4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Jeffy on February 12, 2010, 12:27:37 PM
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a few things need to be considered when choosing an injector. the ones you see referred to as 19# injectors are actually 18.4lb/hr (or something like that) but the pressure at which they are rated is 43.5psi. your YJ runs at 39psi - the resulting flow is less than stock if you install those injectors. They are also a different type, the design III have 4 holes and are disc compared to pintle on the stock ones (design III are better than stock). if your goal is more power you need to look for an injector that flows between 5 to 10% more than the stock ones so your result is reasonable and not flooding the engine with fuel. the alternative is an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, hesco makes direct fit ones - increasing the fuel pressure will increase the fuel delivery at wot (wide open throttle). for best results a combination of the 2 would work, design III injectors and and adjustable FPR. i don't have an injector p/n that i know for sure will give you the result you're looking for just by itself but you can research and use an online injector flow calculator (google that) to determine the resulting flow on the YJ fuel pressure.
This brings up a related subject. Why not convert the Jeeps system to a 43.5psi system with a OEM pressure regulator. It's a lot cheaper then buying the Hesco adj..
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This brings up a related subject. Why not convert the Jeeps system to a 43.5psi system with a OEM pressure regulator. It's a lot cheaper then buying the Hesco adj..
that would work - is there a direct fit FPR at 43.5psi?
the adjustable hesco is preset for 44psi i think, so same ballpark.
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that would work - is there a direct fit FPR at 43.5psi?
the adjustable hesco is preset for 44psi i think, so same ballpark.
I've been hearing that there is but I haven't looked into it.
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This guy seems to know what he's talking about. I've seen his original posts elsewhere as well.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/diy-fuel-injectors-clean-904158/
The FPR part #:
ACDELCO 2172151
AIRTEX 5G1087 aftermarket
BIG A 82-211 aftermarket
BIG A 82-24 aftermarket
BORG WARNER 23021 aftermarket
CHRYSLER 4418850 OEM
CHRYSLER 5277829 OEM
CHRYSLER 5277864 OEM
DELPHI FP10046 FP10072
ECHLIN 2-19681 aftermarket
FILKO PR-144 aftermarket
FILKO PR-215 aftermarket
GP/SORENSEN 800-136 aftermarket
GP/SORENSEN 800-323 aftermarket
KEM 143-611 aftermarket
KEM 143-614 aftermarket
NIEHOFF 23021 aftermarket
STANDARD PR211 aftermarket
STANDARD PR24 aftermarket
TOMCO 21132 aftermarket
WELLS PR320 aftermarket
NAPA 219681
And here is a complete list of the cars these FPR can be found in:
Delivery Years
CHRYSLER CONCORDE V6 3.5 F FI 1993-1995
CHRYSLER CONCORDE LX V6 3.5 F FI 1996-1997
CHRYSLER CONCORDE LXI V6 3.5 F FI 1996-1997
CHRYSLER DYNASTY V6 3.3 R FI 1991-1993
CHRYSLER IMPERIAL V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1991
CHRYSLER IMPERIAL V6 3.8 L FI 1991-1993
CHRYSLER INTREPID V6 3.5 F FI 1993-1997
CHRYSLER INTREPID ES V6 3.5 F FI 1995-1996
CHRYSLER LHS V6 3.5 F FI 1994-1997
CHRYSLER NEW YORKER V6 3.5 F FI 1994-1996
CHRYSLER NEW YORKER FIFTH AVENUE V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1993
CHRYSLER NEW YORKER FIFTH AVENUE V6 3.8 L FI 1991-1993
CHRYSLER NEW YORKER LANDAU V6 3.3 R FI 1990
CHRYSLER NEW YORKER SALON V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1993
CHRYSLER TC MASERATI V6 3.0 S FI 1990
CHRYSLER TOWN & COUNTRY V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1993
CHRYSLER TOWN & COUNTRY V6 3.8 L FI 1994-1995
DODGE CARAVAN V6 3.3 J FI 1994-1995
DODGE CARAVAN V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1995
DODGE CARAVAN C/V V6 3.3 J FI 1994-1995
DODGE CARAVAN C/V V6 3.3 R FI 1991-1992
DODGE CARAVAN ES V6 3.3 R FI 1993-1995
DODGE CARAVAN LE V6 3.3 R FI 1991-1995
DODGE CARAVAN SE V6 3.3 J FI 1994-1995
DODGE CARAVAN SE V6 3.3 R FI 1991-1995
DODGE DYNASTY V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1993
DODGE DYNASTY LE V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1993
DODGE GRAND CARAVAN ES V6 3.3 R FI 1993-1995
DODGE GRAND CARAVAN ES V6 3.8 L FI 1994-1995
DODGE GRAND CARAVAN LE V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1995
DODGE GRAND CARAVAN LE V6 3.8 L FI 1994-1995
DODGE GRAND CARAVAN SE V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1995
DODGE INTREPID V6 3.5 F FI 1993-1997
DODGE INTREPID ES V6 3.5 F FI 1993-1997
DODGE SPIRIT L4 2.5 V FI 1994
EAGLE VISION ESI V6 3.5 F FI 1995-1997
EAGLE VISION TSI V6 3.5 F FI 1993-1997
PLYMOUTH ACCLAIM L4 2.5 V FI 1994
PLYMOUTH GRAND VOYAGER LE V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1995
PLYMOUTH GRAND VOYAGER LE V6 3.8 L FI 1994-1995
PLYMOUTH GRAND VOYAGER SE V6 3.3 R FI 1990-1994
PLYMOUTH GRAND VOYAGER SE V6 3.8 L FI 1995
PLYMOUTH PROWLER V6 3.5 F FI 1997
PLYMOUTH VOYAGER V6 3.3 J FI 1994-1995
PLYMOUTH VOYAGER V6 3.3 R FI 1995
PLYMOUTH VOYAGER LE V6 3.3 R FI 1991-1995
PLYMOUTH VOYAGER LX V6 3.3 R FI 1994
PLYMOUTH VOYAGER SE V6 3.3 J FI 1994
PLYMOUTH VOYAGER SE V6 3.3 R FI 1991-1995
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Do you think the 50 PSI would be to much? Seems the go from 41-50 PSI.
I was looking at doing this a few months ago, there is a thread on this board somewhere.
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Do you think the 50 PSI would be to much? Seems the go from 41-50 PSI.
I was looking at doing this a few months ago, there is a thread on this board somewhere.
yes, it's too much.
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yes, it's too much.
At idle he says it's 41psi.
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At idle he says it's 41psi.
Idle = 41PSI
WOT = 50PSI
What PSI do you think 1/2 throttle would be? 45-46?
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Idle = 41PSI
WOT = 50PSI
What PSI do you think 1/2 throttle would be? 45-46?
it doesn't matter at 1/2 throttle - at that position you're in closed loop. you always calculate at wot where vacuum has no bearing and the pcm is in open loop (so there's no o2 feedback). but to answer your question at 1/2 throttle and 900 rpm can be 48psi but at 4000rpm can be 44 psi - \he same for the stock one (38 and 34 for example) so the absolute difference between the 2 would be the same if you compare at the same throttle pos and rpm - i had the supercharger on with that much pressure and was blowing black smoke so i still think it's too much - but i'll run some numbers later on and tell you the difference.
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Ok, I split this off the other topic since we are getting into more specific things.
So the YJ's fuel pressure is 31 psi at the fuel rail and jumps to 39 psi when vacuum is applied.
(*The TJ on the other hand, is regulating it to 49.2 psi +/-5 psi at idle. This happened in 1996.)
Stock Injectors are rated at 17.4 psi @ 39 psi. Ford 19 psi are 17.3 psi @ 39 psi.
So would we need a 33-42 psi FPR to get an actual 19 psi at the fuel rail? Is that right?
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So would we need a 33-42 psi FPR to get an actual 19 psi at the fuel rail? Is that right?
If that is the right pressures does such a FPR exist that would bolt right in?
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Ok, I split this off the other topic since we are getting into more specific things.
So the YJ's fuel pressure is 31 psi at the fuel rail and jumps to 39 psi when vacuum is applied.
(*The TJ on the other hand, is regulating it to 49.2 psi +/-5 psi at idle. This happened in 1996.)
Stock Injectors are rated at 17.4 psi (at) 39 psi. Ford 19 psi are 17.3 psi (at) 39 psi.
So would we need a 33-42 psi FPR to get an actual 19 psi at the fuel rail? Is that right?
to make it simple - if the 19# rating is at 43.5psi - that's what the FPR should be at (EDIT: to have that flow). My understanding is that they are less than 19lb/hr, so 44 it's ok.
you don't usually look at the idle pressure - it varies with the altitude and the health of the engine (how much vacuum is "seen" at the vac port by the FPR).
