4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Jeffy on June 18, 2007, 02:47:33 PM
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Well, I've been talking to the Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) and I still have many questions. But so far things look promising.
"A few things you must remember. First the diesel engine must have
California emissions certification and it must be for on road use- no
commercial or industrial applications. Then the engine must be the same
year as the chassis or newer and the engine must have all required emission
components installed and operational. DMV may require an inspection at the
BAR referee to document the vehicles condition before registration but that
is up to them."
So this does give hope to a Gas-to-Diesel engine conversion.
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that is good news, if only diesel were cheap here like in the old days... I think you should post up some common diesel motors used for swapping into our jeeps in this thread. :thumbsup:
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ford use to make, and may still, a 4.0L in line six diesel. then you would be able to get badges for it! :thumb:
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now I know a little something about diesels, especially turbo diesels (TDI)
what I dont know is much about is the jeep trannys, bolt patterns , bell housing configs...
I'm looking at buying my first jeep in over 15 years... comment if you can in my mess hall thread... I could use all the advice I can get b4 I buy....
what can I do to help get this diesel idea going? ask and I'll help where I can...
http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=4561.0
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http://www.youtube.com/v/NwTF01PK1iE&hl=en
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Do you get a diesel option in the new JK?
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Do you get a diesel option in the new JK?
Not yet. It's export only right now.
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Here we only get the 2.8 turbo diesel for the sport and unlimited model (only ones available through dealership). Are the engine mounts the same? Besides the bell housing could the engine be plug & play?
:beers:
Thomas
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aren't they soposed to be/ where talking about coming out with a kit to convert you yj, tj, or jk to diesel....
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aren't they soposed to be/ where talking about coming out with a kit to convert you yj, tj, or jk to diesel....
No, it was a mistake by a Magazine Editor. I've heard second had from the Engineer in charge of such projects that there is no conversion planned.
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darn.....
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Here we only get the 2.8 turbo diesel for the sport and unlimited model (only ones available through dealership). Are the engine mounts the same? Besides the bell housing could the engine be plug & play?
:beers:
Thomas
I doubt it would be plug and play. I'm going to bet that 2.8L diesel is the Mercedez diesel used on their small commercial trucks. My dad had the non-turbo version of those engines in his '91 Land Cruiser in Brazil. They have a bunch of power... against that engine the AX-5 would litterally explode.
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http://www.jeepkings.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=76760&highlight=diesel
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/index.php
http://www.jeepkings.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=66966&highlight=diesel+tj
http://www.overlanddiesel.com/107.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
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The local junk yard just took in an 85 volvo with the 2.4 turbo. I haven't heard it run yet, but I guess the guy drove it there, so it can't be too terrible. I was given a price of 250 bucks for the whole engine and manual transmission bellhousing. I am wondering if you guys know anything about this swap. I have seen online that one guy switched to a t18 tranny, without much trouble. If I switched to this tranny as well, what would I use as a transfer case or can I keep my np231 where it is to prevent a big driveshaft project. I'm looking for any ideas you may have regarding this swap and if its even worth it.
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Well I pick up my diesel engine today. Its a D24T. I could actually start the engine up and here it run. The turbo has no shaft play, didn't notice any blow by, so it should be a pretty good motor. The plan is to make a fake jeep frame, out of 4x4's, mount the engine to it, and put it to the test. I'll mock up the ax5 to it, and fab an adapter plate like in the link below. Once I'm sure it's ready to go, then I'll put it in my jeep. I'm sure there will be challenges, but it seems very straightforward. Even the clutch disk sizes match. My only concern is the strength of the ax5, but I don't have very large tires, and this motor isn't insane when it comes to torque, so it should be ok. If not, well, I'll cross that bridge later. BTW, does anyone have an old ax5 they no longer need? As long as the input shaft turns, I don't care how messed up the rest of it is...
Check this out guys:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4832&start=30&sid=a4a048a4c005f880e1ccbb51f01c6f9f
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Interesting choice. What worries me is this:
80 hp at 4800 rpm
103 ft.lb at 2800 rpm
vs.
105-125 hp @ 4,000- 5,400 rpm
125-150 lb- ft @ 2,600- 3,200 rpm
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Those look like the numbers of the regular D24. People mix them up quite often. The D24T is a turbo version, non-intercooled.
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=106183
This states 107 hp and 151lb/ft
http://www.cars-directory.net/history/volvo/940/
This also shows 107 hp
Another place I read that it had 106 hp and 140 lbs, but I can't remember where.
Its not a monster engine by any means, but it's numbers are pretty good considering its size. I would add an intercooler, which would make the numbers even better, I think 170-180lb/ft, but I'm not sure. Either way, more low end torque than the 2.5, longer life than the 2.5, and better fuel economy... Plus-its a diesel!
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The numbers still don't appear to be significant enough to really offset the gas engine. The D24TIC seems to have around 7 more HP but I haven't seen any torque numbers. Still, it shouldn't be a huge jump. Also what's the weight of the engine? 170-180lbs-ft on just an intercooler? Looks like it's more like 7 more HP and 4-11 more lbs-ft if it's done exactly like the D24TIC.
Seems like a lot of work for something that's marginally better then what's already in there. Any mileage savings will probably be offset by time and money spent to install it. Considering that the Italian VM 2.5L Turbo Diesel which was offered in the XJ as well as the ZJ for export was rated at 140 hp, 236 ft lb torque and was an I-4 still makes that I-6 Volvo/VW engine look a bit weak. IIRC, the non-turbo VM still had more torque then that Volvo.
I'm not saying don't do it, but when you look at the whole picture, it doesn't seem all that great. :confused:
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Your probably right about just adding the intercooler. To get 170-180 I would need to turn up the boost a bit, add a larger exhaust, a more free flowing intake. It just seems to me that diesels, in general, have alot more power potential in them than gasoline engines. Just look at what a simple computer chip can do to a cummings! Now don't get me wrong, the volvo engine is not even close to a cummings, but it is a turbo diesel, and there is some power to be had. In my opinion, alot more power potential than the 2.5 gas. I'm not really interesting in crazy power anyway, or I would go a different route. I just have a tired old 4cyl, and would like to do a conversion on the cheap to show the guys that don't have bottomless pockets full of cash that this is one option available to them. I also just plain love diesels!
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Going with a Cummins is a huge undertaking. The engine is self sufficient so it will run without a computer. The biggest problem with it is it's size and weight. The 4BT weighs in around 900lbs dry and the engine is rather tall. The other problem is finding one that's not used for equipment and governed. Isuzu 4BD1 which is a similar engine to the 4BT and used on the small cab over trucks.
I still think a I4 is the way to go since most I6's will be really long as a diesel. Toyota and Mitsubishi's are the most common outside the US which is why I'd look at those choices first. I know with the Toyota's you can order parts from any Toyota dealer in the US which is a real plus. The other advantage is that Toyota's are also used for offroad and have a huge following in the US so aftermarket parts are there as well.
I know those D24's are popular with the VW's and Audi crowd but those cars are a lot lighter.
