4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Jeffy on June 11, 2007, 08:57:21 PM
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Since, this question keeps coming up in other threads lets put it all in here.
Questions like:
- Choosing a Turbo
- Mounting
- Engine Management
- Intercooling
- Bypass/Recirculation/Blow off Valves
- Timing
- Air/Fuel
- Any other Turbo related issues
PROJECTS
- Sean's Turbo Project (http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=3560.0)
- Rob's Turbo Project (http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=4115.0)
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whats the easiest and/or the most cost effective way to control the fuel?
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whats the easiest and/or the most cost effective way to control the fuel?
I'm no expert but I think that would depend on how much boot you're going to use. For light boost, many mfgs. just use larger injectors or adj. fuel pressure regulators. You can adjust the fuel level a little by getting an adjustable MAP. Some people use a dedicated 5th injector and piggyback computer that compensates for the lean condition. You could also bypass the whole OEM computer and run a custom one where you can remap everything and control timing, too.
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so on say around 6-8 lbs of boost do u think larger injectors and an adjustable map sensor work?
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I've owned & driven Turbo cars - domestic and foreign. I have no self-control and the Turbo was boosting hard all the time. Gas mileage was shi-tacular.
Wise man once said, "Power wants to be used."
If I didn't have the cash for a V8 or diesel swap +tranny and install, I'd supercharge before I'd turbocharge a 2.5. I know supercharging has a much longer track-record on Jeeps - meaning there's less chance that you'll end up beta-testing a company's supercharger, because kinks will have been worked out a while a go. And I know I'd get mugged on gas mileage - turbo or super - either way
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How about just swapping in the complete 2.4L from an SRT4 neon or caliber?
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How about just swapping in the complete 2.4L from an SRT4 neon or caliber?
You should check out Turbo TJ's introduction thread he mentioned the problems. There were enough issues that he jsut swapped the turbo onto his existing engine and even that wasn't straight forward.
http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=3092.msg23950
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Here is a can of worms that just opened :biggrin:
If you have a 2.4L get a PT TUrbo exhuast and Turbo and I will sell you the bracket but it is a DIY mod as far as the 2.5L there is 505 performance or get a universal kit and make up a header and make it work!! :wave:
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Here is a can of worms that just opened :biggrin:
If you have a 2.4L get a PT TUrbo exhuast and Turbo and I will sell you the bracket but it is a DIY mod as far as the 2.5L there is 505 performance or get a universal kit and make up a header and make it work!! :wave:
As far as I know the 505 performance is a 4.0L kit though. Will that be an issue?
"1991-1995 Turbo System
This system is for 1991-1995 Jeep with a 4.0L engine. The package includes a Garret Turbo, complete exhaust, Split second Electronic fuel management 2 bar map sensor, injectors (26-32lbs), all hoses and hardware, BOV, K&N Filter, boost guage. Must be fuel injected and no after market computer chips."
For $3450.00, I don't see them selling many. Not to mention stuff like the exhaust will have to be tossed since the manifolds won't match and neither will the head pipe. I know Avenger and Hesco are cheaper too.
From a DIY, I would suspect this could be done for much less. To keep cost down, wouldn't it be easier to mount the turbo after the stock manifold so a custom one doesn't have to be built. (any issue with that?) This is the way some other people have done it.
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Here is a can of worms that just opened :biggrin:
If you have a 2.4L get a PT TUrbo exhuast and Turbo and I will sell you the bracket but it is a DIY mod as far as the 2.5L there is 505 performance or get a universal kit and make up a header and make it work!! :wave:
As far as I know the 505 performance is a 4.0L kit though. Will that be an issue? Do you know what they use for engine management? I would think that it would be easier to mount the turbo after the stock manifold so a custom one doesn't have to be built. (any issue with that?) This is the way some other people have done it.
The problem with mounting it after your exhaust manifold is the turbo will mounted low in the engine bay not good for water crossing.
As far as engine management bigger injectors and a after market air/fuel insturment to know if you tuning is right. 505 performance might be able to make a header for the 2.5 since the 6 cylinder and 4 cylinder are kind of the same beast..
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The problem with mounting it after your exhaust manifold is the turbo will mounted low in the engine bay not good for water crossing.
As far as engine management bigger injectors and a after market air/fuel insturment to know if you tuning is right. 505 performance might be able to make a header for the 2.5 since the 6 cylinder and 4 cylinder are kind of the same beast..
I took a closer look at 505's pictures under a microscope, they mount theirs on the passenger side of engine so they don't have to change out the manifold. So the down pipe goes under the engine then back up on the passenger side but instead of going to the cat, it goes up to where the AC used to be.
There doesn't seem to be an intercooler used so it must boosting that much.
(http://shop.505performance.com/images/image146.jpg)
Found this picture, looks like theirs.
http://jeep.blogplot.com/13/img_Aug_19_2005_18_25?display=original
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The problem with mounting it after your exhaust manifold is the turbo will mounted low in the engine bay not good for water crossing.
As far as engine management bigger injectors and a after market air/fuel insturment to know if you tuning is right. 505 performance might be able to make a header for the 2.5 since the 6 cylinder and 4 cylinder are kind of the same beast..
I took a closer look at 505's pictures under a microscope, they mount theirs on the passenger side of engine so they don't have to change out the manifold. So the down pipe goes under the engine then back up on the passenger side but instead of going to the cat, it goes up to where the AC used to be.
There doesn't seem to be an intercooler used so it must boosting that much.
(http://shop.505performance.com/images/image146.jpg)
Found this picture, looks like theirs.
http://jeep.blogplot.com/13/img_Aug_19_2005_18_25?display=original
My turbo is right were the AC compressor woould go I would like it higher but that is no possible when using the stock PT exhuast manifold......I would run a intercooler no matter how much boost I run a water to air so at low speed ( no air throu the radaitor area at low speed) there is good cooling for the air charge.
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My turbo is right were the AC compressor woould go I would like it higher but that is no possible when using the stock PT exhuast manifold......I would run a intercooler no matter how much boost I run a water to air so at low speed ( no air throu the radaitor area at low speed) there is good cooling for the air charge.
Yeah, I think I'd run an intercooler too. I noticed the biggest difference between your 2.4L and the 2.5L is that the exhaust manifold is already on the passenger side. From what I understand, it's better to have the turbo sit as close to the manifold. So would it be better to make a flange that bolts to between the manifold and the down pipe. Perhaps an upturn then have it go down to get it up higher? The only consideration is the intake manifold is on the same side as the exhaust so it would have to sit lower then the intake. Heat might become an issue with them too close though. Maybe I'll take some pictures of the 2.5L to put up in this thread.
The other issue with fuel, I was reading that adjusting the MAP isn't a good idea since it will only change the length of each squirt which could mean spraying when the valve closes. So larger injectors and a vacuum controlled fuel regulator sound like a the right way without going to a piggyback system. Then use some EM to watch over that.
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My last jeep had the 2.5L The intake is not a problem becuase the turbo intake face foward so you put a filter on the other side of the engine bay then it goes to the turbo, out of the turbo throu the intercooler then into the engine. So this is not a problem.
stock 2.4L:
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/airsierra/jeepturbo001.jpg)
Turbo mod in the pics it was not completey finished so some thing changed.
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/airsierra/jeepturbo038.jpg)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/airsierra/jeepturbo035.jpg)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/airsierra/turbo.jpg)
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Your injectors fire with the valves closed all the time. It isn't a big deal. The issue with an adjustable MAP sensor is that it just jumps you up into the higher MAP bins (hense more fuel). but this means your jeep injects more fuel throughout the whole RPM bandwidth, and the stock bin probably only goes to 100kpa or so since it is N/A stock. This means there is no correction for more boost, your injectors only inject whatever the value is in that last bin reguardless. I'm running megasquirt for my fuel, i have my turbo mounted infront of the motor facing left/right instead of forward/backwards, since I was planning on putting a/c on my jeep. I dont think i will be completely my project since i think i'm going to be selling the jeep though.... I'll post some pictures of what i have accomplished so far later tonight, since i doubt i'll be making a thread now dedicated to my complete and running set-up.
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Here is an shot of the set-up as it is right now (note the steel braided oil feed/return lines are in the garage, no vacuum lines have been ran, and all of the exhaust parts are not finished).
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x312/accord387/IMGP0330.jpg)
Here is a front/overview shot, you can see how i mounted the brace to/on the engine.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x312/accord387/IMGP0331.jpg)
Here is a shot showing the exhaust going back down the passenger side of the jeep from the turbo.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x312/accord387/IMGP0333.jpg)
Here is a shot showing the Saab blackstone smic mounted infront of my jeep
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x312/accord387/IMGP0332.jpg)
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Anyone have this book or know anything about it? Seems like a pretty good deal and like its got a lot of info.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-Wrangler-Turbo-Turbocharger-Guide-2-5L-E-BOOK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34224QQihZ013QQitemZ230142208239QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
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Anyone have this book or know anything about it? Seems like a pretty good deal and like its got a lot of info.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-Wrangler-Turbo-Turbocharger-Guide-2-5L-E-BOOK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34224QQihZ013QQitemZ230142208239QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
From what I've seen, it's not much of a manual, more like a general guide.
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I remember maybe a year ago in the yahoo groups someone suggested the book maximum boost? how good is that in teaching u the basics of turboing a vehicle? because im sorta lost but it sounds very interesting.
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^ i've never actually read all of it. I've looked at some of it before in the bookstore though, and from that and what most people say i think it is a really good book. You can learn a lot through the internet also.
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I boughta book at Books-A-Million yesterday called Supercharging, Turbocharging & Nitrous Oxide Performance handbook by Earl davis and Diane Perkins-davis. Doesn't seem too bad, but I'm still not understanding all the formulas and what all I need to do to build a decent turbo setup for my engine. My goal (if possible) is 200 HP out of it. I saw where somebody mentioned 170 or so with a Garrett, and that's not bad at all, my caliber goes pretty well with 170 and its gutless CVT, much better than my Wrangler! Is it possible for 200 HP on pump gas with a turbo and/or some other mods to help it out some? I'm also needing help with actually sizing a turbo for it.
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wrangler387 has there been any progress on your turbo install? or anyone else for that matter. i was getting our 4wheelers out of the shead to get them ready for next weekend ( our duck hunting land/ woods doesn't have enough room for jeep trails :'() and saw the turbo we bought a few years back planing to put it on our cj31 with the godevil motor. but i think my dad has long forgotten about it and i thought of this thread. only thing that is making me not trying to put a turbo on my jeep is that it is tbi so hard to try to get more fuel in in. but thats where research comes into play.
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Anyone have this book or know anything about it? Seems like a pretty good deal and like its got a lot of info.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-Wrangler-Turbo-Turbocharger-Guide-2-5L-E-BOOK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34224QQihZ013QQitemZ230142208239QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
I bought the manual about a month ago for $7.50 US, and for anyone wanting to turbo the 2.5L YJ this is a perfect step by step on how to do it. If you follow the guide it shouldn't cost you allot somewhere in the area of $350. I have been accumulating all the parts I need to do it, all I have left is to buy injectors and to date I have spent $270.
For anyone wanting to turbo there Jeep and knows little about turbos this is the best help you can get especially for $7.50
I give this guide a high rating, but I did change a few things from the way the guide said to do it, but only because I am a bit of a perfectionist and didn't mind spending the extra bit of money.
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nice.. will be sweet to have another person around with a turbo 2.5l... this yet again makes me wish my jeep was 1 year newer.
How come one year newer ???
How long ago did you turbo your 2.5L ??? did you do it on your own or use a manual ???
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no i don't have a turbo.. but some other people here do... i wish my jeep was one year newer because mine is a 1990 (tbi) and in 01 they switched to the mpi. so i don't have as many options for power upgrades as the mpi2.5ls do. and its agonizing because i have a turbo siting in my shed that i cant use.
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and its agonizing because i have a turbo siting in my shed that i cant use.
What turbo do you have? And if you are willing to part with it, how much would you be asking for it?
Felipe
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i have a garret turbo from a Chrysler 2.2l k car motor. but i may be able to use it if i ever figure out what the stock injectors flow rate is so i know what injector to go up to.
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Do you know what model car I can get the turbo out of? I will be visiting the local junkyard soon... So if I can get one, i probably will!
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Chrysler's first turbocharged engine was the 1984 Turbo I. It used a Garrett T03 turbocharger with a mechanical wastegate to limit boost to 7 psi (48 kPa). For 1985, a computer-controlled wastegate was substituted which allowed 9 psi (62 kPa) of temporary overboost. Output was rated at 146 hp (109 kW) and 168 ft·lbf (228 N·m). A Mitsubishi TE04H turbo and new intake manifold were used for 1988. The engine was updated with the 2.5 L engine the next year.
* 1984 Chrysler E-Class
* 1984-1986 Chrysler Executive
* 1984-1986 Chrysler Laser
* 1984-1988 Chrysler LeBaron
* 1985-1988 Chrysler LeBaron GTS
* 1984-1987 Chrysler New Yorker
* 1988 Chrysler New Yorker Turbo
* 1984-1988 Dodge 600
* 1985-1988 Dodge Lancer
* 1984-1985 Dodge Omni GLH
* 1985-1988 Plymouth Caravelle
* 1985–1987 Dodge Charger Shelby
i don't know which actual car it came off of since my dad actually bought the turbo for his go devil motor in his cj3a but he abandoned the idea. but wll should be the same. Chrysler also made a turbo II and III for more info search wikipedia.
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Ok so do we have any more progress? I'm really curious about all this and if it is something an average jeeper might be able to look into doing.
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I am trying to decide whether to drop the money into a turbo, supercharger, or inline 6. trying to get the most power possible without jeopardizing vehicle balance with a chevy small block 305. anybody have any knowledge as to what works best? It would be ideal to drop in the small block for power, but not fuel efficiency and weight distribution. although, the 305 bolts up to one of the newer corvette manual transmissions with it being just a little on the tight side of fitting between bell housing and transfer case. so anyone with thoughts about this?
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The problem with any engine swap is the fact that you'll need not only the engine but the entire drivetrain replaced. The ax-5 will not bolt up nor will it hold up to a larger displacement engine. Axles are not far behind. It can really start to get expensive.
The cheapest route appears to be a turbo due to the fact that you can control the amount of boost (hp) you want. I have been looking into a turbo but one thing that'll make or break the decision is if I have to get a new tranny. I'm just curious if the ax-5 holds up or not.
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yeah i figured i would have to replace rest of the drive train because i'm not that lucky. i just have reservations about a turbo, i've never installed one before, and i'm doing all the work myself. with superchargers though, i've installed 3, so i'm a bit more familiar with the process. trying to figure out pros and cons of both turbo and supercharger. I know with the supercharger there's no turbo lag, but with the supercharger you cant control boost too easily
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What I've read is for the 2.5l a small turbo is best and will give about 50-70 more hp and it will pretty low boost (easier on the engine, ability to still run cheaper gas) and also because of the small turbo, turbo lag is close to nonexistent because it speeds up quickly.. Now I would just like to hear from people that have actually done it.
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I've been kicking around the idea of using a 12A turbo from a Chrysler Conquest and mounting it where the a/c compressor would be. You can find that stock turbo for $100. Then a flange and some exhaust bends. Plumbing water in and out would be easy and probably $100 in parts. Then i'd use an FMU for extra fuel under boost. I'd probably go with a Vortech type adjustable FMU so you can dial it in with a wideband. I'd run premium fuel and hope it does not rattle. Then you should'nt have to find a way to pull timing without spending a ton.
I figured it would cost $400 or so after combing Ebay for aprts. Then of course you need a welder...
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I bought that guide the guy sells on Ebay. Definitely worth the money. It is a little cheezy though. Flex pipe for hot side plumbing and PVC for the cold side. You could spend a little cash on some mandrel bends and a welder and have a pretty sweet set-up.
He uses and adjustable MAP sensor and 36# injectors. I wonder how close you could get the fuel curve with a wideband for tuning.
He recommends have the timing "professionally adjusted". Take out 2 degrees.
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I bought and read the same guide, as was noted the flex pipe is a bit "cheesy" but you have to look at the fact most people don't know how to weld or even have access to a welder. I thought that the guide is written in such a way that someone with very little mechanical ability can Turbo there YJ, for a very realistic budget. I sure most 4wheeler's are in the same situation as me when I say most of our builds done on tight budgets, and in many cases with limited ability due to us not all being mechanics or welders.
Myself I was lucky enough to be a welder/fabricator in my previous career so I will be using welded mandrel bent tube, but I do not think that anyone who has to use anything less should be looked down on.
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Wait... so the guide is for a YJ? Would everything be the same for a TJ or not?
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The guide is for a Yj, but it should be the same for a TJ. you can't have A/C either with this set-up.
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The flexpipe stuff should work fine, and I will probably put mine together this way at home, then take it to work and hard pipe all the plumbing after it is roadworthy.
I picked up a T3 garrett on Ebay for $140, and an FMU for $30. A cheapie intercooler can be had on Ebay easily for $30-$40. You do have to fabricate a mounting bracket though. He gives you an Autocad drawing of the bracket though. a metal fab shop should make it for less than $50. Misc. stuff like the pipe and bends, oil and coolant fittings and lines for the turbo should cost less than $80.
He uses large injectors with an adjustable Map sensor to add fuel. I am going to use Ford #19 injectors and an FMU. That should eliminate any off-boost driveability quirks that you may run into with big injectors and a factory computer.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqKS5VWjeys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqKS5VWjeys)
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:roflol: talk about digging yourself a hole
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How about a Turbo F-134?
http://www.youtube.com/v/6RYzeGDuE58&rel=1
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any updates on any of the setups?
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nice. hurricane with a turbo. reminds me of our go devil turbo idea that never got farther than buying the turbo.
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The guy on Ebay who sells the turbo "E-book" is making me a bracket. That is the only thing I am waiting on. It has been about a month and a half and I am getting itchy!
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I have everything I need to do the whole turbo set up except for the the oil lines, now I just have to wait for it to warm up a bit outside. I hate working in the cold if I don't have to haha :gimp:
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I never recieved the bracket or a response from the Ebay E-book guy. I sent him $60 2 months ago now. Stay away from this cat.
I made my own bracket to mount the turbo and will start more work on it today. As long as the temp is in the mid 30's i'll work on it. Otherwise it will sit. :)
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What do you guys think the best way is to add extra fuel? I plan on using an FMU with 19lb Ford injectors. I hope it will run like stock off boost, and the FMU will add extra fuel by pinching off the return line under boost.
I hear of others using larger injectors and an adjustable MAP sensor.
Since all MAP sensors have a 0-5 volt output, I wonder how well it would run with double the MAP sensor (2 bar) and something close to double the stock injectors (36#ish)
To me, the FMU seems like it would have less driveability quirks. I've built several supercharged Mustangs and the simple set-ups were always the easiest to drive.
I have also noticed something about the turbo cartridge position on the Jeeps i've seen. Most don't have the oil inlet pointing up, and the drain pointing straight down. I always thought it was a good idea to have the oil drain pointing directly down. I reclocked the cartridge and the scroll on mine to make this possible.
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What do you guys think the best way is to add extra fuel? I plan on using an FMU with 19lb Ford injectors. I hope it will run like stock off boost, and the FMU will add extra fuel by pinching off the return line under boost.
I hear of others using larger injectors and an adjustable MAP sensor.
Since all MAP sensors have a 0-5 volt output, I wonder how well it would run with double the MAP sensor (2 bar) and something close to double the stock injectors (36#ish)
To me, the FMU seems like it would have less driveability quirks. I've built several supercharged Mustangs and the simple set-ups were always the easiest to drive.
I have also noticed something about the turbo cartridge position on the Jeeps i've seen. Most don't have the oil inlet pointing up, and the drain pointing straight down. I always thought it was a good idea to have the oil drain pointing directly down. I reclocked the cartridge and the scroll on mine to make this possible.
What version of the 2.5L is this on? OBDI or OBDII? That will make a big difference in which injectors you need to use. You'll probably want to run a wide band O2 sensor as well so you can monitor the flow. You could try using a adjustable MAP sensor or changing the pressure of the fuel rail as well. Another option is what Rimmer Engineering did and run a 5th injector. Another option is to get a stand along computer to run everything and toss the stock unit. There are a bunch of different ways to get it done.
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OBDI, 1995 YJ. I don't want to get too crazy with it. I want to keep it a cheap as possible.
Where could a guy find an adjustable MAP sensor?
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OBDI, 1995 YJ. I don't want to get too crazy with it. I want to keep it a cheap as possible.
Where could a guy find an adjustable MAP sensor?
Make one or else check Turbocity.com
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Turbocity wants like $130. Any idea how to make one?
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google "how to make an adjustable map" and there should be some good info... and i think there was a thread about it hear about a year ago.
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Found it. It looks easy enough. Playing with that stuff without a wideband is kind of a crapshoot though, at least when tuning with boost anyway.
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Found it. It looks easy enough. Playing with that stuff without a wideband is kind of a crapshoot though, at least when tuning with boost anyway.
Just be carefully when making it. If you don't it will be an expensive fix. A member found out the hard way a while back.
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Turbocity wants like $130. Any idea how to make one?
I found this link online... Maybe it will help you.
http://go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoMAPsensor.htm
Felipe
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Hey Rob What size FMU did you pick up i am putting together all my parts for my Turbo-TJ im gonna run 36# injectors an FMU, debating the adjustable MAP. the turbo will be a T-25 and all the exhaust will be madrel bent and MIG welded, just trying to figure out what size FMU to pick up.
Thanks
John
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I am using a 12 to 1 FMU. That is the disc used for 19lb injectors (which I am running) on a 5.0L Mustang. With 36's you would need something like a 6 to 1.
http://www.superchargersonline.com/product_listing_2M.asp?Cat2=fmu_cal_disk
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thanks alot rob, do you think that 36# is too much, i just dont wanna starve the engine for fuel and blow it up.
thanks again
John
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I think TJ's use 24lb injectors already. With 36's and an adjustable MAP you might not even need an FMU. The only reliable way to tune with boost is with a wideband O2. You also might want more fuel pump than the stock one. I installed a 255LPh pump in mine. I think the stock pump is around 90lph.
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was the fuel pump hard to install? i am debating between the adjustable map and the FMU, i bought that book maximum boost and it recommended the FMU as one of the more reliable ways to control fuel with boost.
also how is your set up coming along, i have been debating doing this for a LONG time, but it was only until recently that i was gaining knowledge on turbos and fuel systems that i decided i could do this. im working on getting all the parts together before i start, but im pumped!
thanks for the help man! appreciate it! :beers:
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The fuel pump was a pretty easy install. It was typical of any in-tank fuel pump. I am getting pretty close with mine. I have to run coolant to the turbo, connect the drain line, wrap the hot pipes, hook up the FMU, secure all the vacuum connections, and plumb in the cold side piping. I am waiting for delivery of my Ebay intercooler. :) I'd say I have a couple hours of work left on it.
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awesome man i just picked up my turbo today, im workin on an inter cooler and an FMU, got a 190 fuel pump from my buddy for free who upgraded to a 255 i dont think ill need the 255, what do you think? once i get the lines the electric fan, some piping a BOV etc ill be well on my way to gettin the jeep BOOSTED!
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hey rob just a question on the fuel pump did you get an install kit to go with it? cause i dont have that if you did could you tell me where i could find just the install kit?
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I did not use an install kit. I used a GSS340 Walbro pump that I had lying around. It plugged right in. I had to mess with the mounting bracket in the tank a little though. No biggie at all. I picked up a strainer that fit the inlet of the pump from the auto parts store. I also think that 190 is plenty enough pump too.
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What size turbines are y'all using? The T3 is available in .63 or .48 A/R. The .48 is recommended for 1000 - 2200 cc engines, 100 to 275 hp. Since I'm only looking for 6 lbs. of boost, I'd think that the small turbine would be preferable, as it would spool up faster...
(I have to do something to blow up this 4 cyl. so that I can go to something bigger; as it stands it may outlast me...)
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Im running a T-25 off a 2nd generation Eagle Talon its is a .48 A/R it is rated for engines up to 2.2l so i figure my 2.5L will most definetally spool it really fast.
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Good. That's what I'll look for then. I'm going with the T3 because A) that's what the guy selling the pamphlet on Ebay used, & B) there are a lot of them fairly cheap on Ebay (new, even). By the way, I wrote to "the flex pipe guy", and asked if his setup would work on a TBI engine. He said yes, you'd just have to find a bigger injector. He said that the rule of thumb was 10 lbs. over stock, as a starter.
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yes someone with tbi may do this... i did some research a few months ago. and form what i found injectors from tbi chevy v8's will work in the tbi 2.5l but no garentees as i haven't tried it or heard of anyone trying it. here is the thread where i put the info http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=3563.0
you you can go with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator / make one.... to raise the flow
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I was just comparing the Chevy TBI injectors with the Jeep TBI injectors, and they are outwardly identical. It turns out that even the 454 used TBI at one time. THOSE injectors should certainly pass enough gas (so to speak...)
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That Ebay turbo guide guy charged me $60 for a bracket and never sent it. I told him not to worry about it and that i'll just take his adjustable MAP instead. He said fine, and has yet to send anything.
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Rob how are you running without using an Adjustable map sensor, cause im considering running without it, cause i wanna run like normal without being under boost, i think the FMU will do just fine.
Thanks
John
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Yet another turbo. This one is on a TBI. Not much info on his build though.
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/crslax9/P1000336.jpg)
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have anymore pics of that set up? i was just going to ask how anyone was planing on mounting a turbo with the tbi because it has different belt set up.
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have anymore pics of that set up? i was just going to ask how anyone was planing on mounting a turbo with the tbi because it has different belt set up.
Belts don't matter since it's still sitting above the alternator. Just look at Rob's build. His turbo sits on top of the alternator where the A/C unit would normally be.
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im saying that my jeep doesn't just have a nice big bracket sitting there for an ac compressor that i can mount a turbo to like he did..... i guess ill look at his pics again to see how deep of a hole i am digging. :wall:
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ok the none serpentine belt jeeps have different brackets for mounting the accessories because each one has to be adjustable to tighten/ loosen the belt.
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Ah, OK, well you'll have to make a shelf for it. Or you could mount it in front of the engine.
(http://images.jpmagazine.com/featuredvehicles/154_9911_03z+1988_jeep_yj_wrangler+engine_view.jpg)
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now that looks familiar.. ouch no power steering...
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no i don't have a turbo.. but some other people here do... i wish my jeep was one year newer because mine is a 1990 (tbi) and in 01 they switched to the mpi. so i don't have as many options for power upgrades as the mpi2.5ls do. and its agonizing because i have a turbo siting in my shed that i cant use.
You can turbo a TBI motor as well. You can keep the stock injector and use a 3 to 1 FMU. There is a guy on www.homemadeturbo.com with one.
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You can turbo a TBI motor as well. You can keep the stock injector and use a 3 to 1 FMU. There is a guy on www.homemadeturbo.com with one.
i posted that a few months ago and have later rethought of how it could work.. aka get more fuel.. "3 to 1 fmu"?... guess i need more time to look on that sight.. a quick scan proved to be fruitless.
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Why would anybody want to Turbo a 4 banger??? :weee:
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This sounds interesting but when I searched for the E-book it was no longer available, anyone know where they sell the book now?
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Give me your email and i'll send it to you. The cocknut owes me $60. :)
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Thank you to Rob for the email :wave:
Duff
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Found this thread on a 4.0L Turbo. I think he'd be better off moving the whole turbo more forward.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=658004
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Found this thread on a 4.0L Turbo. I think he'd be better off moving the whole turbo more forward.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=658004
Ya I'll say lol
Their just heading down a road that will have nothing but headaches for them in the long run.
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It looks like a pain in the but to change the cap/rotor/plugs/wires with the turbo that far back. Who knows?
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Thought I recognized this Jeep...
http://www.youtube.com/v/fvzjANwFV-w&hl=enhttp://www.youtube.com/v/G0I-O6inXs8&hl=en
http://www.youtube.com/v/h418gj827O4&hl=en
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Ya thats mine before the 4:1 Plus I'm installing larger Injectors this weekend so it should make a difference
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Ya thats mine before the 4:1 Plus I'm installing larger Injectors this weekend so it should make a difference
I was gonna say, it needs lower gears. :wall:
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I was gonna say, it needs lower gears. :wall:
You have to remeber I'm turning 37's and those vids of me stuck on the rock buring my clutch were at almost 9,500 feet in elevation
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You have to remeber I'm turning 37's and those vids of me stuck on the rock buring my clutch were at almost 9,500 feet in elevation
Excuses, excuses... ;) :thumb:
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does anyone have a complete writeup of how to do this including parts thanks i might be getting my self into something bad with this jeep lol my wallet is shrinking very rapidly lol oh well its fun :thumbsup:
keep jeepin!
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does anyone have a complete writeup of how to do this including parts thanks i might be getting my self into something bad with this jeep lol my wallet is shrinking very rapidly lol oh well its fun :thumbsup:
keep jeepin!
http://www.reno4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5362
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http://www.reno4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5362
so all you did was get a pt cruiser engine and swap it in wow thats awesome i never would have thought about that
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so all you did was get a pt cruiser engine and swap it in wow thats awesome i never would have thought about that
Nope just used the PT Turbo system if you scan to the last 5 pages of the thread you will see more info...PT engine is not exactly the same engines
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oh i see very nice
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W390zGuXN3o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVWZY5_jONU
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Has anyone had any problems with the ax5 after the turbo mod i figure that i might not be able to handle that much power
and has anyone dynoed once they did the turbo just wondering what to expect performance wise. :hitit:
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Has anyone had any problems with the ax5 after the turbo mod i figure that i might not be able to handle that much power
and has anyone dynoed once they did the turbo just wondering what to expect performance wise. :hitit:
My year came with the NV Transmission..