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to make it simple - if the 19# rating is at 43.5psi - that's what the FPR should be at (EDIT: to have that flow). My understanding is that they are less than 19lb/hr, so 44 it's ok.
you don't usually look at the idle pressure - it varies with the altitude and the health of the engine (how much vacuum is "seen" at the vac port by the FPR).
So 44 psi would be WOT right?
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I am interested in this as well... I would love to increase FP, but the Hesco pricing makes it prohibitive, so let me know which is the right one (and preferably, before May, as I will be in the US then, and can probably have them sent to my friend's house where I will stay at in Miami).
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So 44 psi would be WOT right?
correct. if you have an adjustable one you just remove the vac port to set the wot pressure.
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correct. if you have an adjustable one you just remove the vac port to set the wot pressure.
Ok, now I have to dom some digging. I haven't seen much for specs on OE FPR's though.
On another side note; I was thinking, would there be any problems mounting an aftermarket FPR to the frame in front of the fuel filter? That would really clear up a lot of messy routing in the rail. Then you'd just have to disable the stock FPR.
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Ok, now I have to dom some digging. I haven't seen much for specs on OE FPR's though.
On another side note; I was thinking, would there be any problems mounting an aftermarket FPR to the frame in front of the fuel filter? That would really clear up a lot of messy routing in the rail. Then you'd just have to disable the stock FPR.
i would suggest a dampner in that case like on the TJ the fuel rail to eliminate pulsation, but yes, should work. I picked up an extra stock fpr today and will look and see if it can be modified and make it adjustable - i'll let you know tomorrow how that goes.
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I can't find any reference manuals online for FPR's. Might have to send a email to a mfg ad ask them if they have one that matches the stock in side but a 44 PSI unit.
Not sure how you'd get a dampener into the mix. I feared that you might get pulsation with the regulator so far back though.
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I can't find any reference manuals online for FPR's. Might have to send a email to a mfg ad ask them if they have one that matches the stock in side but a 44 PSI unit.
Not sure how you'd get a dampener into the mix. I feared that you might get pulsation with the regulator so far back though.
i think the one on the TJ is installed just like the YJ fpr but the feed is right on it as opposed to the one on YJ where the FPR is on the return. the easiest would be to put a TJ dampner where the stock FPR is but i'm not sure how that is built (they look the same but i don't think it will block the return). i just cut one of the stock fprs i have - i think i can make it work and turn it into an adjustable, need to do some more brainstorming tomorrow.
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Hmm, I'll have to look into that later.
I might be interested in one of those adj. stock units for a review once you get it sorted.
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Hmm, I'll have to look into that later.
I might be interested in one of those adj. stock units for a review once you get it sorted.
sure, if i get it to work first one is yours
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Hmm, I'll have to look into that later.
I might be interested in one of those adj. stock units for a review once you get it sorted.
ok, finished the prototype - my battery was dead so i couldn't preset it - i'll try to do it sometime this week and let you know how it goes. got it at 42 psi but then it jumped to 46 and i realized it's the battery barely spinning the pump so my guess it is probably over 50 now, i'll get a charged one on and get it set at 44. If all goes well i'll ship it over to you after that.
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ok, finished the prototype - my battery was dead so i couldn't preset it - i'll try to do it sometime this week and let you know how it goes. got it at 42 psi but then it jumped to 46 and i realized it's the battery barely spinning the pump so my guess it is probably over 50 now, i'll get a charged one on and get it set at 44. If all goes well i'll ship it over to you after that.
How easy is it to modify them? Simple tools or are we talking about major surgery?
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How easy is it to modify them? Simple tools or are we talking about major surgery?
major surgery - cut it open, threaded on the outside, made a cylinder with a matching inside thread, screw and nut at the other end, the screw has a step down that fits in a disc that also fits snug on the spring, 1/8'' NPT thread on one side for the vac fitting. assembled together with teflon paste so there's no vac leak.
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Can you take some pictures so we can see what it's like?
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I would like to see that as well.... And would not mind getting one! I think I still got a stocker somewhere laying around (used to have 2, but I dont remember if I gave them away when I left Miami or if I left them in the Jeep back in Panama; I'll check in March!).
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not the best pic but you get the idea
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/FPR_Modded.jpg)
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I would like to see that as well.... And would not mind getting one! I think I still got a stocker somewhere laying around (used to have 2, but I dont remember if I gave them away when I left Miami or if I left them in the Jeep back in Panama; I'll check in March!).
if this works sure - i paid $20 for the stock one at the junkyard, dunno if it's worth shipping yours in that case, not sure how much the new ones are either, never had to buy one. I would guess that if i buy more of the used ones i can probably negotiate a lower price. I didn't figured out a price for a modified one yet (took quite a bit to make this one, but was a lot of discovery work as well) but let's wait and see how the prototype works and we go from there.
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I just found this post and I have a few questions as I am trying to learn as I go. Does increasing the fuel pressure at the fuel rail do anything besides increasing the fuel volume being injected into the intake? What are the befits to an adjustable FPR versus a properly selected non-adjustable FPR? As a follow up, are the adjustments made multiple times or primarily just to fine tune it to your vehicle.
Thanks for the information
Bill
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I just found this post and I have a few questions as I am trying to learn as I go. Does increasing the fuel pressure at the fuel rail do anything besides increasing the fuel volume being injected into the intake? What are the befits to an adjustable FPR versus a properly selected non-adjustable FPR? As a follow up, are the adjustments made multiple times or primarily just to fine tune it to your vehicle.
Thanks for the information
Bill
Increasing the PSI at the rail will inscrease the amount of fuel and also help the spray pattern to some extent depending on the injectors being used. Many of us running Ford 19# injectors are actually running 17.3# which is marginally less then the stock which are 17.4#. Since they are running under their optimal pressure the spray pattern might not be as good as it could be, but still better then stock. Bumping that back up will help with the spray and also the amount of fuel.
This isn't something you want to screw around with unless you have other modifications that can take advantage of it.
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I just found this post and I have a few questions as I am trying to learn as I go. Does increasing the fuel pressure at the fuel rail do anything besides increasing the fuel volume being injected into the intake? What are the befits to an adjustable FPR versus a properly selected non-adjustable FPR? As a follow up, are the adjustments made multiple times or primarily just to fine tune it to your vehicle.
Thanks for the information
Bill
pretty much what Jeffy said but to add to that: if you have a larger throttle body and/or high flow intake/filter you can take advantage of the extra air by increasing the fuel quantity that is delivered - this is only for wide open throttle or close to that or to be more specific where the PCM (fuel injection computer) is operating in open loop without the O2 sensor feedback. It's hard to find a "properly selected" non-adjustable FPR that would match your mods as they are set from factory with a standard pressure for the vehicle they are meant for, the adjustable gives you a bit more flexibility and can be used with stock injectors and also with upgraded injectors like the Ford 19# to correct the resulting flow which would be less than stock in case they are installed in the Jeep (less fuel pressure). Also one thing to mention is that this one is for 91-95 EFI engines, the 96+ FPR is different and located at the fuel tank.
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Also one thing to mention is that this one is for 91-95 EFI engines, the 96+ FPR is different and located at the fuel tank.
TJ's shouldn't have to worry about low fuel pressure since they are rated much higher then YJ's. 39 psi v. 49 psi
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TJ's shouldn't have to worry about low fuel pressure since they are rated much higher then YJ's. 39 psi v. 49 psi
not a worry - i didn't know what Jeep he has (i did see after i posted that it's a 91-95 from his sig). Same goes for the TJ, you can get more flow with a bit more pressure, the fpr is just different than the YJ that's why i mentioned it in case he was asking about that one.
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not a worry - i didn't know what Jeep he has (i did see after i posted that it's a 91-95 from his sig). Same goes for the TJ, you can get more flow with a bit more pressure, the fpr is just different than the YJ that's why i mentioned it in case he was asking about that one.
The TJ's use that funky fuel filter/FPR on the tank though. Wouldn't it be easier to just change the injectors since most are rated at 43#?
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The TJ's use that funky fuel filter/FPR on the tank though. Wouldn't it be easier to just change the injectors since most are rated at 43#?
you need a way to fine tune the afr - it is very unlikely that you will find a combination of an injector + a stock FPR that would be right on the spot with your mods and get you the desired afr in open loop. You could find an injector that is rated at 43.5 which would work well at 49 but the resulting flow would be too much, in that case you want to lower the pressure to get the propper flow.
it's gets more complicated when you get into forced induction as in that case you should also play with your O2 output to alter the afr in closed loop as well (so when you're in boost and your resulting comp ratio goes up you want to be on the rich side and not rely on the o2 feedback which is rather lean for a boost situation) - but that's a whole different topic.
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This makes sense. So once you have the adjustable FPR and what should be a proper injector, how do you fine tune it? Is it by ear, or is there a gauge, monitor, or something else to get a read out to make adjustments?