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In my book the diesel out of a Dodge sprinter/ Mercedes van is the way to go not a big heavy engine has plenty of power and runs well. The diesel engine that Jeep uses is a VM or Vertilli Motori engine is an Italian made piece of junk. The sprinter engine is a 5 cyl modern dieselo engine with a high pressure electronic injection system. Would be a chore to shoehorn all the electronics in a Jeep but would make a very nice setup. Reliable engine and runs very well also its CA certified
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In my book the diesel out of a Dodge sprinter/ Mercedes van is the way to go not a big heavy engine has plenty of power and runs well. The diesel engine that Jeep uses is a VM or Vertilli Motori engine is an Italian made piece of junk. The sprinter engine is a 5 cyl modern dieselo engine with a high pressure electronic injection system. Would be a chore to shoehorn all the electronics in a Jeep but would make a very nice setup. Reliable engine and runs very well also its CA certified
3.0L V6 CRD is what you'll find in a Sprinter. 155hp and 280lbs-ft isn't too bad. I'd rather not have to deal with much electronics though. For something that doesn't see offroad, perhaps.
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Here's an awesome deal for those looking for a 4BT swap:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cummins-4BT-nv4500-np231-Complete-conversion-for-a-jeep_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem220338270824QQitemZ220338270824QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ebayphotohosting
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3.0L V6 CRD is what you'll find in a Sprinter. 155hp and 280lbs-ft isn't too bad. I'd rather not have to deal with much electronics though. For something that doesn't see offroad, perhaps.
What's the earliest year for a sprinter van in the US? I remember seeing them as early as 01, but I was only eleven then, so maybe there were earlier ones? If so, isn't it possible the firewall plug is interchangeable with later model jeeps? I mean, I seem to remember that the firewall pinout is the same on a few dodge v8 MPI systems (obII) as the jeep plug, but yeah... i might be stupid too.
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I think 2001 was the first year, that sounds about right
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Wikipedia says 2001 was the first year in America.... 1995 was first year in Europe.
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If I had reason to research this I would, but for now I will just leave with the thought that it *might* be possible to make a sprinter diesel directly compatible with a later model (or at least harness equipped) jeep. If ever I go crazy and try something in the future, I'll make sure to research this option further!
(if I didn't already post this) Here's a link to a liberty CRD MJ project:
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=955062 (http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=955062)
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Jeffy have ever seen an XJ with the optional Renault 2L Turbo Diesel
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Jeffy have ever seen an XJ with the optional Renault 2L Turbo Diesel
Nope I haven't seen one. Those were supposedly from 1985-87 as exports only.
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The majority of them were are in Canada and Europe, there's a few of them running around in the city I live in.
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a 4bt into a mj has been done. although i think it would be easier to do it to a tj or yj as they have frames instead of unibody
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=585
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyS9A3jbwLM
there is another option that has not been mentioned yet. its a 6at. basically a small cummins 6 cyl diesel. came in some of the bread vans. if i remember right its about a 3.2l and a bit lighter then the 4bt.
the 4bt can be commonly found in the big box vans use by bread company's. and they pop up on craigs list every once in a while.
do you guys have more on the Isuzu diesel? that seems to be more of a better potion.
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has anyone tried a duramax swap? i know it being a 6.6l it may be too big for the bay to hold. idk just a thought
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Anyone ever tried to use one of the Toyota engines? The 2H engine put in the 80's FJ cruiser would put out 177 ft lbs of torque (4.0L). Or more interesting, using a 4.5L V8 1VD turbo diesel from the Land Cruiser 200 series... My dad has a 100 series land cruiser with the 4.2 L I6 1HD turbo diesel engine, which would be also another good choice. Or maybe the one 3.0L Turbo Diesel engine that comes in the Hi Lux and the 4Runner in overseas markets...
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Anyone ever tried to use one of the Toyota engines? The 2H engine put in the 80's FJ cruiser would put out 177 ft lbs of torque (4.0L). Or more interesting, using a 4.5L V8 1VD turbo diesel from the Land Cruiser 200 series... My dad has a 100 series land cruiser with the 4.2 L I6 1HD turbo diesel engine, which would be also another good choice. Or maybe the one 3.0L Turbo Diesel engine that comes in the Hi Lux and the 4Runner in overseas markets...
I believe there is a 22rh or something like that in a cherokee on NAXJA, something like 85hp/95tq and it gets 35mpg, just BARELY drivable on the freeway though, haha. I would imagine a turbo'd oiler would be MUCH better. Still, closest and best thing I've seen is the CRD swap into the Comanche. The same guy recently acquired a whole, totalled, CRD KJ, and plans to use it for a later model cherokee. I swear he has four or five projects coming along!
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This thread needs a wakeup.
The turbo Deisel Registry has a lot of cool projects.
I've been looking at a small turbodeisel that Kohler builds. Sweet little unit and the weight is doable.
No way it will go through a smog test its a offroad motor but if you can dodge the bullet it would be coool .
Dave
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This thread needs a wakeup.
The turbo Deisel Registry has a lot of cool projects.
I've been looking at a small turbodeisel that Kohler builds. Sweet little unit and the weight is doable.
No way it will go through a smog test its a offroad motor but if you can dodge the bullet it would be coool .
Dave
In CA, Diesels aren't smogged. Although the DMV might send you to a referee station to get it checked. It's a gray area where if the DMV says OK, you're golden. If not then you'll probably get caught at the referee station.
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Just on a side note,,, I noticed folks worried about the power levels of a couple engines.
The original Cummins dodge trucks only had like 160 HP stock, no inter-cooler and a small turbo.
Our pulled a 14K lb trailer just fine... I think 135 Diesel HP is pretty good for a YJ... :)
Dave
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Well, with diesels, you're not looking at HP but rather torque. The 4BT non-intercooled makes 105hp but 265lbs-ft which is huge. The power-band is really narrow so it's like you have all torque all the time.
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It would be so cool to have a 25 gal tank and gt 30 in a YJ.
I could actually drive past a gas station...
Dave
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It would be so cool to have a 25 gal tank and gt 30 in a YJ.
I could actually drive past a gas station...
Dave
there is a company that makes aluminum 26 gallon tanks for YJ and TJ i believe, saw that somewhere but they were pricey - the way they did it is to remove the cross-frame brace in front of the tank.
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I just re-read my post,,, :)
I should have said get 30 MPG! (Small diesel)
Yea I've seen the AL tanks Pretty Shiny (Pretty pricey :yikes:)
Dave
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I just re-read my post,,, :)
I should have said get 30 MPG! (Small diesel)
Yea I've seen the AL tanks Pretty Shiny (Pretty pricey :yikes:)
Dave
i was "admiring" my stock gastank today - with the 1'' body lift i have i could probalby fit another 4 or 5 gallons if i would have an aluminum one that is 1'' taller - too bad you can't extend the stock one
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Multiple fuel cells.
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Here are some other engine swap ideas. VW 1.6L TD and a 1.9L TD.
http://www.youtube.com/v/JTeo_p_maNwhttp://www.youtube.com/v/ZPd9N-Aqq4o
Mercedes OM617 swap:
http://www.youtube.com/v/v-rYFWD_yfs(http://www.4x4labs.com//photos/dieselconversion/omto420-2.jpg)
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:naughty:
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how clean are the cummins diesels? do they spew a lot of black smoke? ive done a little research to see what ppl thought of the swap and many voiced concerns about the weight of the cummins. I wonder if it's all that much heavier then a 4.0l.