I'm have 5 adapter plates made right now for the turbo swap on the 2.4L 3 are spoken for so I have 2 for sale..
you can a photo of the adapter plate on my turbo thread in the 4x4 tech section of reno4x4.com
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I was thinking would it be possible to do a top mount intercooler :puzzled:
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If there is room I would think so. You would need a scoop like the Subaru WRX:)
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If there is room I would think so. You would need a scoop like the Subaru WRX:)
I dont think a scoop like that would work if this is a daily driver; Wranglers have a low pressure point in the middle of the hood, and air wants to go OUT that way, not in... And I am not sure if it will cool enough in the other direction because air from the radiator (and AC) will be getting to it (although that is not that hot when driving down the highway, it COULD be too hot for trail use).
Anyway, just my 2 cents... I dont have a turbo, so dont listen too much to what I am saying!
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Actually, IIRC from one of the many louver threads that popped up on the web several years ago. the low pressure spots are still on the sides of the engine. Mostly along the crease where the hood bumps up in the center. Most common place to see louvers is up front jsut behind the radiator support and in the back near the firewall.
Still, a top mounted intercooler isn't as efficient as the front mounted ones. If you really want to be fancy then you could go with a V mounted intercooler.
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Thanks for the input, i probably sould go for function over form but that still would be probably the sickest way to do it. I looked up the sti hood scoop and its not just a scoop there they have some sort of bellows :puzzled: probably to correct that very problem. But front mount it is the pluming just seem a little wastefull if that makes sence on the front mount piping the air all around the engine compartment.
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Actually, IIRC from one of the many louver threads that popped up on the web several years ago. the low pressure spots are still on the sides of the engine. Mostly along the crease where the hood bumps up in the center. Most common place to see louvers is up front jsut behind the radiator support and in the back near the firewall.
According to the article I read here (http://www.oman4x4.com/hoodvents.htm#theory), the low pressure points in the hood are actually in the front and along the ridge (as you mentioned). And it makes sense, because near the firewall is the intake for the heater and vent, so air actually comes in there, so it is a high-pressure point...
Anyway, I agree that regardless, the top is not the best way to put an intercooler...
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I have 2.4L turbo adapter for sale if you need one.....
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/airsierra/DSCN3456.jpg)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/airsierra/DSCN3460.jpg)
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Let's bring this back to the top...
I am hoping to compile that shopping list for this project. This is what info I gathered from Rob and Sean's threads here.
1. Your favorite turbo: .48 A/R (I am looking for an internal gated T03. I am looking for a maximum of 8 psi of boost)
2. 19 lb/hr injectors
3. 12:1 FMU
4. Intercooler
5. Some plumbing parts for the oil feed to and from the turbo
6. Intake and exhaust plumbing
7. Possible MAP issues??? (TBD)
The one thing I didn't completely follow was weather or not an adjustable map IS required for this. I read about the map clamps and the adjustable unit that Sean used. It wasn't really clear...
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I have 2.4L turbo adapter for sale if you need one.....
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/airsierra/DSCN3456.jpg)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/airsierra/DSCN3460.jpg)
I have 2.4L turbo adapter for sale if you need one.....
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/airsierra/DSCN3456.jpg)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/airsierra/DSCN3460.jpg)
Does this let you use the newer style manifold on the older engine? I tried your link to the Reno 4x4 site. I didn't have time to register this morning...
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This one http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mitsubishi-TD05-12B-turbocharger-Volvo-740-760-780_W0QQitemZ180289825288QQihZ008QQcategoryZ33742QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/8psi-V-Band-T3-T4-Turbocharger-Internal-wastegate-Clamp_W0QQitemZ110291002059QQihZ001QQcategoryZ33742QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Well I had a look at both of the turbo links, the first one is the same turbo that I am running on my set up and it works very well I really like the water cooled feature. The second one looks brand new now if that is the case that may be a good choice, however I am more partial to the water cooled turbo. I think that either of the two turbos you have picked out would work for your application, both are the rite size for you engine (from the looks of it) and both are a not too bad price.
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Clem, I thinking form the reading I have done so far, I would add the Following to the list too.
1. Boost Gage
2. Wide Band O2 sensor or a Air Fuel Meter.
3. The Split Second PSC1-002
:rtfm:
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With the PCS1-002 you have the ability to correct the fuel mixture to run without a FMU. From my experiences of using a FMU on my build I would suggest not to use one, they do work and not really that bad however they are not perfect. I found that if you were to let off the gas and then step on it again quickly the engine will back-fire, this is because for a short time the FMU sees no boost so the fuel pressure drops off and then it must react to seeing boost again.
I'm changing my set up to a larger injector and taking out the FMU, I will then just use the PCS1-002 to program proper fuel mixture across the board. This set up will run more consistent as it will not have to react to boost, it will be set up closer to a stock turbo engine.
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st.chevrolet, Well I just spent the last 3 hours on ebay looking at water cooled turbos TDO4H'S, And doing a lot of goggle search's. If you can please keep us posted on the programing of the PSC1-OO2. I have a question, Will the Three Speed Transmission hold to the turbo ??? I had it rebuilt about 2 year ago and had them put all HD parts in it. This is what I have done to the engine so far, I have put headers on it, 62MM TB Spacer, Had the TB Bored out to 62 MM. Still have the stock Air Cleaner one it. It has 104k miles one it. Hi flow muffler, And got rid of the cat.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T25-TD04-H-TURBO-CHARGER-S13-S14-S15-300ZX-TURBOCHARGER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ33742QQihZ006QQitemZ160284299871QQtcZphoto
http://www.spooledmotorsports.com/turbochargerspage.php?turbocharger=Used_Mitsubishi_TE04H_(13C)_Turbocharger
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/89-94-ECLIPSE-4G63-TD05H-16G-TURBOCHARGER-TD05-TURBO-1G_W0QQitemZ250296653391QQihZ015QQcategoryZ33742QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I think I Will get the Turbo first and the 19# injectors 2nd. Work my way up from there. And what is the difference Water Cooled and oil cooled ??? And witch one takes an inter-cooler. And as far as the plumbing it's or that's going to the muffler Shop, And have them use stainless steel on that.
One more thing, Thank you for Help and Pointers so far. Hell I need all the help I can Get :beers:
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The programing of the PSC1-002 is all done by trial and error with the use of a air to fuel ratio meter or wide band O2. By monitoring the air to fuel ratio of your own set up, you can then use your PC to write a program to the PSC1-002 adding fuel where you are lean and the opposite as needed. The PSC1-002 comes with everything you need to write your own fuel maps (minus a air to fuel monitor), it comes with Split Second's own R4 software and after reviewing the instructions programing in not a problem.
The three speed transmission should have no problem holding up to the power the little 4 bangers will make, provided they are well maintained and not abused.
I think you may need to go with a bigger injector though, especially if you do not use a FMU.
All turbos can be intercooled, the intercooler goses inline between the turbo and the engine throttle body, it works like a radiator but for the hot air coming out of the turbo and into the engine. As for water cooler and oil cooled turbos, all turbos are oil cooler/lubricated the oil is there to lubricate and cool the bearings more then it is to cool the turbo. The water cooler turbos use engine coolant to cool the turbo, this greatly decreases coking inside the turbo oil passages.
To have the a muffler shop do all of your exhaust plumbing it will cost you allot of $$$$$$$, if you can try to do as much as you can before hand. The exhaust and your turbo bracket will all have to be made up ahead of time, and installed in conjunction with oil and water lines before you can drive your jeep.
I hope this helps with your questions, feel free to keep them coming.
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Well got some mustang 19# injectors lined up, I will need to uninstall the A/C and two Idlers. I will need a shorter Serpentine Belt after this. Also what are the measurement's for the turbo mount, And it's thickness ??? I will see if I can sell the A/C to off set the cost of this project.
Thank you for the update
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Well got some mustang 19# injectors lined up, I will need to uninstall the A/C and two Idlers. I will need a shorter Serpentine Belt after this. Also what are the measurement's for the turbo mount, And it's thickness ??? I will see if I can sell the A/C to off set the cost of this project.
Thank you for the update
The #19lb injectors are used (as far as I know) on most inline six 4.0L this includes the Cherokees that are in abundance at your local Pick&Pull, and are a hell of a lot cheaper then most auto-wreckers will sell the same injectors for. (I thought you mite want to know)
On the TJ's the FMU and 19lb injectors should work very well due to them being OBDII. OBDII responds very well to mechanical fuel adjustment, however with no return line on the fuel rail the use of a older one like the YJs use will need to be added to your list of parts. With my turbo mount you should not need to remove your AC, I will try to get it drawn up on auto-sketch (no access to auto-cad). I used 5/16 plate to avoid the vibration caused by the engine, a thinner plate will work but I do not recommend it.
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I was looking at these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BOSCH-19LB-FORD-MUSTANG-F-SERIES-BMW-FUEL-INJECTORS_W0QQitemZ170264472428QQihZ007QQcategoryZ33554QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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According to the Service manual, my 97 TJ 2.5 has 53030778 injectors. According to the fuel injector thread on this web site, they flow (1996-2003 (53030778) - 23.2psi/hr). And using turbocalc I need 22.089 psi/hr @ 85% maximum duty. So I can use the stock injectors right?
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I was looking at these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BOSCH-19LB-FORD-MUSTANG-F-SERIES-BMW-FUEL-INJECTORS_W0QQitemZ170264472428QQihZ007QQcategoryZ33554QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Those may work but make sure the sizing is right for your fuel rail, they mite not fit on a Jeep. The 19lb mite still be a bit small I would shoot for a 22lb or so if you can it is better to have too much then not enough. You can always cut back on your fuel map if needs be.
According to the Service manual, my 97 TJ 2.5 has 53030778 injectors. According to the fuel injector thread on this web site, they flow (1996-2003 (53030778) - 23.2psi/hr). And using turbocalc I need 22.089 psi/hr @ 85% maximum duty. So I can use the stock injectors right?
From what I have done with mine if your using a FMU those injectors should work fine, depending on your set up but it is a good place to start for sure. You can always go bigger if you need to later on.
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Ran across this link http://www.aluminumcustoms.com/photos.htm while thinking about under the hood cooling, After adding the turbo.
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Ran across this link http://www.aluminumcustoms.com/photos.htm while thinking about under the hood cooling, After adding the turbo.
I had a look at the above link the hood louvers are a good idea for cooling, but it raises the question are you having problems with cooling ???
I admit when I first purchased my YJ it did have a slight problem with cooling due to a worn clutch fan, and water pump. After swapping in a Ford Taurus electric fan and new water pump, the jeep has no problems cooling whatsoever even with the the turbo.
So unless the louvers are for looks you wont really need them.
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That's one ugly set of louvers. A DIY approach with OEM louvers looks a lot better. BUT I have to agree with ^^ , unless you have something wrong, you shouldn't have any overheating issues. Especially when you swap in a FoMoCo fan.
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Having a hard time finding 22lb injectors, Came across this and need to know if they will work http://www.precisionautoinjectors.com/product.sc?categoryId=-1&productId=5
Thank's :beers:
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Having a hard time finding 22lb injectors, Came across this and need to know if they will work http://www.precisionautoinjectors.com/product.sc?categoryId=-1&productId=5
Thank's :beers:
I don't believe Ford makes a 22# fuel injector. http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=3479.0
Unless you like spending a lot you might try ebay (http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_dmptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQQ_fromZR46?_nkw=Ford+fuel+injectors+24%23&_sacat=0&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=Ford+fuel+injectors&_osacat=0). Low mileage/tested injectors can be had for dirt cheap. I'd shoot for Design III's, rather then the Design II's.
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I just removed my FMU and switched to 24lb injectors, and so far that has been the bust injector I have ran with my turbo.
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I just removed my FMU and switched to 24lb injectors, and so far that has been the bust injector I have ran with my turbo.
So you're using the stock PCM again?
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I just removed my FMU and switched to 24lb injectors, and so far that has been the bust injector I have ran with my turbo.
Sorry for the confusion,
what I did was remove the (Mechanical) FMU from my set up, I am still using the PCS1-002 I had both as you can see in the pic.
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Ah, ok! :thumbsup:
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I rode in a friend's turbo Miata with 7 lbs boost, OMG!!!! I have got to get a turbo for the jeep!!!
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I don't believe Ford makes a 22# fuel injector. http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=3479.0
Unless you like spending a lot you might try ebay (http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_dmptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQQ_fromZR46?_nkw=Ford+fuel+injectors+24%23&_sacat=0&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=Ford+fuel+injectors&_osacat=0). Low mileage/tested injectors can be had for dirt cheap. I'd shoot for Design III's, rather then the Design II's.
Jeffy, How's about set of these puppies. Would they work???
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=220279463165#paymentmethods
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Jeffy, How's about set of these puppies. Would they work???
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=220279463165#paymentmethods
They have the right plugs so they sould be OK.
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was surfing the net adn came across this turbo jeep forum thread with a dyno results (have to be a member to see pics)
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=116982.msg1140906
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=116982.0;attach=105587;image
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Looking to turbo my squirrels. know nothing about turbos except how they generally work. was playing around on ebay and found this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T25-TD04-H-TURBO-CHARGER-S13-S14-S15-300ZX-TURBOCHARGER_W0QQitemZ400039484408QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item400039484408&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
is it a good deal? and would i be able to easily make it work on my 2.5L, and what is a complete listing of what i would need for the install parts wise? and what do you all think of getting this installed by a shop? since i would have no bloomin idea of what to do and how to do it.
Thanks
Oh and i'm not sure if my '91 is TPI or otherwise injected.
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Looking to turbo my squirrels. know nothing about turbos except how they generally work. was playing around on ebay and found this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T25-TD04-H-TURBO-CHARGER-S13-S14-S15-300ZX-TURBOCHARGER_W0QQitemZ400039484408QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item400039484408&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
is it a good deal? and would i be able to easily make it work on my 2.5L, and what is a complete listing of what i would need for the install parts wise? and what do you all think of getting this installed by a shop? since i would have no bloomin idea of what to do and how to do it.
Thanks
Oh and i'm not sure if my '91 is TPI or otherwise injected.
I think unless Im mistaken the 91 jeeps were TBI that mite make turbocharging it a bit tougher then with the MPI (Multi-Port Injection) found in post 92 Jeep YJ's that you can just change the injectors.
The Turbo above will work but in my opinion you dont need one that is capable of pressures over 10psi for the 2.5L build, it is a bit pricey you could go with a bit less output turbo for allot cheaper and still have more then enough pressure. For a rule of thumb try to find a turbo off a engine that is close to the size of the engine that you want to turbo. As with any turbo reto-fit most of the parts are gonna have to be a improvised and fabricated up to fit your specific build.
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91 is the first year of mpfi... 90 was the last tbi year
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Looking to turbo my squirrels. know nothing about turbos except how they generally work. was playing around on ebay and found this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T25-TD04-H-TURBO-CHARGER-S13-S14-S15-300ZX-TURBOCHARGER_W0QQitemZ400039484408QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item400039484408&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
is it a good deal? and would i be able to easily make it work on my 2.5L, and what is a complete listing of what i would need for the install parts wise? and what do you all think of getting this installed by a shop? since i would have no bloomin idea of what to do and how to do it.
Thanks
Oh and i'm not sure if my '91 is TPI or otherwise injected.
With your jeep being MPI the turbo build should be the same as mine, have a look at my turbo build thread (if you haven't already) in member projects under "Sean's project YJ Turbo & .............."
It may give you some direction for your turbo setup.
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Hey sean i need some help with a few aspects of the turbo, where did you T into for the boost gauge? do you have the size of the bolts you used to bolt your mount to the A/C mount? Was there a Check valve used when u T'ed for the boost gauge?
Thanks
John
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O another question sean, where did you get the plug to put into the oil pan for the drain?
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Hey sean i need some help with a few aspects of the turbo, where did you T into for the boost gauge? do you have the size of the bolts you used to bolt your mount to the A/C mount? Was there a Check valve used when u T'ed for the boost gauge?
Thanks
John
I put the T in the hose to the MAP but as close to the manifold as possible, my boost gauge shows boost and vacuum so no check valve. The connection at the pan for the turbo oil return is a threaded steel pipe coupling (not a cast coupling) available from plumbing supply dealers.
Remember
Unlike the oil feed line the oil returning to the pan is in the form of foam and depends on gravity to flow back to the oil pan , therefore:
The oil return line should be a minimum of 5/8" I.D.
All portions of the return line must slant downwards.
The connection at the pan must be welded on ABOVE the oil level in the pan.
I will check what size and thread the bolts are get back to you.
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i know you run the split second tuning system so there is no need for the check valve, but seeing as i wont be running that system i am just running the hesco Fuel Managment unit, i beleive i will need a check valve, so did you run a vaccum line from the wastegate on your turbo to the manifold? or did you just take the existing vaccum line on the MAP sensor and T- in there?
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i know you run the split second tuning system so there is no need for the check valve, but seeing as i wont be running that system i am just running the hesco Fuel Managment unit, i beleive i will need a check valve, so did you run a vaccum line from the wastegate on your turbo to the manifold? or did you just take the existing vaccum line on the MAP sensor and T- in there?
don't mean to interfere here, but fyi i ran my supercharger w/o a check valve to the MAP sensor, it was fine after taking the s/c off. Now if you do put a check valve in there, wouldn't that hold the vacuum behind it and then you'll have the wrong info to the MAP? i think you only need check valves if you're on the pressure side for the things like vacuum disconnect, heater valve, evap canister and brake drum - could be missing something, maybe the cruise control but i'm not sure how and if that would still work unless you add a fairly big vacuum canister (in my case the throttle body gets mounted ahead of the s/c so i was able to reroute the lines where there was no pressure above ambient).
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i just went back and re-read some of the old posts in here, and your right there is no check valves in the map sensor, sean stated that the OBDII ecm is better at coping wtih seeing boost, so im not worried about that anymore, ill be sure to get some for the other things though! thanks!
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Question for you sharp, where did you put ur t-fitting in for your boost gauge? i was just down workin on my jeep and i do not see a vacuum line for my map sensor just a 90 degree elbow, not sure where to t into for the boost gauge.
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Question for you sharp, where did you put ur t-fitting in for your boost gauge? i was just down workin on my jeep and i do not see a vacuum line for my map sensor just a 90 degree elbow, not sure where to t into for the boost gauge.
same as sean did, took out the line off the map (right where it get's in the map sensor fitting) and put the t in that line - one out went to the boost gauge and the other one to the MAP. you can T into any line on the intake that is behind the throttle body but make sure there is no check valve on the line before the T and it also shouldn't be the one with the line coming from the valve cover
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Did you run an air/fuel gauge? if so what O2 sensor did you hook it up too? and which wire did you use as the sender?
Thanks
John
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innovate wideband O2 - you can program it and even trick the ecu to make it richer in closed loop and you can also log your afr so you see where you're lacking fuel, go to http://www.tuneyourengine.com. I feel like we are hijacking Sean's thread, you should create another one in work bench and everyone can answer there better (sorry Sean).
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No problem guys,
For my boost gauge I put my "T" in the same line as the MAP sensor that comes out of the manifold, I wanted to see exactly the same as what the ECM is seeing. Now on that same note i doesn't really matter where you pipe in your boost gauge as long as it will see boost and vacuum, do not use a check valve or you will not see anything other then the highest vacuum/boost after installation and stay there.
For my air/fuel meter i tied into the signal wire of the existing 02 sensor.i know you run the split second tuning system so there is no need for the check valve, but seeing as i wont be running that system i am just running the hesco Fuel Managment unit, i beleive i will need a check valve, so did you run a vaccum line from the wastegate on your turbo to the manifold? or did you just take the existing vaccum line on the MAP sensor and T- in there?
I when down this road earlier on in my build when i was trying to be as cheep as possible lol, I used a "MAP clamp" and other similar check valve setups in the end i found them to be a pain in the ass. They can also be bad news for you engine as the idea is to fool the ECM into thinking there is no boost and just wide open throttle, so you run the risk of the under fueling if the unit doesn't react to the boost fast enough. I would not put in a check valve on your system, but i would consider using one of split seconds units, they have a large line for different applications like yours. Try giving them a call and ask them what they would recommend for your set up, I have talked to them a few times they are very helpful. At the least they may just give you some tips to help you out.
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sh####t, didnt even see the thread. just posted one. anyways i turboed my 2.5 tj and need help finding a product where i can piggyback and tune. looking at the aem fi/c. anybody have any suggestions would greatly appreciate it thanks arin
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hey all new to the forum and i am hoping some of you guys have answers, I believe so with the fact you have the turbo thread.well to start I have a 99 tj with the 2.5 motor. just put a turbo on after I had the motor completly over hauled the complete motor. port, polish, angled and so on. I have bigger injectors and a walbro 255 fuel pump. my question or need help with is. I need to find a product that will allow me to piggy back my computer, so I can have it properly tuned, I have been looking into the AEM fi/c ?. any suggestions or comments would help nobody in town has ever tuned a jeep or anything like it. I have one shop where they specalize in supras they told me they can help but not positive with the out come
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hey all new to the forum and i am hoping some of you guys have answers, I believe so with the fact you have the turbo thread.well to start I have a 99 tj with the 2.5 motor. just put a turbo on after I had the motor completly over hauled the complete motor. port, polish, angled and so on. I have bigger injectors and a walbro 255 fuel pump. my question or need help with is. I need to find a product that will allow me to piggy back my computer, so I can have it properly tuned, I have been looking into the AEM fi/c ?. any suggestions or comments would help nobody in town has ever tuned a jeep or anything like it. I have one shop where they specalize in supras they told me they can help but not positive with the out come
hey man, you really don't need to post in 4 threads to get an answer - this forum is pretty active and someone will help you eventually if you don't find the answer in the meantime.
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sorry MAN,must be used to other forums where you dont get a straight answer, and yet i still dont see nor understand
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hey all new to the forum and i am hoping some of you guys have answers, I believe so with the fact you have the turbo thread.well to start I have a 99 tj with the 2.5 motor. just put a turbo on after I had the motor completly over hauled the complete motor. port, polish, angled and so on. I have bigger injectors and a walbro 255 fuel pump. my question or need help with is. I need to find a product that will allow me to piggy back my computer, so I can have it properly tuned, I have been looking into the AEM fi/c ?. any suggestions or comments would help nobody in town has ever tuned a jeep or anything like it. I have one shop where they specalize in supras they told me they can help but not positive with the out come
Check out Sean's turbo project (http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,3560.0.html) and see if that helps... He's tried a lot of different things.
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best thing so far has been sean's turbo thread which he is now using the split second system which has worked well for him...
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So what do you think the overall price was to turbo your yj?
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Does anyone know the thread size for the oil pressure sending unit into the block? I imagine this is where everyone is getting their oil feed line from and was looking to buy some lines for my setup.
Sean, are you running a -3 line for the turbo? -4? I am going to be running a -10 for the drain which goes in at the back top side of the oil pan in line with one of the main caps to prevent it from rubbing on the crank when the crank comes around.
I will shoot some links in another thread for my turbo build or maybe in this one but really need to know about the feed line right now so I can get that all taken care of.
Bought LS1 injectors off of ebay which are close to the same lb/hr that the cobra mustangs use. something around 24# injectors. If anyone needs a set I have 8 and obviously only need 4.
Also does anyone know the stock fuel pressure. I dont have a gauge setup or the YJ in a running state that I can test what the stock pressure is at idle.
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i'll just answer the general questions, don't want to hijack Sean's thread on the ones meant for him
Does anyone know the thread size for the oil pressure sending unit into the block? I imagine this is where everyone is getting their oil feed line from and was looking to buy some lines for my setup.
i'm not 100% (more like 93.7%) but i think it'd 1/8'' NPT (got a mechanical oil press gauge but it was about 3 yrs ago, that should be it but you might want to wait for a second opinion)
Also does anyone know the stock fuel pressure. I dont have a gauge setup or the YJ in a running state that I can test what the stock pressure is at idle.
39psi without the vac port adjustment (this is for YJ 91-95). 31 psi at idle but depends on you vacuum input (so it will vary with it) - for your calculations you need to use the adjusted fuel pressure (most likely static + boost, but you should verify if that is the case with your FPR)
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Sharpxmen has already answered your oil pressure sender thread size and fuel pressure questions.
My oil feed line size is -04.
For the oil return line do not go any smaller than 5/8" ID, unlike the oil feed line the oil returning to the pan is in the form of foam and depends on gravity to flow back to the pan.
So the oil fitting on the pan must be welded on ABOVE the oil level in the pan. The oil return line must slant downwards until it meets the pan connection, no sharp bends. If you look on page 2, reply #23, 4th picture down you can see where I welded my fitting to the pan.
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So i just read through the thread.
I plan on gathering my parts and wanted to see what you thought
I am going to run only 5-6lbs of boost:
-psc1-002
-19# injectors (have them installed already)
-boost gauge
-air/fuel gauge
Questions-
Im going to use a td04 turbo from a wrx (got it free)
How would i turn down the boost? would an aftermarket wastegate do it?
Also Is the Hesco FPR necessary? Would it run well without it after tuning with the psc1?
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i'll just answer the general questions, don't want to hijack Sean's thread on the ones meant for him
i'm not 100% (more like 93.7%) but i think it'd 1/8'' NPT (got a mechanical oil press gauge but it was about 3 yrs ago, that should be it but you might want to wait for a second opinion)
Sounds good....um is the Oil sending unit a male or female fitting? I'm not at home and I need to start ordering parts? I think there is an elbow down there. Is the elbow a 1/8" male NPT X 1/8" male NPT and the sending unit a Female?
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Sounds good....um is the Oil sending unit a male or female fitting? I'm not at home and I need to start ordering parts? I think there is an elbow down there. Is the elbow a 1/8" male NPT X 1/8" male NPT and the sending unit a Female?
oil sending sensor is male, you have a threaded hole in the block. i did not have an elbow but yours could be different - check the FSM, your answer should be there.
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oil sending sensor is male, you have a threaded hole in the block. i did not have an elbow but yours could be different - check the FSM, your answer should be there.
Thanks. FSM?
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Thanks. FSM?
Field Service Manual; it used to be posted here somewhere...
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Thanks. FSM?
there's a link in the FAQ for downloading the Service Manuals - 91-95 is still available, get it while is there.
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there's a link in the FAQ for downloading the Service Manuals - 91-95 is still available, get it while is there.
sorry, i meant 94-95
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So i just read through the thread.
I plan on gathering my parts and wanted to see what you thought
I am going to run only 5-6lbs of boost:
-psc1-002
-19# injectors (have them installed already)
-boost gauge
-air/fuel gauge
Questions-
Im going to use a td04 turbo from a wrx (got it free)
How would i turn down the boost? would an aftermarket wastegate do it?
Also Is the Hesco FPR necessary? Would it run well without it after tuning with the psc1?
Well the 19lb/hr injectors are a bit small I would think along the lines of 27-30lb/hr is what you will need to supply enough fuel. Sometimes the waste gates are adjustable, but i would look into the actual boost of your turbo. If it is 8psi or below i would just leave it where it is, mine is at 8psi but the only time it ever gets there is when i really Tac it up in high RPM. On a regular day of driving my turbo will not pass 5.5psi , but if you don't want it to be that high in boost a aftermarket waste gate will work to.
For the FPR i would run you jeep without it, and if it does not lean out on you then your in good shape without it. If not then i would spend the cash on the FPR.
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So what do you think the overall price was to turbo your yj?
All said and done maybe 700 bucks, but remember though i did spend more then i needed to on some components such as steel braided oil lines lol.
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Does anyone know the thread size for the oil pressure sending unit into the block? I imagine this is where everyone is getting their oil feed line from and was looking to buy some lines for my setup.
Sean, are you running a -3 line for the turbo? -4? I am going to be running a -10 for the drain which goes in at the back top side of the oil pan in line with one of the main caps to prevent it from rubbing on the crank when the crank comes around.
I will shoot some links in another thread for my turbo build or maybe in this one but really need to know about the feed line right now so I can get that all taken care of.
Bought LS1 injectors off of ebay which are close to the same lb/hr that the cobra mustangs use. something around 24# injectors. If anyone needs a set I have 8 and obviously only need 4.
Also does anyone know the stock fuel pressure. I dont have a gauge setup or the YJ in a running state that I can test what the stock pressure is at idle.
Sharpxmen has already answered your oil pressure sender thread size and fuel pressure questions.
My oil feed line size is -04.
For the oil return line do not go any smaller than 5/8" ID, unlike the oil feed line the oil returning to the pan is in the form of foam and depends on gravity to flow back to the pan.
So the oil fitting on the pan must be welded on ABOVE the oil level in the pan. The oil return line must slant downwards until it meets the pan connection, no sharp bends. If you look on page 2, reply #23, 4th picture down you can see where I welded my fitting to the pan.