I have a cold air intake and will soon be installing a 62mm throttle body and spacer, a intake cleaned up to 62mm, and a Clifford header.
I am seriously considering boring my engine out .030 - .060. over and a crank and cam to get the most out of it.
My build will definitely be slow and in stages as this is my daily driver. Should I and at what point would I get the most benefit from an adjustable FPR.
Thank you both very much for the help and very good explanations.
Bill
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This makes sense. So once you have the adjustable FPR and what should be a proper injector, how do you fine tune it? Is it by ear, or is there a gauge, monitor, or something else to get a read out to make adjustments?
I have a cold air intake and will soon be installing a 62mm throttle body and spacer, a intake cleaned up to 62mm, and a Clifford header.
I am seriously considering boring my engine out .030 - .060. over and a crank and cam to get the most out of it.
My build will definitely be slow and in stages as this is my daily driver. Should I and at what point would I get the most benefit from an adjustable FPR.
Thank you both very much for the help and very good explanations.
Bill
you can use an adjustable FPR with your stock injectors. If you want to go by the books you would need a wideband O2 sensor that will tell you the exact afr outside of the 14.7 ideal. Or you can go by ear and target a richer afr in open loop and also consider your slightly improved VE by using the high flow intake and larger t/b. the increase in flow should be up to 10% using stock injectors, and probably starting at about 5% if you want to be conservative. In your case considering the mods you can definitely take advantage of a little extra fuel if you have one.
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Thanks, I will be watching this thread to see what else comes up. This is quite interesting, not just the effects but the theory behind it also.
Thanks again
Bill
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not the best pic but you get the idea
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/FPR_Modded.jpg)
so i finally got around to preset this - i set it at 43psi. Had trouble figuring out why i could not go below 48psi, turns out my return line is plugged. took it out and will ship it over to Jeffy for a review
this is a better picture than the one before
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/Adjustable_FPR_B1.jpg)
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That thing is coming together great. Is it adjusted by the bolt on the end? Also when you were talking about the return line I only see two places for lines, the copper elbow press on fitting on the bottom ant the small silver nipple opposite the bolt. Where does the return line come from and where does it go?
Thanks
Bill
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That thing is coming together great. Is it adjusted by the bolt on the end? Also when you were talking about the return line I only see two places for lines, the copper elbow press on fitting on the bottom ant the small silver nipple opposite the bolt. Where does the return line come from and where does it go?
Thanks
Bill
i was talking about the return line on my Jeep that connects to the fuel rail and goes back to the gastank - that is plugged somewhere along that route. the FPR was fine, i had trouble adjusting it so i ended up with a hose on the fuel rail and put the other end in a bottle to be able to adjust the pressure.
yes, it is adjusted by that screw and once adjusted you tighten the nut to secure the screw/bolt in place. Internally the screw is machined down to 3 mm and that end goes into a disk that seats on the spring that regulates the pressure. the brass fitting is the vac port.
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Ok, that makes more sense with the return line. and a very efficient and easy way to make changes. I look forward to seeing how this progresses.
Bill
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Same here. I'm going to be needing an adjustable FPR soon and I don't want to spend $130 + core or $200 on one.
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ok - i will pick up a couple of stock ones and mod them to be adjustable - $75 plus shipping (it's around $5 US or Canada) and the core charge (was $20 last time i picked one) - i am charged $3 for every parcel i receive in the US so the refund on the core would be $17 - i need back both the fpr and the mounting bracket or you can keep them for the $20.
you guys let me know if this is reasonable and i will go ahead and make 2 of them and have them preset to 43 psi. First come first serve on this so just reply here and whoever commits first gets it. If there are more takers i can make more once i receive the cores back.
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ok - i will pick up a couple of stock ones and mod them to be adjustable - $75 plus shipping (it's around $5 US or Canada) and the core charge (was $20 last time i picked one) - i am charged $3 for every parcel i receive in the US so the refund on the core would be $17 - i need back both the fpr and the mounting bracket or you can keep them for the $20.
you guys let me know if this is reasonable and i will go ahead and make 2 of them and have them preset to 43 psi. First come first serve on this so just reply here and whoever commits first gets it. If there are more takers i can make more once i receive the cores back.
Don't build one for me just yet. I need to see how much of my tax returns I'll be able to throw into this. They come next week.
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Don't build one for me just yet. I need to see how much of my tax returns I'll be able to throw into this. They come next week.
didn't count anyone in yet, still waiting for replies after i posted the price - i have none of the stock ones left so i need to go buy them and won't do it unless i know for sure someone wants them.
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ok - i will pick up a couple of stock ones and mod them to be adjustable - $75 plus shipping (it's around $5 US or Canada) and the core charge (was $20 last time i picked one) - i am charged $3 for every parcel i receive in the US so the refund on the core would be $17 - i need back both the fpr and the mounting bracket or you can keep them for the $20.
you guys let me know if this is reasonable and i will go ahead and make 2 of them and have them preset to 43 psi. First come first serve on this so just reply here and whoever commits first gets it. If there are more takers i can make more once i receive the cores back.
You might consider doing a CORE program so you don't have to buy a bunch all the time. Although they will have to be sent UPS to not get taxed on the Canadian side.
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You might consider doing a CORE program so you don't have to buy a bunch all the time. Although they will have to be sent UPS to not get taxed on the Canadian side.
what's a core program? i have a shipping address in the US so i don't get taxed on it (not for these as they are low value) but i do pay $3 for each item i receive. they can be shipped to Canada but the shipping will be more but under $20 value there is no tax (probably comes to the same amount in the end whether it goes to US and i pay the $3 fee or gets shipped to Canada and will probably be an extra 3 or 4 dollars).
that's why i was thinking in buying 2 and then roll them out, get the cores back and make more - don't want to buy any more than 2 of them as in the end i will end up with too many and have the $ stuck in them.
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I am interested. My Jeep is immobile right now anyway so I can have the FPR and mount heading your way this weekend; if it helps to have it ahead of time.
Bill
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what's a core program? i have a shipping address in the US so i don't get taxed on it (not for these as they are low value) but i do pay $3 for each item i receive. they can be shipped to Canada but the shipping will be more but under $20 value there is no tax (probably comes to the same amount in the end whether it goes to US and i pay the $3 fee or gets shipped to Canada and will probably be an extra 3 or 4 dollars). They send you their FPR and you credit them however much you want and then you send them a new one.
that's why i was thinking in buying 2 and then roll them out, get the cores back and make more - don't want to buy any more than 2 of them as in the end i will end up with too many and have the $ stuck in them.
It would be better to have them send you the FPR's United States Postal Service so it goes to Canada Mail and there are no taxes applied ever. The US Postal Service and Canada Mail have an agreement not to tax unlike if you send something UPS or Fedex.
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It would be better to have them send you the FPR's United States Postal Service so it goes to Canada Mail and there are no taxes applied ever. The US Postal Service and Canada Mail have an agreement not to tax unlike if you send something UPS or Fedex.
will probably cost more in the end and they take an awful long time to come in. there is tax with USPS to Canada Post, there is no agreement for that. the difference between USPS/Canada post and UPS or Fedex is that these 2 will charge you brokerage fees (something like a minimum of $20 or so) on top of the taxes.
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I am interested. My Jeep is immobile right now anyway so I can have the FPR and mount heading your way this weekend; if it helps to have it ahead of time.
Bill
yeah, that would work - i'll PM you my shipping address later today (gotta run right now, i'll be back online later)
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will probably cost more in the end and they take an awful long time to come in. there is tax with USPS to Canada Post, there is no agreement for that. the difference between USPS/Canada post and UPS or Fedex is that these 2 will charge you brokerage fees (something like a minimum of $20 or so) on top of the taxes.
Ah, ok brokerage fees is what I meant. I sent a pair of boots up there and accidentally sent them UPS and there was a $60 fee which I had to eat 2/3'd of.
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Ah, ok brokerage fees is what I meant. I sent a pair of boots up there and accidentally sent them UPS and there was a $60 fee which I had to eat 2/3'd of.
yeah, it's retarded - i got fried too and since i ship 15 min away from home in the US - the $3 fee is actually less than the extra cost on shipping to Canada
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I received a smelly package in the mail today. Not sure when I'll be able to install it but I'll get some pics up shortly.
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I received a smelly package in the mail today. Not sure when I'll be able to install it but I'll get some pics up shortly.
we should mention that the smell was due to gas :lol:
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Managed to get some time to take pics of the FPS that I was sent. I'm hoping to get some time to install it sometime this month.