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how clean are the cummins diesels? do they spew a lot of black smoke? ive done a little research to see what ppl thought of the swap and many voiced concerns about the weight of the cummins. I wonder if it's all that much heavier then a 4.0l.
Most of those issues were related to poorly maintained engines or the fuel which was high in sulfur. Although, if you get on a diesel they will bellow black smoke but that's when you're really wanting to move.
Then again, what Cummins are you looking at? A 6BT is pretty damn big in size and weight. A 4BT is a bit lighter but still really heavy.
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Most of those issues were related to poorly maintained engines or the fuel which was high in sulfur. Although, if you get on a diesel they will bellow black smoke but that's when you're really wanting to move.
Then again, what Cummins are you looking at? A 6BT is pretty damn big in size and weight. A 4BT is a bit lighter but still really heavy.
i gather the smallest is the 4BT and yet that still has many people raising eyebrows in regard to the heavy weight. Of course if it's as heavy or a tad heavier then the 4.0 then ths may be a non-issue. Other options may of course include toyota, volvo or other manufacturers' diesels but id like to keep it dodge/chrysler if i can.
Ive decided that i will refuse to swap in a 4.0, or v8 into my jeep. It came as a 4cyl and it will remain as such. Once i start sailing, im going to have a lot of time off when im back home and id like a project. Overhaul the 2.5l and try and make it the most powerful 4cyl it can be....or convert to diesel and tweak that. Im thinking no matter what i do to the 2.5l, i will be able to out perform it with a diesel.
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i gather the smallest is the 4BT and yet that still has many people raising eyebrows in regard to the heavy weight. Of course if it's as heavy or a tad heavier then the 4.0 then ths may be a non-issue. Other options may of course include toyota, volvo or other manufacturers' diesels but id like to keep it dodge/chrysler if i can.
Ive decided that i will refuse to swap in a 4.0, or v8 into my jeep. It came as a 4cyl and it will remain as such. Once i start sailing, im going to have a lot of time off when im back home and id like a project. Overhaul the 2.5l and try and make it the most powerful 4cyl it can be....or convert to diesel and tweak that. Im thinking no matter what i do to the 2.5l, i will be able to out perform it with a diesel.
You really need to look into what diesels are available and their specs. I've mentioned before that the 4BT weighs in around 745lbs wet. The 4.0L is 525-ish lbs and the 2.5L is around 300 lbs wet. So it is not an optimal choice unless you're really going to beef up the front suspension.
You are not going to find a Chrysler/Dodge engine that will work. The 4BT is an industrial engine, used for powering pumps and generators, not vehicles. It's not DOT certified which can get you intro trouble. Most other engines are going to be too old to swap in according to federal law. Now many get away with them as not all states have state inspections, safety or emissions that would catch it.
Legally, a 2.8L Jeep diesel would be the most logical choice as it was used by Jeep and is 50-state legal. Problem is it's computer controlled so you have to deal with all of that. Then there is the faulty EGR valve which is an expensive fix.
I think the VW 1.9L is an interesting swap but it might be difficult to find conversion parts. Most VW swaps I've seen are old 1.6L's without the computer. Toyota never offered a diesel in the US, neither have Nissan nor Mitsubishi. Volvo's diesels are OK engines but I haven't heard of too many swaps. I think a VW or Merc swap would be a better choice. I've heard the Merc was offered as a Diesel 300 up till the early mid 90's but I think the last US one was back in the late 80's...
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The 4BT is an industrial engine, used for powering pumps and generators, not vehicles. It's not DOT certified which can get you intro trouble.
the 4b and 4bt where used in vehicles, in the mid to late 80s for sure not sure if they continued into the 90s but they where used in GM P-30s and also in GM rv chassis
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the 4b and 4bt where used in vehicles, in the mid to late 80s for sure not sure if they continued into the 90s but they where used in GM P-30s and also in GM rv chassis
how come you have the same profile picture as bammerman?
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the 4b and 4bt where used in vehicles, in the mid to late 80s for sure not sure if they continued into the 90s but they where used in GM P-30s and also in GM rv chassis
i thought so as well. which is why i thought it would be legal. AS far as the 2.8l Jeffy mentioned, i thought that was only offered for the international market, which would make me think i would run into a whole lot of red tape trying to get one imported and actually get away with installation..
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how come you have the same profile picture as bammerman?
that's one of those standard profile pics you can choose form if you don't have your own. apparently they both like the black and white yj
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that's one of those standard profile pics you can choose form if you don't have your own. apparently they both like the black and white yj
oops, i didn't know there was such thing - was wondering if both were driving the same Jeep :lol:
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the 4b and 4bt where used in vehicles, in the mid to late 80s for sure not sure if they continued into the 90s but they where used in GM P-30s and also in GM rv chassis
They were special conversion done to Frito Lay trucks as they did not come from GM with the engines. IIRC, they stopped in 1990.
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The vans built by Grumman had the 4bt in the same era stock.
Looks identical to the GM strep van.
Dave
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Another engine that seems to be getting more popular is the Isuzu 4BD1T. http://www.isuzudieselswapper.com/index.html
The only question I have is what's the cut off for a 'Light-Truck' verses a 'Medium Truck'? In CA, I don't believe you can put a medium truck engine into a light truck. Although, I'm not certain on that.
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I wonder if CA has the loophole WA has, In WA you can increase the GVW by paying a excise tax....
Of course there are the early Nissan Diesels and Toyota Pickups... 80's vintage....
Dave
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I wonder if CA has the loophole WA has, In WA you can increase the GVW by paying a excise tax....
Of course there are the early Nissan Diesels and Toyota Pickups... 80's vintage....
Dave
Not sure on that. I know the Nissan and Toyota Diesels were export only BUT since they're older then 30 years you can import them and register then in CA. Still, you would need to either find a nice DMV or go through the referee station to get a new VIN issues by the DOT and then you would get flagged for having an engine older then the chassis.
Although the guy who originally had my hood and grill was going to register this YJ as a CJ but then decided to do it legally.
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OK, I did some more research and it seems you cannot swap in a engine from a different weight class. So that really limits things. Not to mention light-trucks with small diesels. The CA Legal Diesel is also an issue since there were 49-state diesels from VW into the 2000's that weren't legal in CA. I think that still leaves the door open for a 2.8L Liberty engine as well as some VW's from the Bug and Golf.
I also read that for CA DOT, there are 3 basic rules you need to follow.
- Donor engine must come out of the same year or newer vehicle.
- Donor vehicle must be in the same weight class as the receiving vehicle. There a lot of times the referee will ask for the donor vehicle's VIN or registration, to prove that you didn't get it out of a delivery truck, or a boat.
- The donor vehicle and engine must have been certified as a California-legal vehicle when sold new.
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The early 80's toyota and Nissans were available here. My Aunt owned the Nissan bought it here in PDX brand new... Only available in the 2wd for some reason...
Same with the Toyota, although there were some weird loopholes allowing some rigs in from Canada that have since been closed up. There were some ford rangers as well, which oddly enough use the same block as the diesel in some Reefer truck and railroad units... :)
Dave
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I wouldn't attempt a diesel conversion at all in California. They have made existing HD trucks and off road equipment add Diesel particulate filters and regeneration systems. Many of the late model electronic engines can have this added, with a penalty in fuel efficiency. However older mechanical injected diesels can not and have basically been outlawed in california or will be in the near future. The cost for the Diesel Particulate Filter and regeneration system(DPF for short) is expensive as well I doubt it would even fit under a jeep.
