Author Topic: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...  (Read 2229 times)

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TN00TJ

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Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« on: August 10, 2010, 11:15:38 AM »
Been watching 97 TJ - I dont wave's posts and traded an em or two with him.

He tells me that he's convinced (and I believe him) that the egt (exhaust gas temp) for that engine is way too high for the headers (mopar & banks)
to tolerate.

He also mentioned that mopar engineers claim that's 'normal', which does not surprise me.

As I think about it, I've learned from my experiences with Corvette (which have been MUCH better than with Jeep) that GM and the other builders had to meet and maintain a CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) number mandated by Washington and one of the ways they accomplish that is to run their engines lean.

I'm convinced that the fuel schedule on these 2.5L motors is TOO lean.

Here's where I kind of run out of altitude and ideas. Corvette got it right. Not saying that to knock Jeep - just illustrating that I have no experience with having to re-sked my Vettes because it's not an issue with them. (Not planning on dumping the Jeep 'cause it's just TOO FUN to have around.)

Obviously, to me at least, is that the Jeep 4-banger needs to be richened up just a bit to preclude cracking exhaust manifolds.

We use fuel for cooling in the piston-popper airplanes and those guys who excessively lean their motors while chasing a false fuel economy frequently burn up cylinders and put holes in pistons. And yes, they foik up manifolds in excessive cases. (The pilot has a mixture control for each engine right in the throttle quadrant.)

I'd love to hear your thoughts and experiences with scheduling/leaning/richening.

Incidentally, I bought this header but have not started reassembly on the motor. (too late for a refund)

Now this is probably better for a subsequent post but it's all related:

I'm using oem Y2K injectors which deliver 21 lbs, I THINK. Do you think they'll deliver enough fuel in the motor for which I've now purchased
Hesco's perf cam, valve springs, banks' header, hi-flow ss cat, magnaflow heavy breather ss muffler and pipe, Chris' 62mm TB, and spacer.

(All this stuff was purchased a year ago so refunds/exchanges ain't in the cards.)

Thanks for putting up with a very long post but I'm sure there are other guys out there who would like to go down the same road if they
could be sure of succeeding the first time out.


Offline FourbangerYJ

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2010, 12:24:07 PM »
The TJ 2.5L used a 23# injector VS the 17# for the YJ. http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,3479.0.html

Interesting theory.
Scott~

Using tools you have not used in a while is like shaking hands with old friends. :nod:

TN00TJ

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2010, 12:34:34 PM »
Dave Taylor mentioned that the upstream O2 sender could go 'fuzzy' and I wouldn't reject that idea, at least as being contributory.

Couldn't remember the exact delivery on the stock injectors but I bought 'em new from Jeep for the project.

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 09:07:48 PM »
doesn't matter the injector size, it's based on the PCM fuel table in open loop and the AFR is based on how long the injector is kept open - that is specific to the PCM on the model of vehicle and the injector is matched, in the case of a TJ will be less time to achieve the same ratio

in closed loop it uses the O2 sensor feedback to target 14.7AFR same as with other engines - difference is when the PCM goes in open loop, getting there sooner will make the afr richer pass that point

you can trick the PCM to be richer than 14.7 in closed loop by shifting the O2 sensor output, won't make a difference in open loop, to make it richer in that case you need either larger injectors or higher fuel pressure (or reprogram your PCM to keep the injectors open longer)
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

97 TJ - I dont wave

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2010, 09:33:43 PM »
Sharpxmen is right once again.....

TN00TJ

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 09:42:24 PM »
doesn't matter the injector size, it's based on the PCM fuel table in open loop and the AFR is based on how long the injector is kept open - that is specific to the PCM on the model of vehicle and the injector is matched, in the case of a TJ will be less time to achieve the same ratio

in closed loop it uses the O2 sensor feedback to target 14.7AFR same as with other engines - difference is when the PCM goes in open loop, getting there sooner will make the afr richer pass that point

you can trick the PCM to be richer than 14.7 in closed loop by shifting the O2 sensor output, won't make a difference in open loop, to make it richer in that case you need either larger injectors or higher fuel pressure (or reprogram your PCM to keep the injectors open longer)





It's probably a little too late in the evening to attempt a reply but here goes:

I think what we're looking for is more volume through the injectors as opposed to higher pressure in order to bring the egt down over the broadest rpm range. I'd be inclined to attempt that via reprogramming though I hasten to admit I have ZERO experience with it. BUT, in my simple view and Bernoulli's, lower pressure follows higher flow and I think more fuel flow is the answer to longer engine and header life.

I'm positive DC achieved their CAFE numbers via higher egt (translate leaner fuel flow throughout the rpm range.)
In the doing, I feel they sacrificed engine reliability and longevity.

Question now is, what's the smartest/easiest way to go about reprogrammimg the PCM - have a tuner do it?

(Does anybody know why this 'reply' box jumps around like crazy while you're trying to type?)

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2010, 10:32:28 PM »

It's probably a little too late in the evening to attempt a reply but here goes:

I think what we're looking for is more volume through the injectors as opposed to higher pressure in order to bring the egt down over the broadest rpm range. I'd be inclined to attempt that via reprogramming though I hasten to admit I have ZERO experience with it. BUT, in my simple view and Bernoulli's, lower pressure follows higher flow and I think more fuel flow is the answer to longer engine and header life.

I'm positive DC achieved their CAFE numbers via higher egt (translate leaner fuel flow throughout the rpm range.)
In the doing, I feel they sacrificed engine reliability and longevity.

Question now is, what's the smartest/easiest way to go about reprogrammimg the PCM - have a tuner do it?

(Does anybody know why this 'reply' box jumps around like crazy while you're trying to type?)


AFR is given by the air to fuel ratio per 1 full cycle of a cylinder - that is how much fuel will flow thru the injector while it is open during the intake cycle. The flow is determined by 3 factors: fuel pressure, injector size (nozzle or nozzles) and duty cycle of the injector (higher duty cycle means the injector is opened more).

the fuel pressure is controlled by the fuel pressure regulator and is limited to the pump capacity, so is fuel flow in the rail - higher pressure means less flow given by the pump, has nothing to do with the injector flow at a given pressure

the injector fuel flow is given by the injector size (the hole or holes thru which the fuel escapes while the injector is opened) and related to the fuel pressure - it is directly proportional with the square root of the pressure in the rail (and in the injector body) - what that means is that if for example you want to double the flow given by your injector at a pressure P1 you will need a pressure P2=4*P1 (4 times the pressure to achieve 2 times the flow) - you would need to have twice the flow of fuel if for example you would install a turbo and run 14.7 psi of boost (that is in theory to get to the same AFR as before, in practice you want to run richer and also this is only valid for open loop)

the duty cycle is controlled by the PCM
- in closed loop (when the PCM uses the O2 feedback to adjust the AFR) the PCM adjusts the duty cycle to always target 14.7 AFR, no matter what you do - there is a limit at which the fuel trims will fail to adjust, but that does not mean you'll be able to run richer, will just throw the PCM off and you'll end up with a CEL and the engine running like hell as it won't be able to "learn" the fuel curve.
- in open loop the PCM will operate on a preset fuel table w/o the O2 feedback, that is where you can make a difference by increasing the flow with larger injectors and/or higher fuel pressure - most of the tuners will use injectors to roughly get to the desired flow and an adjustable FPR to fine tune the flow or reprogram the PCM to adjust the duty cycle with the new injectors.

to modify the AFR on an engine using a narrowband O2 the only way is to shift the voltage output so the PCM targets the fake O2 information (thinking is correcting around the 14.7 stoichiometric value when in fact is correcting for a different AFR).

you can also trick the PCM into "thinking" it gets more air than it actually does by shifting the MAP sensor output, this will again only work in open loop but you might achieve open loop sooner by giving the higher voltage output to the PCM at a lower Manifold Absolute Pressure.

You can force the PCM in open loop sooner by reprogramming it and also reprogram the fuel table to achieve a higher AFR in open loop - this is what most of the aftermarket performance chips and programmers do.
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

Offline chrisfranklin

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 11:22:58 PM »
Does this theory apply to all 2.5 multiport FIs (lean for mileage, high heat) ?  Or is it something manufacturers started doing with TJ 2.5s?  I'll probably pick up some Borla or Banks headers at some point, so I was just checking. 
'94 YJ S 5spd, Borla Exhaust, CarSound Cat., PS Ceramic-coated Headers, Airraid intake, 62mm TB, Intake Manifold bored/ceramic-coated, 19lb injectors, Sharp's Adj. FPR, MeanGreen Starter, D30 Aussie locker, 31" Destination MTs, Warn XD9000, Cibie headlights, armor

TN00TJ

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2010, 07:57:43 AM »
Does this theory apply to all 2.5 multiport FIs (lean for mileage, high heat) ?  Or is it something manufacturers started doing with TJ 2.5s?  I'll probably pick up some Borla or Banks headers at some point, so I was just checking. 

My theory applies to all engine/fuel delivery systems on U.S.-built cars and light trucks since the late 80's.

It's my opinion that some have carried it off more successfully than Chrysler has with the 97-06 engines (both 4- and 6-cylinder models).

I'd invite you to read "Corvette From The Inside" by Dave McClellan, former Corvette Chief Engineer when the Lotus/Mercury Marine ZR-1 first came to market, for a comprehensive discourse on what the 1990 CAFE numbers were going to mean for the builders.

They have only gotten more demanding over time, as you might imagine, and I think we Jeep owners are paying for it. (Can't comment on the new V-6 in the JK or the little 2.4L in the 03-05 TJs as I have no experience with those motors.)

Certainly appreciate that comments that are coming out of of this - good stuff, Guys.

TN00TJ

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2010, 08:12:08 AM »
Sharpxmen, thanks for the lesson above.

I learn something new each time I read and re-read your posts.

I want to study that latest one with my Corvette fuel injection book in hand and then I'll probably have a question or two that I'll PM you with.

In another vein, I just talked with Jet-Hot Coatings and sent them "97 TJ -I don't wave's" pictures of his cracked headers.

I know Banks won't honor their warranty on a coated header but Jeez, how long can this go on without some relief?

I'll share what I learn from Jet-Hot.

Thanks again, for your thoughts and your patience with me.

Bruce

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2010, 08:21:25 AM »
no problem - looking at that cracked header i think it would be beneficial if a piece of sheetmetal be welded on top of that 4 in 1 collector just to cover up the crack (just straight and not bent, keeping the original collector underneath so if it cracks would still be contained and not leak exhaust)

i'm not familiar with the Corvettes, but just a note that if an engine or more specifically an EFI system is fitted with a wideband O2 sensor then  the ECU can target other AFR ratios than 14.7 - a wideband is good from 10 to 20 AFR and the ECU can accurately determine that based on the O2 feedback (all in closed loop of course). Narrowband is good from 14 to about 15 AFR which is all lean, anything above 15 or below 14 is just that (the information that is above or below) and no accurate input is given regardless if it's 11 or 13.9 AFR for example (same voltage output). Some ECUs with a wideband O2 have or can be set in a learn mode even for open loop and will slowly trim the fuel delivery table to target a specific AFR in open loop based on O2 information (for example if you want to target 12 AFR and you're at 13 the ECU can slowly adjust the injector opening until it gets very close to that, the AFR will never be spot on the same at multiple reads over a session so usually what you see if you measure it is an average over a period of time)

EDIT:

You can force the PCM in open loop sooner by reprogramming it and also reprogram the fuel table to achieve a higher AFR in open loop - this is what most of the aftermarket performance chips and programmers do.

to correct myself on this statement, i meant to say "achieve a lower AFR" not higher (was thinking of a higher duty cycle on the injectors)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 08:30:05 AM by sharpxmen »
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

97 TJ - I dont wave

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2010, 10:09:59 AM »
AFR is given by the air to fuel ratio per 1 full cycle of a cylinder - that is how much fuel will flow thru the injector while it is open during the intake cycle. The flow is determined by 3 factors: fuel pressure, injector size (nozzle or nozzles) and duty cycle of the injector (higher duty cycle means the injector is opened more).

the fuel pressure is controlled by the fuel pressure regulator and is limited to the pump capacity, so is fuel flow in the rail - higher pressure means less flow given by the pump, has nothing to do with the injector flow at a given pressure

the injector fuel flow is given by the injector size (the hole or holes thru which the fuel escapes while the injector is opened) and related to the fuel pressure - it is directly proportional with the square root of the pressure in the rail (and in the injector body) - what that means is that if for example you want to double the flow given by your injector at a pressure P1 you will need a pressure P2=4*P1 (4 times the pressure to achieve 2 times the flow) - you would need to have twice the flow of fuel if for example you would install a turbo and run 14.7 psi of boost (that is in theory to get to the same AFR as before, in practice you want to run richer and also this is only valid for open loop)

the duty cycle is controlled by the PCM
- in closed loop (when the PCM uses the O2 feedback to adjust the AFR) the PCM adjusts the duty cycle to always target 14.7 AFR, no matter what you do - there is a limit at which the fuel trims will fail to adjust, but that does not mean you'll be able to run richer, will just throw the PCM off and you'll end up with a CEL and the engine running like hell as it won't be able to "learn" the fuel curve.
- in open loop the PCM will operate on a preset fuel table w/o the O2 feedback, that is where you can make a difference by increasing the flow with larger injectors and/or higher fuel pressure - most of the tuners will use injectors to roughly get to the desired flow and an adjustable FPR to fine tune the flow or reprogram the PCM to adjust the duty cycle with the new injectors.

to modify the AFR on an engine using a narrowband O2 the only way is to shift the voltage output so the PCM targets the fake O2 information (thinking is correcting around the 14.7 stoichiometric value when in fact is correcting for a different AFR).

you can also trick the PCM into "thinking" it gets more air than it actually does by shifting the MAP sensor output, this will again only work in open loop but you might achieve open loop sooner by giving the higher voltage output to the PCM at a lower Manifold Absolute Pressure.

You can force the PCM in open loop sooner by reprogramming it and also reprogram the fuel table to achieve a higher AFR in open loop - this is what most of the aftermarket performance chips and programmers do.


Again, SharpXMen right on target.
Now, for modifying the PCM there is no one here in the Seattle market that has the chrysler software. Of course the dealer can't/won't do it due to 'emissions' laws. The only chip/programmer available (when I was in the market for one 1.5yrs ago) is the Jet chips. I used the stage 2 chip and still have the cracking issues. As a side note, the chip gave me a little horse power gain (maybe 2-4 ponnies), but did change the exhaust tune slightly.

The Problem:
http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=3678.0

The Fix:
http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,7911.msg72991.html#msg72991

Clem

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2010, 12:49:42 PM »
Interesting. The operating temperature of my 95 four cylinder is 195*. The operating temp of the 4.0 in my 99 grand is 210*. The assumption is that the CAFE standards tightened up around then...

Offline sharpxmen

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2010, 12:59:23 PM »
Interesting. The operating temperature of my 95 four cylinder is 195*. The operating temp of the 4.0 in my 99 grand is 210*. The assumption is that the CAFE standards tightened up around then...

the talk was regarding EGT - not that much related to the operating temp of the engine (i don't think it would make much of a difference where the thermostat opens to alter the EGT).
'95 YJ, NSG370 6spd / Hurst shifter, Dana 300 + 4:1 Doubler / tri-stick, Custom skid, Super D35 / Auburn LSD / 4.88, 35x12.5x15 BFG KM2, 64mm t/b, 1.7 RollerRockers, MkVIII e-fan, Dual Diaph Booster
Latest: Corbeau BajaRS heated seats :dance: keeping warm the rear end

Clem

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Re: Banks 2.5 Header Cracks - just thinking...
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2010, 01:32:25 PM »
The thinking, correct me if I am wrong, is that the hotter the engine the hotter the exhaust temps...