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_NUT3v0pNW04/S5WMaNimIAI/AAAAAAAAMug/pHpl59ud6lk/s720/DSC_0077.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_NUT3v0pNW04/S5WMaazxbvI/AAAAAAAAMuk/kc3yhMxCmuc/s720/DSC_0079.jpg)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_NUT3v0pNW04/S5WMaTNWF0I/AAAAAAAAMuo/4PVkPemNuNk/s720/DSC_0078.jpg)
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I'd be in the market for one of these adjustable FPRs myself. Between the 19lb injectors, 62mm TB, and intake changes I made a while back, an adjustable FPR probably wouldn't hurt.
But let's say I get the adjustable FPR in there and all set up and the A/F ratio dialed in using a gauge of some kind.
I am still considering wiring in an adjustable MAP also (I know you can build the thing and the retail version is way over-priced). Am still not clear as to whether adjustable FPR makes the adjustable MAP redundant as a means to tune the AF ratio.
If you put an adjustable MAP setup in there with the adustable FPR already in place, are you going to end of throwing the AF ratio out of whack again? :puzzled:
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I'd be in the market for one of these adjustable FPRs myself. Between the 19lb injectors, 62mm TB, and intake changes I made a while back, an adjustable FPR probably wouldn't hurt.
But let's say I get the adjustable FPR in there and all set up and the A/F ratio dialed in using a gauge of some kind.
I am still considering wiring in an adjustable MAP also (I know you can build the thing and the retail version is way over-priced). Am still not clear as to whether adjustable FPR makes the adjustable MAP redundant as a means to tune the AF ratio.
If you put an adjustable MAP setup in there with the adustable FPR already in place, are you going to end of throwing the AF ratio out of whack again? :puzzled:
if you're conservative with the increase then you should gain some power with the adjustable MAP - between the 2 you're better off with the adj FPR as it will keep your stock characteristics and only affect your open loop afr. if you use both then you can benefit if you use a slight increase imo and not go crazy with it, a 0.1v (and not more than 0.2v max) would probably be enough, i can't advise anything more than that but i did read of some guys going some ridiculous voltages like 5.75 which i would not recommend.
now in all honesty you only want the power to kick in when you're wot, in that case the adj FPR will do the job w/o the adj MAP - what that means is that until you floor it or are in heavy load your PCM will operate as before in closed loop and give you the best mpg (always target 14.7 AFR) - the adjustable map will shift the reading and will tell the PCM to give more fuel earlier (go in open loop before you're at wot), which can be good or bad depending on what the goal is.
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I might do like you say here sharpxman and wire in an adjustable MAP and a conservatively tuned adjustable FPR. Just SOP impression, but the engine below wide open throttle strikes me as being a little starved for fuel. I can get a gauge and see if I'm correct before messing with anything.
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BTW sharpxmen, are you making any more of these adjustable FPRs for sale? If so, I'll buy one off you.
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I might do like you say here sharpxman and wire in an adjustable MAP and a conservatively tuned adjustable FPR. Just SOP impression, but the engine below wide open throttle strikes me as being a little starved for fuel. I can get a gauge and see if I'm correct before messing with anything.
below wot (depending how far below we're talking about) you are in closed loop, so the mixture depends on the O2 sensor output and regardless of the injectors or fuel pressure the PCM will adjust the mixture based on the O2 feedback and always target 14.7 AFR
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BTW sharpxmen, are you making any more of these adjustable FPRs for sale? If so, I'll buy one off you.
affirmative
EDIT: it's $100 shipped if you want to keep your old FPR or $83 if you ship yours back (you get $17 back, of course if it's in good functioning order). could be up to $3 cheaper depending on the shipping cost so $97 or $80 on the low side for the 2 options - shipping is between $2 and $5 or so. I'm making one for melbill this week so if you want one let me know as it saves me a trip if i make 2 at the same time.
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affirmative
EDIT: it's $100 shipped if you want to keep your old FPR or $83 if you ship yours back (you get $17 back, of course if it's in good functioning order). could be up to $3 cheaper depending on the shipping cost so $97 or $80 on the low side for the 2 options - shipping is between $2 and $5 or so. I'm making one for melbill this week so if you want one let me know as it saves me a trip if i make 2 at the same time.
Don't forget the bracket since you'll have to reuse them and it doesn't fit over the housing anymore.
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Don't forget the bracket since you'll have to reuse them and it doesn't fit over the housing anymore.
correct, thanks for the reminder
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the adjustable map will shift the reading and will tell the PCM to give more fuel earlier (go in open loop before you're at wot), which can be good or bad depending on what the goal is.
So, the adjustable MAP puts you in an open loop before WOT. And the adjustable FPR lets you set it to insure fuel pressure is adequate for the open loop.
The adjustable MAP also advances timing, right?
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So, the adjustable MAP puts you in an open loop before WOT. And the adjustable FPR lets you set it to insure fuel pressure is adequate for the open loop.
The adjustable MAP also advances timing, right?
advance is mostly rpm related with some sensors affecting slightly the curve (IAT, ECT, MAP) - to tell you the truth i don't know what the outcome would be with the adj MAP.
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finished melbill's AFPR - this time i made the vac port thru the adjustment screw.
Here you go Jeffy, pics of the internals
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/AFPR/melbill_FPR_1.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/AFPR/melbill_FPR_2.jpg)
put together
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/AFPR/melbill_FPR_3.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/AFPR/melbill_FPR_4.jpg)
now i need to seal it and preset the pressure
unfortunately his old one was leaking (the membrane probably having a tear) - we decided to use another one since this probably would not have worked
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/AFPR/melbill_leaky_old_FPR.jpg)
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Sharp,
Could you find out how much one without the core would be shipped to Costa Rica? I think this is small enough so as to not be noticed by customs and actually go through without having to pay taxes...
Felipe
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Ah, very nice. I see the bolt preloads the spring which puts pressure on the diaphragm. That bolt looks interesting. Looks like you can bore out the center and use that instead of having to do a separate piece. Would look nicer that way.
BTW: I drove around with my stock FPS and 17.3lbs injectors and floored it once it was warmed up. No signs of the engine being lean that I can notice. In 4th, if I get it to 3000 rpm, I can accelerate up a mild grade and it feels find up to 4000 RPM. Tried a steeper incline and was able to hold 40 in 4th at over 3000 RPM. I'm using these as baselines so when I swap the FPS I'll be able to see if there are any differences.
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Ah, very nice. I see the bolt preloads the spring which puts pressure on the diaphragm. That bolt looks interesting. Looks like you can bore out the center and use that instead of having to do a separate piece. Would look nicer that way.
finished melbill's AFPR - this time i made the vac port thru the adjustment screw.
i made that bolt, and yes it has a hole all the way thru so that is the vac port now - i didn't have a small enough hex bar when i made yours
BTW: I drove around with my stock FPS and 17.3lbs injectors and floored it once it was warmed up. No signs of the engine being lean that I can notice. In 4th, if I get it to 3000 rpm, I can accelerate up a mild grade and it feels find up to 4000 RPM. Tried a steeper incline and was able to hold 40 in 4th at over 3000 RPM. I'm using these as baselines so when I swap the FPS I'll be able to see if there are any differences.
that's good, probably better if you do it the same day so the seat'a'da'pants gives you a better feel :)
Sharp,
Could you find out how much one without the core would be shipped to Costa Rica? I think this is small enough so as to not be noticed by customs and actually go through without having to pay taxes...
Felipe
will do, do you have a postal code and address (send a PM) so i can put that in the shipping estimate on the post office website.
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Sharp,
Could you find out how much one without the core would be shipped to Costa Rica? I think this is small enough so as to not be noticed by customs and actually go through without having to pay taxes...
Felipe
i didn't need the postal code, seems to be same rate regardless of location in CR
looks like would be $112 shipped to Costa Rica (so no core to return $75 + $20 core + $17 shipping) - not sure how much the insurance would be to cover $95 value although in that case might be that you would get taxed on it - i could put down $5 value but there's a risk if it gets lost
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Very cool, can't wait to use it. I'll definitely be posting results of set up and trials.
Bill
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Very cool, can't wait to use it. I'll definitely be posting results of set up and trials.
Bill
if you need it quickly let me know, otherwise i plan to ship it before the end of the week (as i understand your Jeep is on standby right now).
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PM sent...
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Whenever you get around to in. The Jeep is getting more work prior getting back on the road, so no rush. I am anxious to get it done, but fitting in work time makes it slow.
Thanks again,
Bill
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OK, I ran into some issues that I thought I should mention. There is no way to get the rubber fitting over the barbs on my FPS. The opening is probably 2-3x the dia. of the original. If you stretch it too much, over time the rubber will crack to relieve the stress. A smaller barb is highly recommended. Probably best to mimic the originals. It's pretty long. Look at the new bolt you made, it's probably twice as long.