I think its only a matter of time before they try this stunt with the light diesel vehicles, and no, they are not grandfathering in older vehicles, you up grade or you don't drive them. They are even outlawing out of state trucking companies from driving through california with non california compliant diesel engines. They have to have a sticker on the hood that states that they are in compliance.
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I wouldn't attempt a diesel conversion at all in California. They have made existing HD trucks and off road equipment add Diesel particulate filters and regeneration systems. Many of the late model electronic engines can have this added, with a penalty in fuel efficiency. However older mechanical injected diesels can not and have basically been outlawed in california or will be in the near future. The cost for the Diesel Particulate Filter and regeneration system(DPF for short) is expensive as well I doubt it would even fit under a jeep.
I think its only a matter of time before they try this stunt with the light diesel vehicles, and no, they are not grandfathering in older vehicles, you up grade or you don't drive them. They are even outlawing out of state trucking companies from driving through california with non california compliant diesel engines. They have to have a sticker on the hood that states that they are in compliance.
Well, light trucks diesels do get Emission Tested but only 2003 and up. Older diesels are exempt. Still, there are very few diesels that would be usable. VW's 1.8L Turbo is a bit small for the job. Mercedes 300D is going to be expensive as it's a early 90's model car. That really only leaves the Jeep Liberty and the Grand Cherokee. The problem with the 2.8L is that the EGR is prone to failure and is a $200 part to fix.
I mentioned this once before, it's the DMV's decision to choose if you should go to DOT or not. A switch to diesel only requires a change of one form and some DMV's have been more lenient/or unaware then others and just let you go with the form alone.
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I don't think your following me jeffery.
CARB has retroactively passed emission standards on onroad and offroad diesels. So far its just for Class 6-8 trucks and heavy equipment, some of these machines have effectively been shut down for good or at least in the state of california. But the question is will they pass the same type of laws in the future for light diesels? DPF filters are 1000+ and that doesn't include the control systems. Previous to this standard being set you just had to meet emission standards that were valid at the time your vehicle was manufactured. Now they are taking current regulations and making vehicle owners bring them up to that standard.
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I don't think your following me jeffery.
CARB has retroactively passed emission standards on onroad and offroad diesels. So far its just for Class 6-8 trucks and heavy equipment, some of these machines have effectively been shut down for good or at least in the state of california. But the question is will they pass the same type of laws in the future for light diesels? DPF filters are 1000+ and that doesn't include the control systems. Previous to this standard being set you just had to meet emission standards that were valid at the time your vehicle was manufactured. Now they are taking current regulations and making vehicle owners bring them up to that standard.
That's because trucking doesn't have an organization like SEMA hitting for them. Also, the green movement which is well supported here still like to drive their pre-90 diesels.
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What about a 4BD1T/2T?
This swap seems very promissing to me..
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What about a 4BD1T/2T?
This swap seems very promissing to me..
Here's a site I found that has a lil information on that motor:
http://cruisers.shoumatoffmedia.com/4bd.html (http://cruisers.shoumatoffmedia.com/4bd.html)
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?3635-STICKY-Isuzu-4BD1T-4BD2T-Reference (http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?3635-STICKY-Isuzu-4BD1T-4BD2T-Reference)
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JP Magazine will be coming out with a VW TDI diesel (http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6667601/editorials/easy-jeep-vw-tdi-diesel-swap/index.html) swap for the AX-5 drivers. HPA Motorsports (http://www.hpamotorsports.com/tdijeep.htm) doesn't have a lot of info on their website, probably due to JP Mags influence.
I'd like to do one of these but with an intercooler and an auto so I can use my doubler.....I don't see why not!!! In researching quickly for a TDI, $2500-3000 for an engine under 100k and $1600-2300 for 140k to 260k milers. Guess I'll have to look for an auction of wrecks. Wonder what their kit would cost.
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JP Magazine will be coming out with a VW TDI diesel (http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6667601/editorials/easy-jeep-vw-tdi-diesel-swap/index.html) swap for the AX-5 drivers. HPA Motorsports (http://www.hpamotorsports.com/tdijeep.htm) doesn't have a lot of info on their website, probably due to JP Mags influence.
I'd like to do one of these but with an intercooler and an auto so I can use my doubler.....I don't see why not!!! In researching quickly for a TDI, $2500-3000 for an engine under 100k and $1600-2300 for 140k to 260k milers. Guess I'll have to look for an auction of wrecks. Wonder what their kit would cost.
There's another thread specifically on this somewhere in the forums. I still haven't got around to contacting them.
*Found it: http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,8644.0.html
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There's another thread specifically on this somewhere in the forums. I still haven't got around to contacting them.
*Found it: http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,8644.0.html
Thanks. That is one part of the forum I don't visit.
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http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=902401
This won't last to long ^^ Seems like a pretty good deal.
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JP Magazine will be coming out with a VW TDI diesel (http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6667601/editorials/easy-jeep-vw-tdi-diesel-swap/index.html) swap for the AX-5 drivers. HPA Motorsports (http://www.hpamotorsports.com/tdijeep.htm) doesn't have a lot of info on their website, probably due to JP Mags influence.
I'd like to do one of these but with an intercooler and an auto so I can use my doubler.....I don't see why not!!! In researching quickly for a TDI, $2500-3000 for an engine under 100k and $1600-2300 for 140k to 260k milers. Guess I'll have to look for an auction of wrecks. Wonder what their kit would cost.
Jeff at Acme can get you the stuff to mate the 1.9 to the AX5 MUCH cheaper, using the Toyota bell housing adapter!
http://www.acmeadapters.com/store_engine.php
jerry
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Jeff at Acme can get you the stuff to mate the 1.9 to the AX5 MUCH cheaper, using the Toyota bell housing adapter!
http://www.acmeadapters.com/store_engine.php
jerry
Hmm, never thought about the Toyota angle. Good find!
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I'm a diesel fanatic, and have always had a diesel as my daily driver since I was 19. My current rig is a 95 Chevy Tahoe 2 door with the 6.5L turbodiesel.
I have seriously considered swapping a 6.5L n/a diesel and TH700R4 tranny into my Jeep. It should be fairly easy, as the 6.5L uses the same motor mounts and bellhousing as a regular smallblock Chevy, and there are tons of Chevy kits for Jeeps out there. However, weight is a really big deal. A fully dressed 6.5L tips the scales around 1000 lbs! I think that might be a bit of overkill, and would require stronger axles, boxed frame, etc.
Of course, it has been done before:
http://www.thedieselpage.com/readers/fleming.htm
I already have a 6.5L in my garage that needs a home....but I really think the weight issue is a real concern for a rig that is actually used off-road. I could see my front end sinking down in the mud instantly....or my front end flopping off the rocks and pulling my end over end on a hill climb.