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is there a noticeable performance loss with having the turbo mounted on the passenger side of the engine compartment?
i've heard that the closer to the exhaust the better. my goal is to get a quick spooling setup and i don't want any extra lag from having the turbo mounted in the wrong spot. on the other hand having it on the passenger side would require a lot less fab work.
i need to build power quick for crap like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC09e6jHhJ4
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I have a T25 off a 97 Eclipse. Its the smaller T25 I guess. Any ideas if this will work with the 2.5? It looks pretty small.
THanks
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I am new to this but I have 97 TJ 2.5 automatic with A/C that I am in the process of installing a turbo on. I aquired the turbo from a friend and after days of research and a website in the UK, I found my turbo is from a 1.8L Nissan. It is small but I am not looking for huge horsepower gains out of it. I just want to go up a hill on a freeway faster than 45mph. I already have bigger injectors, throttle body spacer, 4.0 throttle body, electric fan, accell coil, magnaflow exhaust, 33" bfg's and 4.11 stock gears. once I can figure out how to put pictures up I will, but for now the turbo is mounted sideways in front of the water pump with brackets I made. I should have most of it installed this weekend..
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I am new to this but I have 97 TJ 2.5 automatic with A/C that I am in the process of installing a turbo on. I aquired the turbo from a friend and after days of research and a website in the UK, I found my turbo is from a 1.8L Nissan. It is small but I am not looking for huge horsepower gains out of it. I just want to go up a hill on a freeway faster than 45mph. I already have bigger injectors, throttle body spacer, 4.0 throttle body, electric fan, accell coil, magnaflow exhaust, 33" bfg's and 4.11 stock gears. once I can figure out how to put pictures up I will, but for now the turbo is mounted sideways in front of the water pump with brackets I made. I should have most of it installed this weekend..
you should make your build thread in member's projects section - there's a lot of interest here in the turbos. good luck with your build and i'm looking forward to the pics and writeup.
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Here comes the question: - Recently I discovered that Throttle body in supercharger application stands before charger, but in all turbo setups it is placed after turbocharger. Why is that?
I started same thread on Jeepforumdotcom, no answer yet.
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What?
The throttle body (fuel injection setup) is the air inlet to the engine. In both situations, the air into the engine is compressed before going into the intake manifold. Whether a supercharger or turbo, the air comes through the throttle body, gets compressed, and then is forced into the intake. That is the basics of compressing the air before it gets into the cylinder.
In the old carburator setup, the air/fuel is compressed by the supercharger. Using a turbo, the air is compressed before going into the carb. Is this the situation you are talking about? Couple of specs - the carb is a mechanical air/fuel mixer, you don't want to compress air/gas with a turbo as the heat generated in the rotors would ignite the mix, cooler air mixture provides greater fuel burn which provides greater energy output.
Many put an intercooler between the output of the turbo to the intake manifold to gain the cooler compressed air. There are many variations of the supercharger and they can also use an intercooler. Many consider a turb a supercharger as its end purpose is to compress air. For a supercharger, the variances provides also are different driven, but many are belt driven off the front of the crank. Turbos are driven by the exhaust volume flow.
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What?
The throttle body (fuel injection setup) is the air inlet to the engine. In both situations, the air into the engine is compressed before going into the intake manifold. Whether a supercharger or turbo, the air comes through the throttle body, gets compressed, and then is forced into the intake. That is the basics of compressing the air before it gets into the cylinder.
In the old carburator setup, the air/fuel is compressed by the supercharger. Using a turbo, the air is compressed before going into the carb. Is this the situation you are talking about? Couple of specs - the carb is a mechanical air/fuel mixer, you don't want to compress air/gas with a turbo as the heat generated in the rotors would ignite the mix, cooler air mixture provides greater fuel burn which provides greater energy output.
Many put an intercooler between the output of the turbo to the intake manifold to gain the cooler compressed air. There are many variations of the supercharger and they can also use an intercooler. Many consider a turb a supercharger as its end purpose is to compress air. For a supercharger, the variances provides also are different driven, but many are belt driven off the front of the crank. Turbos are driven by the exhaust volume flow.
he's asking why the s/c has the t/b ahead of the compressor whereas the turbo has it after the compressor
there are instances where you want the t/b ahead of the turbo - for once, if you don't care of anything other than making power you can have the t/b ahead of the turbo - that will help spin the turbine up due to the vacuum created behing the t/b - it eliminates some of the turbo lag. some downsides to that is sucking in oil from the turbine oiling system, potential "ice" created under the t/b due to the high rpm of the turbine, less control once the t/b is closed - due to the vacuum the turbine will spin freely in the less dense air, once you open the throttle you'll experience a rush of air and a sudden spike in the power output, then it will slow its rotational speed due to the load put on the turbine - in some instances there is a throttle body ahead and after the turbo to control the effect of turbine free spin and still have the advantage of high turbine rpm in vacuum. with the mechanical driven supercharger, once you release the throttle the rpm goes down and with it the rotational speed of the s/c screws/lobs as well.
i think (but i'm not sure) that the t/b ahead of the turbo also creates some problems in controlling the turbo wastegate - that is actuated by the pressure created by the turbo and it controls a bypass valve to route the exhaust gases past the turbine.
EDIT: also the blow off valve would be impossible to control by vacuum
in street applications you will mostly see the t/b after the turbo
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Thank you, that is exactly the answer to my question. And now I see the point not to put TB before turbo - an oil in compressor side of the turbine! But if low boost setup is running, say, up to 0,5 bar, will it be an issue?
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Thank you, that is exactly the answer to my question. And now I see the point not to put TB before turbo - an oil in compressor side of the turbine! But if low boost setup is running, say, up to 0,5 bar, will it be an issue?
i think so. i only heard of t/b before turbo in high end applications like racing cars, Formula 1 cars (back in the day) and some high end sports cars. i'm not saying it cannot be done, but with the t/b after the turbo it is easier to implement.
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That is for sure, but BIG problems start exactly after everything is easily put on. Never read no thread ending up happily. In super charger setup, as they say, all you need to do after hardware installation - put computer in to learn mode, and enjoy. In turbo mods after installation you have to meet the endless screwing with fake electronic devices and injectors selection. May thats why there is no turbo kits on the market, I don't know.
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One issue with the TB before the turbo is it will reverse flow
the exhaust from the cylinders during valve overlap. If you need/want
the TB before the turbo it requires a special cam grind to close the intake
before the exhaust opens. Which impacts power etc. Not worth the trouble imho.
You can get away with it on a supercharger becasue of the mechanics of it
and the bypass valve makes it act like a regular intake during off throttle operation.
Dave
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That is for sure, but BIG problems start exactly after everything is easily put on. Never read no thread ending up happily. In super charger setup, as they say, all you need to do after hardware installation - put computer in to learn mode, and enjoy. In turbo mods after installation you have to meet the endless screwing with fake electronic devices and injectors selection. May thats why there is no turbo kits on the market, I don't know.
Not sure where you are getting your info from or what threads your reading, but the above statement is totally untrue. You won't be putting your Jeep computer in any "learn mode", and the "fake electronic devices and injectors selection" are also required with superchargers. And kits are available from 505 Performance.
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You won't be putting your Jeep computer in any "learn mode", and the "fake electronic devices and injectors selection" are also required with superchargers.
x2
same deal with superchargers as with turbos
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I've got my info from Avenger SC installation manual. "39. It is time to place the factory computer into learn mode for the newly installed Supercharger. Step 1. Key Ignition ON / Step 2. Headlights ON / Step 3. Headlights OFF / Step 4. Key OFF."
You think they lie?
From 505 Performance only one kit is available - for 4L, and it costs a lot.
And I'm talking not about turbo against SC, I made my choice, I'm talking about the fact, that in each turbo setup (including yours Mr. St.Chevrolet :)) there is no end, no Dyno test, no certain recommendations of how it should be done.
But never the less I'm going to build my turbo 2.4 tj too, and just asking for advice. :):)
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Got another stupid question: - What will happen if stock MAP sensor is placed on vacuum side of compressor?
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I've got my info from Avenger SC installation manual. "39. It is time to place the factory computer into learn mode for the newly installed Supercharger. Step 1. Key Ignition ON / Step 2. Headlights ON / Step 3. Headlights OFF / Step 4. Key OFF."
You think they lie?
From 505 Performance only one kit is available - for 4L, and it costs a lot.
And I'm talking not about turbo against SC, I made my choice, I'm talking about the fact, that in each turbo setup (including yours Mr. St.Chevrolet :)) there is no end, no Dyno test, no certain recommendations of how it should be done.
But never the less I'm going to build my turbo 2.4 tj too, and just asking for advice. :):)
that only works for closed loop, at wide open throttle and open loop it won't help at all. On top of that the stock MAP is only good for normally aspirated engines, once you get in boost it will only report up to sea level pressure (1 bar). Same is valid for a turbo application, so Sean was correct - there is no difference between turbo and s/c when comes to fuel management (or to put it this way they both work based on same principle, there are differences but not fundamental). this is a long discussion, there are a bunch of threads on this site where you can find a lot of information on what you need to do to have the mixture with the right amount of air and fuel. Dyno time costs money.
Got another stupid question: - What will happen if stock MAP sensor is placed on vacuum side of compressor?
i wouldn't say it's a stupid question - the system that uses a MAP sensor (manifold air pressure) is called speed density and uses the rpm and the absolute air pressure in the intake manifold that feeds the cylinders - based on that the PCM/ECU calculates the amount of air (and therefore oxygen) that goes into the cylinders and adjusts the fuel delivery based on that - if you misplace the location of the MAP sensor port (and in your example it would be misplaced) the PCM / ECU will not be able to calculate the correct amount of air that the cylinders are "inhaling" so therefore the mixture will be off (or impossible to compensate with fuel if you wish) - basically the system will not have the right information.
the other system that you might have encounter is the MAF (mass air flow) and that is measuring the air flow (easy to guess) to gather the information regarding the amount of air that is going in the cylinders.
btw, Avenger ended up recommending a piggyback system for their supercharger kit. Kenne-Bell was flashing the Jeep PCMs with a new fuel and spark advance map (not the map sensor, map as in a table containing the rpm/pressure fuel delivery parameters or more specifically the injector duty cycle). both were using larger injectors. there are also other factors that affect fuel delivery like IAT (intake air temperature) and engine coolant temperature.
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Dyno time costs money.
Not that much as a modification. And it is made not only for knowing result, but mostly for fine tuning. Correct me if I'm wrong.
i wouldn't say it's a stupid question - the system that uses a MAP sensor (manifold air pressure) is called speed density and uses the rpm and the absolute air pressure in the intake manifold that feeds the cylinders - based on that the PCM/ECU calculates the amount of air (and therefore oxygen) that goes into the cylinders and adjusts the fuel delivery based on that - if you misplace the location of the MAP sensor port (and in your example it would be misplaced) the PCM / ECU will not be able to calculate the correct amount of air that the cylinders are "inhaling" so therefore the mixture will be off (or impossible to compensate with fuel if you wish) - basically the system will not have the right information.
the other system that you might have encounter is the MAF (mass air flow) and that is measuring the air flow (easy to guess) to gather the information regarding the amount of air that is going in the cylinders.
On 2,4 TJ as far as I know we have both MAP and MAF sensors. Does it make a difference?
btw, Avenger ended up recommending a piggyback system for their supercharger kit. Kenne-Bell was flashing the Jeep PCMs with a new fuel and spark advance map (not the map sensor, map as in a table containing the rpm/pressure fuel delivery parameters or more specifically the injector duty cycle). both were using larger injectors. there are also other factors that affect fuel delivery like IAT (intake air temperature) and engine coolant temperature.
As I understood the operation of most piggyback systems is to fool stock ECU, and in most cases they work through MAP sensor inlet. You can not fake amount or temperature of the air, but you can pretend that you are far above sea level and force ECU to compensate low density with additional amount of fuel. Is that correct?
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Not that much as a modification. And it is made not only for knowing result, but mostly for fine tuning. Correct me if I'm wrong.
you don't need a dyno to fine tune - if you have the tools to monitor and log the engine operating parameters you can do it on the street.
On 2,4 TJ as far as I know we have both MAP and MAF sensors. Does it make a difference?
first time i hear this but i am not familiar with the 2.4 - i don't see the point in having both, but then again i dunno anything about this engine. It makes a difference since with the stock 1 bar MAP you are limited in measuring up to sea level pressure, with a MAF you will get information about the extra amount of air that makes it into the engine even in boost (all air flow, not pressure)
You can not fake amount or temperature of the air, but you can pretend that you are far above sea level and force ECU to compensate low density with additional amount of fuel. Is that correct?
there is no point in faking the IAT output although Avenger recommended moving the IAT sensor before the s/c (i think it was Avenger, or maybe another kit brand that i read about) once you compress the air it will raise the air temp - higher Air Temp will retard the spark and reduce the amount of fuel that is delivered (less dense air) but that is only valid in open loop, in closed loop works by means of O2 feedback
lower air density means less fuel required (higher altitude, less density => less oxygen to burn fuel) - the other way around
As I understood the operation of most piggyback systems is to fool stock ECU, and in most cases they work through MAP sensor inlet.
you're right about the piggyback modding the map output or replacing it with their internal one - same goes for the MAF output. In the case of the map there is another twist - your stock map works up to 1 bar, the piggyback systems come with a 2 bar or even a 3 bar internal map sensor, so basically replaces the limited stock MAP with one that can read intake pressure in aspirated mode as well as in boost mode. With MAF you mod the voltage output so you reduce the AFR (increase fuel) during boost. Same here, all this is valid for open loop, you cannot adjust the AFR in closed loop by changing the MAP or MAF output - the PCM will always compensate targetting 14.7 AFR - you will need a way to either put the PCM/ECU in open loop or mod the O2 output in that case (14.7 is too lean when you're in boost).
some piggyback systems are also controlling ignition advance (more specifically will retard timing) - this is due to compressing the air and increasing the air temperature and the result is burning the fuel faster so less timing advance required - this will not address detonation however which will cause knocking/pinging (mixture autoigniting).
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I was wrong about MAF on 2,4l TJ. There is no MAF, just MAP, IAT and TPS. Also with altitude compensation you are right. In Avenger manual I have, they say nothing about IAT relocation, and you are right again :nod: PCM must see real temperature of the air taken inside. So, what to do? :confused:
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I was wrong about MAF on 2,4l TJ. There is no MAF, just MAP, IAT and TPS. Also with altitude compensation you are right. In Avenger manual I have, they say nothing about IAT relocation, and you are right again :nod: PCM must see real temperature of the air taken inside. So, what to do? :confused:
what do you want to achieve? what's your planned application - turbo, s/c? what's your desired boost?
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The aim is very simple to be as close to 6 banger as possible. Which means torque maximum at 2500-2800 rpm, and 140-150 whp.
Low boost turbo, up to 8 psi. TD04L - 16G with air to air intercooler, biger injectors and ?????????????? smth to manage a/f ratio.
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The aim is very simple to be as close to 6 banger as possible. Which means torque maximum at 2500-2800 rpm, and 140-150 whp.
Low boost turbo, up to 8 psi. TD04L - 16G with air to air intercooler, biger injectors and ?????????????? smth to manage a/f ratio.
have a look at AEM FI/C - from what i remember is meant for OBDII systems and i think you can also alter the O2 output to get the best out of it in closed loop. Also, i think in your case there was a Chrysler vehicle that had a turbo on the same engine (PT Cruiser i think) so it might be that you can find an exhaust manifold to mount a turbo on it.
here's a good writeup for you, very interesting - same engine as yours i believe http://www.reno4x4.com/forum/showthread.php/5362-Turbocharged-2.4L-Jeep-TJ-for-me!!!
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someone on here used to (maybe still does) have a turbo 2.4l i think he had to keep the jeep block for the motor mounts to work but had to install the exhaust manifold from the turbo 2.4l upside down to get everything to fit..
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As I said, I been through all threads available in internet, but none of them ended happily. No one wrote down a total list of parts, and any dyno results.
In my case, to make hardware not a big deal. Tuning - that is the problem. Any stand alone like AEM, is definitely out of budget.
Maximum PSC1-002 from Split Second.
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As I said, I been through all threads available in internet, but none of them ended happily. No one wrote down a total list of parts, and any dyno results.
In my case, to make hardware not a big deal. Tuning - that is the problem. Any stand alone like AEM, is definitely out of budget.
Maximum PSC1-002 from Split Second.
you can use the PSC1 to start with and later add an ignition timing retard module if you find that knocking is an issue (trying not to be biased here but i do have an MSD/Vortech unit for sale in the garage sale section for $75 if you're interested - i ended up with the Split Second FTC1 so that addresses the timing also).
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And what setup are you running?
Thanks for the proposal, but let set up my mind first. ::)
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And what setup are you running?
Thanks for the proposal, but let set up my mind first. ::)
i have an opcon autorotor supercharger. I had it with only larger injectors and adjustable FPR but impossible to fine tune at all ranges. I am in the process of revamping it since it was just a quick put together initially and also adding an air to air intercooler, Split Second FTC1, 32lb/hr injectors, wideband O2 sensor with programmable narrowband O2 output - check my supercharger install thread in the Member's projects section for details (i thought you already looked at it but i gather you have not seen it yet) http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,7334.msg54415.html#msg54415
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Till now I was looking for turbo mods only, now I see they have very much in common.
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Yes, I did read your thread. Very nicely done. When do you plan to test it? I can see a problem in a long intake like yours. Since the throttle body is before s/c all pipes and intercooler will be sucked by the engine at closed throttle, and than it will take time to fill it again. I'll be happy to be wrong.:)
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Yes, I did read your thread. Very nicely done. When do you plan to test it? I can see a problem in a long intake like yours. Since the throttle body is before s/c all pipes and intercooler will be sucked by the engine at closed throttle, and than it will take time to fill it again. I'll be happy to be wrong.:)
will fill up faster than a turbo with the t/b downstream (the s/c starts to make pressure at at about 1200 to 1500 rpm)
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I like this setup. Water to air intercooler, separate cooling system, very short intake. With your skills can be easily done, I think.
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I like this setup. Water to air intercooler, separate cooling system, very short intake. With your skills can be easily done, I think.
i did some research before deciding which way to go
advantaged of air to water intercooler (usually called aftercooler): reduced size, reduced plenum size, less tubing routing headache, you can add ice but that is only good for a quick run (not my case)
disadvantage: less efficient (unless you use laminova type but then there is a pressure drop and you need a large radiator to keep up with the heat - a small one will be good for short bursts and not constant boost), way more expensive
advantage of air to air (i use a bar and plate type): efficiency, less pressure drop at same temp drop, cheap
disadvantage: more complicated to install, larger plenum, more piping to be routed in and out of the i/c
usually you will see the s/c with an air to water intercooler and the turbo with an air to air but i did find that some offer air to air kits with good results so due to cost and few other factors that was my choice in the end.
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PCM must see real temperature of the air taken inside. So, what to do? :confused:
Get it close enough? That's what a lot of people do. You try to tune it as well as you can with the tools you can get.
Jeeps weren't designed with possible forced induction in mind. Some of that has to be compensated for with math and guesswork.
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i did some research before deciding which way to go
advantage of air to air (i use a bar and plate type): efficiency, less pressure drop at same temp drop, cheap
disadvantage: more complicated to install, larger plenum, more piping to be routed in and out of the i/c
That is also my choice but for turbo setup. Also TJ is my DD and I don't go much wheeling, no rocks at all.
Hope your setup will work well.
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Is it the right model of split second - FTC1-019B?
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Is it the right model of split second - FTC1-019B?
works on my Jeep although is a rebrand not Split Second direct purchase so whatever their model numbering is won't be the same on the one i got.
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Do you have a kind of install manual? Looked at their site, nothing similar. May be some pictures of device installed?
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Do you have a kind of install manual? Looked at their site, nothing similar. May be some pictures of device installed?
i have the wiring harness splices in with a male/female 10 pin metric pack connector - i have 2 other male/female connectors on the unit harness - so I can disconnect the 2 on the harness and plug in the ones on the unit and the Split Second is in between sensors and the PCM, if i want to get back to stock simply unplug the connectors and connect back the 2 on the original harness.
I didn't get a chance to post pics and details in my s/c writeup but it's coming.
They have the manual on their site, is the same as the Dodge V8 one they have there if i remember correctly. They do have the PSC1 manuals as well, St. Chevrolet went with one of those.
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Can you say smth on this gadget: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/ot2.php
I'm new to tuning, is it a good replacement for laptop or just a toy? I have iPhone on board anyway, just though can watch my OBD II online.
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Can you say smth on this gadget: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/ot2.php
I'm new to tuning, is it a good replacement for laptop or just a toy? I have iPhone on board anyway, just though can watch my OBD II online.
it's an interface with OBDII. There are others out there. If you're planning to buy other things from them then it's worth it as it will integrate over their MTS link, if you don't you could probably find a cheaper one. Nice thing about OBDII is that you can monitor all the parameters without having to splice into the harness (that's what i had to do to get my SSI-4 and LC-1 and connect to my laptop) and you can also monitor the fuel trims and codes via a laptop interface. At $179 with the capabilities that it has i would say it's a reasonable deal.
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Can not clearly understand from their site if I can read and reset Trouble codes through my iPhone.
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Can not clearly understand from their site if I can read and reset Trouble codes through my iPhone.
i think you can read the codes but you can't reset the codes (thru either iPhone or PC/laptop). i think it's the same as OT-1 just with WiFi and iPhone capabilities
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/OT1_Manual.pdf
it is meant for monitoring and logging engine parameters, what you are looking for i think is a diagnostic tool which this one is not
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Just look: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/logworks/id351896392?mt=8
On 3rd layout they have RESET button. :clap:
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Just look: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/logworks/id351896392?mt=8
On 3rd layout they have RESET button. :clap:
i don't see it - which layout? there are only 2 screenshots in the link you posted
edit: nevermind, i missed the scroll bar on the bottom there
were you referring to the clear-all button?
edit 2: I'd start by reading the manual and see what it says - i don't think you can reset anything other than the values stored in the application
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Yea, it is CLEAR ALL. It's not the one, is it?
So I need to buy WO2 from them to be able to control a/f ratio? Is it installed in replacement of stock O2, or in addition?
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Yea, it is CLEAR ALL. It's not the one, is it?
So I need to buy WO2 from them to be able to control a/f ratio? Is it installed in replacement of stock O2, or in addition?
the LC1 (wideband o2) will let you monitor the AFR, you can't change anything with it. you can replace your stock o2 with it as it has 2 analog outputs which you can program and potentially you can offset the output on those to "trick" the PCM in having a richer mixture - but that only works for closed loop, won't be a replacement for a piggyback system.
EDIT: forgot to ask - is your 2.4L equipped with a narrowband O2 or a wideband? if it has a wideband you don't need an LC1 as you can monitor the mixture thru the OBD2 interface (you can monitor it even with a narrowband but it's limited so won't help you in the 12 to 14 AFR range)
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No, I think I understood the need of piggy back, I mean this device for monitoring of my future mods and recent conditions of my car. If it is a good replacement for laptop, I'd go for it.
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No, I think I understood the need of piggy back, I mean this device for monitoring of my future mods and recent conditions of my car. If it is a good replacement for laptop, I'd go for it.
you don't look at the display when you tune it - you log the parameters of the engine (MAP reading, RPM, AFR, TPS) and then you analyze it later - based on the log you go into the piggyback and adjust the fuel delivery map based on what you logged (adjust the MAP output to compensate for too little or too much fuel) - the piggyback has a table that is based on RPM and MAP readings - would be impossible for you to visually log and remember all the points where you need to make adjustments and then go into the piggyback and change the values.
double check if you have a wideband or narrowband
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The last screen shot shows IAT temperature - good feature for us! Do they also mean MAP as map sensor? What units are there if it really MAP sensor readings?
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The last screen shot shows IAT temperature - good feature for us! Do they also mean MAP as map sensor? What units are there if it really MAP sensor readings?
yes, they mean map sensor reading - like i said, nice thing with yours is that you can monitor all the sensor outputs via obd2
didn't get your other question (don't understand what you mean).
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EDIT: forgot to ask - is your 2.4L equipped with a narrowband O2 or a wideband? if it has a wideband you don't need an LC1 as you can monitor the mixture thru the OBD2 interface (you can monitor it even with a narrowband but it's limited so won't help you in the 12 to 14 AFR range)
Tried to find out in manual. Negative. All i know it has a dual O2S system, upstream/downstream. Does it say smth to you?
Also it says - O2S produces 0-1 Volt.
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yes, they mean map sensor reading - like i said, nice thing with yours is that you can monitor all the sensor outputs via obd2
didn't get your other question (don't understand what you mean).
I meant units - inHg. Now I know "inches of Mercury". Never met that before.:) It is 0,5 psi - is it?
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Tried to find out in manual. Negative. All i know it has a dual O2S system, upstream/downstream. Does it say smth to you?
Also it says - O2S produces 0-1 Volt.
0 to 1v is narrowband, i looked around too - does not seem to be a wideband (but mind you i did not get into it too much).
I meant units - inHg. Now I know "inches of Mercury". Never met that before.:) It is 0,5 psi - is it?
oh, i see - i thought you meant units as in devices - no wonder was not making any sense. Usually it is inHg for the vacuum side and psi for the boost side - you can setup the same output in logworks - it's very customizable so you can set it to any output you want (psi, bar, Pascal or KPa, kg/cm^2 in vacuum, boost or as absolute pressure).
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62.31 inHg - does it make any sense? What would be for vacuum?
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62.31 inHg - does it make any sense? What would be for vacuum?
no it doesn't, about -20inHg for a normal vacuum at idle if i remember correctly. Might be that they did not split the scale and it is absolute pressure and in that case that would show something like 10psi of boost (i'm too lazy to get the values converted - just a very loose approximation)
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I'd like to thank you for all the information you gave to me. It is the most friendly and intelligent community I've ever met. It will be an honor for me to participate in your further discussions.
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I'd like to thank you for all the information you gave to me. It is the most friendly and intelligent community I've ever met. It will be an honor for me to participate in your further discussions.
no problem. Keep us posted with your progress and maybe post some pics of your Jeep.
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I will. Now it is almost stock. Hopefully this summer I will start turbo mod.
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I got with some dudes that hotrodded Neons and they helped me to work out 99% of the bugs. Immediately after install, the blower set a check engine code and would only rev to 4000 rpm. I fixed that by buying another MAP sensor, and running a vacuum line to it from the inlet side of the blower. That REALLY woke up that blower. I now have about 50000 miles and the only other issue I have is occasional detonation due to bad gas. ( I have found that some stations have 93 octane, and some stations just charge for it.) and bolts working loose.Just read the thread: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/avenger-supercharger-2-4l-install-w-pics-358369/index4.html
Maybe someone knows this guy? It was long ago and he didn't answer, but it would be useful to find out what is "another MAP sensor" and which way it is connected to intake side of charger.
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I got with some dudes that hotrodded Neons and they helped me to work out 99% of the bugs. Immediately after install, the blower set a check engine code and would only rev to 4000 rpm. I fixed that by buying another MAP sensor, and running a vacuum line to it from the inlet side of the blower. That REALLY woke up that blower. I now have about 50000 miles and the only other issue I have is occasional detonation due to bad gas. ( I have found that some stations have 93 octane, and some stations just charge for it.) and bolts working loose.
Just read the thread: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/avenger-supercharger-2-4l-install-w-pics-358369/index4.html
Maybe someone knows this guy? It was long ago and he didn't answer, but it would be useful to find out what is "another MAP sensor" and which way it is connected to intake side of charger.
i didn't read the thread, but i'm just going to guess that he did not replace the factory 1 bar sensor - he could not read boost anyway, so to some extent would make some sense (but nowhere close to be the right way to do it)
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On TJ you can not replace 1Bar MAP, you can fool it only with Split Second or other piggy back, if you are staying with stock PCM of coarse. Reading that thread I realized, that it could be a problem with my OBD II+, till now no turbo or s/c was installed on 05/06 2.4 TJ. It's a pity this guy does not answer any more.
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On TJ you can not replace 1Bar MAP, you can fool it only with Split Second or other piggy back, if you are staying with stock PCM of coarse. Reading that thread I realized, that it could be a problem with my OBD II+, till now no turbo or s/c was installed on 05/06 2.4 TJ. It's a pity this guy does not answer any more.
you can, that's what the split second unit does - it replaces the 1 bar with a 2 bar map. if you leave all the values at 10 it will work exactly like an OEM 2 bar map but it will not work correctly - read the docs on their site and the tuning guide there, there's a lot of good info in those.
It doesn't matter if it's OBD 1/2, they work the same - you have to recalibrate the absolute pressure reading to match the new range. The only problem you're having is the resulting compression ratio - that's why you need a lower AFR in boost. He mentions "occasional pinging" - that's where his mixture is off, not the pump he's buying gas from.
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Also in that thread Air Sierra says he is running turbo with out single issue from PCM side, even in Red Zone. He has bigger injectors and 93 octane gas and that's it. Air Sierra does not answers any questions any more too, and it can be understood, he probably sold his rig already, but his thread was the one which inspired me to do the same mod. Now, the more info comes to me, the more obvious it become that nothing is so easy, as one man says.
At the end, you can probably fool PCM, but you can't fool compression ratio. It is possible to swap to srt4 turbo pistons, but than it is one step left to swap to srt4 - PCM. At least you will be sure that some day your turbo engine will operate properly.
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I thought of such a setup to bypass the boost off 1Bar MAP sensor. Will it work?
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I thought of such a setup to bypass the boost off 1Bar MAP sensor. Will it work?