I'd also consider sand blasting the bracket. I polished up the billet drum and it looks really nice but it's almost impossible to clean the bracket. The bottom half of the FPS isn't much of an issue since you can't see it.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_NUT3v0pNW04/S6FGjXJygII/AAAAAAAAMxw/L1kdktFuNQE/s720/DSC_0009.jpg)
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OK, I ran into some issues that I thought I should mention. There is no way to get the rubber fitting over the barbs on my FPS. The opening is probably 2-3x the dia. of the original. If you stretch it too much, over time the rubber will crack to relieve the stress. A smaller barb is highly recommended. Probably best to mimic the originals. It's pretty long. Look at the new bolt you made, it's probably twice as long.
I'd also consider sand blasting the bracket. I polished up the billet drum and it looks really nice but it's almost impossible to clean the bracket. The bottom half of the FPS isn't much of an issue since you can't see it.
use a larger tube that goes over both of them, that should do it.
the bolt has to be as long as the upper level of pressure, so to make it flush would limit the adjustment, can be shorter but that depends on what is the upper limit of the range you want.
most of the aftermarket ones you see stick out about 1/4 an inch to 1 inch and that depends on how much pressure they are set to (so if you run 15 psi would stick out more than compared to 50 psi).
the nipple on the new bolt is small enough to accommodate the stock rubber elbow.
yours was the prototype so i made it with what i had around, i didn't have a smaller fitting than that. It's 1/8'' NPT so eventually you might find a smaller one to replace it. If you run it and you're happy with it i'll send you a replacement for the aluminum portion with the new style adjustment screw (it is also shorter than yours since it doesn't need the extra space for the 90 deg vac fitting).
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Well, I looked at it some more and I think if I disconnect the tube from both ends, I can replace it with the correct size tube. On the intake side, there is a rubber boot that downsizes to the plastic tube size. The fitting on the intake is about the same size as the brass fitting. I'll have to go to the auto parts store and see what they have for vacuum lines.
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Well, I looked at it some more and I think if I disconnect the tube from both ends, I can replace it with the correct size tube. On the intake side, there is a rubber boot that downsizes to the plastic tube size. The fitting on the intake is about the same size as the brass fitting. I'll have to go to the auto parts store and see what they have for vacuum lines.
funny enough, after i shipped it i thought about why i didn't send you one of those (believe it or not) as i have couple of spares
the other alternative is to get a fitting plug and make a small hole in it where you can stick the plastic tube in.
EDIT: i'm talking about the rubber plugs that go over manifold fittings - i think some TJs have them, some are black and some are red.
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I ended up just buying some tubing to replace it all. It will look a little ghetto but that's OK since it's a prototype. I'll see about getting it installed tomorrow now that I have all the parts needed.
I was thinking about getting some brass tubing and flaring the end then braising the tube into the brass fitting but that's too much work.
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I ended up just buying some tubing to replace it all. It will look a little ghetto but that's OK since it's a prototype. I'll see about getting it installed tomorrow now that I have all the parts needed.
I was thinking about getting some brass tubing and flaring the end then braising the tube into the brass fitting but that's too much work.
only thing to make sure is that the tube don't collapse in vacuum
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Good point, I have enough tubing so I can try it both ways. How much psi does the engine create? I've got a vacuum gun that I can use to test the line.
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Good point, I have enough tubing so I can try it both ways. How much psi does the engine create? I've got a vacuum gun that I can use to test the line.
-20inHg which is about -9psi
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Went a different route all together. I have an extra set of lines since I had to replace one of the rubber bends at the CCV. So I pulled off the other side that goes to the intake. Turned out great.
Some questions. The stock FPS has a plastic ring at the base of both steps. On the one you send it seems to have the same ring buy with an o-ring on top the smaller one was replaced with an o-ring as well. I take it the o-ring is for added protection?
Initial run around the block. Seems to have more power. I had my intake tuned so it was making more hp but at the cost of less torque down low. It seems that the deficit has been filled some. Of course this is in closed-loop as the engine wasn't warmed up.
The other thing about running injectors at lower PSI then recommended is that the spray might not atomize as well. I haven't tested this but I'm still sure it atomizes better then the stock single jet. I should have some more results once the weekend arrives and I'm able to take it on the highway and some deserted backroads.
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Some questions. The stock FPS has a plastic ring at the base of both steps. On the one you send it seems to have the same ring buy with an o-ring on top the smaller one was replaced with an o-ring as well. I take it the o-ring is for added protection?
huh :yikes:
nope, should be same as stock - when i took it off the rail it came out with that o-ring on it and didn't bother to take it off :lol:
but if it works with 2 on top of each-other you can leave it - can't hurt considering the added pressure (and that's a great idea in case there's a leak, add a second o-ring :)
glad to hear you got the vac line sorted out.
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huh :yikes:
nope, should be same as stock - when i took it off the rail it came out with that o-ring on it and didn't bother to take it off :lol:
but if it works with 2 on top of each-other you can leave it - can't hurt considering the added pressure (and that's a great idea in case there's a leak, add a second o-ring :)
glad to hear you got the vac line sorted out.
You can see the tan ring around the larger base. On my FPR it's black and no o-ring.
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You know, I didn't check to see if there was a O-ring inside the rail. I'd hate to have to take it apart again although it is running. Damn, didn't think about that.
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You know, I didn't check to see if there was a O-ring inside the rail. I'd hate to have to take it apart again although it is running. Damn, didn't think about that.
there are 2 o-rings on top of the little plastic rings - usually the small one remains in the rail (and it is far easier to install that way) and the large one comes off with the FPR. if it works just leave it, should be fine
but for sure you have another o-ring in there, would leak big-time otherwise.
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Sure enough, there was another O-ring on the fuel rail. Although interesting enough, I tried reusing my old one and it seems that my FPR might be a smidgen wider or the O-ring compressed more. This caused a fuel leak of course. So I used the one that make with the new FPS and it seems to work. Is the FPR supposed to be able to rotate? The bracket doesn't compress down to where the FPR doesn't move. Although 9PSI isn't much so I doubt it's an issue. I just didn't bother checking to see if mine would rotate as well. With 2 O-rings it was on nice and tight.
Here's what it looks like. I chopped off 2 barbs on the fitting since it was too long and I didn't want to stretch the plastic tubing too much.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_NUT3v0pNW04/S6KweDFc1gI/AAAAAAAAMyw/9LVOHd6zhfg/s720/DSC_0019.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_NUT3v0pNW04/S6Kwc2oeIDI/AAAAAAAAMyk/X7IJv82mvgE/s720/DSC_0022.jpg)
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Sure enough, there was another O-ring on the fuel rail. Although interesting enough, I tried reusing my old one and it seems that my FPR might be a smidgen wider or the O-ring compressed more. This caused a fuel leak of course. So I used the one that make with the new FPS and it seems to work. Is the FPR supposed to be able to rotate? The bracket doesn't compress down to where the FPR doesn't move. Although 9PSI isn't much so I doubt it's an issue. I just didn't bother checking to see if mine would rotate as well. With 2 O-rings it was on nice and tight.
Here's what it looks like. I chopped off 2 barbs on the fitting since it was too long and I didn't want to stretch the plastic tubing too much.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_NUT3v0pNW04/S6KweDFc1gI/AAAAAAAAMyw/9LVOHd6zhfg/s720/DSC_0019.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_NUT3v0pNW04/S6Kwc2oeIDI/AAAAAAAAMyk/X7IJv82mvgE/s720/DSC_0022.jpg)
it shouldn't move, but it might be that the bracket bent a little when you had the second o-ring in - so if it was nice and tight with 2 of them throw the second one in as well - if it doesn't leak it can't hurt.
the pressure there is 43psi not 9psi (that was the answer to how much vacuum the engine makes).
that turned out nice and clean with the barb cut and the matching rubber end :thumb:
EDIT: it looks like there's a little space between the rim of the FPR and the rail, so most likely the bracket bent a little that's why you can move it (it should move but not freely, keep in mind that this is larger and has the fitting on as well which makes it easier to turn compared to the tiny stock one)
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there are 2 o-rings on top of the little plastic rings - usually the small one remains in the rail (and it is far easier to install that way) and the large one comes off with the FPR. if it works just leave it, should be fine
but for sure you have another o-ring in there, would leak big-time otherwise.
Wait, there are supposed to be two rubber O-rings on top of the plastic ring? My OEM setup seemed to only have one plastic O-ring and that is from the factory. This is what's confusing me. I have one O-ring like how the Factory setup was. The O-ring is retained inside the rail and only the plastic ring is on the FPR.
The manual only shows two O-ring, one small and one large. I take it the smaller one is still inside. It doesn't really say anything about the plastic spacers. So currently I have two O-rings. The gap with the images is with 3 O-rings. Two of the larger ones which is why it's not seated all the way. I don't think the bracket bent any when I seated all 3. The FPR is able to rotate if I try to force it. It's not as loose as it was with the original O-rings only.
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Wait, there are supposed to be two rubber O-rings on top of the plastic ring? My OEM setup seemed to only have one plastic O-ring and that is from the factory. This is what's confusing me. I have one O-ring like how the Factory setup was. The O-ring is retained inside the rail and only the plastic ring is on the FPR.
there is only one o-ring on top of each of the 2 plastic rings/spacers
usually the little o-ring remains in the rail when you remove the FPR, the larger one sometimes comes out on the FPR, sometimes stays in the rail - seen both.
what i meant when i said there's another o-ring in there was in response to your post as your FPR did not have one on it when you removed it just the plastic spacer ring (and if there was no o-ring in the rail it would leak).
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there is only one o-ring on top of each of the 2 plastic rings/spacers
usually the little o-ring remains in the rail when you remove the FPR, the larger one sometimes comes out on the FPR, sometimes stays in the rail - seen both.
what i meant when i said there's another o-ring in there was in response to your post as your FPR did not have one on it when you removed it just the plastic spacer ring (and if there was no o-ring in the rail it would leak).
Ok, then it should be good with 2 O-rings. I'll watch for leaks, I don't think it's leaking though. When I had the factory large O-ring it did indeed leak so I swapped back to the one that you sent and it seems to have stopped.
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The manual only shows two O-ring, one small and one large. I take it the smaller one is still inside. It doesn't really say anything about the plastic spacers. So currently I have two O-rings. The gap with the images is with 3 O-rings. Two of the larger ones which is why it's not seated all the way. I don't think the bracket bent any when I seated all 3. The FPR is able to rotate if I try to force it. It's not as loose as it was with the original O-rings only.
the manual is correct
it will move if you try to force it, same with the stock one but if it was installed for a long time things would stick to each-other not to mention being smaller diameter, so i think that's fine.
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So I was able to drive around town. No leaks so that's good, I don't like to be on fire. There is definitely a bump in torque and hp in the lower RPM's. The power-band is much smoother which is nice.
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So I was able to drive around town. No leaks so that's good, I don't like to be on fire. There is definitely a bump in torque and hp in the lower RPM's. The power-band is much smoother which is nice.
did you get a chance to redo the test you did with the stock one?
glad to hear you're not leaking :lol:
EDIT: if you get your hands on a pressure gauge try to bump it up in pressure and see how that feels too (45 or 46 should be ok still but i wouldn't go higher than that).
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did you get a chance to redo the test you did with the stock one?
glad to hear you're not leaking :lol:
EDIT: if you get your hands on a pressure gauge try to bump it up in pressure and see how that feels too (45 or 46 should be ok still but i wouldn't go higher than that).
Hopefully, I'll do one of the roads tomorrow and the other on the weekend.
Is there a gauge I can leave mounted to the schrader valve on the fuel rail?
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Hopefully, I'll do one of the roads tomorrow and the other on the weekend.
Is there a gauge I can leave mounted to the zerk on the fuel rail?
yes, you can get an -4AN female to 1/8'' NPT female adapter and one of the small pressure gauges (0-60 psi)
at a minimum something lilke this
4AN female to 1/8'' NPT adapter http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-916104ERL/ - $7
1/8'' female to 1/8 female adapter http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FRA-491001/ - $3
0-60 psi fuel pressure gauge http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-800160/ - $18
$28 in total
you might look for them locally as the shipping is something like $10
you might find a -4AN to 1/8'' npt female to female and that could cut the cost a bit and might also want to look for an elbow rather than the straight 1/8 to 1/8 female adapter: something similar to this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FRA-491601/, but this one is $11 and seems overpriced to me (you can probably find it for $3 or so at a hardware store).
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Hmm, there doesn't seem to be any -4 AN Female to 1/8 in. NPT Female fittings.
Why go with a 90 elbow? Wouldn't it be OK to have the gauge stand upright so I won't have to climb into the engine compartment to read it?
***edit: OK, I see those gauges have the 1/8" Male on the backside of the gauge. :uhoh:
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This is pretty ugly: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/05/11/hmx-checking-fuel-pressure/
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Why go with a 90 elbow? Wouldn't it be OK to have the gauge stand upright so I won't have to climb into the engine compartment to read it?
so you can have it facing towards the FPR - you can watch it while adjusting the screw, otherwise you'd have to move towards the passenger side to see the pressure
This is pretty ugly: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/05/11/hmx-checking-fuel-pressure/
yeah, same idea but i think my selection was a bit more classy :)
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so you can have it facing towards the FPR - you can watch it while adjusting the screw, otherwise you'd have to move towards the passenger side to see the pressure
yeah, same idea but i think my selection was a bit more classy :)
I'll have to see what I can come up with but I think the gauge would be a nice addition and inexpensive.
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Hopefully, I'll do one of the roads tomorrow and the other on the weekend.
Is there a gauge I can leave mounted to the schrader valve on the fuel rail?
I'm interested in the results on this
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I'm interested in the results on this
yes, you can get an -4AN female to 1/8'' NPT female adapter and one of the small pressure gauges (0-60 psi)
at a minimum something lilke this
4AN female to 1/8'' NPT adapter http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-916104ERL/ - $7
1/8'' female to 1/8 female adapter http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FRA-491001/ - $3
0-60 psi fuel pressure gauge http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-800160/ - $18
$28 in total
you might look for them locally as the shipping is something like $10
you might find a -4AN to 1/8'' npt female to female and that could cut the cost a bit and might also want to look for an elbow rather than the straight 1/8 to 1/8 female adapter: something similar to this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FRA-491601/, but this one is $11 and seems overpriced to me (you can probably find it for $3 or so at a hardware store).
you can buy a brass elbow 1/8'' female to 1/8'' female at a h/w store for $2 (i saw one yesterday) - that would make it a grand total of $27
there's really no results, it just works and will show the fuel pressure in the rail. I have a permanent install with a teflon braided hose and the gauge in the dash
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I'm interested in the results on this
I was talking about the adjustable FPR in general. Guess its sop
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For extra safety...
If you want to run a in dash gauge, there is an Isolator gadget your supposed to use
if the hose enters the passenger area, It prevents fuel from flowing if the gauge fails
or the line gets pulled off the gauge. Otherwise electric fuel gauges are available too.
Dave
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you can buy a brass elbow 1/8'' female to 1/8'' female at a h/w store for $2 (i saw one yesterday) - that would make it a grand total of $27
there's really no results, it just works and will show the fuel pressure in the rail. I have a permanent install with a teflon braided hose and the gauge in the dash
But then it looks like I built it at a hardware store. :lol: The gauge you show say's it's not meant for a permanent mount. The 0-100psi is though. I've thought about using a braided hose and running it to the fender then being able to move it outside the hood when testing but that seemed pointless since I can't really see that part of the hood anyway. Not sure about running a mechanical into the cab. Might as well go electrical. I don't really like the idea of fuel in my lap on on my feet. :drink:
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Ive usually just run the gauge out to the top of the hood and tied it to
the little hoop thing that supports the windshield when you fold it down... If its temporary....
I've often thought a idiot light that turns on at 30 PSI would be the ticket.... Just so you know if the pump is stalling.
Dave
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Ive usually just run the gauge out to the top of the hood and tied it to
the little hoop thing that supports the windshield when you fold it down... If its temporary....
I've often thought a idiot light that turns on at 30 PSI would be the ticket.... Just so you know if the pump is stalling.
Dave
I'd like to be able to monitor what the FPR is doing. I've been thinking a wide-band O2 might be in the plans too. Them maybe a boost gauge for later.
So anyway, I drove it on the highway. Seems to pull a lot better in the low and medium range. On the stratch of highway, it's a slight grade for several miles. Usually I'm in 4/5 doing 60-65mph but this time I'm in 5th and cruising at 65mph. The last part of this stretch has a sweeping bend which goes up a steeper grade and the wind shifts to directly at your face. For the hill, I'm usually in 4th at around 50-55mph floored. Now I'm 60-65mph floored.
So there is definitely a torque increase. Once floored, the difference isn't as noticeable. I'm thinking that it's still running lean at WOT but without a wide-band O2, it's hard to say. Could have been that, I didn't rev the engint high enough as it was only around 3000rpm and I probably should have pushed it to 40000rpm.
Overall though, I think the FPR made the biggest single difference with all of the engine stuff that I have BUT I don't think it would have helped nearly as much if I didn't have all of the other stuff.
Before I did the FPR, I tuned the intake so it was making more HP at the high-end at the cost of low-end torque. This FPR seems to have fixed that issue. So, maybe it needs even more air...
I'll definitely have to play around with the setup some more to tune to where I like it. This, like all of the other mods will be different for each and every Jeep as mine is tuned differently with the aftermarket parts. So YMMV is assured but if you put the time in to tinker with adjusting your intake and exhaust then you'll probably like this mod.
I might tune the intake so it gives me the lower end torque and see what that feels like with the FPR.
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Glad to hear you have had good results. Looking forward to see how others will do.
How does one tune the intake?
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Glad to hear you have had good results. Looking forward to see how others will do.
How does one tune the intake?
You can adjust the overall length and play around with CFM a little bit. Even removing the front turn down on the box will change how the engine runs. On mine, I notice the loss of low-end but I pick up HP on the high end. The opposite happens when I put it back on. I might see what happens if I route the box better so it has direct access to cold air and see what that does. But you have to keep in mind that if you go with a larger tube you lose pressure while gaining volume. The key is to maintain pressure while gaining volume. Also, you can tune the engine the same way with the exhaust. Less restriction will give you more HP at the high-end while losing low-end torque. You have to sort of try to keep this in balances or else you'll just end up countering what you did on one end.
Small adjustments can make big changes.
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SO I did a long trip. I reset the computer again, since all of the other driving was short. So I found that the Jeeps sweet spot is 60mph. I can drive in 5th and still accelerate up some slopes without too much trouble. Shift down to 4th when a steeper hill comes and rev it up. Although, I could easily do 65-70mph and be around 3000rpm but I've got a sail bolted to the top (roof rack) and I could tell the extra weight as well as wind resistance. Still it wasn't bad and actually. Quite pleasant actually since I was tailing a big rig so he was cutting a huge hole for me and I was able to cruise in 5th all the way back. I'm still curious to see what happens if I put the turn down for the air box back on.
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Purchase requests should be made here: http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,8262.msg66424.htm
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SO I did a long trip. I reset the computer again, since all of the other driving was short. So I found that the Jeeps sweet spot is 60mph. I can drive in 5th and still accelerate up some slopes without too much trouble. Shift down to 4th when a steeper hill comes and rev it up. Although, I could easily do 65-70mph and be around 3000rpm but I've got a sail bolted to the top (roof rack) and I could tell the extra weight as well as wind resistance. Still it wasn't bad and actually. Quite pleasant actually since I was tailing a big rig so he was cutting a huge hole for me and I was able to cruise in 5th all the way back. I'm still curious to see what happens if I put the turn down for the air box back on.
As the system gets more used to the new FPR do you think performance will improve?
Sounds like its a bit of an improvement. Would be curious to see how mileage is affected.
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As the system gets more used to the new FPR do you think performance will improve?
Sounds like its a bit of an improvement. Would be curious to see how mileage is affected.
will respond a bit better in closed loop as the trims get re-learned (so the mpg would get better once that is narrowed down).
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will respond a bit better in closed loop as the trims get re-learned (so the mpg would get better once that is narrowed down).
Yeah, it's running a bit rich right now.
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Yeah, it's running a bit rich right now.
one thing i remember i forgot to do on yours (rushed to get it done) is to seal the adjusting screw - it might reduce the vacuum so there's more fuel at idle. if you have some teflon tape you can twist it so it makes it like a string and roll it around the screw, loosen the locking nut first and wrap that around the screw between the nut and the billet cap, and then tighten it back - it will seal the screw and give it more vacuum in the FPR - I did all the other ones like this but I remember i meant to do yours and forgot. Make sure you don't move the position of the screw when you do all this.
If it's still too rich after 50 starts you could lower the pressure 1 psi, that should do it.
also, you have only a 4.0 t/b, i hope to get your 64mm shipped on Tue as well when i send out the other 2 FPRs - that will give it a bit more air - i got the t/b bored out but i need to get the butterfly finished - had some issues with the core, it cracked when i was boring it so i had to pick another one out.
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I got the adjustable FPR installed today. The rough idle, low rpm problems I'd been having for a long time basically disappeared. I had a chance to wind it out in 3rd from about 2000 something to 5000 on an on ramp and it seemed strong throughout the range.
So seems good so far Sharp :biggrin: Will keep you posted.
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one thing i remember i forgot to do on yours (rushed to get it done) is to seal the adjusting screw - it might reduce the vacuum so there's more fuel at idle. if you have some teflon tape you can twist it so it makes it like a string and roll it around the screw, loosen the locking nut first and wrap that around the screw between the nut and the billet cap, and then tighten it back - it will seal the screw and give it more vacuum in the FPR - I did all the other ones like this but I remember i meant to do yours and forgot. Make sure you don't move the position of the screw when you do all this.
If it's still too rich after 50 starts you could lower the pressure 1 psi, that should do it.
also, you have only a 4.0 t/b, i hope to get your 64mm shipped on Tue as well when i send out the other 2 FPRs - that will give it a bit more air - i got the t/b bored out but i need to get the butterfly finished - had some issues with the core, it cracked when i was boring it so i had to pick another one out.
I'll check it for leaks. Probably won't take it apart though. If you want to send me another, I won't complain, LOL. I don't have a gauge yet so I'm a bit weary on taking the screw off. I suspect it's not leaking and that the richness is from the trim not being adjusted since I just reset the PCM again.
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I'll check it for leaks. Probably won't take it apart though. If you want to send me another, I won't complain, LOL. I don't have a gauge yet so I'm a bit weary on taking the screw off. I suspect it's not leaking and that the richness is from the trim not being adjusted since I just reset the PCM again.
next time i make a few i'll make you another one with the vac port thru the adjusting screw. i didn't mean to take the screw off, i'll take some pics maybe tomorrow to explain it better. you could be right about the trims, it gets better in time.
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I had a chance to drive it on the highway today. Was generally not forced in to being on the gas pedal as before on flat highway and grades. Still down-shifted in a couple of usual locations but I could tell the torque was better throughout the rev range. :biggrin:
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I had a chance to drive it on the highway today. Was generally not forced in to being on the gas pedal as before on flat highway and grades. Still down-shifted in a couple of usual locations but I could tell the torque was better throughout the rev range. :biggrin:
cool :thumb:
you did reset the computer right? (just in case you forgot)
and thanks for the order :beers:
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I'll check it for leaks. Probably won't take it apart though. If you want to send me another, I won't complain, LOL. I don't have a gauge yet so I'm a bit weary on taking the screw off. I suspect it's not leaking and that the richness is from the trim not being adjusted since I just reset the PCM again.
this is what i meant about sealing the adjusting screw and nut
you twist some teflon tape to make it into a thread, loosen the locking nut but hold the adjusting screw in place, wrap the teflon thread around the adjusting screw between the nut and the billet cap, tighten the nut - that will crush the teflon thread in there and seal the screw - works well, did all the other ones this way and they all hold vacuum w/o leaks.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/AFPR/Sealing_Adjusting_Screw.jpg)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Misc/AFPR/Sealing_Adjusting_Screw2.jpg)
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cool :thumb:
you did reset the computer right? (just in case you forgot)
and thanks for the order :beers:
Oh yeah, I had the battery disconnected for the duration of the install. And you're welcome!
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Chris to reset the ECM you need to do a bit more than just disconnect the battery.
You have to ground the positive battery terminal for a couple of minutes to discharge the capacitors in the ECM
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Chris to reset the ECM you need to do a bit more than just disconnect the battery.
You have to ground the positive battery terminal for a couple of minutes to discharge the capacitors in the ECM
Or unplug it over night; that should also reset it... Or reset it with a code scanner.
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Chris to reset the ECM you need to do a bit more than just disconnect the battery.
You have to ground the positive battery terminal for a couple of minutes to discharge the capacitors in the ECM
Art, I did have it touching metal for the duration -- I'd be surprised if that didn't do the trick.
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I unscrewed the lock nut and added a couple wraps of Teflon tape. Although the lock nut is down against the housing and not sitting above, which I'm guessing isn't tightened all the way. I hope didn't move the bolt too much as I did it while still on the rail.
Oh yeah, One thing I noticed was that when I removed the turn down on the box I not only lost a bit of the low end but I had to be a bit more careful with the throttle as thick soles had it harder to feel the pedal and I sometimes lift off the throttle too quickly when starting on a hill and lug it. I also noticed the torque seems to have petered off around 3000 rpm. Or so it felt but then it would pick back up once around 3300. It didn't feel consistent though. Maybe I had a vacuum leak at the FPR?
With the turn down back in, the engine isn't as touchy but the low-end torque is a lot more forgiving. I'll have to see how it is on the highways though as usual, I'll probably lose some HP on the high end.
Oh, one other change which might account for the inconsistent feel. I put the roof rack back on and it's noticeable when I drive. I don't drive over 65MPH as it feels like I've got the sails up. I'll either take it off or leave and and start some new tests as the baseline is a bit different now.
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Just so I know I am processing things right. The adjuster bolt is not actually pressing on the diaphragm but compressing the spring as to increase pressure? Thanks
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Just so I know I am processing things right. The adjuster bolt is not actually pressing on the diaphragm but compressing the spring as to increase pressure? Thanks
You can see how it's put together in these pictures: http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,8066.60.html
The bolt goes through the housing then presses onto a plate which sits on top of the spring. The spring sits on top of the diaphragm.
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yes, you can get an -4AN female to 1/8'' NPT female adapter and one of the small pressure gauges (0-60 psi)
at a minimum something lilke this
4AN female to 1/8'' NPT adapter http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-916104ERL/ - $7
1/8'' female to 1/8 female adapter http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FRA-491001/ - $3
0-60 psi fuel pressure gauge http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-800160/ - $18
$28 in total
Which, if any, of these types of threads needs teflon tape to seal?
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Which, if any, of these types of threads needs teflon tape to seal?
only the NPT threads, the only one that does not need tape is the -4 AN that is on the schraeder valve adapter. don't forget to take out the valve inside the rail first (the schraeder valve) when you install the gauge
did you mount the FPR yet?
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I mounted the FPR but haven't had a chance to reset the 'puter and drive it.
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I'm naive to this, but any idea what would be the harm/benefits in just capping off the vacuum line going to the stock one with stock and or aftermarket fuel injectors?
- not sure why you would want to cap the vac port, won't make a difference at wide open throttle
cons to your suggestion: won't find an injector to match exactly the desired flow and if by some miracle you will find one the price would be the other impediment unless you'll find some second hand ones (just a matter of luck).
benefits of your suggestion: none really, even with aftermarket injectors you'll still need a way to adjust the flow.
might want to read this thread, the issue with Ford Design III injectors is explained quite a bit in previous posts.
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sharpxmen, are you still making the adjustable FPR's? Will be intrested in one shortly. Plan to install the Bosch 0-280-150-943 injectors soon and will need one to keep up. Thanks
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sharpxmen, are you still making the adjustable FPR's? Will be intrested in one shortly. Plan to install the Bosch 0-280-150-943 injectors soon and will need one to keep up. Thanks
i have enough to make couple more so whenever you decide let me know.
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i have enough to make couple more so whenever you decide let me know.
:thumbsup:
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Does the adj. FPR only change your WOT(vac removed) fuel pressure? So instead of 31psi Idle & 39psi vac removed it would be 31psi and say 43psi? or does it increase it 4psi across the board? (assuming a 4psi adjustment) 35/43?
Thanks
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its going to increase across the board
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cool. , makes sense.
with a 62mm tb, intake matched and ignition upgrade, oem exhaust.... probably start with ~2psi increase and go from there?
or is there really no general guidline?
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cool. , makes sense.
with a 62mm tb, intake matched and ignition upgrade, oem exhaust.... probably start with ~2psi increase and go from there?
or is there really no general guidline?
2 psi will barely make any difference, you can safely go with +4 psi. keep in mind that once the computer re-learns the trims you'll only see an AFR increase at wot or close to that (in open loop to be more specific), so it doesn't matter that you have 35psi at idle or with the throttle partially open having 39 instead of 35, the AFR will still be 14.7 (i'm drawing a blank, i hope i got the stoichiometric AFR correct at 14.7) due to O2 sensor feedback to the PCM (closed loop operation) - which is ultimately what you want unless you run forced induction.
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sharpxmen, I bought one of these from you before for my stroker. I am building another stroker for the wifes heep and I was wondering if you still have the parts to build another one?
Thanks, Chas
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sharpxmen, I bought one of these from you before for my stroker. I am building another stroker for the wifes heep and I was wondering if you still have the parts to build another one?
Thanks, Chas
sorry man, none at the moment and not sure if or when will have more.
How's your stroker running?
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Honestly I am still in the ground up process, so I have not even had it running yet, but someday soon I hope :)
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Are fuel pressure regulators a fairly standard size (given they look the same). Found this on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/380315270666?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Was wondering if it would do something similar to sharpxmen's regulator mod. Not trying to step on toes, but may be a viable alternative. Any thoughts?
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Are fuel pressure regulators a fairly standard size (given they look the same). Found this on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/380315270666?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Was wondering if it would do something similar to sharpxmen's regulator mod. Not trying to step on toes, but may be a viable alternative. Any thoughts?
Unfortunately they are not standardized across the board.
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Are fuel pressure regulators a fairly standard size (given they look the same). Found this on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/380315270666?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Was wondering if it would do something similar to sharpxmen's regulator mod. Not trying to step on toes, but may be a viable alternative. Any thoughts?
you're not stepping on any toes, i don't make them at the moment so if you find something that works feel free to post it. This particular one i don't think it will fit, there are some that can be used with a plug where the stock one goes but i have not seen a bolt on solution other than the hesco ones (which is basically the same as stock but with a screw at the end and a disc inside to press onto the spring, same idea with the ones i was making).
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Might be a slight revival :lol2:... but I'm going to try and check out one of these at a local parts store to see if it is the same size:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Golf-Jetta-Cabrio-2L-ABA-MK3-3Bar-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator-FPR-0280160507-/180853368148?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a1bb36554&vxp=mtr
figure if it is, I can pick one up on the cheap from ebay for easy 43.5psi.
*1993-1999 VW's jetta, golf, bettle
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Might be a slight revival :lol2:... but I'm going to try and check out one of these at a local parts store to see if it is the same size:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Golf-Jetta-Cabrio-2L-ABA-MK3-3Bar-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator-FPR-0280160507-/180853368148?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a1bb36554&vxp=mtr
figure if it is, I can pick one up on the cheap from ebay for easy 43.5psi.
*1993-1999 VW's jetta, golf, bettle
from the picture imo not going to work
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Care to elaborate? They're the same design, size is what matters...
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Will the retaining bracket clear the vacuum nipple on the side? If it works I'd like to know. I'd try one myself. I have the feeling sharpxmen has seen enough of these to know by looking at it though.
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Care to elaborate? They're the same design, size is what matters...
sorry for the late reply, i missed this post
they're not the same design, look at where the o-rings are located between the 2, both outer and inner o-rings are further down and located in a groove on the VW one, the Jeep/Chrysler does not have the grooves and the o-ring is pressed against a shoulder inside the fuel rail and against the teflon rings that are fitted on the FPR in the Jeep one below, if you take your FPR out and look inside the rail you'll understand what i mean and why is not working, it just can't fit in there even if the o-rings on the VW are the same dimension. There is no way it will fit, dimensions are also different (I'm talking about the part that goes inside the fuel rail, the rest doesn't matter).
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/VW_Jetta_2L_FPR.jpg)(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/FPR/plug_and_stock_FPR2.jpg)
Will the retaining bracket clear the vacuum nipple on the side? If it works I'd like to know. I'd try one myself. I have the feeling sharpxmen has seen enough of these to know by looking at it though.
sorry but it won't work even if you can fit the bracket on. Maybe modified on a lathe but it's a long shot and what's the point in that case, you can just make an adjustable one if you have access to that.
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damn.
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Hey sharp it's kevin fixed the fpr ,was the o-ring
thanks
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Hey sharp it's kevin fixed the fpr ,was the o-ring
thanks
:lol: told ya'
good to hear you got it fixed
did the rough idle go away?
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Has anyone found another option for this?
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you can get a hesco or do a Mallory performance FPR conversion (I have a writeup on this one somewhere on here). In general you can adapt any FPR that is in the pressure specs.
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I posted a video in the thread i just started.
I converted to a return style system, walboro 255 in tank and afpr under the hood. I can up the pressure to 100 psi now if needed.
https://www.youtube.com/v/wfnoyoGri-M
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I have found an adjustable fuel pressure regulator that is nearly a direct fit, at a fraction of the cost of the Hesco unit. It was designed for a Chrysler/VW turbo setup.
I purchased the unit from SPA Turbo on Ebay for $52.40. Part number VLRPF231. I had to trim the factory Jeep retaining ring to get it to fit over the vacuum nipple on the regulator, but the fit into the fuel manifold was perfect.
https://spaturbousa.com/products/spa-turbo-chrysler-adjustable-fuel-pressure-regulator-fpr-vlrpf231
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I have found an adjustable fuel pressure regulator that is nearly a direct fit, at a fraction of the cost of the Hesco unit. It was designed for a Chrysler/VW turbo setup.
I purchased the unit from SPA Turbo on Ebay for $52.40. Part number VLRPF231. I had to trim the factory Jeep retaining ring to get it to fit over the vacuum nipple on the regulator, but the fit into the fuel manifold was perfect.
https://spaturbousa.com/products/spa-turbo-chrysler-adjustable-fuel-pressure-regulator-fpr-vlrpf231
Nice!
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Update:
The new fuel pressure regulator was a success! I had been running the stock regulator with Ford 5.0 injectors for about a year now. Since installing the new regulator and adjusting the pressure up to the proper Ford pressure, she is running cleaner, especially on the highway. She holds 5th gear a bit better at 70mph (I'm running 35's with Rock Monster beadlocks, they're heavy and 70mph is not easy).