Casey
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i read through the specs on that VW swap. For what it costs, i dont think you are getting much in the way of power gain. 165hp, 280 torque is not all that much power when you could drop a v8 for cheaper. There is the added mpg as an advantage of going with the diesel, however...but the cost is so much, you may as well still go with a v8 swap. The 1.9 is quite light (lighter than the 2.5l) so that too would be an advantage, but i still think a 2.8l swap or a 4bt would be the best deal. the 4bt can produce far more power than the numbers the VW engine is putting down. The 2.8l would also produce some good power for a wrangler, but the swap is pretty pricey and requires that all the sensors (tire pressure, etc) get transplanted with it. I think all that wiring would get pretty complicated for someone looking to do this themselves.
Then again, if they could somehow pull more power out of that VW..somewhere in the neighborhood of 200+hp and 300+ torque while still returning 25+mpgs, THEN i would prob be more interested in going with that.
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i read through the specs on that VW swap. For what it costs, i dont think you are getting much in the way of power gain. 165hp, 280 torque is not all that much power when you could drop a v8 for cheaper. There is the added mpg as an advantage of going with the diesel, however...but the cost is so much, you may as well still go with a v8 swap. The 1.9 is quite light (lighter than the 2.5l) so that too would be an advantage, but i still think a 2.8l swap or a 4bt would be the best deal. the 4bt can produce far more power than the numbers the VW engine is putting down. The 2.8l would also produce some good power for a wrangler, but the swap is pretty pricey and requires that all the sensors (tire pressure, etc) get transplanted with it. I think all that wiring would get pretty complicated for someone looking to do this themselves.
Then again, if they could somehow pull more power out of that VW..somewhere in the neighborhood of 200+hp and 300+ torque while still returning 25+mpgs, THEN i would prob be more interested in going with that.
it all depends on where you start, that means if you currently get 13mpg you're not going to be at 25mpg with just the diesel swap. the Jeep got to 13 mpg due to mods and if you swap to a diesel those mods are still there
you can guess what you'll be getting based on what your mpg is today, being strict on the Jeep side i'll go with .50 bsfc (although is more like .45 but just for the sake of argument) and will use .32 for the diesel - if your current mpg is 13 with the diesel you'll get 20mpg. If your current mpg is 16 the diesel will give you 25mpg. If your Jeep is stock (i know it isn't) and you're getting 21mpg the diesel will give almost 33mpg
it's about how much power you need to move the vehicle and how efficient is the engine powering it (and how heavy your foot is of course but that reflects in the first variable).
that being said, i'd take a good diesel any day, but i do think the 1.9tdi is a bit small in displacement (there is a vw 3.3L v8 TDI)
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i read through the specs on that VW swap. For what it costs, i dont think you are getting much in the way of power gain. 165hp, 280 torque is not all that much power when you could drop a v8 for cheaper. There is the added mpg as an advantage of going with the diesel, however...but the cost is so much, you may as well still go with a v8 swap. The 1.9 is quite light (lighter than the 2.5l) so that too would be an advantage, but i still think a 2.8l swap or a 4bt would be the best deal. the 4bt can produce far more power than the numbers the VW engine is putting down. The 2.8l would also produce some good power for a wrangler, but the swap is pretty pricey and requires that all the sensors (tire pressure, etc) get transplanted with it. I think all that wiring would get pretty complicated for someone looking to do this themselves.
Then again, if they could somehow pull more power out of that VW..somewhere in the neighborhood of 200+hp and 300+ torque while still returning 25+mpgs, THEN i would prob be more interested in going with that.
Keep in mind the venerable 4.2L makes around 112HP and 210TQ. The 2.5 L VM Motori CRD makes 160HP and 280TQ. HP isn't really what the Jeep needs, it's the torque.
The 1.9L weighs in at 265lbs. The 4BT comes in at 745lbs with no accessories. You will also need to beef up the suspension to handle this extra weight, especially on a coil-spring Jeep. And don't even think about having all that weight on top of a D30.
As for cost, unless you're salvaging all of your parts, you probably aren't going to come out cheaper. Also, the other big advantage of going diesel for some of us in CA is that the Jeep would no longer need emissions as long as it's a pre-2003 engine.
The BIG problem with the 2.8L is that the EGR valve is known to be a faulty design. When these things go they're $300 to replace. Mopar Performance removed the EGR when they did their experiment with the 'kits'. And like a V8 swap you're looking at replacing the engine and transmission.
If you're looking at keeping a small light package, then a 1.9L VW TDI isn't a bad choice at all.
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The 1.9l is a great engine. The 2nd Mate on my ship currently has one in his Golf (2000) and easily gets around 45mpg, if he's easy on it, he gets around 50. He says his VW weighs in at around 3800lbs. He doesnt think spooling it up to 165hp will be healthy for it though...you may run the risk of blowing it.
The reason i was looking at the 4bt is that i figure if that motor is good enough to pull around a box van easily, it would pull around the jeep with no problems and possibly do so at real good efficiency. I am aware of the need for a new front suspension if i go that route. Given the lack of electronics, i think that may be cheaper than the 1.9l swap.
Jeffy, is it even possible for someone to get a 2.5l VM motor in this country?? I take it you would prob go with the 1.9l if you were to swap to diesel?
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here is another thought i had after talking to the 2nd Mate (owner of a 1.9l Golf TDI). I began thinking if a cummins 4bt is at all neccessary. Im aware that it can be dialed up to produce mass quantaties of torque, but i wonder if you need all that. The 1.9l will allow for well over 200lbs torque. I wonder how that translates into our "use." Does this allow for the jeep to be a bit faster than it is? Does this allow for better economy? It should def allow for a good amount more power and im sure you would def feel it. My question is, given the fact that it produces those figures, is there a need for a 4bt which has the potential to produce even higher figures but at the cost of such a heavy weight (over 700lbs??) while the 1.9l is lighter than even our 2.5l.
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here is another thought i had after talking to the 2nd Mate (owner of a 1.9l Golf TDI). I began thinking if a cummins 4bt is at all neccessary. Im aware that it can be dialed up to produce mass quantaties of torque, but i wonder if you need all that. The 1.9l will allow for well over 200lbs torque. I wonder how that translates into our "use." Does this allow for the jeep to be a bit faster than it is? Does this allow for better economy? It should def allow for a good amount more power and im sure you would def feel it. My question is, given the fact that it produces those figures, is there a need for a 4bt which has the potential to produce even higher figures but at the cost of such a heavy weight (over 700lbs??) while the 1.9l is lighter than even our 2.5l.
it's how much torque you have at what rpm, so it's better to have let's say 180ftlb of torque at 1000 rpm and that grows from there to a max of 220ftlb at 3000rpm than to have a max of 250ftlb at 4000rpm but it starts at 100ftlb at 1000rpm (numbers are for the sake of argument). that allows for shorter shifts and better fuel economy, not to mention the less wear on the engine.
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The 1.9l is a great engine. The 2nd Mate on my ship currently has one in his Golf (2000) and easily gets around 45mpg, if he's easy on it, he gets around 50. He says his VW weighs in at around 3800lbs. He doesnt think spooling it up to 165hp will be healthy for it though...you may run the risk of blowing it.
The reason i was looking at the 4bt is that i figure if that motor is good enough to pull around a box van easily, it would pull around the jeep with no problems and possibly do so at real good efficiency. I am aware of the need for a new front suspension if i go that route. Given the lack of electronics, i think that may be cheaper than the 1.9l swap.
Jeffy, is it even possible for someone to get a 2.5l VM motor in this country?? I take it you would prob go with the 1.9l if you were to swap to diesel?
Diesels are built inherently stronger which makes more acceptable for mild tunes. The key to getting a dependable engine is not mod it too much. Same thing goes for gas engines that are turbo'ed or supercharged.
I think there are several reasons why people are crapping on the 1.9L. It's the same reasons people crap on the 2.5L. People are building bigger and bigger. Jeeps are getting heavier and heavier. People are also wanting bigger. Sometimes for the sake of just being bigger. Although it really depends on what you want to do. Unless you're going to make a big rockcrawler buggy, I don't think the 4BT is a good choice. Same goes for the Isuzu 4BD1T which is used in the cab over trucks. It's similar to the 4BT but more common as it's used as a heavy-truck engine.
You can occasionally find a 2.5 L VM Motori CRD in the US but they aren't DOT legal. There was a place in FL that was selling crate engines for export. I forget what it was called. Problem is you're really limited on parts availability.
The real problem is there are very few small light truck diesels in the US. Trucks usually have a big diesel while cars typically have a really small diesel. The VW 1.9L is on the small side but I think it's fine for a Jeep as long as you're not overloading your Jeep. Cost-wise a 4.0L would be a better swap. A 1.9L is a bit about being a little different. Being able to run diesel is a plus though. Better mileage is also nice but would take several years to ever break even on an engine swap. Although the extended range is good for time when you're not going to be near a gas station for a while. Engine swaps aren't really cost-effective.
I would love an extra 140TQ on the stock 2.5L with no change in HP but that's not possible.
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Diesels are built inherently stronger which makes more acceptable for mild tunes. The key to getting a dependable engine is not mod it too much. Same thing goes for gas engines that are turbo'ed or supercharged.
I think there are several reasons why people are crapping on the 1.9L. It's the same reasons people crap on the 2.5L. People are building bigger and bigger. Jeeps are getting heavier and heavier. People are also wanting bigger. Sometimes for the sake of just being bigger. Although it really depends on what you want to do. Unless you're going to make a big rockcrawler buggy, I don't think the 4BT is a good choice. Same goes for the Isuzu 4BD1T which is used in the cab over trucks. It's similar to the 4BT but more common as it's used as a heavy-truck engine.
You can occasionally find a 2.5 L VM Motori CRD in the US but they aren't DOT legal. There was a place in FL that was selling crate engines for export. I forget what it was called. Problem is you're really limited on parts availability.
The real problem is there are very few small light truck diesels in the US. Trucks usually have a big diesel while cars typically have a really small diesel. The VW 1.9L is on the small side but I think it's fine for a Jeep as long as you're not overloading your Jeep. Cost-wise a 4.0L would be a better swap. A 1.9L is a bit about being a little different. Being able to run diesel is a plus though. Better mileage is also nice but would take several years to ever break even on an engine swap. Although the extended range is good for time when you're not going to be near a gas station for a while. Engine swaps aren't really cost-effective.
I would love an extra 140TQ on the stock 2.5L with no change in HP but that's not possible.
My end result with the jeep is to build a 4x4 vehicle that has a good balance between off roader and DD. Something that i can travel long distances with, like an expedition vehicle. Id like to get a setup that is close to what LR offers (300TDI and a 2.4l??). THose vehicles (and the model comparable toyotas) make great expedition vehicles and are used pretty much everywhere. If i could get my hands on the diesel engine that was offered overseas in the wrangler, i would be happy. I cant however, so im looking for the next closest thing. It sounds like you are saying the 4bt may be overkill...so my question is, would the 1.9l be closest to the setup i want ie: power (i would like a healthy amount of torque), long range, longevity, efficiency, and id like to run a snorkel and not have to worry about water damage (the 1.9l carries a host of electronics, the 4bt does not).
Also, i think there may be such a thing as TOO MUCH power. How much torque do you really need given what we drive, it's not like we use our wranglers to haul lumber. Id like to have a disel that can idle up a decent incline and take me through trails without too much fuss, and get me to highway speed in a decent amount of time, though a bit quicker than what i have now.... Will a tuned 1.9 be able to offer that? Im thinking id like around 200hp, 300 torque. Torque, being more important.
Thoughts?
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My end result with the jeep is to build a 4x4 vehicle that has a good balance between off roader and DD. Something that i can travel long distances with, like an expedition vehicle. Id like to get a setup that is close to what LR offers (300TDI and a 2.4l??). THose vehicles (and the model comparable toyotas) make great expedition vehicles and are used pretty much everywhere. If i could get my hands on the diesel engine that was offered overseas in the wrangler, i would be happy. I cant however, so im looking for the next closest thing. It sounds like you are saying the 4bt may be overkill...so my question is, would the 1.9l be closest to the setup i want ie: power (i would like a healthy amount of torque), long range, longevity, efficiency, and id like to run a snorkel and not have to worry about water damage (the 1.9l carries a host of electronics, the 4bt does not).
Also, i think there may be such a thing as TOO MUCH power. How much torque do you really need given what we drive, it's not like we use our wranglers to haul lumber. Id like to have a disel that can idle up a decent incline and take me through trails without too much fuss, and get me to highway speed in a decent amount of time, though a bit quicker than what i have now.... Will a tuned 1.9 be able to offer that? Im thinking id like around 200hp, 300 torque. Torque, being more important.
Thoughts?
Buy a 2.8L CRD from AEV if you want a 2.8L. Otherwise buy a Liberty and do an engine swap.
Torque is what gets you up to speed fast not HP. It's also what keep you going up hills. So yes, 280 lbs-ft is significantly more then your 140 lbs-ft. If you want a 200hp and 300ft-lbs then get a Chevy 5.3L V8.
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I would not touch anything made by VM motori with a ten foot pole.
The Cummins 4BT is a slug in those box trucks, it reliable except for the Bosch injection pumps on then, they love to develop fuel leaks around the pump shafts and it's a very expensive repair unless you find the special tool for it. They way a ton for it's low power output, leak oil worse than an English motorcycle. If you want to do that much work use a 6BT or ISB engine much better power to weight ratio.
Personally I would like to stuff the Mercedes Sprinter van engine in a Jeep, that engine makes very good power and is not big or heavy.
At this time for a diesel conversion that is available the Volkswagen 1.9 is your best bet. Is it worth the money, or do you get a good return on your investment heck no.
I would use a 4.3 GM engine with a 700r4 or ls 460E and call it good. Much cheaper and not a hard conversion, gives you a good return on your investment, reasonably good power and torque and is a well proven setup that wheels well and gets decent milage
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How difficult is it to get the VW, Toyota or BMW diesels in the US? Here they are a dime a dozen... Actually, my daily driver is a Toyota 3.0L turbo diesel with intercooler that packs a nice and steady torque curve. Gear it right, and it would plain ROCK! You could probably also increase boost for a dedicated rig and get even more power out of it... I know TRD makes some mods for that engine, as the platform of the Fortuner is the same as the HiLux, and I saw one really nicely equiped the weekend before last with 38 boggers that ran AWESOME.
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im thinking the VW or 2.8l may be a good bet. Dont think i really need all the power the 4bt is putting down. 280lb-ft (1.9l) is waaay more than what we have stock. may be able to dial it up just a tad. i dont know what numbers the 2.8l is putting down, but it's prob around that, if not more. Electronics are what would scare me...just have to make sure it all is water tight. I think that AEV conversion is like 30k though!!!! I dont know if one could just buy the engine from AEV, but it would prob be expensive.
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im thinking the VW or 2.8l may be a good bet. Dont think i really need all the power the 4bt is putting down. 280lb-ft (1.9l) is waaay more than what we have stock. may be able to dial it up just a tad. i dont know what numbers the 2.8l is putting down, but it's prob around that, if not more. Electronics are what would scare me...just have to make sure it all is water tight. I think that AEV conversion is like 30k though!!!! I dont know if one could just buy the engine from AEV, but it would prob be expensive.
A complete Toyota HiLux in Panama is around $20K; I am sure you could get an engine out of a totaled one for under $5K (maybe around $2K). You would still need to match it to the Jeep, though...
For your reference, the 1KD-FTW Turbo Diesel 3.0L 4-cylinder (yeah, you would still have a 4-banger!) engine (found in hiLux, Fortuners, and God knows where else) puts out 160HP and (the best part) 252 ft lbs from 1,400 rpms all the way to 3,200 rpms...
1KD-FTV
First appearing in 2000, the 1KD-FTV is one of the newest engines built by Toyota.
The 1KD-FTV is a 3.0L (2982cc) straight-4 common rail diesel engine with a variable geometry turbocharger and Intercooler. It has 16 valves and a DOHC (double overhead camshaft) design. Bore is 96 mm and stroke is 103 mm. It generates 170 hp (125 kW) at 3400 rpm, and 260 lbf·ft (352 N·m) of torque at 1800-3400 rpm. Redline of this engine is at 4200 RPM. Compression ratio is 17.9:1.
This engine uses Toyota's D-4D Common Rail fuel injection technology operating at ultra high pressures of up to 135 mpa (1350 bar or about 19,580psig) which is about 8 times more than the pressure of conventional fuel injection systems within a "common rail" that feeds the injectors on all four cylinders (older diesel engines have a separate line leading from the injection pump to each injector). This is combined with a 32-bit ECU which controls fuel quantity, valve-timing, and boost pressure at different engine parameters resulting in best fuel economy and also full utilization of power during acceleration. Pilot injection is also utilized by the common rail fuel system to smooth engine operation. Small amounts of fuel are introduced into the combustion chamber prior to the main injection event, reducing lag time and promoting more continuous and complete combustion. Exterior and interior engine noise is also reduced.
The 1KD engine produces 17% more horsepower with 11% less fuel consumption than its predecessor, the 1KZ engine.
This engine was first used in Toyota Land Cruiser Prado, 3rd Generation Hilux Surf and now used in the Toyota Fortuner, Hiace and Toyota Hilux.
It presents a big issue with the injectors which is still pending to be solved. In Spain, they change the injectors within the first 7 seven years after buy, but still no solution is provided by the manufacturer.
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How difficult is it to get the VW, Toyota or BMW diesels in the US? Here they are a dime a dozen... Actually, my daily driver is a Toyota 3.0L turbo diesel with intercooler that packs a nice and steady torque curve. Gear it right, and it would plain ROCK! You could probably also increase boost for a dedicated rig and get even more power out of it... I know TRD makes some mods for that engine, as the platform of the Fortuner is the same as the HiLux, and I saw one really nicely equiped the weekend before last with 38 boggers that ran AWESOME.
The VW would be the easiest as they have those in all 50 states. Toyota, Mitsubishi or even a Nissan would need to be imported as a 'front cut' and would probably cost around $3000-5000 I think. (I'm pretty sure I mentioned them early on in the thread) The engine's wouldn't be DOT legal although, I do know of some Toyota Diesels coming across the border from the North that have been CA legal and SMOG exempt. Really though, I think the VW is probably going to be the best bet because of it's availability.
I agree with Art on the VM. As nice as it might sound, the EGR failing isn't something to take lightly. When that fails your SOL as the engine won't run properly. It's not like a gas engine where it's no big deal if the emissions craps out. So you better be carrying a spare.
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I saw one really nicely equiped the weekend before last with 38 boggers that ran AWESOME.
This is the one I was talking about:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/Jamboree%202011%204x4%20Extremo/DSC00398.jpg)
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A Cummins 4BT may seem a bit underpowered if you leave it stock - but they build up like a 6BT and you can easily make more power than a stock Jeep's driveline can handle. At around 800 lbs, they are a bit hefty on a little Jeep's front end. Toss in some decent injectors, a bigger turbo, turn up the IP - and you can twist up the axles and shred the differentials like they were made of play doh.
A GM 6.2/6.5 might be a good candidate - they are lighter than the 4BT and put out gobs of torque. The engine mounts and the transmission bolt pattern are the same as a SBC, so the swap should not be that difficult. Army surplus 6.2's are often available and relatively inexpensive. A J-code 6.2 puts out ~ 150 hp and ~250 lb-ft, that should scoot a Jeep around pretty nicely even without a turbo. This one would be my choice, but I do have 2 of these engines in my shop.
The venerable Benz 3.0 liter 5 cylinder turbodiesel OM617 is a tough one to beat. They put out adequate power that can be enhanced to pretty serious levels (Check out some of the YouTube videos of fast diesel Benzes). There are adapters available to help with the swap. Fuel economy is good, the engines are well known for their durability and there are a lot of them out there. I picked up a rusty 300SD just for the engine, the rest of the vehicle will be scrapped and in between I'll part out as much of it as I can. The net cost of the driveline should be zero.
Save the little VW TDI's for the Suzuki/Geo crowd. It's a bit small for a Jeep. They can be turned up, but to make adequate power it will cost.
Sorry if these options aren't available in California - it's gotta suck to live in that state! At least rust isn't the issue it is up north. It should be possible to find a nice CJ7 and drop a Benz engine into it of the right vintage...
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A Cummins 4BT may seem a bit underpowered if you leave it stock - but they build up like a 6BT and you can easily make more power than a stock Jeep's driveline can handle. At around 800 lbs, they are a bit hefty on a little Jeep's front end. Toss in some decent injectors, a bigger turbo, turn up the IP - and you can twist up the axles and shred the differentials like they were made of play doh.
A GM 6.2/6.5 might be a good candidate - they are lighter than the 4BT and put out gobs of torque. The engine mounts and the transmission bolt pattern are the same as a SBC, so the swap should not be that difficult. Army surplus 6.2's are often available and relatively inexpensive. A J-code 6.2 puts out ~ 150 hp and ~250 lb-ft, that should scoot a Jeep around pretty nicely even without a turbo. This one would be my choice, but I do have 2 of these engines in my shop.
The venerable Benz 3.0 liter 5 cylinder turbodiesel OM617 is a tough one to beat. They put out adequate power that can be enhanced to pretty serious levels (Check out some of the YouTube videos of fast diesel Benzes). There are adapters available to help with the swap. Fuel economy is good, the engines are well known for their durability and there are a lot of them out there. I picked up a rusty 300SD just for the engine, the rest of the vehicle will be scrapped and in between I'll part out as much of it as I can. The net cost of the driveline should be zero.
Save the little VW TDI's for the Suzuki/Geo crowd. It's a bit small for a Jeep. They can be turned up, but to make adequate power it will cost.
Sorry if these options aren't available in California - it's gotta suck to live in that state! At least rust isn't the issue it is up north. It should be possible to find a nice CJ7 and drop a Benz engine into it of the right vintage...
6BT is a huge engine and too big for most Jeeps.
The GM 6.2L was a decent engine buy really lacked power. Drive around an 80's Chevy even a K5 and it's slow.
Diesel swaps aren't a big issue with older Jeeps. Older the better. There has even been a legal 4BT swap done. There's a shop in CA that does Merc Diesel swaps in LC's. It would be a good choice if you can legally do the install. It's cost prohibited to to a later 90's swap as those Mercs are few and far not to mention expensive.
I wouldn't use a VW TDI for a 39" buggy but for a Expo rig or a light weight crawler on 33's or even 35's it would be fine.
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6BT is a huge engine and too big for most Jeeps.
The GM 6.2L was a decent engine buy really lacked power. Drive around an 80's Chevy even a K5 and it's slow.
Diesel swaps aren't a big issue with older Jeeps. Older the better. There has even been a legal 4BT swap done. There's a shop in CA that does Merc Diesel swaps in LC's. It would be a good choice if you can legally do the install. It's cost prohibited to to a later 90's swap as those Mercs are few and far not to mention expensive.
I wouldn't use a VW TDI for a 39" buggy but for a Expo rig or a light weight crawler on 33's or even 35's it would be fine.
I concur on the 6BT, it's almost 1/2 the weight of a Jeep by itself! The 4BT can use the same injectors, the IP mods that work on the 6BT all work on the 4BT and the bigger turbo will make it go well enough. You can build them to an unusable amount of power, it's really overkill for a Jeep.
The 6.2 was good enough for the Humvee, you want a J-code model with a slightly turned up IP. It'll move a Jeep better than a 4.2 will and give you more torque to do it with. Toss in the turbo off a 6.5 (or a Banks kit) and you'll have more than enough go power. But - how can you belittle "slow" on a 4 cylinder Jeep forum? ::)
The OM617 is a particularly good engine - it's quite economical and is more durable than almost any other engine. 500k miles is common and many of them last much longer. Usually the rest of the vehicle wears out before the engine does. Late Benz diesels had some issues (check out the "Rod Bender") and the computer controls always complicate things. The OM617 was all mechanical.
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Lets talk cost of swapping in a diesel. I think i may start looking to do this when i get home in october. Id like to get an idea of all the parts ill need to complete the swap.
lets assume ill go with the 1.9 or the 4bt.
Aside from the engine, ill need a new tranny, transfer case, fuel pump and fuel lines. I dont even know what kind of a tranny would bolt up to the 1.9VW. Would i pull the fuel pump from the VW? what if i want A/C. My jeep doesnt have A/C now, but if i were to do this swap i wouldnt mind having it. Lastly, what about the axles? I will absolutely be getting rid of my d35 when i get home, im keeping the d30. Ill most likely gear to 4.56. With a diesel, i dont think my ratios will work anymore. The d44 will hold up im sure to the torque put out by even a tuned 1.9, but what about the d30?
Any of you think this swap can be done for under $10k ?
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talking vw
for a/c: get a motor that has the compressor on it so you don't have to figure out mounts, idler pulleys and serpentine belt. use the rest of the system from TJ salvage parts.
transmission: best bet is to get the AX15/NV3550 adapted to the engine, otherwise would be a challenge to find something that will bolt-on to the 1.9 vw and work in the Jeep. only big problem here is to get the clutch working (you might end up with a frankensteined one to match the diameter of the vw clutch), the adapter plate can be done at a machine shop but i have no idea how extensive the machining will be and how complicated or not the adapter will be - can be done and probably most importan step in the whole process.
you will also need the full harness with the fuel injection computer and accessories/sensors.
d30 will be fine imo, of course a stronger axle will always be a plus
as far as pricing goes that depends mostly on how much you spend on the engine with harness and ECU and how much the adapter will take you, i would think $10k will be enough, can't think of costing more and to be honest it's steep at that price. A rolled over, totalled vw would probably be best if there was no big front impact or the engine didn't suffer a big hit to be more specific (so no broken parts or bent crankshaft).
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talking vw
for a/c: get a motor that has the compressor on it so you don't have to figure out mounts, idler pulleys and serpentine belt. use the rest of the system from TJ salvage parts.
transmission: best bet is to get the AX15/NV3550 adapted to the engine, otherwise would be a challenge to find something that will bolt-on to the 1.9 vw and work in the Jeep. only big problem here is to get the clutch working (you might end up with a frankensteined one to match the diameter of the vw clutch), the adapter plate can be done at a machine shop but i have no idea how extensive the machining will be and how complicated or not the adapter will be - can be done and probably most importan step in the whole process.
you will also need the full harness with the fuel injection computer and accessories/sensors.
d30 will be fine imo, of course a stronger axle will always be a plus
as far as pricing goes that depends mostly on how much you spend on the engine with harness and ECU and how much the adapter will take you, i would think $10k will be enough, can't think of costing more and to be honest it's steep at that price. A rolled over, totalled vw would probably be best if there was no big front impact or the engine didn't suffer a big hit to be more specific (so no broken parts or bent crankshaft).
this is becoming tempting. i think i might wanna keep it an auto. less modification i would think. id have to find an auto that would hold up.
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anyone know if theres an auto tranny that would work with the 1.9 VW, or an auto that would work with the 4bt?
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anyone know if theres an auto tranny that would work with the 1.9 VW, or an auto that would work with the 4bt?
Kinda going to the two extremes with the diesel idea aren't you? I would suspect you could make an adapter plate if you really wanted to. As for an off the shelf option, I don't think so. You'll want to check out Toyota sites and see what they use.
The 4BT on the other hand uses a GM 90* bolt pattern which is why you can bolt a TH400 to it.
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Kinda going to the two extremes with the diesel idea aren't you?
ive been into the idea for as long as ive had the jeep. now that it seems financially feasible, im trying to gather all the info i can so that i can appreciate the depth of the project. Id like to keep it an auto if i can (i like wheeling that way, a bit easier for me) but if i have to switch to manual i suppose i would.
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Just saw this www.dieselbruiser.com They are doing a conversion to a 4bt in JK's. Saw this in 4wheel & Off-road.
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I'm leaning towards a VW TDI swap this summer.
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I'm leaning towards a VW TDI swap this summer.
Any nows on that?
I am thinking the same thing.
Would like to run 33" and some trailer. The VW TDI should handle that, right?
Its the MPG I am seeking .Anyone know where I could read about this how would it be best to tackle?
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There is actually a company that makes a kit to put the VW TDI 1.9 into a Jeep. It makes about the same HP as our 2.5 stock, but about 50% more torque. And you can increase boost and other things.
Downside is I hear because of the increased stress the Jeep places on the engine you pretty much have to change your timing belt like every 30K miles to prevent it from snapping and destroying valves.
http://www.hpamotorsport.com/tdijeep.htm
Also after the cost of the kit and the VW motor, it would probably just be cheaper to own a TDI jetta to drive around half the time. But certainly not as cool.
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New Magazine just came out Diesel Swaps.
They list several companies
http://www.anvilandco.com/
http://www.bruiserconversions.com/
This one list conversion kits for jeep 76-2013.
http://jdjeeps.com/