- it will see the full boost
- that bypass valve the way you positioned it won't serve any purpose
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I thought of such a setup to bypass the boost off 1Bar MAP sensor. Will it work?
Sharpxmen if I understand what he is trying to do correctly, his "bypass valve" will close completely under boost allowing the MAP to read atmospheric pressure only.
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The idea was to close valve on boost and at the same moment to open small valve connected to intake part of turbine, where a little vacuum supposed to be.
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Updated diagram.
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Sharpxmen if I understand what he is trying to do correctly, his "bypass valve" will close completely under boost allowing the MAP to read atmospheric pressure only.
The idea was to close valve on boost and at the same moment to open small valve connected to intake part of turbine, where a little vacuum supposed to be.
the moment that valve starts to open you'll drop boost and will close back
one issue is how you control it
assuming you find a way with some fast switching electromagnetic valves that would open/close in sequence (not mechanically actuated as that would not work) second issue is how do you control the fuel delivery for anything over 0 pressure.
let me explain this last one (i'll simplify the numbers):
your stock map reads 0 absolute pressure to 14.7 absolute pressure (no vacuum, wide open throttle) - the voltage output is 0v to 5v (at idle you'll have something like 1.6 or close to that) - your fuel delivery is based on that range
once you do this mod and let's say you're at 6 psi max boost for a total of 20.7 psi absolute pressure - how do you compensate for the extra air between 14.7 psi and 20.7 psi - you will need more fuel and will not be a set value but progressive as the boost increases
what you need to do is to shift your map output so it will give you 1.6v at idle and 5v at 20.7psi
in reality the stock 1 bar map outputs something like 4.7v at wot
you can do it with a 2 bar map and a volt mod for the map input, but you'll also need a voltage limiter on the output of the MAP so it won't go over 5v or it will set a fault code in your PCM and possibly stop functioning until you reset the computer
the other alternative is to keep the 1 bar map and use an FMU (you'll have to determine the ratio you need)
your stock 1 bar map will only read 1 bar so potentially you can have it in the same spot as the stock one without this bypass valve you are trying to do - i had it that way and it did not damage mine but i can't guarantee you that it won't happen to yours
but regardless, your computer will most likely throw codes if you with one of these options, you will not be able to tune it properly and instead of getting 30% increase in power once you're at full boost you'll get like 10% or best case scenario if you manage to tune it for that specific range your mpg will hurt badly - for the amount of money, time and research you will put into getting it to work you'll be better of buying a piggyback from the start. As i understand this is your DD, if you mistune it you'll risk damaging the engine - if it was a drag racer then you would mostly be worried to get it right in a specific rpm range and mostly at wot which makes it lot easier, in your case you need to make sure it will function properly at all ranges. Your PCM needs to have the fuel trims in a reasonable range or it will never be able to compensate, that's what the fuel delivery table is for.
But, if you decide to go with something other than the programmable piggyback let us know your progress - i'll be interested in finding out how it goes.
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Nothing new under the sun. The valve is suggested already exist: http://www.synapseengineering.com/
Ml 003 Missing link - is the one for TJ.
It's not because I refuse a piggy back, it's in addition, to avoid Check Engine light at boost.
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the moment that valve starts to open you'll drop boost and will close back
one issue is how you control it
assuming you find a way with some fast switching electromagnetic valves that would open/close in sequence (not mechanically actuated as that would not work) second issue is how do you control the fuel delivery for anything over 0 pressure.
let me explain this last one (i'll simplify the numbers):
your stock map reads 0 absolute pressure to 14.7 absolute pressure (no vacuum, wide open throttle) - the voltage output is 0v to 5v (at idle you'll have something like 1.6 or close to that) - your fuel delivery is based on that range
once you do this mod and let's say you're at 6 psi max boost for a total of 20.7 psi absolute pressure - how do you compensate for the extra air between 14.7 psi and 20.7 psi - you will need more fuel and will not be a set value but progressive as the boost increases
what you need to do is to shift your map output so it will give you 1.6v at idle and 5v at 20.7psi
in reality the stock 1 bar map outputs something like 4.7v at wot
you can do it with a 2 bar map and a volt mod for the map input, but you'll also need a voltage limiter on the output of the MAP so it won't go over 5v or it will set a fault code in your PCM and possibly stop functioning until you reset the computer
the other alternative is to keep the 1 bar map and use an FMU (you'll have to determine the ratio you need)
your stock 1 bar map will only read 1 bar so potentially you can have it in the same spot as the stock one without this bypass valve you are trying to do - i had it that way and it did not damage mine but i can't guarantee you that it won't happen to yours
but regardless, your computer will most likely throw codes if you with one of these options, you will not be able to tune it properly and instead of getting 30% increase in power once you're at full boost you'll get like 10% or best case scenario if you manage to tune it for that specific range your mpg will hurt badly - for the amount of money, time and research you will put into getting it to work you'll be better of buying a piggyback from the start. As i understand this is your DD, if you mistune it you'll risk damaging the engine - if it was a drag racer then you would mostly be worried to get it right in a specific rpm range and mostly at wot which makes it lot easier, in your case you need to make sure it will function properly at all ranges. Your PCM needs to have the fuel trims in a reasonable range or it will never be able to compensate, that's what the fuel delivery table is for.
But, if you decide to go with something other than the programmable piggyback let us know your progress - i'll be interested in finding out how it goes.
X2
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Vodkaman I have been advised by others who have tried it, that the OBDII TJ's work well with just mechanical fuel management. ie: the Hesco # HESTJFMU TJ Fuel Management System (www.hesco.us) along with injectors from a 5.0 Mustang or Ford truck. I realize you are looking for the perfect answer and not finding it, however Air Sierra's setup works well, his peak boost is only 6psi and his stock computer handles it fine with NO check engine lights. My setup works well also (2.5L) its my DD an I get no check engine lights. I use the SS PSC-1 and also water/methanol, works great with my OBDI system. You should probably follow Air Sierra's build along with whatever additional options you chose to use ie: Split Second FTC-1 or HESTJFMU along with larger injectors.
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Nothing new under the sun. The valve is suggested already exist: http://www.synapseengineering.com/
Ml 003 Missing link - is the one for TJ.
It's not because I refuse a piggy back, it's in addition, to avoid Check Engine light at boost.
if you get a piggyback and you properly size your injectors you will not get a check engine light. Your stock MAP will be replaced by the piggyback system.
i looked at that link you posted, which valve are you referring to on their site, SB001?
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i looked at that link you posted, which valve are you referring to on their site, SB001?
nevermind, you did mention it ML003
if you use a piggyback you don't need it - you can limit the voltage output in the MAP output table.
if you go with an FMU or voltage mod + 2bar or the long shot of keeping the stock MAP then you can make use of it
if you use it with the piggyback then it won't work or to be more specific there's no point in getting the piggyback as this valve will cancel any benefits you would get from the piggyback in boost (won't read anything over atmospheric pressure).
EDIT: whichever way you twist it, cheapest way is the Split Second PSC1 + properly sized injectors. Not sure how much this ML003 costs though, maybe you're onto something or might be that i don't see the whole picture (not sure of your final plan) so maybe you should clarify the final layout (it will keep me from guessing).
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I've just heard that the boost can physically destroy stock Map, which will result in Check Engine light on.
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I've just heard that the boost can physically destroy stock Map, which will result in Check Engine light on.
you won't be using the stock map, it gets removed when using the PSC1 or FTC1
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Yes, I was mistaken. It is a Split Second which is installed in between stock Map and PCM. Correct?
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Yes, I was mistaken. It is a Split Second which is installed in between stock Map and PCM. Correct?
you replace the stock MAP output going to the PCM with the SS PSC1 or FTC1, whichever you chose to go with
Also, according to Sean (St. Chevrolet) you might get away without a split second unit (check his last post in this thread)
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Well, Hesco & SS are at the same price, so I prefer SS, because of computer control. Air Sierras thread is closed, at least he does not answer. There are big questions to his setup, because according to you, stock Map is not able to suffer the boost. So his setup works, but how, nobody knows. :brick:
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Well, Hesco & SS are at the same price, so I prefer SS, because of computer control. Air Sierras thread is closed, at least he does not answer. There are big questions to his setup, because according to you, stock Map is not able to suffer the boost. So his setup works, but how, nobody knows. :brick:
he might have an FMU or he might just had his tuned for the full boost and he drives conservatively most of the time. an FMU would help in this case (stock MAP)
EDIT: Split Second PSC1 is $285 if i remember correctly, Hesco FMU with the Fuel Pump on it is something like $600
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Sharpxmen
SplitSecond has some new products and the price for PSC-1-002 has dropped to $239.00, I paid $265.00 when I bought mine.The FTC1-019B is :yikes: $499.00.That Hesco TJ FMU looks pretty easy for a DIY build. Air Sierra's setup worked fine with the stock ECM as long as he limited boost to 6psi, its all in his thread.
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Sharpxmen
SplitSecond has some new products and the price for PSC-1-002 has dropped to $239.00, I paid $265.00 when I bought mine.The FTC1-019B is :yikes: $499.00.That Hesco TJ FMU looks pretty easy to build. Air Sierra's setup worked fine with the stock ECM as long as he limited boost to 6psi, its all in his thread.
that's even better then ($239).
I guess what i am wondering with air sierra's setup is what would his AFR be if he's cruising at 2 or 3 psi of boost down the hwy - since in that case he would pretty much get the same amount of fuel (theoretically) as at 6 psi - not sure if you get what i mean. If you drive mostly w/o boost and only go up there once in a while when needed it might do the job. Maybe is something specific to 2.4L OBD2 PCM that i'm missing.
yeah, you can make the hesco setup but still need to buy a high press pump and an fmu - my guess it will be more than $239 though (damn, that's pretty good) so why not just use what's known to be working (but for sure he should email sales at splitsecond first to make sure that the unit works with the 2.4L PCM).
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that's even better then ($239).
I guess what i am wondering with air sierra's setup is what would his AFR be if he's cruising at 2 or 3 psi of boost down the hwy - since in that case he would pretty much get the same amount of fuel (theoretically) as at 6 psi - not sure if you get what i mean. If you drive mostly w/o boost and only go up there once in a while when needed it might do the job. Maybe is something specific to 2.4L OBD2 PCM that i'm missing.
yeah, you can make the hesco setup but still need to buy a high press pump and an fmu - my guess it will be more than $239 though (damn, that's pretty good) so why not just use what's known to be working (but for sure he should email sales at splitsecond first to make sure that the unit works with the 2.4L PCM).
In his thread Air Sierra mention's he has an onboard engine analyzer and that the AFR is perfect through out the entire rpm range as far as rich/lean conditions. He also mentions trying different injectors but going back to the stock injectors.
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I bought the manual about a month ago for $7.50 US, and for anyone wanting to turbo the 2.5L YJ this is a perfect step by step on how to do it. If you follow the guide it shouldn't cost you allot somewhere in the area of $350. I have been accumulating all the parts I need to do it, all I have left is to buy injectors and to date I have spent $270.
For anyone wanting to turbo there Jeep and knows little about turbos this is the best help you can get especially for $7.50
I give this guide a high rating, but I did change a few things from the way the guide said to do it, but only because I am a bit of a perfectionist and didn't mind spending the extra bit of money.
Is this book still out there? If so where can I find it?
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Is this book still out there? If so where can I find it?
There was a PDF on eBay at one time that was a guide to turboing a YJ, but, IMHO was worthless... I did get Corky Bell's Maximum Boost, which is a much better guide. It's not only a guide, but explains the why's and how's...
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Is this book still out there? If so where can I find it?
Read my thread in Members Projects
Sean's Project YJ Turbo &.............. « 1 2 ... 12 13 »
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In his thread Air Sierra mention's he has an onboard engine analyzer and that the AFR is perfect through out the entire rpm range as far as rich/lean conditions. He also mentions trying different injectors but going back to the stock injectors.
hmm, if it's the OBD2/CAN interface then it is still limited to what the narrowband reports and off at wot - i looked around and the 2.4L seems to be still with a narrowband sensor. the on-board OBD2 analyzer is good for monitoring everything and the fuel trims in closed loop as far as i know, not sure what it does in open loop. do you have a link to that post?
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http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/turbocharged-2-4l-my-tj-333749/ - this is his post. He ended up with bigger injectors. But how he did manage A/F ratio with stock MAP and 0.6 PSI boost, is a big question.
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http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/turbocharged-2-4l-my-tj-333749/ - this is his post. He ended up with bigger injectors. But how he did manage A/F ratio with stock MAP and 0.6 PSI boost, is a big question.
yeah, i seen that but i was asking about the post regarding his on-board analyzer that Sean mentioned.
i just looked at the splitsec website to check their new pricing and found this http://www.splitsec.com/articles/JP1109.pdf - it's a YJ 4 banger turbo build
and this http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/Fuel-Engine_in_Boost_using_2-bar_Map_Sensor.pdf - it pretty much explains the 1bar stock vs 2bar and the way the split second operates, it's a good read if you have not seen it before
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i just looked at the splitsec website to check their new pricing and found this http://www.splitsec.com/articles/JP1109.pdf - it's a YJ 4 banger turbo build
Hmm, I might have to talk to Pete. I thought he sold his 4banger.
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hmm, if it's the OBD2/CAN interface then it is still limited to what the narrowband reports and off at wot - i looked around and the 2.4L seems to be still with a narrowband sensor. the on-board OBD2 analyzer is good for monitoring everything and the fuel trims in closed loop as far as i know, not sure what it does in open loop. do you have a link to that post?
Here's the post
Ya that would suck do you know what volts the o2 are reading???
Its a snap-on computer analyzer I bought it a couple of years ago to get my familys fleet of cars going I was tired of paying $250 to have something scanned.
mine show rich when on the gas like it should, Center at idle and, lean when off the gas just like it did before I installed the Turbo....I did hear that the fuel system is different between the years..don't know why they did that??
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Here's the post on injectors
I bought 2 different injector sets to try to get the air/fuel mixture just perfect....I ended using the stock ones. The air/fuel is perfect through out the entire RPM ranger as far as rich/lean conditions.
I have a onboard computer analyzer to watch all the parameters to makes sure everything is OK. My air intake charge is around 65 degrees at any speed.
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Here's the post on injectors
I bought 2 different injector sets to try to get the air/fuel mixture just perfect....I ended using the stock ones. The air/fuel is perfect through out the entire RPM ranger as far as rich/lean conditions.
I have a onboard computer analyzer to watch all the parameters to makes sure everything is OK. My air intake charge is around 65 degrees at any speed.
he won't be able to tell what the mixture is with the stock O2 - whether is 8 or 14 AFR will still show as rich, but at least he knows he's not too lean.
i don't know about these 2 statements, can't really tell what the deal is
"..I ended using the stock ones"
"My air intake charge is around 65 degrees at any speed"
not really make sense for operating in boost unless his turbo seized - anyway, joke aside, this beats me - not sure how it works in his case and i am really the type that like to understand what's going on before stating an opinion, in this instance i can't
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Here is a later post from 2010 about injectors he used.
Injectors P/N: 1W7EAA from Bruce at Five O Motor sports
Here's one from 2008
Well I have driven multiple 1600 miles trips in my jeep in 3-4 days plus I drive it 4-5 days a week myself plus I pull a 1,500 pound jeep trailer to and from trials now. and most of the time Its up mountain road pass's the go from 4,500' in elevation to 8,000' .........
I have 27,000 miles now on this conversion and it works so far with no problems...
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Sharpxmen he mentions his analyzer in this post also from 2008.
I installed a sniffer that goes into the O2 bung on the exhaust and plug in a Drivable monitoring system.
I found it was running a bit lean so I changed injectors. Now it runs fine, timing is fine unless you over boost then the stock computer will not make enough adjustments for the boost.
If somebody could find a good shop to reprogram the stock Computer you could gain a ton more power. I was happy with the power increase, that I had gained. I also like how I was not over boosting the engine causing extra wear and tear on the motor.
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too bad he's not active anymore, would be interesting to see an actual dyno run (but that costs money so would be unlikely anyway).
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Read my thread in Members Projects
Sean's Project YJ Turbo &.............. « 1 2 ... 12 13 »
I just finished reading your entire thread after printing it....about to read it again with highlighter. Do you still have the drawing on the bracket? Also, I saw you were a fan of the pdf book on e-bay for a basic guideline, do you still have that as well?
TIA
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Here is one more site where Air Sierra is still active: http://www.reno4x4.com/forum/showthread.php/38135-Turbocharged-2.4L-for-me-TOO!!!!
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I'm sure this was mentioned someplace but how much pressure can a YJ handle without having to resort to aftermarket systems (Split-second, etc...)?
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I'm sure this was mentioned someplace but how much pressure can a YJ handle without having to resort to aftermarket systems (Split-second, etc...)?
not really an answer to your question but it's not really worth the effort unless you run at least 5psi at which point you will need some sort of fuel management to compensate for the extra air.
there's some loss when you spin a turbo or a supercharger, so if you run low boost the difference in gain is less significant - imo not sure if it's worth it in that case.
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not really an answer to your question but it's not really worth the effort unless you run at least 5psi at which point you will need some sort of fuel management to compensate for the extra air.
there's some loss when you spin a turbo or a supercharger, so if you run low boost the difference in gain is less significant - imo not sure if it's worth it in that case.
I was wondering since it was said that Air Sierra was running only 6psi with no FMS.
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I was wondering since it was said that Air Sierra was running only 6psi with no FMS.
i don't know how he managed that, it's a mystery for me. but again, depends how fussy you are and how you drive most of the time - your engine will still run, closed loop you'll be most likely fine since even using larger injectors if you stay below 0 psi relative pressure your PCM will compensate, going in boost and open loop for that matter since you're using a stock map anything in boost will most likely be open loop, and if it isn't then you're way lean - that is a different story - how close to running the correct AFR it's hard to tell without a way to log and a wideband, anything else is guess work.
so just guessing here, if you tune it so you have enough gas for 6psi of boost you'll be safe for anything in between but too rich. If you're in closed loop and at 4psi of boost for example your AFR will be too lean for the resulting compression ration, chamber temps will go up and the side-effects associated to that.
i had that issue with mine (i was smoking black or get pinging when not in open loop) but in my case the s/c boost comes in and is pretty high at all ranges whereas with the turbo is more at the higher rpm - maybe that's the difference and you learn how to drive it to keep it in the correct operating range, not sure.
i would like to see a wideband o2 AFR, TPS, RPM and MAP log session for his setup - that way would be easier to understand how it actually works, w/o that it's pretty much guessing (his narrowband O2 output means very little).
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from my experience, with the bigger injecters your gonna run really rich. I would HIGHLY reccomend the FIC or split second. and for only 6lbs of boost #24 injectors are way to big.
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Well, stock on a TJ are 23.2 PSI.
if you just want the same AFR in open loop it comes down this way
stock injectors are 23.2lb/hr at 49psi TJ fuel pressure - this is when operating as normally aspirated at 14.7psi sea level absolute atmospheric pressure
for 6 psi of boost = 20.7psi absolute pressure => 40.82% increase in air quantity (assuming that there is no extra loss in your intake system) so that makes it for a required 32.67lb/hr at 49 psi fuel injector
resulting injector flow for 43.5 psi (3 bar) at which most injectors are rated would be 30.78lb/hr (EDIT: this is only relevant if the FPR has a vac/boost port, not applicable on stock TJ fuel rail - see the note on the bottom)
but you want to be richer for a turbo or s/charged applications, so 32 or even 33lb/hr would be ok
24lb/hr at 43.5psi means about 25.5lb/hr at the TJ fuel pressure of 49psi - this would be too lean for the amount of air at 6psi of boost.
not exactly 100% accurate but is pretty close approximation.
EDIT: just remember that the TJ does not have the vac port on the FPR since that is located in the fuel tank - what that means is that the fuel pressure will not increase with the amount of boost pressure so at 6psi boost the pressure differential between the fuel rail and the intake would be 43psi (the fuel pressure in the injectors will have to overcome the air pressure in the intake), so the injector required for the same AFR would be 33lb/hr at 43.5psi and needs to be higher if you need to lower the AFR (increase the amount of fuel).
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I just finished reading your entire thread after printing it....about to read it again with highlighter. Do you still have the drawing on the bracket? Also, I saw you were a fan of the pdf book on e-bay for a basic guideline, do you still have that as well?
TIA
What year is your Jeep and do you have AC? The e-bay pdf got me interested in turbo charging my YJ and it gives some basic info on how to do it. That being said, once I had a real good look at it I realized I could build a lot better set up. I did try his tuning methods but could not get my engine to run like it should from start up, idle and all the way through the entire rpm range. Its all in my thread on the different methods I tried that did not work very well. Buy the Spit Second PSC-1-002 don't waste your time with anything else. I would also buy an AFPR, Sharpxmen is building some nice AFPR, check with him. I will help you out anyway I can with your build, and Sharpxmen is well versed in forced induction, especially with the technical stuff.
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24lb/hr at 43.5psi means about 25.5lb/hr at the TJ fuel pressure of 49psi - this would be too lean for the amount of air at 6psi of boost.
not exactly 100% accurate but is pretty close approximation.
Yeah, I figured it would be too lean not rich. With the 32-3's, what happens when you're not on boost though? Wouldn't you run the risk of being too rich? This is where the FMS would be crucial?
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Yeah, I figured it would be too lean not rich. What happens when you're not on boost though? Wouldn't you run the risk of being too rich?
usually if you're not in boost you're in closed loop so the O2 feedback should take care of that - it could throw a code as in a unusually large correction factor had to be applied (EDIT: in most cases resetting the computer would make it re-learn the fuel trims and take care of the closed loop AFR)
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usually if you're not in boost you're in closed loop so the O2 feedback should take care of that - it could throw a code as in a unusually large correction factor had to be applied (EDIT: in most cases resetting the computer would make it re-learn the fuel trims and take care of the closed loop AFR)
Ok, that's right. Forgot about the closed loop situation.
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Hey guys, Chris here. I followed air sierra's build almost to a T. the only thing I don't have is an intercooler which will come soon. I took my jeep to a mechanic for a po135 code and couldn't figure out what was going on. I also had him check on an issue that I was having where the jeep when I first give it throttle it hesitates and then catches up to itself. So what he found....... key on engine off my map reads 4 volts. don't know why. Also, i'm running lean when pretty much any throttle is given. I to have the injectors that air sierra used. Please look at my build on http://www.reno4x4.com/forum/showthread.php/38135-Turbocharged-2.4L-for-me-TOO!!!!
I have put it in this so called "Learn Mode" several times. When it does it runs rough for a while and after a few days it smooths out. It does the same thing if you take off the battery for about 30 minutes.
I'm still having issues with the po135 code. It is a heater circuit malfunction code. His scanner said everything is working fine with the o2 sensors. Said that it is because of the aftermarket O2. So I bought one from Jeep and it was like 105 bucks. code came back up right after I put it in. Pissed off. Any advice on this would be great too.
Just so everyone knows this started out as a budget project and for parts that I accumulated i'm only into it about 800 not including any of the extra i've put in for diag. I'm trying to keep it as cheep as possible cause i'm limited on budget. I just want it to run good. I was under the understanding that this was a simple thing. Apparently not.
I will get dyno numbers for you guys but i want to make sure everything is good first. So do all of the piggy back systems need a program and need to be adjusted manually? I don't know anything about tuning.
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Hey guys, Chris here. I followed air sierra's build almost to a T. the only thing I don't have is an intercooler which will come soon. I took my jeep to a mechanic for a po135 code and couldn't figure out what was going on. I also had him check on an issue that I was having where the jeep when I first give it throttle it hesitates and then catches up to itself. So what he found....... key on engine off my map reads 4 volts. don't know why. Also, i'm running lean when pretty much any throttle is given. I to have the injectors that air sierra used. Please look at my build on http://www.reno4x4.com/forum/showthread.php/38135-Turbocharged-2.4L-for-me-TOO!!!!
I have put it in this so called "Learn Mode" several times. When it does it runs rough for a while and after a few days it smooths out. It does the same thing if you take off the battery for about 30 minutes.
I'm still having issues with the po135 code. It is a heater circuit malfunction code. His scanner said everything is working fine with the o2 sensors. Said that it is because of the aftermarket O2. So I bought one from Jeep and it was like 105 bucks. code came back up right after I put it in. Pissed off. Any advice on this would be great too.
Just so everyone knows this started out as a budget project and for parts that I accumulated i'm only into it about 800 not including any of the extra i've put in for diag. I'm trying to keep it as cheep as possible cause i'm limited on budget. I just want it to run good. I was under the understanding that this was a simple thing. Apparently not.
I will get dyno numbers for you guys but i want to make sure everything is good first. So do all of the piggy back systems need a program and need to be adjusted manually? I don't know anything about tuning.
i didn't read your build thread yet, i'll do when i get around to it. You mentioned an aftermarket O2 - which one is it and is it a wideband? can you log the mixture readings? I'll have a look at your thread and give you my 2 cents on it.
oh, welcome to the site
EDIT: too long of a thread - let's do it differently. Please summarize the mods - more specifically the following
- boost level
- approximately what rpm do you start to see boost (like 1psi) and at what rpm do you see full boost
- injector size
- aftermarket O2 (what kind, wideband or narrowband, logging and if yes provide a log sample)
- 1 bar MAP should read about 4.65 to 4.75v with the key on from what i remember but you might want to double check.
- any mods other than the injectors for fuel management?
- how many miles on the engine since you installed the turbo?
and we'll take it from there.
Jeffy (the site admin/owner) might split this into your own thread, just a heads up - no big deal, he keeps things organized that way.
EDIT2: or moving it here in the turbo thread :lol:
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Merged the "Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger? " with the turbo Thread so it doesn't get lost.
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The boost level is 6psi max, it starts to build boost almost instantly and its at full boost around 2500 i would say. depends on the amount of throttle i give it. The aftermarket 02 I bought was a bosch direct replacement narrowband 02. I don't have log readings.
The injector size is 27#
Yes that is what the Map is reading. Does it just read that to begin with then go from there. I wish I was there when the mechanic was going thru all this. I like to learn things that way.
There are no other mods.
I have only had the turbo on for about a month and a half. maybe 1800 miles.
thanks for your help guys.
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The boost level is 6psi max, it starts to build boost almost instantly and its at full boost around 2500 i would say. depends on the amount of throttle i give it. The aftermarket 02 I bought was a bosch direct replacement narrowband 02. I don't have log readings.
The injector size is 27#
Yes that is what the Map is reading. Does it just read that to begin with then go from there. I wish I was there when the mechanic was going thru all this. I like to learn things that way.
There are no other mods.
I have only had the turbo on for about a month and a half. maybe 1800 miles.
thanks for your help guys.
i need to know the pressure the injectors are rated at or the P/N of the injector.
first glance if you make 6psi at 2500 rpm i would say it's too early (too low rpm) to get away without a 2 bar map. your MAP would read all the range from 0psi boost to 6psi boost as the same pressure as it's limited to 1 bar absolute (which is basically 0 psi boost) so there is no way to adjust for the extra air.
before we get into actual numbers (that's once i get your injector rating) think of it this way - if let's assume that you sized your injectors properly and you have the right amount of fuel for 6psi of boost to be at 12 AFR at 2500 rpm with your throttle fully open then when you are about 1/2 throttle (just an example, not saying that's exactly it) let's assume you have 0 psi boost - that means you're getting the same amount of fuel potentially (i'll explain why potentially later) for 40% less air (14.7 absolute pressure at sea level means 0psi of boost, 20.7 abs pressure is for 6psi of boost) - that means that roughly your AFR in that case is 40% richer so that makes it about 8.5 air fuel ratio - that is way too much fuel - in that scenario the PCM (the efi computer) will try to adjust the AFR based on the O2 feedback, however I don't think the trims would work for that much range so that might be one of the issues (that's what i meant by potentially earlier since in closed loop your AFR would be corrected by the O2 feedback).
there is also the rest of the range where you are at WOT (between idle and 2500rpm) where you don't make 6psi of boost, so in that case you're in open loop and the O2 feedback does not count so you'd be getting the rich condition all the way thru (this is an even worst case scenario).
once i get your injector size at the rated pressure we can run some actual numbers.
let me know if this makes sense or if you have any questions for all the above.
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Wow did not know this thread is 18 pages long!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Wow did not know this thread is 18 pages long!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was 11 but two threads got combined. You've been away too long. :lol:
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It makes sense but its running lean. the part number for the injectors is 1W7EAA from www.fiveomotorsport.com. you will have to call them cause they don't list the part on their web site. The 2500 is just an approximation. I have to look down to see my boost gauge and take my eyes off the tach. (Cause of where its placed, didn't know they make gauge pillars for tjs) And its probably at full throttle.
I spoke to my mechanic today. said that a reason that the code is coming up is that its constantly lean so the pcm thinks the 02 is bad. thought?
I what your thinking with the math is that maybe my injectors are not sized correctly. Bigger injectors will make up for the map not reading past 1 bar. Does altitude make any difference? cause i'm at about 2500 ft.
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it is most likely lean as my guess is the injectors are 27lb/hr at 43.5psi. I don't have time right now but i will get back to you later on this with some specific numbers.
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they are the same ones as air sierra, his jeep ran fine with them. My question is what is different between our jeeps that mine won't run right?
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they are the same ones as air sierra, his jeep ran fine with them. My question is what is different between our jeeps that mine won't run right?
i guess that's between Air Sierra and yourself to figure out. Forgot to ask you, since yours is a 2.4L and i don't know the specifics on that EFI - what is your fuel pressure and stock injector size? does yours have a fuel pressure regulator on the rail or is it in the tank like on the previous TJs (and if it's on the rail does it have a vacuum port)?
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Merged the "Re: Throttle body position. Before or after charger? " with the turbo Thread so it doesn't get lost.
Looks like my thread was eaten by bigger company. :'(
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fuel pressure is 49 psi, stock injector is 22#, fuel regulator is on the rail with no vacuum port. there isn't a vacuum port on any part of the fuel rail. Made testing the fuel pressure a pain cause I had to take it to a shop that could.
question. Because my turbo does not have an intercooler. Is it throwing off my IAT sensor making it run lean cause its getting hot air right from the turbo into the manifold. Just thought of this this morning. Maybe i'm off.
I spoke to a dyno tuning shop today about my jeep. Told him what I was doing and what was going on. I told him I was thinking about the split second ftc1 piggyback and he was pretty hesitant cause he has had bad experiences with one but he was running 32 lbs of boost on a v8. He said it might work with my setup and told me to get it and he can help me tune it. 300 bucks for the tune with dyno pulls. could get you guys some numbers. What do you guys think?????
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fuel pressure is 49 psi, stock injector is 22#, fuel regulator is on the rail with no vacuum port. there isn't a vacuum port on any part of the fuel rail. Made testing the fuel pressure a pain cause I had to take it to a shop that could.
question. Because my turbo does not have an intercooler. Is it throwing off my IAT sensor making it run lean cause its getting hot air right from the turbo into the manifold. Just thought of this this morning. Maybe i'm off.
I spoke to a dyno tuning shop today about my jeep. Told him what I was doing and what was going on. I told him I was thinking about the split second ftc1 piggyback and he was pretty hesitant cause he has had bad experiences with one but he was running 32 lbs of boost on a v8. He said it might work with my setup and told me to get it and he can help me tune it. 300 bucks for the tune with dyno pulls. could get you guys some numbers. What do you guys think?????
rough calculation here considering that the stock injectors are 22lb/hr at 49psi - like i said before you are roughly getting about 40% more air at 6psi of boost (all this at sea level) so you should have roughly 30.8lb/hr injectors - that is at the resulting fuel pressure which is the differential between the fuel rail and the intake manifold pressure since you have no vac/boost port on the fuel regulator (49psi-6psi=43psi) - but also consider that you are in boost so you want to be on the rich side and not like the stock afr which is for normally aspirated engines not to mention the fact that you don't have an intercooler (hotter air) - so i'd say another 10% would be a safe bet - 32 to 34 lb/hr at 43.5psi fuel pressure would probably work. All that is at WOT but most likely you'll have problems with the intermediate stages since you're not recalibrating the MAP sensor. With your injectors if they are 27lb/hr at 43.5psi my guess is that your engine runs at it's best starting around 2 psi up to about 4 after which you're lean, before that you're probably rich.
I don't think the Split second on it's own will do, my guess is that you will need also larger injectors but you could start with the piggyback first and see what the dyno shop tells you.
i can't remember where i read this but one of the companies that was making a mechanical centrifugal supercharger for Jeeps was recommending moving the IAT sensor ahead of the compressor, but in that case you might get pinging unless you go really rich and maybe have an intercooler installed. st.chevrolet (Sean) ended up with a methanol/water injection for chemical intercooling.
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fuel regulator is on the rail with no vacuum port.
I think you are mistaken. Fuel pressure regulator is in the tank, there is no return line on 2.4. The thing which looks like regulator and stands on rail is just a compensator for fuel pressure loss in the moment when injectors open.
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I think you are mistaken. Fuel pressure regulator is in the tank, there is no return line on 2.4. The thing which looks like regulator and stands on rail is just a compensator for fuel pressure loss in the moment when injectors open.
you're right, that's probably the dampener - seems that the fuel system is the same as the 2.5L TJ with the exception of injectors which are a tad smaller on the 2.4L (if they are 22lb/hr at 49psi)
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So if its in the tank can I adjust it? Get some more pressure to the injectors?
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So if its in the tank can I adjust it? Get some more pressure to the injectors?
nope, and would not do you much good for 2 reasons:
1. you start at 49 psi which is high already
2. the flow is directly proportional with the pressure squared (psi^2) so that means for example to bring your 27lb/hr at 43.5psi to 32lb/hr you need 61psi, but you also need to overcome the 6psi boost in the intake manifold so that would make it 67psi total, that is quite high for the stock pump and also you might have some issues with the injectors running at 61psi (they might or might not atomize the fuel properly)
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I see. Well since the piggyback comes with a new map sensor shouldn't will i need to get bigger fuel injectors?
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I see. Well since the piggyback comes with a new map sensor shouldn't will i need to get bigger fuel injectors?
i answered that a few posts back (the answer is yes you will need bigger injectors anyway)
EDIT: here's a good read http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/Fuel-Engine_in_Boost_using_2-bar_Map_Sensor.pdf
and this one http://www.gadgetonline.com/U-Tune.pdf
will give you a good light on tuning and challenges when moving from a normally aspirated to a forced induction setup.
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One of a must recommendations for turbo setup on Dodge forum is Walboro 255 lph High Volume Fuel Pump. They also recommend 30 lb injectors.
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awesome. another 150 for more injectors. Anyone hiring cause I need to make more money lol. I'm headed to the Casino. Who's with me?!!! I'll check those sights out. Thanks
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awesome. another 150 for more injectors. Anyone hiring cause I need to make more money lol. I'm headed to the Casino. Who's with me?!!! I'll check those sights out. Thanks
did you ask the dyno guys how much for 1 pull so you can baseline? they can also tell you how much lean or rich and so on (they'll give you a printout).
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You definitely need to cool down the charge air from the turbo! That is one thing Air Sierra is doing
(intercooler) that you are not, it makes a HUGE difference. Have you dropped the heat range of your
plugs a couple ranges colder? Although my OBD1 2.5 ECU is different than yours I am running injectors
similar in size to the injectors you have in conjunction with water/methanol injection. I have had no
problems with leaning out whatsoever since I added the water/methanol and I run 8# of boost without
pulling timing. Water/methanol injection will cool your charge air down more than an intercooler plus give
you a much higher octane rating.
Here are two articles on water/methanol injection:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a10/Knock-Knock.-Who-is-the-there...-Detonation!/article_info.html
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The dyno is included in the tuning price. I'm sure they will do a baseline pull then go from there. The links for the water meth injection didn't work on my computer. Does that inject right into the intake? How much does that cost? I have a stock eclipse intercooler that I will use and mount it inside the engine compartment. It won't be that great but it will be something. I might be able to get my hands on two of them and possibly put them both in. We'll see if there is enough room. gonna be a couple weeks out for the tune
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The dyno is included in the tuning price. I'm sure they will do a baseline pull then go from there. The links for the water meth injection didn't work on my computer. Does that inject right into the intake? How much does that cost? I have a stock eclipse intercooler that I will use and mount it inside the engine compartment. It won't be that great but it will be something. I might be able to get my hands on two of them and possibly put them both in. We'll see if there is enough room. gonna be a couple weeks out for the tune
for 6psi you're probably fine with just 1 of them
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The dyno is included in the tuning price. I'm sure they will do a baseline pull then go from there. The links for the water meth injection didn't work on my computer. Does that inject right into the intake? How much does that cost? I have a stock eclipse intercooler that I will use and mount it inside the engine compartment. It won't be that great but it will be something. I might be able to get my hands on two of them and possibly put them both in. We'll see if there is enough room. gonna be a couple weeks out for the tune
Try this: www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com and read the "116+ Octane With Water Injection" and the "Knock Knock....Who's There?" link in that article.
It injects into the charge air pipe approx 6" before the throttle body on my setup. For the stage 1 kit from AIS its $239.00 US. I run the 1gph nozzle and inject -30 or -40 windshield washer fluid.
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Right now on ebay you can get a water/methanol injection kit from Cooling Mist for $160.00 + $32.00 shipping.
150psi pump, boost activated adjustable switch, check valve, nozzle, tubing, wire & fuse mounting hardware.
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Windshield washer fluid? Interesting. That is a good price. I got a wrx top mount intercooler that will work pretty good. Just have to do a slight patch job on the plastic end piece with some resin. Not a big deal. going to get it in this weekend hopefully. should I use water/meth injection in conjunction with intercooler?
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Windshield washer fluid? Interesting. That is a good price. I got a wrx top mount intercooler that will work pretty good. Just have to do a slight patch job on the plastic end piece with some resin. Not a big deal. going to get it in this weekend hopefully. should I use water/meth injection in conjunction with intercooler?
you can use both, there's no harm in that
where are you going to mount the intercooler?
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Windshield washer fluid? Interesting. That is a good price. I got a wrx top mount intercooler that will work pretty good. Just have to do a slight patch job on the plastic end piece with some resin. Not a big deal. going to get it in this weekend hopefully. should I use water/meth injection in conjunction with intercooler?
Yes windshield washer fluid, make sure to read the label to make sure it has methyl alcohol some brands have a type of anti-freeze instead. Water/meth. and an intercooler even better, especially during the really hot weather we get. I live approx 300 mi. north of you.
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I Live in spokane wa. you would be in canada then. I am going to put the intercooler so that it barely catches the fan maybe in front of the motor. that way it will still catch a draft when i'm not going very fast. We'll see. In the middle of a remodel so time is short some nights. I'll see about working some overtime at work to get the water/meth injection too.
Just a side note. Anyone catch the latest "dangerous drives" episode? It was about AEV's new test jeep. They went on a 500 mile trip in Moab Utah to test it out. Of course they had their Jeep Brute with the Hemi. I think all 3 jeeps they had had hemi's. I was drooling the entire show. I would love to put a hemi in my jeep.
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I Live in spokane wa. you would be in canada then. I am going to put the intercooler so that it barely catches the fan maybe in front of the motor. that way it will still catch a draft when i'm not going very fast.
put it in front of the rad, otherwise you'll heat up the air when you're not in boost or at low boost levels (your intercooler would be exposed to the hot air coming thru the rad).
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put it in front of the rad, otherwise you'll heat up the air when you're not in boost or at low boost levels (your intercooler would be exposed to the hot air coming thru the rad).
X2
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Its a space issue. I have to see if it fits and where to route the piping. Don't be surprised with a pic of a PVC piped intake at first lol. But ya that would be the ideal place to put on. St.chevy, you ever come to the states?
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Its a space issue. I have to see if it fits and where to route the piping. Don't be surprised with a pic of a PVC piped intake at first lol. But ya that would be the ideal place to put on. St.chevy, you ever come to the states?
this is what i ended up with
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/SC_Works/Mount_Shroud_Intercooler_Radiator/Rad_IC_Mount_AllWelded_RadICtest_bo.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/SC_Works/Mount_Shroud_Intercooler_Radiator/IC_Mount_TestFit_09.jpg)
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Right now on ebay you can get a water/methanol injection kit from Cooling Mist for $160.00 + $32.00 shipping.
150psi pump, boost activated adjustable switch, check valve, nozzle, tubing, wire & fuse mounting hardware.
I orderded the cooling mist kit, they ask, "Tell us your horsepower or receive the standard 380 CC injector." What injector are you running?
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I orderded the cooling mist kit, they ask, "Tell us your horsepower or receive the standard 380 CC injector." What injector are you running?
My injector would be close to their 90cc injector.
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I think I'm getting close to starting my turbo build. I have been gathering parts for close to a month and should be pretty close to jumping off. Here is my list so far, if I have missed something please let me know.
1) airesearch T3 from '81 benz
2) manuel boost controller
3) blow off valve
4) methanol / water injection
5) boost gauge
6) oil supply and return lines
7) psc1-002
Items that I plan to get or I'm working on:
1) AFR
2) injectors
3) piping
4) heat wrap
5) turbo mount
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I think I'm getting close to starting my turbo build. I have been gathering parts for close to a month and should be pretty close to jumping off. Here is my list so far, if I have missed something please let me know.
1) airesearch T3 from '81 benz
2) manuel boost controller
3) blow off valve
4) methanol / water injection
5) boost gauge
6) oil supply and return lines
7) psc1-002
Items that I plan to get or I'm working on:
1) AFR
2) injectors
3) piping
4) heat wrap
5) turbo mount
Did you get the PM I sent you regarding the water/meth injector?
You can add - adjustable fuel pressure regulator (talk to Sharpxmen)
Air filter,colder plugs
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You can add - adjustable fuel pressure regulator (talk to Sharpxmen)
he did, got a couple in the works, should have it shipped out to him this week
Air filter,colder plugs
x2
plugs 2 levels colder
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Did you get the PM I sent you regarding the water/meth injector?
You can add - adjustable fuel pressure regulator (talk to Sharpxmen)
Air filter,colder plugs
I did get your message and had them send me the 90cc injector. So other than a few minor things I should be about ready to go. What size pipe are you running on the iduction side?
he did, got a couple in the works, should have it shipped out to him this week
x2
plugs 2 levels colder
Thank you both for all the knowledge you have shared with me thus far!
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What size pipe are you running on the iduction side?
i am using 3'' to the filter and 2.5'' after that (although i want to upgrade to a larger ID from the filter to the t/b since my t/b is 64mm and the 2.5'' pipe is a hair below 60)
In your case i would at a minimum match whatever your turbo inlet is (at the tip, not at he turbine). You should be good with 2.5'' and at the most 3'', anything over would result in negligible gains for the CFM you would pull with 6psi of boost (or even 8) for the size of the motor.
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On the filter side I matched the pipe to the turbo inlet size and then had the pipe expanded to match a K&N I already had. For the turbo outlet pipe I matched the pipe to the TB size ( I have the 4.0 TB) and used a silicone reducer right at the turbo to step it down to the turbo outlet size. You can see the pics in my thread.
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This may seem like a stupid question but, how do I go about getting a colder spark plug?
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This may seem like a stupid question but, how do I go about getting a colder spark plug?
I bought NGK ZFR7F which have the same specs as the stock ones other than being 2 numbers colder, stock ones are 5 these are 7, they go backwards - the lower the number the hotter the plug - the colder the plug the faster it removes heat from the chamber.
$2.50 each on ebay + about $4 for shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380084512032&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT
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Ok I am new to this site and have spent the last 2 days searching about turbo's and I want to know what you guys think about this turbo kit http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-TJ-T3T4-Turbo-Charger-Kit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3efb5a0355QQitemZ270504952661QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Sorry if this has been covered before but I couldn't find it. It seems like a pretty complete kit to me. Thanks for the help
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Ok I am new to this site and have spent the last 2 days searching about turbo's and I want to know what you guys think about this turbo kit http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-TJ-T3T4-Turbo-Charger-Kit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3efb5a0355QQitemZ270504952661QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Sorry if this has been covered before but I couldn't find it. It seems like a pretty complete kit to me. Thanks for the help
far from complete and probably with parts that you don't need or never use - not sure why they call it TJ kit as there is nothing in there for TJ - just a bunch of parts (made in China most likely) that a street tuner would use put together in one package.
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I've helped build several turbo cars. If you want success, lack of issues, and a decent running engine, start with a name brand stand alone engine management kit, then the turbo....
Dave
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far from complete and probably with parts that you don't need or never use - not sure why they call it TJ kit as there is nothing in there for TJ - just a bunch of parts (made in China most likely) that a street tuner would use put together in one package.
X2
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I've helped build several turbo cars. If you want success, lack of issues, and a decent running engine, start with a name brand stand alone engine management kit, then the turbo....
Dave
i think MSD has some standalone MPFI systems (ECU and harness only) that work for 4/6/8 cylinders and they range from $1,200 to about $1,600 - not sure how well they work and if you can use the stock sensors (like crank, cam, tps, IAT, CTS - map will work but for forced induction you'll need one that matches the boost most likely 2bar in this case).
and there's always Megasquirt and the piggybacks for a cheaper alternative.
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Ok. Jeep is at the dyno shop and is getting tuned tomorrow. I'm so excited. I'll get you guys some numbers on what its running. For those of you who missed it, i'm having the ftc1 installed to be able to tune the motor. I'll take some pics and stuff for you guys too.
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Ok. Jeep is at the dyno shop and is getting tuned tomorrow. I'm so excited. I'll get you guys some numbers on what its running. For those of you who missed it, i'm having the ftc1 installed to be able to tune the motor. I'll take some pics and stuff for you guys too.
Cool! Be interesting to see the results.
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Ok. Jeep is at the dyno shop and is getting tuned tomorrow. I'm so excited. I'll get you guys some numbers on what its running. For those of you who missed it, i'm having the ftc1 installed to be able to tune the motor. I'll take some pics and stuff for you guys too.
awesome :dance: , dying to hear how it goes, get yourself ready for lot of questions :naughty: - did you end up with new injectors too or you just do the FTC1 first? keep us posted
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i think MSD has some standalone MPFI systems (ECU and harness only) that work for 4/6/8 cylinders and they range from $1,200 to about $1,600 - not sure how well they work and if you can use the stock sensors (like crank, cam, tps, IAT, CTS - map will work but for forced induction you'll need one that matches the boost most likely 2bar in this case).
and there's always Megasquirt and the piggybacks for a cheaper alternative.
Unless you completely assemble the unit yourself, I question the Mega squirt as cheap,
I know a dozen guys using it on race cars and none of them were able to get them full
operational for under about 1500 bucks. There are parts like oversize injectors,
good MAP units, wide-band 02 that just add $$. And in the end they are all "tweaky"
weird little tuning issues that come and go, nothing major, no blown engines or that
kind of thing they just get "off" and need rebooted to clear them up.
An SDS is the simplest best performing unit Ive seen under under $2000.
Ive installed MOtec and Electromotive, both run north of 3000 for parts.
Another note, the SDS took the least Dyno time to tune on the two I've installed, < 2 hours.
Just another couple cents worth...
Dave
I've seen 1 street tuned in a 1 day track event.
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Ok. Jeep is at the dyno shop and is getting tuned tomorrow. I'm so excited. I'll get you guys some numbers on what its running. For those of you who missed it, i'm having the ftc1 installed to be able to tune the motor. I'll take some pics and stuff for you guys too.
so how did it go - I keep checking this thread so i don't miss the update :smokes:
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The jeep is still at the shop. The guy didnt even get to it till friday. then he realized that the instructions that came with ftc1 is for a 95 and older. I called splitsecond and they said they dont have instructions for the 2.4. The shop apparently cant get a wiring diagram for my jeep. anyone know where to find one?
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The jeep is still at the shop. The guy didnt even get to it till friday. then he realized that the instructions that came with ftc1 is for a 95 and older. I called splitsecond and they said they dont have instructions for the 2.4. The shop apparently cant get a wiring diagram for my jeep. anyone know where to find one?
Chris if the FTC-1 can not be used with your Jeep I would recommend going with the AEM FIC controller. It's also a PC programmable piggy back controller that allows you to retard timing and add fuel on any engine even the latest OBDII. From what i understand it was developed specifically to work with Chrysler/Dodge/jeep ECUs and has more capabilities than any other piggy back units, they also have a "patch" harness and directions to allow you to patch into your factory harness. The cost of the AEM FIC with the patch harness is approx the same as the FTC-1.
Sean
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This one is designed for chrysler as well. my guess is that no one has ordered one for my motor yet cause the guy didnt know that mine has a 2.4. doesnt seem like the brightest crayon.
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The jeep is still at the shop. The guy didnt even get to it till friday. then he realized that the instructions that came with ftc1 is for a 95 and older. I called splitsecond and they said they dont have instructions for the 2.4. The shop apparently cant get a wiring diagram for my jeep. anyone know where to find one?
geez, they should be able to figure it out
there are 3 connections that are needed (aside the switched 12v and ground)
Crank sensor
Cam Sensor
MAP connection (this is replacing the stock MAP signal)
they can check the wire colors and voltages at the connectors for these sensors and then splice in to the crank and cam signal ones. The discovery process should take like 15 min.
but in the meantime here's the connections for the 2.4L PCM and sensors
Cam sensor
Orange wire - 5v supply
Black/Light Blue - Sensor Ground
Tan/Yellow - sensor signal
Crank sensor
Orange wire - 5v supply
Black/Light Blue - Sensor Ground
Grey/Black - sensor signal
MAP Sensor
Orange wire - 5v supply
Black/Light Blue - Sensor Ground
Dark Green/Red- sensor signal
PCM Connectors (if you want to splice there so you don't run a bunch of wires thru the engine bay)
Black Connector (out of the 3 you have on the PCM):
Pin 4 - Black/Light Blue - Sensor Ground (this will be connected to the FTC1 ground)
Pin 8 - Grey/Black - Crankshaft position sensor signal (this one will need to be cut and connected to the 2 wires on FTC1)
Pin 13 - Yellow/Red - Fused ignition switch output (will supply 12v to the FTC1)
Pin 18 - Tan Yellow - Camshaft Position Sensor Signal (i think this is only a tap in and will supply the rpm signal to the FTC1, can't remember exactly so it could be that needs to be cut as well - EDIT: i just looked, needs to be cut and connected to the 2 cam sensor wires on the FTC1)
Pin 27 - Dark Green/Red - MAP Sensor Signal (this will be cut and the MAP signal output from the FTC1 will go to the portion connected to the PCM)
the only one i'm not sure about is pin 13 - yellow/red 12v - they will have to verify that it supplies 12v when ignition is on but also when you crank the engine.
this is all you need, make sure they connect the FTC1 ground to the sensor ground and not the vehicle ground.
Chris if the FTC-1 can not be used with your Jeep I would recommend going with the AEM FIC controller. It's also a PC programmable piggy back controller that allows you to retard timing and add fuel on any engine even the latest OBDII. From what i understand it was developed specifically to work with Chrysler/Dodge/jeep ECUs and has more capabilities than any other piggy back units, they also have a "patch" harness and directions to allow you to patch into your factory harness. The cost of the AEM FIC with the patch harness is approx the same as the FTC-1.
Sean
yeah the FI/C would be a better choice as it also has O2 signal modifier from what i remember.
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Scratch Pin 13 and use this
Pin 2 - Dark Blue/White - Fused ignition switched output (run-start)
I remembered one thing that you might want to consider - In some instances (not sure if that is the case with your engine) the PCM will power the MAP sensor after the engine is stopped to baseline the atmospheric pressure - because of that the 12v switched output might not be suitable to power the FTC1, so you might need a relay controlled by the MAP sensor 5v supply and powered directly from 12v (same permanent connection as for the PCM)
In that case use these connections
Relay pins: 85 and 86 solenoid control, 30 12v supply, 87 12v output
Connect Relay pin 86 to ground
connect Relay pin 85 to 5v sensor supply PCM Pin 17 Orange wire
Connect Relay pin 30 to 12v PCM Pin 22 Red/White wire
Connect Relay pin 87 to FTC1 12v (it's the Red wire on FTC1).
EDIT: all these wire colors are for a 2003 TJ 2.4L, not sure what year is yours and I hope they did not change the wire colors between years like they did with the YJ. Connector Pins should be the same though.
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good thing mine is a 03 then lol. Thanks for the info. im getting my jeep back today while i figure this out. hopefully the guys can figure it out with your info. i probably could too.
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good thing mine is a 03 then lol. Thanks for the info. im getting my jeep back today while i figure this out. hopefully the guys can figure it out with your info. i probably could too.
yeah, it's pretty straight forward once you have the wire colors figured out, that's what i did on mine - made an excel spreadsheet with all the connections and wire colors from FTC1 and PCM, then i used a metripac 10 pin connector to splice into the PCM harness - keeping that plugged in would have the harness function as stock - i used 2 other male/female connectors to make the connections between the vehicle harness and my FTC1, LC-1 and SSI-4 (these last 2 are from Innovate) and then disconnect the one on the PCM harness and connect the 2 from the aftermarket devices there, makes it a lot easier to switch between stock and custom setup.
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I'm glad someone here is organized. When I hook it up can I run it without a program running on the controller?
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I'm glad someone here is organized. When I hook it up can I run it without a program running on the controller?
the R4 software is only used to upload the MAP voltage output and ignition timing retard. It can also be used to monitor the MAP/RPM readings and cell matching (in the 2 tables will highlight the cell that is in use at the specific moment in time based on MAP reading and RPM). Once you have it programmed there is no need to have a laptop hooked up unless you want to reprogram the FTC1.
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So, still not hooked up. Having trouble finding the time to do it. I'm hoping this weekend.
Sharp- after I hook up all the wires do I need to install a base program to the box or can I start my jeep?
What do you guys think of just baggin the whole thing and going with a V8. Someone was talking to me about putting a 4.7 magnum out of a dodge dakota in it. Just thinkin for what i've put into it so far I could have done a V8 if I found a good donor for cheep. Pros? cons?
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So, still not hooked up. Having trouble finding the time to do it. I'm hoping this weekend.
Sharp- after I hook up all the wires do I need to install a base program to the box or can I start my jeep?
What do you guys think of just baggin the whole thing and going with a V8. Someone was talking to me about putting a 4.7 magnum out of a dodge dakota in it. Just thinkin for what i've put into it so far I could have done a V8 if I found a good donor for cheep. Pros? cons?
they would've sent you a pre-defined fuel and advance map uploaded in the device based on your application. When you first start the software create a new user and save the current map for future reference (you'll need to download it off the device). After that you can start your engine and start tuning (or take it to the dyno shop like you planned, otherwise you'll need a wideband O2 and some logging capabilities for MAP sensor and AFR). what wires do you have on your FTC1 (colors and description) and what version is it?
can't speak for the V8, but will most likely cost you more than you expect when you add all the other things like tranny, t-case, exhaust, driveshafts, engine and tranny mounts, all the electronics and wiring that you will need, gauges (tacho and speedo), radiator - just some that come to mind right now, i'm sure there's more.
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Ya. If I did the v8 swap I would find a donor dodge. harness is just a matter of changing a few sensors and plugs to work with my own gauges. but I would have everything I need off the donor vehicle. I don't know. just a thought. check out this site-- http://www.burnsvilleoffroad.com/articles/00_12.aspx
I have ftc1-019b
Red Wire (b+)- fused ignition switch output
black (b-) - sensor ground
violet - map sensor signal
grey- leading to crank sensor
grey/black- leading to pin 24(crank sensor input)
tan- leading to cam sensor
tan/yellow-leading to pin 44(cam sensor input)
vacuum line -- Where to put for best reading?
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Ya. If I did the v8 swap I would find a donor dodge. harness is just a matter of changing a few sensors and plugs to work with my own gauges. but I would have everything I need off the donor vehicle. I don't know. just a thought. check out this site-- http://www.burnsvilleoffroad.com/articles/00_12.aspx
I have ftc1-019b
Red Wire (b+)- fused ignition switch output
black (b-) - sensor ground
violet - map sensor signal
grey- leading to crank sensor
grey/black- leading to pin 24(crank sensor input)
tan- leading to cam sensor
tan/yellow-leading to pin 44(cam sensor input)
vacuum line -- Where to put for best reading?
put the vac line exactly where your current MAP sensor is - and if it is on the t/b you can take it off and use that port. you can also use a T type fitting to split one of the vac ports in the intake manifold from right under the t/b.
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ok sounds good. I'm sitting here with the controller in my lap and i am noticing an orange wire and a yellow/black wire that I don't know what they go to. nothing on the instructions for those wires
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I just cross referenced the pin out connections and came up with what you have.
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ok sounds good. I'm sitting here with the controller in my lap and i am noticing an orange wire and a yellow/black wire that I don't know what they go to. nothing on the instructions for those wires
yellow/black is for tach signal but in your case you use the cam signal and you set the engine as 1 cyl 4 stroke in the software (if i remember correctly, should be on your install sheet)
orange is for an external load - can control a relay so you can for example run a alcohol or methanol injection system or a signal modifier trigger (like if you want to alter the o2 sensor output) - this can be triggered based on an rpm and pressure basis as and you set it up under options > output settings > Output B
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oh ok. thanks. I'll just cap them off. thanks for your help
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oh ok. thanks. I'll just cap them off. thanks for your help
no problem
get it hooked up and take it to the dyno - you're like right there. My guess is that they'll tell you to get bigger injectors, but might as well finish it now and if you're not happy get the 4.7L and sell your setup.
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...and if you're not happy get the 4.7L and sell your setup.
No!!! Don't do it. So far, your set up is the fist made for TJ in a proper way. Finish it Chris, I'm sure there will be followers, at least one in Moscow ;)
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I can't remember if I told you guys this in the past threads but i'm also still having a problem with a 02 heater circuit code. p0135. I can't figure it out. I've bought 3 02 sensors and all anyone can tell me is that it is an 02 problem. I had it diagnosed and that guy told me to buy one from jeep(cost a pretty penny). I'm lost. I feel i can't move forward without that fixed. Air sierra never had this problem so I'm guessing that it isn't because of not having the pre-cat. i'm still trying to figure out the intercooler as well. and i already have bigger injectors. 27# vs. 22#. i can smell how rich it is when i'm idling.
Thoughts? Ideas?
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I can't remember if I told you guys this in the past threads but i'm also still having a problem with a 02 heater circuit code. p0135. I can't figure it out. I've bought 3 02 sensors and all anyone can tell me is that it is an 02 problem. I had it diagnosed and that guy told me to buy one from jeep(cost a pretty penny). I'm lost. I feel i can't move forward without that fixed. Air sierra never had this problem so I'm guessing that it isn't because of not having the pre-cat. i'm still trying to figure out the intercooler as well. and i already have bigger injectors. 27# vs. 22#. i can smell how rich it is when i'm idling.
Thoughts? Ideas?
P0135 Oxygen Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1 Sensor 1) - not sure why you would get that, maybe a bad ground but dunno to be honest.
if it runs rich at idle is either the O2 sensor or you should get a too large afr correction factor error code (means the PCM cannot adjust the afr that much, so the fuel trim is outside the acceptable range) - one thing is to do a full computer reset (not sure how you do it on your year of vehicle), the other thing is the FTC1 will allow you to adjust the MAP sensor output to match the required fuel quantity (tricking the PCM in thinking it needs less fuel by reporting a lower MAP reading) and in that case the fuel trim should come back within the normal range.
EDIT: an ODB2 scanner will allow you to monitor the fuel trims, that is one of the ways the Split Second recommends tuning your unit - check the Underdog Racing Development engine tuning guide on their site.
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@chrisjsmith4: any updates?
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No updates. i've been lazy lately. I ran a half marathon yesterday and have been training for the last several weeks. Now I have time in the afternoons to do stuff. My work load will also be decreasing. I have also accrued enough money to get the RE 3.5 basic lift and 32-11.5 tires for it. just need to get work on the jeep. i'll keep you guys posted
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No updates. i've been lazy lately. I ran a half marathon yesterday and have been training for the last several weeks. Now I have time in the afternoons to do stuff. My work load will also be decreasing. I have also accrued enough money to get the RE 3.5 basic lift and 32-11.5 tires for it. just need to get work on the jeep. i'll keep you guys posted
dunno about you but last time i checked running 1/2 marathon was not in the lazy isle :lol:
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True. I got my intercooler in today. It is completely redneck but thats ok. I used a top mount intercooler off a wrx and put it where the stock intake sits. probably not going to do any good there but it something. i should do the set up like airsierra. his looked nice. I also checked the ground on the O2 and had tone. It also has 13 volts going to it and its signal varied between .2 and .9 is this right? I wonder if i should try plugging in a different ecu if i can find one. maybe mine has gone haywire.
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True. I got my intercooler in today. It is completely redneck but thats ok. I used a top mount intercooler off a wrx and put it where the stock intake sits. probably not going to do any good there but it something. i should do the set up like airsierra. his looked nice. I also checked the ground on the O2 and had tone. It also has 13 volts going to it and its signal varied between .2 and .9 is this right? I wonder if i should try plugging in a different ecu if i can find one. maybe mine has gone haywire.
i think it goes from .05 to .95 but .2 to .9 sounds about right. there are 2 grounds on the O2, the thicker wire one is the heater ground, the other one (which i think is black/blue) is the sensor ground. I know you have 2 O2 sensors, did you check both?
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I didnt check both. I think only one ground grounds at the battery. all 4 wires are the same size. one wrie is fused relay. one is sensor ground. ground then sensor signal. thats what the pdf said
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I didnt check both. I think only one ground grounds at the battery. all 4 wires are the same size. one wrie is fused relay. one is sensor ground. ground then sensor signal. thats what the pdf said
did you replace both O2 sensors (you said you replaced the O2 twice, not sure if that meant both or the same one twice).
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replaced the same one i think 3 times
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replaced the same one i think 3 times
use one of the ones you took out and replace the second one - maybe that's the one with the issue and you were replacing the one that was fine - just a thought
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I'll see if one will fit. I know there are two different part numbers. its cooling down right now. i'll check in a bit
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It won't work. The plugs are different. i'll have to buy another one which sucks.But I did test the ground which had tone so thats not it.
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Took the Jeep back to the evil man and ran some more tests. He ran me through the tests on checking why the heater circuit code is tripped. Everything checks out fine so he recommends I get the PCM flashed or getting a new one. New ones are 300 and to flash is 80. I think I'll go with the flash. I'll have the fuel controller in this weekend and i'll take pics . Finally have time to get some stuff done.
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Took the Jeep back to the evil man and ran some more tests. He ran me through the tests on checking why the heater circuit code is tripped. Everything checks out fine so he recommends I get the PCM flashed or getting a new one. New ones are 300 and to flash is 80. I think I'll go with the flash. I'll have the fuel controller in this weekend and i'll take pics . Finally have time to get some stuff done.
Try eBay for the ECU; I found one for my Jeep for $50 or so...
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Took the Jeep back to the evil man and ran some more tests. He ran me through the tests on checking why the heater circuit code is tripped. Everything checks out fine so he recommends I get the PCM flashed or getting a new one. New ones are 300 and to flash is 80. I think I'll go with the flash. I'll have the fuel controller in this weekend and i'll take pics . Finally have time to get some stuff done.
unless there's a newer firmware revision that addresses that bug (assuming it is a bug) flashing won't change anything
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I'm thinking maybe I messed something up when i installed the turbo and didn't have an 02 sensor in.
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I'm thinking maybe I messed something up when i installed the turbo and didn't have an 02 sensor in.
worst that can happen is that it would store a code and that can be reset with the scanner by the evil man
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I'll check ebay for one first then.
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A couple pics of the intercooler set up
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A couple pics of the intercooler set up
there's no airflow in that spot, so once the i/c gets hot (which is about 15 seconds under boost) it won't cool anything - maybe have a grill on top of the hood with a fan on top of the intercooler blowing thru downwards.
not trying to put down what you did but the way it supposed to work is by having cooler air thru the fins to remove the heat buildup that was transferred from the intake air into the intercooler tubes - the way you have it won't cool at all, you can test that by having a temp sensor ahead and after the intercooler. Subaru (if i remember that's where you got it from) has an air ram vent on the hood pushing air thru the i/cooler.
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Ya. I'm gonna find a fan to put on it or just do an water to air intercooler. Its just acting like a makesift radiator right now. I noticed a difference right off the bat with how it ran. Its just temp.
BTW. got the fuel controller hooked up just now. Gonna start it here in a few minutes.
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Ya. I'm gonna find a fan to put on it or just do an water to air intercooler. Its just acting like a makesift radiator right now. I noticed a difference right off the bat with how it ran. Its just temp.
will work for a short period until it heats up, after that will be just like before
EDIT: Here's an idea - control the cooling fan with the FTC1 - remember that there's a wire (i think was the orange one) that allows you to switch an external load based on MAP reading and rpm, so just have it turn on once you go over 1 psi or so.
BTW. got the fuel controller hooked up just now. Gonna start it here in a few minutes.
alright :thumb: - can't wait to hear details.
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Ok. It runs. Just took it for a test drive.Everything is still the same cause i haven't changed any parameters yet. I'll let the pros do that. As for now. I'm just happy its in.
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Ok. It runs. Just took it for a test drive.Everything is still the same cause i haven't changed any parameters yet. I'll let the pros do that. As for now. I'm just happy its in.
did you check how the map looks like - i would suggest saving it first as it probably came preloaded with a base map.
glad it works, now that you installed it they can give you a discount on tuning :)
when are you taking it in to the shop?
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Glad you have big progress. As far as intercooler is concern, i saw guys running turbo without hood installed. May be it will help with airflow through the cooler, at least at the first tests.
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There is no pre loaded software. It is all blank. It runs kinda crappy but it usually does for the first couple days after i have the battery terminals off for a while. I'm gonna call the shop tuesday (assuming they will be closed for memorial day) hopefully they can get me in soon. should only be about 300 for tuning.
I just need to save more money for a better intercooler. Of course tires are first concern. Lift is already on the way
thanks for all your hep guys. i'll let you know what the numbers are
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There is no pre loaded software. It is all blank. It runs kinda crappy but it usually does for the first couple days after i have the battery terminals off for a while. I'm gonna call the shop tuesday (assuming they will be closed for memorial day) hopefully they can get me in soon. should only be about 300 for tuning.
I just need to save more money for a better intercooler. Of course tires are first concern. Lift is already on the way
thanks for all your hep guys. i'll let you know what the numbers are
hey, can't wait to see the numbers - make sure they give you all the printouts with power, torque, temps and BSFC - not sure if they can give you the ignition advance as well but that would also be interesting.
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hey, can't wait to see the numbers - make sure they give you all the printouts with power, torque, temps and BSFC - not sure if they can give you the ignition advance as well but that would also be interesting.
AFR too, forgot about that one.
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hey i was going through the r4 software again and realized that its not reading the rpm. yet it runs. if a connection wasnt right wouldnt it not run? any ideas. also i would like to have some kind of base values to make it easier for the man to tune it.
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hey i was going through the r4 software again and realized that its not reading the rpm. yet it runs. if a connection wasnt right wouldnt it not run? any ideas. also i would like to have some kind of base values to make it easier for the man to tune it.
did you connect to the device? did you set it as 1 cyl 4 stroke? is it reading the MAP sensor?
first you need to create a new customer from File>New Customer
then click on connect to ECU button (select the appropriate COM port)
once you connect to the device (FTC1) you have to go into options>system settings and select programmable signal calibrator under the application and vacuum/pressure under display options
then go into options>engine settings and select 1 cylinder 4 stroke
EDIT:
then go into Maps>Fuel Maps and click on Read Data from ECU (it is one of the 2 buttons on top left of the window) - you should see a predefined map in there, if all the values are 10 in MAP A and all values are 0 (zero) in MAP B it means it is working as nothing would be there (just like stock, transparent, so it means it came with no predefined maps) with the only exception that now you have a 2 bar MAP sensor. If you have different values than 10 and zero respectively in some cells in the 2 maps then it means it has a predefined map(s) loaded, click on file>close customer and then make a copy of the mdb file so you have it saved. If the values are default (10 and 0) then i suggest sending an email to sales at splitsec and ask them for base maps but you'll need to give them your engine details (boost, rpm vs boost, injector size and stock injector size, they'll be able to send you something to start your tuning). I looked for my map but i can't find it, i think i have it saved on my old laptop which is refusing to boot at this time. Let me know if they won't send you one and i'll try to see if i can get the maps off the harddrive somehow.
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I made another purchase, was on my list for a long time but i didn't get around to do it
it's a knock detection unit from TurboXS - works with 2 wire Bosch OEM sensors and it is tunable (sensitivity and curve levels) for best results. It also has (and that's what sold me on it) a knock detection output that can be logged, basically a wire that gives 0v when there's no pinging/knock and 12v impulse when a knock is detected - i can feed this into my Innovate SSI-4 to log the output along with RPM and boost (MAP sensor reading) to fine tune the FTC1 timing retard. As a bonus it also has a RPM shift light that can be programmed - will turn the LED to Green when the preset RPM is reached. When a light knock is detected the LED will turn amber, detecting a normal knock will turn the LED red.
http://turboxs.com/more_info.php?ID=212
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wow. you have all kinds of electronics hooked up. I called Splitsec. I missed a part in the instructions to read data from unit. Also the yellow black wire gets hooked up the cam signal wire to pcm for the tach. and got to make sure it is set on 1cyl4stroke like you said.
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wow. you have all kinds of electronics hooked up. I called Splitsec. I missed a part in the instructions to read data from unit. Also the yellow black wire gets hooked up the cam signal wire to pcm for the tach. and got to make sure it is set on 1cyl4stroke like you said.
so you need to connect both tan/yellow and yellow/black to the cam signal? I don't have the yellow/black, they are probably connected together internally in my case.
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I made another purchase, was on my list for a long time but i didn't get around to do it
it's a knock detection unit from TurboXS - works with 2 wire Bosch OEM sensors and it is tunable (sensitivity and curve levels) for best results. It also has (and that's what sold me on it) a knock detection output that can be logged, basically a wire that gives 0v when there's no pinging/knock and 12v impulse when a knock is detected - i can feed this into my Innovate SSI-4 to log the output along with RPM and boost (MAP sensor reading) to fine tune the FTC1 timing retard. As a bonus it also has a RPM shift light that can be programmed - will turn the LED to Green when the preset RPM is reached. When a light knock is detected the LED will turn amber, detecting a normal knock will turn the LED red.
http://turboxs.com/more_info.php?ID=212
and i just bought a knock sensor for it from eBay for $16 shipped - Bosch Knock Sensor for Saab 900 / Volvo 240 / Porsche 944, Bosch P/N 0261231006
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Nice. Made an appointment today for next wed for the tune. I'm excited. I also bought my wheels and tires today. had to get new rims cause mine are too thin.
Here is a pick
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Nice. Made an appointment today for next wed for the tune. I'm excited. I also bought my wheels and tires today. had to get new rims cause mine are too thin.
Here is a pick
nice rims.
so did you end up looking at the loaded fuel and timing maps? were they preset or not?
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Yes. I also hooked up the yellow/black rpm signal wire. It is pre loaded but i'm guessing it is more like the 1996 2.5l cause it runs like crap and that is the year of the instructions he gave me. It cuts out big time at more than 3psi boost. cant wait for it to be tuned. I'm so fricken excited. I also found out my lift is on back order which sucks big time.
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Yes. I also hooked up the yellow/black rpm signal wire. It is pre loaded but i'm guessing it is more like the 1996 2.5l cause it runs like crap and that is the year of the instructions he gave me. It cuts out big time at more than 3psi boost. cant wait for it to be tuned. I'm so fricken excited. I also found out my lift is on back order which sucks big time.
you can do some pre-tuning if you have an OBDII scan tool (you can get a USB based one for your laptop or even for a PDA) - you probably seen this before but just in case you didn't here's the link for the tuning notes from splitsec http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/Fuel-Engine_in_Boost_using_2-bar_Map_Sensor.pdf
this one also http://www.gadgetonline.com/U-Tune.pdf - there's a link in there for a decent priced ODBII scan tool for $87 (in your case i am pretty sure you need the BR-CAN tool and not BR-3 but check the vehicle list to make sure).
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So lately its been hit or miss on how it runs. Instead of the heater circuit code coming up it has po442 and p1195. 442 id the evap canister. Thought it might be gas cap. well see. i think it is my pcm. It may be messed up. I picked up a roof rack today for 100 bucks on craigslist. barely used. couldnt pass it up
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So this morning it barely ran. ran ok yesterday. also the heater cicuit code came up again today. im getting stressed about it. there isnt anything different today. it geels like iys not getting any gas when i give it throttle and if i give it too much throttle it fires throught the intake
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So this morning it barely ran. ran ok yesterday. also the heater cicuit code came up again today. im getting stressed about it. there isnt anything different today. it geels like iys not getting any gas when i give it throttle and if i give it too much throttle it fires throught the intake
that def sounds like lean mixture - i would take it for the tuning run first but also ask them to monitor the fuel pressure to make sure your pump is up to par (should keep a steady 49 psi at all times).
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Ya i've had the presssure tested a couple months ago. Pressure is 49. Not sure what was going on. It ran ok later that day after work then better when I cleared the code. My guess is that my gas cap was not screwed in all the way. I spoke to the mechanic at my work and he said the 1195 code is that I fried my o2 by having exhaust wrap on the downpipe. Which the exhaust place told me to put on. Hopefully my extra one will work after I take off the wrap. Otherwise that is a 120 dollar mistake that I wont be too happy about.
Of course Jeep would not put a shrader valve on the rail for easy pressure testing. I have to take it to a place that has the special tool.
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Ya i've had the presssure tested a couple months ago. Pressure is 49. Not sure what was going on. It ran ok later that day after work then better when I cleared the code. My guess is that my gas cap was not screwed in all the way. I spoke to the mechanic at my work and he said the 1195 code is that I fried my o2 by having exhaust wrap on the downpipe. Which the exhaust place told me to put on. Hopefully my extra one will work after I take off the wrap. Otherwise that is a 120 dollar mistake that I wont be too happy about.
Of course Jeep would not put a shrader valve on the rail for easy pressure testing. I have to take it to a place that has the special tool.
did you get it in for tuning?
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No i havent. yesterday i went and got a new 02 sensor. 4th one ive bought. It seems to be running ok. im gonna see what happens now when the heater circuit code comes back on cause that was the culprit. for some reason it didnt want to run after the code tripped. im gonna order a new pcm on monday and if the light stays off for a while then ill take it in.
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Following this thread i thought of a possibility to use PT Cruiser Turbo PCM instead of stock TJ's. They are on sale on e-bay. Do you guys think it is a good idea? Taking into consideration that piggy back system costs about $500, and you have to add to it a wide band O2 sensor with reader, and possibly enricher, and spend a lot time/money for tuning, may be it is easier to reconnect PTC PCM to TJ dashboard and sensors, replace MAP for 2 bar? People do swap engines - so it is possible. OR NOT?
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You would have to do a lot of research on the two harness and or creat a new one for the tj block. possibly adding sensors as well. if you had a donor car im sure it would be possible. I know airsierra was originally going to do a complete swap but the mounts are different. and other things
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Yea, i know ;) The whole engine does not fit TJ, it has o lot of equipment on the back side, but the block is the same. Sierra's magic project still looks like a miracle for me. My question is, if it is same complicity to swap PCM as they do when changing entire engine, i6 or V8?
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How is your progress, Chris?
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Following this thread i thought of a possibility to use PT Cruiser Turbo PCM instead of stock TJ's. They are on sale on e-bay. Do you guys think it is a good idea? Taking into consideration that piggy back system costs about $500, and you have to add to it a wide band O2 sensor with reader, and possibly enricher, and spend a lot time/money for tuning, may be it is easier to reconnect PTC PCM to TJ dashboard and sensors, replace MAP for 2 bar? People do swap engines - so it is possible. OR NOT?
If you look for AirSierra's post you'll find that instead of using the whole engine, he just used the turbo and exhaust manifold. ...less trouble. You would still need to see if he's got any adapter plates as the manifold needs to be flipped upside down to work in a Jeep.
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Put all hardware together is not a problem. Big trouble starts when it comes to fuel management and engine control. In Air Sierra project something very special happened, and he was running turbo on stock TJ's PCM. Does not work in other's people setups. My question is: is the swap of computers more complicated, than it happens when people do an engine swap?
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I studied his posts for months. Copied and pasted all the really important information with part numbers that I need and could afford at the time. I bought the adapter plate that he had made several of so I could follow just like him.
As of right now the jeep sits and i'm driving my moms RX-8. My mechanic at work thinks that when the jeep goes through the cycles when it hits a certain point it gets really confused and goes into limp mode. that is why it is running really lean and not wanting to go. He told me to start from scratch. Unplug the fuel controller and pull the pipe off the turbo so it is naturally aspirated again. Clear everything on the computer and start it 6 or seven times till any codes have the chance to come back up. If the 135 code comes back up then order a new pcm. So i'll start from scratch except I'll have the bigger injectors in. Then start adding one thing at a time. First the turbo and then the fuel controller. He also was worried that by adding the rpm wire(yellow) to the cam position sensor it messes with the resistance and therefore confused the computer. So maybe need to find another place to put it.
So that is where i'm at. This weekend I will get started. Maybe tomorrow if I have time.
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The only point that could make Sierra's setup work - high altitude of the place where he lives. That is the only chance for stock MAP sensor to produce less than 5V when under small boost.
In your case I am afraid intercooler works not in a proper way. As you know Sierra had W/A cooler which is more effective in some cases. Like a suggestion: - could the high intake temperature be the factor that affects O2 sensor operation and lean condition of fuel mixture?
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Seems to me the way off less hassle is to use the turbo charged engine and ecm. it is not that big a deal to make new motor mount brackets as long as the trans mates in my book it's an easier way to do it, you get the right fuel maps the right compression ratio and an engine that is built for it possibly with cooling jets under the pistons to help cool them. That is the route I would take, it is not all that easy to come up with a good fuel and timing map for your add on or stand alone aftermarket ecm.
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In this case, what will be with stock VIN-code and odometer readings?
In our case the engine is almost the same. It is possible to change pistons at the very end. There is no need to change the engine block. But to change ECU and some sensors (MAP) looks like a good idea to me too. The only point is VIN-code.
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chris what motor are you using as well as computer management. I used the 2.5 and had the same problems.The motor I was using was port polished and honed. i would get into boost and it would lean out real bad. I started frying the coil packs. went through about 3 in a month in a half. tried 2 different engine management systems still would go crazy lean in boost. pcm yup did those got two reflashed. Im not quite sure how people are saying it works but i dumped about 5 grand into and just got more problems down the road. finally got it where it would run decent in till it warmed up then back to square one. my advice abort abort. its a mone pit with no sunshine at the end of the rainbow. I hope it all works out for you just careful on the wallet, it will get you no where.
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To bad. :'( You have just killed my dream :fish:
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That was not what was meant by that post. just be leary of this mod, yea it looks sweet in the pictures,but the getting he squirrel turbed effecnent is a different story and good luck let me know.
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Im using the 2.4 which came stock my year. the management that i am using is the split second ftc1-019b. i also have larger injectors. Im at a point where if this doesnt work then back to stock it and i can save money for something else. not sure. i just cant put much more into it at the moment. im at close to 2 grand right now. vodkaman. if you want to pick up after me make me an offer.
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It would make sense if you have made it, and just didn't like it. But now it looks like mission impossible. Even there in America! What should i expect here in Russia? You can just double the price you payed because of delivering and customs cleaning and it still be not final. Sorry not affordable to me.
Why don't you want to try SRT4 stock PCM?
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I went with the hemi swap and love it, just wish I dint waste all that money on the turbo setup. apparently with this thread turbo is a shot in the dark. good luck to all with turbo in mind.
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With the DRB3 Chrysler scanner you should be able to change the vin, if not if you have a Chrysler dealer in Moscow they can reflash the ecm and change the vin.
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How much for hemi swap. was it hard. Do you like the power?
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it was close to 10 grand after engine, guages, exhaust everytnig it was about 9 grand. but yea i love it. really busted the wallet but looks factory. it took close to 2 months. but well worth the wait. the power is awesome. im still breaking in the motor so havent really got on it.
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I hate the stupid thing. yesterday i went to move it into the garage to finally start digging into it and the tps code came up. it idols but doesnt do anything when you give it gas. just another thing to fix
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thats what went wrong with my project. and it only gets worse. good luck man
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Ok. Tracked that problem down. Turns out that when your steering column gets wet it can throw that code. Fixed that. Other items off the to do list. Put on lift and tires.
As for turbo issues. I have taken off the fuel and timing controller and going to see how it does. then order new pcm.
glad I have the turbo to help push those bigger tires.
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Came across this site http://www.turbominivan.com/ Thought it was pretty interesting. Dyno's 400+ ft of torque and 192+ HP. Check the dyno fun on the left side of the page.
Can a east-west motor be put in a North-south Jeep?
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Came across this site http://www.turbominivan.com/ Thought it was pretty interesting. Dyno's 400+ ft of torque and 192+ HP. Check the dyno fun on the left side of the page.
Can a east-west motor be put in a North-south Jeep?
that dyno chart is very unusual
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that dyno chart is very unusual
X2; all the ones I have seen come up first then down... both for HP and torque.
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haven't done anything in a while. Running without the fuel controller right now. Sends my jeep into limp mode or something. my mechanic at work thinks its because I have the tach wire hooked up to the cam pos sensor and the draw throws the computer off. Anyone know if the controller can be used on the 2.4l the split sec guy said that it should. If it doesn't should I be able to get a full refund.
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haven't done anything in a while. Running without the fuel controller right now. Sends my jeep into limp mode or something. my mechanic at work thinks its because I have the tach wire hooked up to the cam pos sensor and the draw throws the computer off. Anyone know if the controller can be used on the 2.4l the split sec guy said that it should. If it doesn't should I be able to get a full refund.
i don't see any reason for which it would not work - you should tune it, that's my guess why you are having issues. you could try to skip the timing adjustments and see if that makes it better (don't connect the crank output and just leave the crank input connected to the crank signal wire)
dunno about the refund, you should ask SSecond, but i doubt it won't work. You should really have a way to log your engine parameters and AFR to understand what is happening.
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I remember the guy saying something about hooking the tach wire to something else. I'll find out and give that a try. new pcm will be ordered on monday. that could be a huge part of the issue too. we'll see.
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I remember the guy saying something about hooking the tach wire to something else. I'll find out and give that a try. new pcm will be ordered on monday. that could be a huge part of the issue too. we'll see.
i really don't think the cam signal is an issue. on the 91-95 PCM there is a tach signal wire that can be used but there isn't one in your case - you could try one of the Injector command wires, that should give you the same signal timing as the cam sensor signal and should not affect the injector at all (the input impedance of the tach sense on FTC would most likely be over 1 MOhm so should not draw any significant current)
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I'll play around with it.
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X2; all the ones I have seen come up first then down... both for HP and torque.
That dyno plot looks the way it does because of torque multiplication. While the converter is slipping at lower RPM (and the turbo was already starting to build boost), the torque output is artificially raised a bit. As the converter begins to catch up and the multiplication effect begins to go away, the torque plot gradually reduces. By the time the converter completely catches up and the multiplication effect has completely gone away, the max boost output has already been reached (in this case, 20 psi) so the torque curve is already on its way back down. The result is a steadily-decreasing curve across the plot (especially when the engine's top-end horsepower "corks" are still in place--notice the horpsepower peaked at a very low 3200 RPM).
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That dyno plot looks the way it does because of torque multiplication. While the converter is slipping at lower RPM (and the turbo was already starting to build boost), the torque output is artificially raised a bit. As the converter begins to catch up and the multiplication effect begins to go away, the torque plot gradually reduces. By the time the converter completely catches up and the multiplication effect has completely gone away, the max boost output has already been reached (in this case, 20 psi) so the torque curve is already on its way back down. The result is a steadily-decreasing curve across the plot (especially when the engine's top-end horsepower "corks" are still in place--notice the horpsepower peaked at a very low 3200 RPM).
but in that case how do you get a relevant power/torque/rpm curve - you usually get a dyno graph based on the rpm increasing from low to high, in what you describe would be backwards until the converter locks up (the rpm would decrease during the dyno run), not sure if that is relevant for the engine itself.
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but in that case how do you get a relevant power/torque/rpm curve - you usually get a dyno graph based on the rpm increasing from low to high, in what you describe would be backwards until the converter locks up (the rpm would decrease during the dyno run), not sure if that is relevant for the engine itself.
The engine RPM never decreases throughout the run; it's just that the converter causes a multiplication effect on the torque output at low engine speeds.
To clarify: this dyno phenomenon is common when you're running moderate boost levels (15+ psi) on an engine with an automatic transmission, particularly when you set up the turbo to spool as rapidly as possible (which was indeed the case with that minivan, but I doubt anyone would ever try to set up their stock-engined 2.5L Jeep to spool as hard). Here is a similar dyno plot from another Mopar four cylinder engine running big boost on an automatic transmission:
(http://relentlessracing.com/images/dyno_brian_last.jpg)
(http://relentlessracing.com/images/customers_slowe_3.jpg)
In contrast, here is the dyno plot from a Daytona which was mechanically similar to the minivan but had a manual transmission instead (and hence no torque multiplication):
(http://dempseybowling.com/pix/dyno_mrk.jpg)
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what i'm saying is that if the converter is not locked up, flooring the gas pedal on a dyno would result in the rpm to shoot high and then go down (not sure why you say it won't happen) - a dyno run should be performed with no converter slip or the result is not relevant for the engine itself (would be the same as slipping the clutch on a manual).
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what i'm saying is that if the converter is not locked up, flooring the gas pedal on a dyno would result in the rpm to shoot high and then go down (not sure why you say it won't happen)
I say it won't happen because it won't, and it doesn't... at least not in my own real-world experience.
In case you haven't already figured it out: www.TurboMinivan.com is my web site, the dyno plot originally linked above is my dyno plot, and the van that generated it was my 1989 2.5L turbo Caravan. Also, in case you missed it, my minivan had a reverse-pattern manual valve body. This means I could put the van in 3rd gear at any road speed (including a mere crawl), floor the throttle, and there would be no kickdown into a lower gear. This is what the dyno operator decided to do for my pull: he generated about 20 MPH of simulated road speed, shifted into third gear, floored it, then started the dyno's recording. (This means he was generating the largest slippage/multiplication scenario possible--not what I was after, but I didn't know it at the time.) The engine speed quickly began to rise (due to converter slippage/stall), of course. This initial spike of artificially-accelerated RPM increase slows down a bit as the slippage decreases, which means the RPM rate of increase slows down for a moment but it never reverses--certainly not while remaining at WOT.
Let me give you another example: my usual dragstrip launch routine. I bracket raced this minivan for six years. Like any bracket racer, I was all about developing a consistent launch technique. After some experimentation, I really hit the sweet spot for launching my particular setup. For those of you out there who are interested in long-term transmission durability, do NOT try this at home! Here is what I would do for every pass (this was after I installed a larger turbo that spooled later than in the dyno plot). Pay particular attention to steps 6-9:
1: pull up to water box, wet tires, switch boost control to LOW, then apply parking brake.
2: brake with left foot, floor the gas with right foot, wait until boost starts to build.
3: let off foot brake so that tires instantly begin spinning; shift to second gear around 4500 RPM.
4: once tires start to "bite" release parking brake and then gradually close throttle.
5: pull up to the line and pre-stage; switch boost control to HIGH.
6: brake with left foot, gas with right foot until RPM levels off at 2800.
7: while holding 2800 RPM, carefully "bump" footbrake until van creeps forward and is fully staged, then reapply full foot brake.
8: still holding 2800 RPM, focus on the tree's countdown lights; when first yellow illuminates, floor gas the rest of the way.
9: when the third yellow illuminates, release foot brake and hang on.
I would hold the engine at 2800 RPM in order to generate some boost at a standstill; this means the converter was stalling heavily. Yet when I finally released the brake, the engine speed would never drop--it would only go up since I was still at WOT.
a dyno run should be performed with no converter slip or the result is not relevant for the engine itself (would be the same as slipping the clutch on a manual).
I agree completely... but that's impossible to do on a chassis dyno when the vehicle is backed by an automatic transmission with a non-lockup converter (or even a lockup converter that isn't locked).
And on a more topic-friendly note: I'm already thinking about turbocharging my Wrangler... just as soon as I can get my Miata project completed.
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I say it won't happen because it won't, and it doesn't... at least not in my own real-world experience.
In case you haven't already figured it out: www.TurboMinivan.com is my web site, the dyno plot originally linked above is my dyno plot, and the van that generated it was my 1989 2.5L turbo Caravan. Also, in case you missed it, my minivan had a reverse-pattern manual valve body. This means I could put the van in 3rd gear at any road speed (including a mere crawl), floor the throttle, and there would be no kickdown into a lower gear. This is what the dyno operator decided to do for my pull: he generated about 20 MPH of simulated road speed, shifted into third gear, floored it, then started the dyno's recording. (This means he was generating the largest slippage/multiplication scenario possible--not what I was after, but I didn't know it at the time.) The engine speed quickly began to rise (due to converter slippage/stall), of course. This initial spike of artificially-accelerated RPM increase slows down a bit as the slippage decreases, which means the RPM rate of increase slows down for a moment but it never reverses--certainly not while remaining at WOT.
[...]
I agree completely... but that's impossible to do on a chassis dyno when the vehicle is backed by an automatic transmission with a non-lockup converter (or even a lockup converter that isn't locked).
And on a more topic-friendly note: I'm already thinking about turbocharging my Wrangler... just as soon as I can get my Miata project completed.
since it's yours you know better how it was ran and it makes some/more sense when explained, the discussion that started around the dyno graph is pretty much what you just explained as there was already turbo buildup and that's what we were missing (or didn't understand for a better term), but in all fairness i didn't read the whole thing so it could have been explained right there.
since you're here now i'll pick your brain a bit: can't remember what the max boost you mentioned (20psi?) - what CR are you running and how did you get it there? this is for my personal reference if you don't mind sharing.
oh, and just so you know my knowledge about autos is limited to what i gathered from driving my '86 Camaro quite limited
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since you're here now i'll pick your brain a bit: can't remember what the max boost you mentioned (20psi?) - what CR are you running and how did you get it there? this is for my personal reference if you don't mind sharing.
The Mopar 2.5L turbo engine had a lowered compression ratio of 8.0:1 for durability purposes. By comparison, the 2.5L AMC-derived engine as used in the TJ had a 9.2:1 compression ratio. Needless to say, running high boost levels with a high(er) compression ratio is a very delicate balancing act; I certainly wouldn't recommend it for any "casual" wrenchers unless you don't mind rebuilding an engine after you've blown it up. ;)
The old school FWD turbo Mopar engines have horrible cylinder head flow. For example, the non-turbo TBI version of that 2.5L engine only made 100 HP peak at the crankshaft. (Even the TJ 2.5L--itself no gift to head flow--manages 120 HP.) To make serious power on the turbo Mopars, we have to run serious boost; 14-18 psi is pretty common and typically easy to do on pump gas (even for me where I'm limited to 91 octane here in Utah).
There are a number of guys around the country running 28-35 psi on their Mopar 2.5L engines, though I personally never went higher than 24 psi. I usually could only run about 18 or 19 psi max on 91 octane; I would have to mix in some 100 octane in order to go higher (which is why I had a dash-mounted HI/LOW boost switch, with LOW set to 18 psi).
At one time I ran an old cylinder head which had been planed a couple times. Fearing a higher compression ratio, I used a copper head shim to replace some of the lost chamber volume. While this worked okay, lowering your static ratio will soften your off-boost power and response; I wouldn't really suggest doing this unless it was absolutely required due to head milling or you were dead-set on running very high boost pressure.
Anyway, I hope that helps answer your questions. I don't pretend to know every last little thing about turbocharging, but I do have lots of experience and have done years of research about it. I'll be happy to field any questions brought up here, and I'll let you know if any particular topic is outside my area of knowledge.
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The Mopar 2.5L turbo engine had a lowered compression ratio of 8.0:1 for durability purposes. By comparison, the 2.5L AMC-derived engine as used in the TJ had a 9.2:1 compression ratio. Needless to say, running high boost levels with a high(er) compression ratio is a very delicate balancing act; I certainly wouldn't recommend it for any "casual" wrenchers unless you don't mind rebuilding an engine after you've blown it up. ;)
The old school FWD turbo Mopar engines have horrible cylinder head flow. For example, the non-turbo TBI version of that 2.5L engine only made 100 HP peak at the crankshaft. (Even the TJ 2.5L--itself no gift to head flow--manages 120 HP.) To make serious power on the turbo Mopars, we have to run serious boost; 14-18 psi is pretty common and typically easy to do on pump gas (even for me where I'm limited to 91 octane here in Utah).
There are a number of guys around the country running 28-35 psi on their Mopar 2.5L engines, though I personally never went higher than 24 psi. I usually could only run about 18 or 19 psi max on 91 octane; I would have to mix in some 100 octane in order to go higher (which is why I had a dash-mounted HI/LOW boost switch, with LOW set to 18 psi).
At one time I ran an old cylinder head which had been planed a couple times. Fearing a higher compression ratio, I used a copper head shim to replace some of the lost chamber volume. While this worked okay, lowering your static ratio will soften your off-boost power and response; I wouldn't really suggest doing this unless it was absolutely required due to head milling or you were dead-set on running very high boost pressure.
Anyway, I hope that helps answer your questions. I don't pretend to know every last little thing about turbocharging, but I do have lots of experience and have done years of research about it. I'll be happy to field any questions brought up here, and I'll let you know if any particular topic is outside my area of knowledge.
i was thinking of doing something similar to what the i6 stroker guys are doing - mill some off the top of the piston but leave the quench area intact - not sure how much you can safely take off though, i was hoping you have some insight into that. I'm currently working on a spare cyl head i have to get it equipped with 2.02 intake valves and roller rockers but there's no room to increase the chamber volume there (or at least i don't think there is) without altering the shape so i was looking for alternatives.
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Old thread dug up I know. I'd like to clarify some things to piece together a good set up. First off, thanks for taking the time and effort to R&D a setup for the 2.5. I have recently traded into a 2000 Jeep 2.5, After market header, Manual trans, 4" Susp Lift and 33" tires. The 4 banger isn't that bad around town but falls on its face in a big way when it comes to the highway.
I have read that engine swaps to the 4.0 I6, 4.3 Chevy or 350 Chevy aren't worth the trouble as the frame varies slightly from the 2.5 to the 4.0 that it simply makes fitting other motors in a complete hassle. Aside from the fact I don't want to have to deal with adapters and such to make it work.
Plans:
Pull the motor and do a fresh complete rebuild on it, bearings, pistons, hone, etc etc.
My goal:
#1
Turbo 8psi boost setup, Pull roughly an additional 50-75 HP and/or 50-75 pounds torque. (I'm not looking for a monster, but I am looking for something with a bit more pep to handle the lift and tires and not be constantly shifting to 4 on the highway, mashing the pedal and nothing happening.
#2
This is OBDII and I have emissions to comply with. I can do an emission waiver but am limited on allowed miles driven. I'd like to stay compliant with no check engine lights and crap.
The SET-UP (as I can remember through the reading)
-TD-05 12B Turbo (from a 1989 Volvo, (that is set for 8 PSI max stock)(Internal waste gate)
-Blowoff Valve
-30pound injectors
-Split Second - PSC1-002
-**Fabricate the turbo mount near the A/C compressor**
-**Fabricate the exhaust routing from the stock manifold to the passenger side and forward up to the turbo**
-**Fabricate the exhaust routing from the turbo back to the stock exhaust components**
-**Fabricate the intake charge pipe to the throttle body with the blowoff valve**
-**Plumb in the turbo to the cooling system**
-**Plumb in the oil feed to the turbo from the lowest spot of the oil pan**
-**Plumb in the oil return line from the turbo to the "above oil volume level" portion of the oil pan**
The questions I have? I may have missed it if mentioned already
On the 2.5 for the 2000 TJ:
-Will I need a different, higher volume/pressure fuel pump or will stock support 8psi on 30# injectors?
-Will (Split Second - PSC1-002) work for OBDII compliant vehicles or OBDI such as your's for example?
-Will I need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator?
-Is it necessary to tune using a Wide-O2?
Thanks a ton for the info.
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The questions I have? I may have missed it if mentioned already
On the 2.5 for the 2000 TJ:
-Will I need a different, higher volume/pressure fuel pump or will stock support 8psi on 30# injectors?
you're fine but if your calculations yield 30# injectors you will actually have 49-8=41psi (you don't have a vac/pressure port on the fuel pressure regulator, the fuel will have to overcome the boost in the intake so that is differential pressure) so calculate your injector flow based on that pressure at max boost (so would be more than 30lb/hr at 43.5psi as a result)
-Will (Split Second - PSC1-002) work for OBDII compliant vehicles or OBDI such as your's for example?
not sure about OBDII - there was a guy here that tried to get it working on his TJ and ran into trouble, I have no idea why but could be related - look into AEM FI/C as it is listed as OBDII compatible (i think you can even get adapter connectors and not have to cut your harness) and from what i remember it also has an O2 signal modifier built in (so it will adjust the AFR in closed loop as well)
-Will I need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator?
not necessarily but it comes in handy
-Is it necessary to tune using a Wide-O2?
yes, it will make your life a lot easier
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-**Plumb in the oil feed to the turbo from the lowest spot of the oil pan**
Negative - you need to plumb the oil feed for the turbo on the pressure rail, common place is to split off with a T-fitting from the Oil Pressure Sender. the way you're thinking is not going to work, oil will not travel upwards from the pan to the turbo and will not flow no matter where you install the fittings and even if the turbo would be lower than the oil pan.
EDIT: unless you plan to have an external oil pump to feed the turbo (like an electrical one for example).
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those turbo dodges were incredible, had a bunch of glh omnis that I played with upgrading the comps, turbos , intercooling ect.. something about pullin away at the light in a 4 door shoebox that could move waay faster than it should was appealing. those minivans were incredible fast and saw some run in person, neat stuff. as for swappin a front drive 2.2/2.5 into a yj/tj, sounds interesting but man it was getting hard to find parts in the jy back then and most of them are scrap now so dirt cheap parts would be an issue..
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i am currenly working on a turbo dodge swap slowly but i have had no trouble finding cheap parts other than forged pistons and those are never cheap the only other issue is finding the bellhouseing for the transmission cheap but a new one can still be had for around 200 bucks i got mine for 20 off of ebay.
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Keep us informed. I still have in mind to make such a swap to my TJ, though not any success story yet. :'(
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Hey everyone,
I was searching the net for help on my FTC1 tune and found the site. I am a long time jeeper and currently have a 97 TJ 2.5L AX5. I am running a 5lbs tri-country interia ring, centerforce clutch, terra-low NP231 Conversion, Dana 44 swap with Auburn EcTED limited slip-elec. lock, 5" procomp lift, 33s Procomp XT's, Warn 8K winch, lots of armour, terrflx belly up skid....
My latest mod was a turbo and FTC1 split second ECM. I am running about 7 psi of boost and new injectors off of a 2.5L Turbo Volvo S60R, the Turbo is a Garett T3, the exhaust is Pacesetter into a 2 1/2 down and outlet through a Thursh muffler and magnaflow cat.
I am having some some problem with the FTC1. After installing it the jeep ran great no predet except at higher rpms underload and a slight tip in heistation from stop. I honestly have not yet tried to tune it as i wanted som advice. I contact Mark at Split Second who gave me some pointers... but I wanted some specific jeep experence and there appears to be some Turbo experence here. I know I need to leave the 500 RPM range cells alone, but Mark says I should use the same values for the 1,000 to 8,000 RPM ranges.
The jeep misfired last night and set an MIL last night and began to predetonate at all boost levels and RPMS. The engine didn't suffer any damage. It idles fine and in neutral it runs through the RPM range without noise. SO I supect that the FTC1 goes into limp home mode with a DTC set? I will bring a scanner home tomorrow from my shop.
Any pointers on FTC1 Cell values or suggstions?
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Hey everyone,
I was searching the net for help on my FTC1 tune and found the site. I am a long time jeeper and currently have a 97 TJ 2.5L AX5. I am running a 5lbs tri-country interia ring, centerforce clutch, terra-low NP231 Conversion, Dana 44 swap with Auburn EcTED limited slip-elec. lock, 5" procomp lift, 33s Procomp XT's, Warn 8K winch, lots of armour, terrflx belly up skid....
My latest mod was a turbo and FTC1 split second ECM. I am running about 7 psi of boost and new injectors off of a 2.5L Turbo Volvo S60R, the Turbo is a Garett T3, the exhaust is Pacesetter into a 2 1/2 down and outlet through a Thursh muffler and magnaflow cat.
I am having some some problem with the FTC1. After installing it the jeep ran great no predet except at higher rpms underload and a slight tip in heistation from stop. I honestly have not yet tried to tune it as i wanted som advice. I contact Mark at Split Second who gave me some pointers... but I wanted some specific jeep experence and there appears to be some Turbo experence here. I know I need to leave the 500 RPM range cells alone, but Mark says I should use the same values for the 1,000 to 8,000 RPM ranges.
The jeep misfired last night and set an MIL last night and began to predetonate at all boost levels and RPMS. The engine didn't suffer any damage. It idles fine and in neutral it runs through the RPM range without noise. SO I supect that the FTC1 goes into limp home mode with a DTC set? I will bring a scanner home tomorrow from my shop.
Any pointers on FTC1 Cell values or suggstions?
how do you tune it - do you have a wideband O2 logger of any sort? Innovate just released a new product, is called MTX and has programmable O2 outputs but you would also need at least an SSI-2 in addition to that (to log your MAP and rpm at least, keep in mind that FTC1 will output the modified value for the MAP reading so you might need another 2bar map sensor to get the real MAP reading unless you calculate the output based on your modded cells). The MTX looks great for the price compared to LC1 but has a couple of less features (doesn't seem to support instantaneous output on the analog O2 outputs and the error can only be programmed as 0v and not high impedance - not sure if the latter has any importance though), i didn't personally use the MTX so i cannot speak of it first hand, i have an LC-1, the advantage of the MTX is that it already has a programmable gauge for the same price as the LC-1 which doesn't have one.
Since you have an OBD2 you could also use a scanner and watch the fuel trims but you'd be limited to the narrowband output not to mention the challenges in open loop.
Without any log data would be fairly hard to tune your system accurately.
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The FTC1 is programed with a propirety software and a connection using a 9 pin serial port cable. The software enables your to control injector pulse width and injection timming by altering fuel maps.
http://www.splitsec.com/
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i know what FTC1 does, i have one. You will need a way to know where your AFR is at for various table cells MAPxRPM and adjust the modifier value in that cell according to your log (increase or decrease the output so the AFR hits your target). The problem is you can't guess.
so that's why I asked how do you tune it. SSec guys can give you a predefined table which can be a relatively ok starting point but you still need to do your own tuning based on your injectors and fuel pressure, if you're way off on the AFR you might need to change injectors or alter your fuel pressure (latter is more difficult on a TJ but there are solutions for that as well).
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turboTJ No offense but the SplitSecond FTC-1 is not an ECU or ECM as you call it, it is a piggyback Fuel/Timing calibrator which modifies the signal to the stock ECU. And regardless of what you've been told don't hold your breath about getting a Jeep ECU re-flashed.
As far as tuning read this: http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/Piggyback_Tuning.pdf to fully understand what Sharpxmen is trying to tell you, and what it requires to tune your setup.
I have not turbo'd an OBDII 2.5 but am quite familiar with a turbo'd OBDI 2.5 and in my opinion you'll need some form of intercooling either an intercooler or chemical intercooling (water/methanol injection) which is what I use and also has additional benefits. http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html
Once the FTC-1 is all setup I think that's the best way to go as you'll have more control over your AFR.
It will take a lot of trial and error to get it tuned right throughout the rpm ranges but it will be well worth it.
Good Luck
Sean
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Sean and Sharp,
So where do you recommen d getting the split second from? Any place cheaper than the rest?
By the way, Sean, I am still debating which way to go, if water-methanol injection or intercooler. Which tank do you use, where is it mounted, and how often do you need to refill it?
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Sean and Sharp,
So where do you recommen d getting the split second from? Any place cheaper than the rest?
By the way, Sean, I am still debating which way to go, if water-methanol injection or intercooler. Which tank do you use, where is it mounted, and how often do you need to refill it?
directly from Split Second is you safest bet. But i would ask for one with O2 modifier, I didn't get one like that and I'm not sure if they have one for the Jeep (i think i saw it somewhere though so it doesn't hurt to ask). that way you can adjust your AFR when in closed loop as well once you start getting boost or you risk it to be too lean. Or you can go with a programmable O2 but the downside is that you'll enrich the mixture all the time which would hurt your mpg quite a bit (not that our Jeeps have great mpg anyway).
there are some models that have programmable control output too so you could control water/meth injection straight off the Split Second unit, but then again I'm not sure if the one compatible with Jeep PCM has that feature.
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Felipe I bought my PSC1-002 & ARM1 (AFR meter) directly from Split Second.
I do not recommend going with an intercooler only, unless you want to start playing with timing which will
require using a SplitSecond FTC1 (Fuel/Timing calibrator)(Sharp uses this) instead of the
PSC1-002 (Fuel calibrator).
Water/Methanol Injection has a lot of additional benefits over an intercooler.
Read:http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html
also:http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a10/Knock-Knock.-Who-is-the-there...-Detonation!/article_info.html
Ideally both an intercooler & water/meth. would be better yet. However I have not yet found the need to add an intercooler to my YJ, the Water/Methanol injection & PSC1 have allowed my YJ to run like it came from the factory with the turbo. As far as my water/meth. tank its 3.78L and needs filling approx. once a month,
I will email you pics of my setup its simple an cheap.
Sean
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You know, considering (1) the mud we go through, and (2) that I dont know WHERE I would install an intercooler, water injection is not a bad idea. And also, since regular gas here is 91 octanes instead of the 87 you get in the US, I can probably get away with using only water. Now, the question is, do I need bottled water, or any old tap water will do?
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You know, considering (1) the mud we go through, and (2) that I dont know WHERE I would install an intercooler, water injection is not a bad idea. And also, since regular gas here is 91 octanes instead of the 87 you get in the US, I can probably get away with using only water. Now, the question is, do I need bottled water, or any old tap water will do?
Tap water has minerals in it. Overtime it will clog your injectors if you're not careful. You want distilled or deionized water not tap or any bottled water. Distilled water is easier to find then deionized. Around here a gallon will cost around $1. This is the same stuff you're supposed to be using in your radiator unless you're lazy and are using tap.
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Tap water has minerals in it. Overtime it will clog your injectors if you're not careful. You want distilled or deionized water not tap or any bottled water. Distilled water is easier to find then deionized. Around here a gallon will cost around $1. This is the same stuff you're supposed to be using in your radiator unless you're lazy and are using tap.
My radiator uses ONLY distilled water... Plus whatever other impurities there are in the local tap water at the moment I refill it! :lol:
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You know, considering (1) the mud we go through, and (2) that I dont know WHERE I would install an intercooler, water injection is not a bad idea. And also, since regular gas here is 91 octanes instead of the 87 you get in the US, I can probably get away with using only water. Now, the question is, do I need bottled water, or any old tap water will do?
Jeffy is right about the distilled water, the link I emailed you covers that. Even with the 91 octane I would still run the water/meth. mix, way more cooling of the charge air.
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De-ionized water should not be used in cars, it will erode the metals in the system.
There is a real long explanation but if you use DI water it wants to become
ionized and it gets that material anywhere it can...
I worked in the semi conductor industry for many years and we used both extensively...
There was a special section in our hazmat manuals about DI water...
Dave
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Here's some pictures of a 2.5L turbo install on 505performace
http://505performance.com/NEW____2.html
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Looks like 1st April joke. :roflol:
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Has anyone on bought or seen one of these kits in person? It has always intrigued me. I know some of the guys here have built there own much cheaper, but the idea of a turn key system has it own attractions.
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It looks like a pretty decent install considering they kept the vehicle pretty much stock ( stock mech. fan & shroud, A/C) with the exception of the obvious mods to the inner fender and the A/C plumbing.
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It does look clean. It is pricey, but it looks like they have matched up the right parts to avoid some of the tuning and drivablity issues that I have read about in this thread. I know they need to recoup the engineering cost back, but I would think they might move more of these kits if the price was a bit lower. If it is truly a turn key installation with minumum tuning, it might be worth doing in the long run. I know there are super charger and tubo kits for my charger that are almost twice the price or more, however, those kit appear to be producing much larger gains (claimed anyway).
I have always liked the idea of Turbocharging the 2.5 vs a v8 swap, because of the lower weight of the upgrade, and it appears anyway to be less overall modification. The fact that forced induction can reduce the effects of higher elevation, is another plus.
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It does look clean. It is pricey, but it looks like they have matched up the right parts to avoid some of the tuning and drivablity issues that I have read about in this thread. I know they need to recoup the engineering cost back, but I would think they might move more of these kits if the price was a bit lower. If it is truly a turn key installation with minumum tuning, it might be worth doing in the long run. I know there are super charger and tubo kits for my charger that are almost twice the price or more, however, those kit appear to be producing much larger gains (claimed anyway).
I have always liked the idea of Turbocharging the 2.5 vs a v8 swap, because of the lower weight of the upgrade, and it appears anyway to be less overall modification. The fact that forced induction can reduce the effects of higher elevation, is another plus.
The only way they could price it lower is to have you piece-meal it, I think. Sell all the custom hard parts then have the buyer get the commercially available stuff separate. But then you'll have to buy everything anyway.
I forget if Pete (the owner of the Jeep) still owns it.
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Do you know how many people have have purchased one of these kits, or do you know someone who has?
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Do you know how many people have have purchased one of these kits, or do you know someone who has?
there was one in Garage Sale
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Do you know how many people have have purchased one of these kits, or do you know someone who has?
I know the person whos Jeep that is in those pics. He also happens to be a Staff Writer for JP Magazine.
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My turbo Setup. 1998 Jeep Wrangler SE (4 banger) 3 speed auto.
SETUP
Turbo: T04E/T3 (.50 cold/.63 hot)
PSI: 9psi
Intercooler: Yes
Esternal Wastegate
Haltech Parallel Setup Fuel/Timing Managemnet (Dyno Tuned)
Gains: 85hwp :dance:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/386857_251772151545516_100001381993458_719244_843110612_n.jpg)
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My turbo Setup. 1998 Jeep Wrangler SE (4 banger) 3 speed auto.
SETUP
Turbo: T04E/T3 (.50 cold/.63 hot)
PSI: 9psi
Intercooler: Yes
Esternal Wastegate
Haltech Parallel Setup Fuel/Timing Managemnet (Dyno Tuned)
Gains: 85hwp :dance:
looks good. How's the Halltech working, any details on the install, setup and tune?
how did you get the gains at 85whp? would mean your motor makes about 300HP total which is extremely impressive.
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how did you get the gains at 85whp? would mean your motor makes about 300HP total which is extremely impressive.
crickets... :wall:
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I dynotuned my jeep before the Setup.
I have seen a couple of guys putting down 82-82whp on this 2.5L (120bhp rated). All i have seen are Manuals, without A/C and 31s or stock tires.
I dynoed mine with A/C, automatic trans, and 33s Boggers and it put down 54whp. I guess I had a few death ponies, with heavier tires, and automatic (parasitic loss)..
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/312149_10150805216630472_875695471_20677487_266892639_n.jpg)
after trying with a few different fuel management methods, It wasnt cutting it and I was running lean. I even tried adding an extra Fogger/injector.
I replaced my injectors with 850cc and injecting two times per 4cycle and the Haltech , the ponies started appearing while running rich rich.
at 6.67 psi I gained 71whp.
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/312833_10150805213280472_875695471_20677479_813867023_n.jpg)
Now i am runing @ 9 and gained like 15whp..
140whp... but with all my parasitic loss... the engine must be around 230-240. at most.. I dont think it touches nothing near 300hp.
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whats with the spike in hp on the original run and the jump down in torque on the turbo run? your jeep must fly with more than twice the power to the wheels.
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I dynotuned my jeep before the Setup.
I have seen a couple of guys putting down 82-82whp on this 2.5L (120bhp rated). All i have seen are Manuals, without A/C and 31s or stock tires.
I dynoed mine with A/C, automatic trans, and 33s Boggers and it put down 54whp. I guess I had a few death ponies, with heavier tires, and automatic (parasitic loss)..
after trying with a few different fuel management methods, It wasnt cutting it and I was running lean. I even tried adding an extra Fogger/injector.
I replaced my injectors with 850cc and injecting two times per 4cycle and the Haltech , the ponies started appearing while running rich rich.
at 6.67 psi I gained 71whp.
Now i am runing (at) 9 and gained like 15whp..
140whp... but with all my parasitic loss... the engine must be around 230-240. at most.. I dont think it touches nothing near 300hp.
well if that is all correct you just beat the laws of physics - my bet is that there was an error on your initial dyno run, you just can't make 140% more power by adding less than 50% air (atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi, you added 6.7psi which is 45% roughly, not to mention losses with adding a turbo so you would not be getting exactly 45% more power). more realistically maybe adding the Halltech fixed some of your initial fuel issues so if you would have re-dynoed without the turbo probably would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 80HP (30% loss in the powertrain let's say for the sake of argument) in which case the gain would be 45HP - still not there as far as numbers, it is more than what the numbers tell so there has to be some error somewhere
basically for you to gain 120HP total you'd need 14.7psi and that is not considering any losses (ideal and not real world scenario), for 9 psi you can do the math to get the propper percentage
the reason i said 300HP is considering 85HP gain at 9 psi at the wheels (taking 30% drivetrain loss) and using simple math
total_HP=(85*(14.7+9)/9)/0.7 = 319HP, and that again is without losses in an ideal scenario, very unlikely.
I'm sure you make way more power than before just the gains are not realistic, some parameters in one of those dyno pulls were off (maybe in both, not sure).
i checked your project on Jeepforum, looks good, interesting you had to get a new crank pickup - seems that the guy was trying to get the signal of the cam sensor which is 1 tick every couple of rotations and is not too precise either (it's only used to trigger the injector opening sequence) but I like the new pickup solution.
One other thing, reading thru your project posts seems that you run rich without boost and then you lean out when your boost goes up, should be the other way around though - one thing i noticed is that your injectors are 80lb/hr, that could be the reason your afr is way too rich at no boost and low to none throttle opening, the injectors are too large
check this link and give it a read http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
your injectors should be somewhere around 40lb/hr, about half of what you have installed right now. The other thing is that with the current injectors you should def not be too lean in boost so that's anothe thing i would look into (tuning).
good job on putting it all together, keep us posted how it works.
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whats with the spike in hp on the original run and the jump down in torque on the turbo run? your jeep must fly with more than twice the power to the wheels.
that spike is the torque multiplication during automatic transmission downshift! same thing happened in my SVT lightning at dynos when shifting. Torque will go very high then drop real quick.. that's normal.. that spike numbers shouldnt be considered .
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basically for you to gain 120HP total you'd need 14.7psi and that is not considering any losses (ideal and not real world scenario), for 9 psi you can do the math to get the propper percentage
I gained around 70's with almost 7psi. I guess that's the standard of around 10whp per psi.
The dyno runs were different days, but were on the same dyno, same climate, same tuner, and a couple of runs just gabe those 54whps.
Yes my setup consists of a hall sensor pickup for crank position. Almost everything is standalone except for the stock ECU still running parallel for transmission purposes....
some stuff to think about.. first dyno run was with old cheap plugs.. new dyno runs were with new high performance plugs, new injectors, etc..
anyways... the power difference on the street is very noticiable. Its a completely new vehicle. I got the power that i was looking for... If i got 10whp more or 10whp less.. I dont really care right now.. this is not a race car :P
I am replacing my .63 hotside housing in a few weeks with a .48 .. I am looking forward into getting at least 500rpms faster spool.. I am boosting at 3000rpms with I found higher in an engine that shifts and rev at around 5000rpms.
I will be replacing the distributor with direct-fire individual coils too.
lets see how it goes..
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One other thing, reading thru your project posts seems that you run rich without boost and then you lean out when your boost goes up, should be the other way around though -
right now i am runing 12.3-12.6 at IDLE in Gear and cruise.... and 10.9-11.1 at full boost..... I like it rich in this 9.2 compression full stock engine.. I havent fouled any sparkplug yet either.
In Park gear the A/F goes like 10.9-11.3 but the tuner told me its normal because it doesnt have load. In order to have a 12-13 a/f at IDLE in gear (with some load) .. the table goes richer with 0 load...
I know i can lean it a little but i like the power i get from that extra gas mixing up with the atomized air coming from the turbo even at vacumm...
I preffer to be in the safe side. rather change plugs now and then than pistons and start having heating issues and blowing gaskets etc.
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I gained around 70's with almost 7psi. I guess that's the standard of around 10whp per psi.
your baseline was off, so rather look at the total and not the difference.
if you take your 2 runs with the turbo, 6.67psi ~ 125HP, 9psi ~ 140HP, your first run results in 125.71/(6.67+14.7)=5.88HP/psi, second run 140/(9+14.7)=5.90HP/psi so that's your gain per psi - your baseline in that case would be (taking an average between the 2) = 14.7*5.89=87HP
(EDIT: just noticed that it's kind of in line with the spike on you baseline run which is where the t/c locked and that's the real HP, they should have run it past that point)
14.7 is your engine without any boost, any calculation on your boost gain would have to include that and not just the boost (as in at 1 psi boost you divide total HP by 14.7+1=15.7).
right now i am runing 12.3-12.6 at IDLE in Gear and cruise.... and 10.9-11.1 at full boost.....
In Park gear the A/F goes like 10.9-11.3 but the tuner told me its normal because it doesnt have load. In order to have a 12-13 a/f at IDLE in gear (with some load) .. the table goes richer with 0 load...
there's no reason to run that rich at idle and no boost, i understand having it rich when your turbo kicks in to be safe but 11 at idle is just wasting fuel - how's the gas mileage? (in case you checked it, not that it matters since all Jeeps with lift and tires are horrible in that department but for the sake of argument)
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The dyno runs were different days, but were on the same dyno, same climate, same tuner, and a couple of runs just gabe those 54whps.
I meant to bring this up before, if you look at your 54HP dyno graph it is at 3000rpm, stock 2.5L makes top power at 5250rpm.
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yeah that scale is not efficient because there are two gears in the same sheet.
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yeah that scale is not efficient because there are two gears in the same sheet.
my point is that's why you're only getting 54HP in that run since it is at 3000rpm, by the same account if you run it at idle your numbers would be different - could be deliberate, i doubt they didn't notice the rpm issue - but i can only guess, I would bring it up with them if i were you.
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I confirmed with the tuner. the numbers in below the other charts are MPH not RPM...
anyways Replaced the .63 Housing with a .48
Better midrange power... (up to 20-25hp more in the midrange. Lost some TOP END as expected)..
More faster Spool. see how now i get 8psi when I use to have like 3-4 psi.
This are the results sheet.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/406680_10151120200400472_875695471_22247737_623250725_n.jpg)
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I confirmed with the tuner. the numbers in below the other charts are MPH not RPM...
same difference still, the rpm at 30mph would be 1/2 the one at 60mph. The "speed" is completely irrelevant here since you're not experiencing any aerodynamic forces so i'm not sure why they are not using rpm just like every other dyno graph.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/406680_10151120200400472_875695471_22247737_623250725_n.jpg)
something is confusing here, why would the second run drop at 68mph where the previous one was at 72 (EDIT: 76mph actually), you're also making more or same power with 2psi less boost and that could be something related to the AFR/tuning or maybe ignition advance as it is strange since it is the same engine (AFR graph would be great to have in this case to compare the 2).
125HP at the wheels is great if the numbers are accurate.
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we moved the rpm rev limiter form 6000 to 5600 and we left the foot before revving... there was no more power upthere.
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we moved the rpm rev limiter form 6000 to 5600 and we left the foot before revving... there was no more power upthere.
it still won't explain why you're making more power with 2psi less boost. I would get a second opinion if i were you.
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it still won't explain why you're making more power with 2psi less boost. I would get a second opinion if i were you.
at the top end ... because i had less exhaust restriction with the .63
with more exhaust restriction I boost faster, more power in midrange, but loose top end.
with 2 extra psi with a small housing, the top end stays the same.
I have read in different forums of people loosing topend HP by using smaller a/r .. they compensate with more boost.. exact same situation.
anyways. I am using same dyno, same climate, same everything. I am not really into numbers, but performance. the jeep feels great and runs great. a whole new vehicle.
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at the top end ... because i had less exhaust restriction with the .63
with more exhaust restriction I boost faster, more power in midrange, but loose top end.
with 2 extra psi with a small housing, the top end stays the same.
I have read in different forums of people loosing topend HP by using smaller a/r .. they compensate with more boost.. exact same situation.
anyways. I am using same dyno, same climate, same everything. I am not really into numbers, but performance. the jeep feels great and runs great. a whole new vehicle.
i'm not talking about top end, look at the 55mph vertical line, you get more boost (something like 1.5psi but it's hard to tell) on the red line and the power is actually slightly lower
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does anyone know how to get the E-Book that guy was selling on ebay?
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does anyone know how to get the E-Book that guy was selling on ebay?
what e-book?
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what e-book?
He's talking about that PDF that guy was selling on ebay.
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yes does anyone still have it. i just got a 95 yj 2.5 and i am afraid it wont have enough power for the sand dunes.
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yes does anyone still have it. i just got a 95 yj 2.5 and i am afraid it wont have enough power for the sand dunes.
there's plenty of info on "out there" but to be honest i have no idea what that e-book contained, i doubt it will answer all your questions. Check St.Chevrolet's build in member's projects and you'll get a lot of info
on the other hand you might want to look at an engine swap for the same amount of money probably (unless your 2.5 is fresh and pristine).
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there's plenty of info on "out there" but to be honest i have no idea what that e-book contained, i doubt it will answer all your questions. Check St.Chevrolet's build in member's projects and you'll get a lot of info
on the other hand you might want to look at an engine swap for the same amount of money probably (unless your 2.5 is fresh and pristine).
It wasn't worth whatever anyone paid. It's not very specific, IIRC.
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It wasn't worth whatever anyone paid. It's not very specific, IIRC.
No, it was NOT specific AT ALL. I think I still have that somewhere, but it is missing A LOT of information...
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No, it was NOT specific AT ALL. I think I still have that somewhere, but it is missing A LOT of information...
do you have it in PDF? (or can you scan it if not?)
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do you have it in PDF? (or can you scan it if not?)
New member, starting turbo project on 94 YJ 2.5 with A/C. I have turbo mounted and will be hooking up oil and coolant lines this week. I have a question on oil lines. I have read both Sean and Robs threads. Can I buy a oil cooler sandwich for a oil cooler and run my oil lines through that instead of from my oil sending unit and return to oil pan? Just seems easier , but don't know if there is a reason no one does that.
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New member, starting turbo project on 94 YJ 2.5 with A/C. I have turbo mounted and will be hooking up oil and coolant lines this week. I have a question on oil lines. I have read both Sean and Robs threads. Can I buy a oil cooler sandwich for a oil cooler and run my oil lines through that instead of from my oil sending unit and return to oil pan? Just seems easier , but don't know if there is a reason no one does that.
first off you want it after the filter (with the sandwich adapter would be before it passes thry it)
secondly you want it split from the main galley, there is a drop of pressure thru the filter, if you go your route you'd be losing more pressure by splitting before the filter (and would drop pressure more the older the filter, you'd be getting more oil pressure at the turbo as a result).
that's what i can think of
i would just do it at the sender like everyone else
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first off you want it after the filter (with the sandwich adapter would be before it passes thry it)
secondly you want it split from the main galley, there is a drop of pressure thru the filter, if you go your route you'd be losing more pressure by splitting before the filter (and would drop pressure more the older the filter, you'd be getting more oil pressure at the turbo as a result).
that's what i can think of
i would just do it at the sender like everyone else
Thanks for reply, sharpxmen. I saw on some other turbo threads where too much oil can flood the bearings and cause seal failure. I guess too much is not a good thing here.
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+2 on be carefull about too much oil, I fix them at the race track and over oiling is one of the most common issues.
Turbo City or one of hte others should be able to tell you the size restricter that goes in the supply side , also use the biggest return line you can to the engine, the oil foams coming out of the turbo and a too small or restricted return will plug with foam and over oil the unit as well.
I use 1" return lines on the race cars....
Dave
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+2 on be carefull about too much oil, I fix them at the race track and over oiling is one of the most common issues.
Turbo City or one of hte others should be able to tell you the size restricter that goes in the supply side , also use the biggest return line you can to the engine, the oil foams coming out of the turbo and a too small or restricted return will plug with foam and over oil the unit as well.
I use 1" return lines on the race cars....
Dave
Ok, Thanks for info. Turbo project is coming along pretty good. ready for exhaust work. I have question of wide band O2 sensor. Is this something I need to weld a additional bung on my downpipe and install or does it take the place of my stock O2? Is wideband used only for tuning? and unplugged after tuning? little confusion? Thanks for any input.
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Ok, Thanks for info. Turbo project is coming along pretty good. ready for exhaust work. I have question of wide band O2 sensor. Is this something I need to weld a additional bung on my downpipe and install or does it take the place of my stock O2? Is wideband used only for tuning? and unplugged after tuning? little confusion? Thanks for any input.
you can go both ways
1. add a weld-in bung and use it to display and/or log the AFR
2.. you can get one that has a narrowband output and use that output to feed to the PCM in which case you can replace the stock one.
the wideband signal in your case would only be used for your reference and tuning, with option 1 you get both narrowband and wideband.
narrowband is roughly 0v to 1v and it is like the name says very narrow in identifying the AFR (there is no difference in signal output for example between 13AFR and 12AFR, same for 15 or 16AFR, it will only give you an indication where your fuel ratio is as in over or under 14.7AFR which is the target for closed loop, the PCM then adjusts the fuel until it reaches the other side of 14.7 and the process is reverted) whereas the wideband is giving you a linear output between 0v and 5v and it is accurate between something like 10AFR and 18AFR (can't remember exactly but you get the idea) so the output voltage would be different in this case between 12 and 13AFR (and in turn can be displayed or logged accurately).
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Just got all exhaust run and had to see what it would do. It triggered check engine lights, of course. cleared those out. got PSC1 mounted and got it connected correct and hooked up with laptop. trying to figure out mapping? never mapped anything so this is a little confusing ? I had talked to the rep @ Split Second and he was going to set it up for 6-8 lbs of boost and I thought I would have a demo map to put in and get me started. Did'nt happen. at least I can't find it. I need someone to explain this mapping thing in layman's terms. :stupid: do I use volts or vacumn/boost in my setup for mapping. I have my AFR and am waiting on injectors to arrive , hope I can get it close this week. :driving:
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there's a doc on their site explaining how to tune it in detail (called something like "tuning tutorial" from what i recall). You'll have to max the MAP output at your max boost, to start with you can use blend feature between min vacuum and max boost and level off at that (read the manual, it is explained there how to get started), other than that use the cells to modify the output voltage based on your AFR at that cell (vac/boost & rpm) make small adjustments unless you're way off on the AFR. You use the cells to modify the volts out, the cells are at a point intersecting vac/boost with rpm (this is to answer your question as in what to modify), so to conclude the MAP voltage output to PCM is based on vac/boost and rpm reading and the cell value.
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Thanks, Sharp. I went to Split Seconds website and took a look at their Tech sheets. I am taking it all in. I'll get it figured out. I was just wondering about stchevrolet (sean) project and is he still on the forum? I kinda followed his lead and would like to hear from him again.
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took off fuel rail this afternoon and installed new Hesco adj. fuel reg. and 30# bosch 4 hole type III injectors. Wow, what a difference, smooooothhhh idle, runs a lot quieter also. Guy from Split Second emailed a base map to me, hopefully be done in a couple of days. Can't wait............ :driving:
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I wanted to go ahead and post some pictures of progress , so far.
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I wanted to go ahead and post some pictures of progress , so far.
looking real good
one thing i would do is to shield that radiator upper hose somehow, a piece of sheetmetal of some sort with an insulating mat on it maybe
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Yea, I was looking at my Brother in law's 95 yj and his upper hose comes off the radiator straight until the thermostat and then turns down. My hose turns down right off the radiator and then straight across. Might be able to replace hose for one like that and get another 2-3" clearance. I made a few test runs and the little 4 banger has really responded well. I'm getting oil blowing out dipstick when in high boost, any thoughts on remedy? I installed checkvalve on vacumn line going into valve cover.
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I'm getting oil blowing out dipstick when in high boost, any thoughts on remedy? I installed checkvalve on vacumn line going into valve cover.
yes, move the thick line before the turbo (between the airfilter and the turbo), good move on the check valve (should be installed so it flows towards the intake and hold towards the valvecover, i'm sure you knew that but just in case).
EDIT: I see you still have your old MAP sensor connected, what's up with that - did you cut the wire? if you didn't just unplug it, won't work like that (unless your PSC is the volt modifier kind but that's unlikely).
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I already moved my Crankcase vent line( thick one) and my gas canister line to between filter and turbo inlet. Check valve is installed correct. ya, I forgot to unplug map sensor, thx. any other idea's on oil blowing out? I read on some other forum somewhere , that turbo can go bad and send boost thru oil return line? ever heard of that?
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I already moved my Crankcase vent line( thick one) and my gas canister line to between filter and turbo inlet. Check valve is installed correct. ya, I forgot to unplug map sensor, thx. any other idea's on oil blowing out? I read on some other forum somewhere , that turbo can go bad and send boost thru oil return line? ever heard of that?
i guess it could make its way thru the return line but i'm no turbo expert so i don't know, but imo if that was the case you'd also have oil make it's way into the intake
if you have those lines connected the way you describe then the dipstick problem is due to blowby, so that means boost getting into the crankcase passed the piston rings
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How are your rings. You are the only other person so far that has had that problem of oil out the Dipstick. Mine was caused by a Bad cat and too much Back pressure. Also watch your starter they do not like oil. Trust me on this.
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I've never checked compression , motor has 126,000 miles on it so there is probably some blow-by. I installed element type oil breather today and pretty much took care of problem.( see pix) ordered water/methanol injector from coolingmist.com today, talked to Sean and he said he has had no issues and Jeep is running great. I'm trying to find spark plugs and finally found some Bosch FR7HP that should be 2 levels cooler than stock.
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I've never checked compression , motor has 126,000 miles on it so there is probably some blow-by. I installed element type oil breather today and pretty much took care of problem.( see pix) ordered water/methanol injector from coolingmist.com today, talked to Sean and he said he has had no issues and Jeep is running great. I'm trying to find spark plugs and finally found some Bosch FR7HP that should be 2 levels cooler than stock.
if that breather solved the problem then the baffles in your valve cover are plugged badly, so you might want to clean those out as this way you'll get gasses in there
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if that breather solved the problem then the baffles in your valve cover are plugged badly, so you might want to clean those out as this way you'll get gasses in there
Got H2O/meth injector installed, cooler plugs, changed out tstat to 180 dgr. Took to tuner/dyno guy, spent 4 hrs with him on dyno ( only charged me $200), got everything pretty close. tweaked it more today and I'm happy with it. running approx. 30% meth/water. got approx. 120 HP @ wheel. Funny thing is I'm running my stock MAP still connected, could'nt get it to stay running good with it unhooked. I tryed it several times, had to disconnect ground and clear ECM. Got rid of detenation, think that eliminated my blow by, cause its not doing it anymore. got it to 75mph without much trouble and had some left. its pretty sweet.
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Got H2O/meth injector installed, cooler plugs, changed out tstat to 180 dgr. Took to tuner/dyno guy, spent 4 hrs with him on dyno ( only charged me $200), got everything pretty close. tweaked it more today and I'm happy with it. running approx. 30% meth/water. got approx. 120 HP (at) wheel. Funny thing is I'm running my stock MAP still connected, could'nt get it to stay running good with it unhooked. I tryed it several times, had to disconnect ground and clear ECM. Got rid of detenation, think that eliminated my blow by, cause its not doing it anymore. got it to 75mph without much trouble and had some left. its pretty sweet.
so the dyno guy tuned it with the stock map connected? i'm confused, why do that for, you'll need to do it all over again.
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I had it unplugged for dyno/tuning. after I left it began having problems starting. I plugged stock map sensor back in with PSC1 piggybacked to it and it does good? I have to turn key on and let check engine light go out and then engage starter. I don't really know why, I read somewhere on a thread where it maybe has to check barometric pressure before start up to set up ECM each time? Its probably 95% and I am enjoying driving it. will be tweaking it as I go from here.
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I had it unplugged for dyno/tuning. after I left it began having problems starting. I plugged stock map sensor back in with PSC1 piggybacked to it and it does good? I have to turn key on and let check engine light go out and then engage starter. I don't really know why, I read somewhere on a thread where it maybe has to check barometric pressure before start up to set up ECM each time? Its probably 95% and I am enjoying driving it. will be tweaking it as I go from here.
you have to set the 500rpm cells to match the psc output you would put out with the stock map sensor, see pages 5 to 7 in this doc http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/Fuel-Engine_in_Boost_using_2-bar_Map_Sensor.pdf
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Thanx, Sharp. When your this close to getting everything running good , its hard to remember all the little details about tuning.
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Thanx, Sharp. When your this close to getting everything running good , its hard to remember all the little details about tuning.
no problem, i'm a little worried of you running the stock map in line with the PSC, you'd have a voltage differential between the stock map output towards the PSC map output as the first will always have a higher voltage being 0-1 bar absolute compared to whatever you set your PSC (if i gathered correctly would be something like 1.35 bar or so for 6psi of boost). Not sure if that can "fry" the PSC, but just to be careful (it's not meant to have a voltage input on that line).
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whyjay94 if you dont mind me asking what turbo is that your running?
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its a Garrett T3 (TB036 out of a late late 80's Volvo 2.3 )
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Pretty new to all this, so if i ask a stupid ??? please be forgiving. First, has anyone used a megasquirt EMC? If so can i get your basic programing? Second has anyone modified the Cyl Head such that the static CR dropped from 9.2 to about 8.2? How did it work out? Thanks
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Second has anyone modified the Cyl Head such that the static CR dropped from 9.2 to about 8.2? How did it work out? Thanks
i started working on this, but you can't do much on the cyl head side and would have to be on the piston side like the stroker guys do. I did a test on my mill/drill machine with an old piston and came out ok, however that brings up a different issue, since you're making the piston top thinner you'll need better cooling to the pistons so cooling oil nozzles would probably be a good idea. that's as far as i got. the test piston increased chamber gave something like 8.5CR if i remember correctly, all this was just a machining test, i didn't actually built a motor using it.
from the head you'd have to remove way too much material to get it where you want for 8.2CR, you could sink the valves a little but it won't be enough and probably result in loss of performance unless you increase the valve lift by how much you're sinking the valves.
If you search for stroker modded pistons there's tons of info on which you can get and even probably be able to buy a custom kit without the issue of having a piston top that's not as thick as the stock one.
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One possibility,, have a set of rods bored offset .020 (Or whatever the CR calculator gives you...)
So the piston drops in the bore.. Add deep dished pistons. Should be able to get a good drop.
Dave
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One possibility,, have a set of rods bored offset .020 (Or whatever the CR calculator gives you...)
So the piston drops in the bore.. Add deep dished pistons. Should be able to get a good drop.
Dave
if you do that you'll be reducing the quench and with that the chamber efficiency, best to use 2228c Silvolite pistons and dish them to 24cc, that would give you 8.2CR, or 25cc for +30 pistons for the same result. Apparently these are the only pistons you can safely do that as they have thick heads but i have no idea what that is (thickness i mean) - the stroker guys use the 2229 piston which is the corresponding p/n for the 6 cyl.
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Pretty new to all this, so if i ask a stupid ??? please be forgiving. First, has anyone used a megasquirt EMC? If so can i get your basic programing? Second has anyone modified the Cyl Head such that the static CR dropped from 9.2 to about 8.2? How did it work out? Thanks
I was wondering when I was going to see mega squirt on here , petty amazing little computer but a hefty price compared to a Psc and a great deal more knowledge required
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HOLLY CRAP! I just read all 35 pages.
So, if a guy didn't care about running on gasoline. What would be the problem of running a turbo blowing though a CA225 propane mixer? Other then in stock form impco claims they only handle 5psi boost. I have read that they can be modified to handle 8psi in blow though. Also what about just drawing though one? I understand why drawing though gasoline carburetors don't work well. Because of the poor atomization of liquid fuel, but propane will always stay in a gas state after the converter valve. Also draw though there would be no way in hell to cool the boost charge.
Dave
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Also has anyone thought of adding a head gasket spacer? I had to install one the other day on a 3.0l Mitsubishi v6 in a cat GP40 lift truck. My thoughts were instead of installing one to repair a bad head it could be just to lift one up? .020 plus some piston machining get close? I understand that one would need adjustable push rods also.
Dave
Occasionally, a technician may have to machine a cylinder head that's already been machined one or more times. This can cause such problems as mechanical interference of the valves and pistons, detonation or valve timing retardation in overhead-cam engines. The corrective method here is to add a spacer shim between the head gasket and the block to raise the head up to the original specification. Most shims are .020 inch thick, but other sizes may be available, depending on the block.
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I think someone talked about using a head gasket spacer / shim in a thread here but don't remember who or what build. It has been a few years
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Also has anyone thought of adding a head gasket spacer? I had to install one the other day on a 3.0l Mitsubishi v6 in a cat GP40 lift truck. My thoughts were instead of installing one to repair a bad head it could be just to lift one up? .020 plus some piston machining get close? I understand that one would need adjustable push rods also.
Dave
Occasionally, a technician may have to machine a cylinder head that's already been machined one or more times. This can cause such problems as mechanical interference of the valves and pistons, detonation or valve timing retardation in overhead-cam engines. The corrective method here is to add a spacer shim between the head gasket and the block to raise the head up to the original specification. Most shims are .020 inch thick, but other sizes may be available, depending on the block.
you're probably better off machining the piston dish like the stroker guys do with the L6, but you can add a spacer and you are correct about the need for pushrods.
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howdy,
new member turboing a 99 tj
has anyone used the fuel controller by dccdpro?
http://dccdpro.com/zcart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=6
Looks like i can just add a 0-5v manifold pressure sensor and run a booster pump inline. Then controller the booster pump based on manifold pressure. Similar to a fmu but electrical
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howdy,
new member turboing a 99 tj
has anyone used the fuel controller by dccdpro?
http://dccdpro.com/zcart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=6
Looks like i can just add a 0-5v manifold pressure sensor and run a booster pump inline. Then controller the booster pump based on manifold pressure. Similar to a fmu but electrical
I read the description in the link so don't quote me on it but based on that is not similar to an fmu, the pump controller would adjust the flow while the fmu would adjust the pressure, they would rather complement each-other than be equivalent to each other.
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that is what I thought. do you happen to more about the aem fic on a tj. with the cost of the pump, the controller and the transducer the aem is the same price.
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I read the description in the link so don't quote me on it but based on that is not similar to an fmu, the pump controller would adjust the flow while the fmu would adjust the pressure, they would rather complement each-other than be equivalent to each other.
the plan was under non boost conditions, the inline pump has a internal bypass. When under boost the transducer sends a signal to inline pump which is now a choke point and creates pressure, the intank become a lift pump. So the plan was .50v the pump would start at 5v or my max boost the pump would be on full. But Im more interested in the AEM FIC now. The fuel controller i linked i found is not adjustable by me. I give them my spec and they burn a chip at $25 a piece. So it would be some trial and error. Other problem is a the gm 2-3 bar map are not zero volt at 0 psi. So It I would need a industrial transducer. I can get one for my spec 0-15psi 0-5v for $100. At that point its $170+100+100+25, So i might as well cut into my harness and get the AEM FIC.
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the plan was under non boost conditions, the inline pump has a internal bypass. When under boost the transducer sends a signal to inline pump which is now a choke point and creates pressure, the intank become a lift pump. So the plan was .50v the pump would start at 5v or my max boost the pump would be on full. But Im more interested in the AEM FIC now. The fuel controller i linked i found is not adjustable by me. I give them my spec and they burn a chip at $25 a piece. So it would be some trial and error. Other problem is a the gm 2-3 bar map are not zero volt at 0 psi. So It I would need a industrial transducer. I can get one for my spec 0-15psi 0-5v for $100. At that point its $170+100+100+25, So i might as well cut into my harness and get the AEM FIC.
all the map sensors are (pretty much) set to 0v at absolute vacuum or zero absolute pressure (which is 0psi or 0bar or 0Mpa and so forth) - you are thinking 0psi as in the atmospheric pressure at sea level (which is 14.7 psi)? None of them would be 0v at that value - you need a MAP sensor that is functioning for the entire range (from all the vacuum you get with the throttle closed which should be somewhere around -20inHg) to the full boost pressure (which would be 14.7psi+boost or 1bar+boost).
if you're talking 15psi of boost (so 29.7psi absolute pressure or something like 2bar) I would maybe rethink the injectors but to be honest I think that's too much for the compression ratio you are starting with.
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found a really good price on an aem fic, so I'm going that route. the fuel controller map sensor is independent of the factory map. at 0psi the gm 2bar is at 2.45v. the lowest 0-5v pressure transducer that I could affordably find was 0-15 Psi. I wasn't planning on going over 7psi. I might even get an adjustable wastegate.
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found a really good price on an aem fic, so I'm going that route. the fuel controller map sensor is independent of the factory map. at 0psi the gm 2bar is at 2.45v. the lowest 0-5v pressure transducer that I could affordably find was 0-15 Psi. I wasn't planning on going over 7psi. I might even get an adjustable wastegate.
it has a built-in map sensor from what I recall, would replace your stock MAP sensor
0 psi is 1 bar absolute pressure so the 2.45v is about 1/2 scale on the 0 to 2 bar - something to keep in mind with the vacuum/boost gauge showing relative pressure to the atmospheric pressure and the map sensor measuring absolute pressure.
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Yeah the aem has a internal map sensor. I called and talked to them today. You tap into the harness, they mentioned a few places to call about the harness its no longer available by them. But you can control injector pulse +/- 100% and have the ability to retard timing. When you turn it on, the software ask what size the factory injectors are and what size are installed. It goes from there. Also since i have an aem wideband coming there is an aem wideband input. But it is just for reference in the software, will not automatically adjust.
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Quick question for the turbo 2.5 guys. How are yall running your crank vents? I am getting a ton of blow by causing me to have to change oil a lot. Are you guys just putting a check valve on the hose that goes to the manifold? Also where/are you pulling vacuum while under boost?
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you should put a check valve on the line from the metered brass fitting (that will most likely take care of your problem and also stop the pressure bleeding thru the valve cover back in front of the turbo), but not on the large tube as it will cause your crankcase to pressurize and blow oil by the seals.
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Thank ya!
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Thank ya!
no worries - just to make sure I was clear: you want to install it so it will flow from valve cover thru the small brass fitting, thru the check valve and then to intake manifold (so you get air when no boost but vac in the intake) and blocking the other way from intake to valve cover (so boost from intake does not bleed back thru valve cover and out the other side).
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no worries - just to make sure I was clear: you want to install it so it will flow from valve cover thru the small brass fitting, thru the check valve and then to intake manifold (so you get air when no boost but vac in the intake) and blocking the other way from intake to valve cover (so boost from intake does not bleed back thru valve cover and out the other side).
Thats pretty much what I did, but I threw an oil catch can in the mix as well for good measure
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I want to turbo my 4 banger but I can't figure where to mount the turbo. I am dealing with the 1988 set up so I do not have the a/c compressor mount. Re-Built the engine and modified it with a weber 32/36 carb and runs great. I have figured out turboing the carb, fuel delivery, and pretty much everything else. :brick:
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Bolting the turbo up should be the 'easy' part. There are a few options mentioned in this thread...
Why not make a flange and bolt the turbo to the manifold? Or else you could cut the end of the manifold off and weld on a flange. You could also build a new cross-over pipe and bring it to where ever you want. Lots of guy's mount them to the fender. whyjay94 put his in front of this engine. You could probably mount with brackets bolted to engine mount as well...
(http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3211.0;attach=2298;image)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x21/kolten493/index2.jpg)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a104/quick4door/DSCF0026-2.jpg)
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Anyone try supercharging their 2.5? Seems like it might be slightly less complicated than the turbo. like one of these.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Paxton-Supercharger-NOVI-2000-Straight-Discharge-/381450085396 or this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Subaru-Pleo-OEM-AISIN-AMR500-14408KA120-supercharger-Blower-/321974231064.
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There used to be a couple of kits out there for a Blower for a 4 cilinder... dont know if they are still around, though.
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Anyone try supercharging their 2.5? Seems like it might be slightly less complicated than the turbo. like one of these.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Paxton-Supercharger-NOVI-2000-Straight-Discharge-/381450085396 or this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Subaru-Pleo-OEM-AISIN-AMR500-14408KA120-supercharger-Blower-/321974231064.
I've thought about it numerous times. I think it would do okay on a 2.5L. Mounting it would be fairly simple since you don't have to deal with a whole lot of piping. You'll still have to figure out fuel though. I've only see a Vortech on a 4.0L TJ a few times. Not sure why it never really caught on though.
This guy's been selling this kit on ebay for years. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-1999-Jeep-Wrangler-TJ-4-0L-I6-4LTurbocharger-Kit-Stage-2-New-Custom-Turbo-/161002578110
The only problem I can see is cost. Doing a 4.0L swap wouldn't be much more difficult and probabyl cost around the same.
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There used to be a couple of kits out there for a Blower for a 4 cilinder... dont know if they are still around, though.
Well, there used to be one... Then they went under and there was another, who also went under.
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Thats cause the kits all cost more than a V8 swap and didn't get as good of mileage far as I saw on the couple I got close to.
A lq9 chevy small block with variable displacement including trans and tcase can be had for around 3500 than add about 800 for motor mounts and another grand for a computer.. almost 400 HP and about 500 ft lbs. and should get 22 on the highway..
Both the blower kits I saw were north of 5K and only got you about 250 HP..
<shrug> who knows what reality really is with the blower setups..