. Thanks for the input guys. I think I'm going to hang around here for a couple more days to see if anyone can come up with some more ideas. If not...then I guess it's off with the pan.
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So...I had an idea. I raised the back end up as high as I could and repressurized to see if I could cause it to drip from somewhere else. Will post what I find.
Alright...this picture sucks, but I think it will get the idea across. With the back end raised it is more obviously coming from right in the middle of where the transmission couples to the engine. Also, when I raised the rear a bunch of fluid spilled out like it was pooled up there.
(http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/9306/20110601jeep00012.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/848/20110601jeep00012.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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ok, the drain plug is on the driver's side of the block towards the rear.
what i see in the picture is probably coming from under the bellhousing (just by looking at the pic), i'm not 100% on it though but you might be able to see if there is any coolant behind the flywheel thru the crankshaft position sensor. You could also take the inspection cover off and see if the coolant is dripping on the inside of it but again it won't be proof of where it comes from. I am trying to find a pic of the block without the flywheel to look at - just found one in the FSM, i think there is a freeze plug behind the bellhousing - might be coming from there
EDIT: Look at 95xj_9.pdf (Engines chapter) page 9-50 (page 50 of the document) Fig 11 - there is a cam plug, an oil galley plug and by the looks of it a freeze plug.
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That freeze plug in the fsm looks like the 4th one...on the back of the engine facing the firewall. So far as I can tell it is not leaking. I have put a mirror right up on it with the black light and regular light. Can't see a leak...but I can't get my real eyeballs right up to it to be certain.
I'll see if I can figure out how to look behind the flywheel through the cps. I didn't know about that trick! ??? When you say the inspection cover...are you referring to a cover on the tranny?
Thanks for sticking with me. This has been going on for the better part of a year.
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That freeze plug in the fsm looks like the 4th one...on the back of the engine facing the firewall. So far as I can tell it is not leaking. I have put a mirror right up on it with the black light and regular light. Can't see a leak...but I can't get my real eyeballs right up to it to be certain.
I'll see if I can figure out how to look behind the flywheel through the cps. I didn't know about that trick! ??? When you say the inspection cover...are you referring to a cover on the tranny?
Thanks for sticking with me. This has been going on for the better part of a year.
yes, the bellhousing inspection cover, the stamped piece of sheetmetal you took pictures of.
the plug i am referring to is the one in the red square below, that is behind the bellhousing so you can't see it (in this picture the block is upside down, you can see the bellhousing mounting bolts being on the outside of that area so the bellhousing would cover it. It would be behind the flywheel).
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/block_rear.jpg)
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I'm with you. So I took the CPS out. I can't see any coolant in there with the UV or flashlight.
Is my next step to take the inspection cover off? If so, it looks like I have to remove the starter and six other bolts to pull the cover. Does that sound right?
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I'm with you. So I took the CPS out. I can't see any coolant in there with the UV or flashlight.
Is my next step to take the inspection cover off? If so, it looks like I have to remove the starter and six other bolts to pull the cover. Does that sound right?
it sounds right but it also sounds like there's no need to do that anymore, I think you're at the point where you need to pull the transmission and see what's happening there if you see coolant on the block. It sucks but can't see any way around it if the leak is coming from there.
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Well. Crap.
Ok. I'll let you know what I find. Probably won't get a chance to do it till the weekend.
How long should it take (measured in beers) to pull?
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Well. Crap.
Ok. I'll let you know what I find. Probably won't get a chance to do it till the weekend.
How long should it take (measured in beers) to pull?
depends if you elevate the Jeep of just do it on jackstands. Make sure that if you take the t-case out separately you drain the transmission and t-case first or you'll spill oil/fluid all over the place. if you have a transmission floor jack (or adapter) you could just slide it back together with the t-case, i would still drain at least the t-case if you don't have an SYE, if you do then there's no need if you keep them together. You'd still need to remove the skid, shifters, driveshafts, 4wd vac lines, speed sensor wiring, reverse light switch wiring, vent lines (make sure they don't get stuck to rip/crack). you can get away without removing the starter but make sure you align the inspection cover when you slide the transmission back on (don't ask how i know, same for the oil spill).
if you have everything ready can be done in a few hours, if you need to walk around could be couple of days. Not sure if you need to take the flywheel off or not, if you do then you'll need a clutch centering shaft, don't try to eyeball it or you'll be inventing new swear words (you probably know that already but just making sure).
oh, and when you drain the t-case use the drain plug and not the chain tensioner plug (the drain plug is somewhere on the opposite side of the front output yoke if i remember correctly).
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hang on a second, i somehow thought you said you CAN see coolant thru the cps opening (i obviously misread that) - if you cannot see coolant thru there (after re-reading your post that seems to be the case) then it is worth taking the inspection cover off, so i take back what i said about pulling the transmission.
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another thought, if you have a hoist or access to one might be easier to just slide the engine forward rather than taking the transmission off (since it's a 4 banger there's plenty of room up front if you tale the radiator fan shroud off).
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Good idea on moving the engine forward. Sorry...I disappeared for a couple days there. I think I'm going to pull the inspection cover tonight or tomorrow if I can find the time. I'll report back what I find.
I'm thinking it almost has to be the freeze plug you circled in that diagram at this point. Sucks that the only way to see that is to separate the engine and tranny. Anything else I should look at if I have to pull the engine?...since it will be out anyways...
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If you know that's the problem though I'd probably just drop the transmission and transfer case to get it out of the way. 6" isn't a whole lot of room to work with and I think it's probably going to be just as time consuming.
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Alright, guys. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I don't know when I'll get to it but I'll report back after I get it done. Hopefully within the week...but I'm sure the wife and kids will have other ideas about the timeline.
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Anyone remember this post? My wife took the kids to see their papa this weekend so I finally got around to dropping the transmission. It WAS the freeze plug behind the bell housing. Thanks for the help. I never would have known that was there without you guys pointing it out.
The good news is that the leak is fixed. I also replaced the oil freeze plug behind the bell housing because it was rusty from exposure to the coolant. New clutch went in and the new throw-out bearing is smooth. Everything went back together the way it came apart.
The bad news is the coolant is boiling out of the radiator cap now. I'll open a new post to make it easier to locate when users search for answers.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond. Glad to not have coolant covering the underside/garage floor anymore!
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glad you got it fixed :thumb: