Topic: Built or Bought (was Re: 3" to 5" Stretch)

[Erik]

$1200?  YIKES!

my stretch cost me.... $50 or so?

yea, pass on that......  good deal for someone who had a show jeep that wanted extra wheelbase that they'll never use to brag about, but no way would anyone who wheeled their jeep pay for all that sheetmetal that is just going to be dented and scratched when wheeling..... 

good info either way... just not realistic in my opinion....

[Jeffy]

$1200?  YIKES!

my stretch cost me.... $50 or so?

yea, pass on that......  good deal for someone who had a show jeep that wanted extra wheelbase that they'll never use to brag about, but no way would anyone who wheeled their jeep pay for all that sheetmetal that is just going to be dented and scratched when wheeling..... 

good info either way... just not realistic in my opinion....

So what did you do about the gas tank?  Like I said a fuel cell will not be an option for me.  The Kit includes full length corner guards which cost around $300.  Then the rockers which are around $260.  Then you have the gas tank skid at $200 and the gas tank is $799 by itself.  3/16" steel plate isn't exactly sheetmetal yeah, it's not 1/4" but then it weighs half as much while giving decent protection.

Yeah, you can do a stretch for $50 but you still have no protection and your diff is hitting against your gas tank skid.

[Erik]

i went with an rci 2161A 15 gallon fuel cell that fits perfectly behind the back seat.

if you don't want a cell, get a tank made at a local aluminum shop or look at a blue torch fab tank.   i can't believe they sell that tank for $800..... that's highway robbery.

you can build a skid plate for anything with $50 worth of steel from the mlocal metal recycling yard.   save the $200 for that tank skid and just build your own.

i agree you get eveything as a kit, which is nice... but damn.....  for $1200 you could get an 8.8 in the rear, lock the front, and build everything you need yourself in a week's time.....


There is a local guy around my town that has every bolt on that quadaratec sells for his tj.  we call him the bolt on king since he has no knowledge of how to do anything other than buy a part out of a magazine and pay a local shop to bolt it on.  this is something i woudl expect him to buy, but not anyone who had the ability to use a welder and actually wheel their jeep.....

[Jeffy]

Well, add up the individual costs, it's not $799.  The total for the individual parts is $1550 they are only charging $1200.  So the tank is a little over $400.

How are you going to build the corner guards for $50?  I could see the rockers being built easily but not the corners.  Here's my problem though, I need the back seat and the room behind it.  Which means no in-cab fuel cell.  All this kit is really doing is collecting a bunch of parts that I'd probably buy sperately with the added feature of allowing me to move my axle back.  Yes you could chop the fenders yourself for free BUT you still haven't covered them.  I'm sure the cost of your cell is more then $50, too.  Ok, I'll look it up....Looks like Summit has the cell selling for $295.99.  So with the kit you're paying $100 more to get an additional 2 gallons and have it sit in the stock location.  Not to mention have a working gas gauge, too.  I'm not trying to argue about your choise but call this bolt-on isn't that accurate.

Also, what differentiates someone building their axles from salvage to someone who buys them from Dynatrac or Currie?  (You can now buy Dynatrac in Q-tech.)  Would they still be a 'Bolt-on king'?  I also have a friend who took his Jeep to a shop (FourXDoctor) and had them do all of his work.  He probably could have done much of it himself but he didn't want to deal with it this time around, although he is friends with the owner Mike Duncan. He's been through many suspensions and other stuff already and wanted it to be capable while also looking nice.  This time he wanted it done once and done right. He had two Dynatrac HP D60's with 5.13 gears, two ARB's, an Atlas II, custom built Alcan leafs and new wheels and tires.  It was also checked for suspension travel and clearance.  Even though he had a shop do the work, I wouldn't give him any flack about it.  It probably cost him around $14,000 for all the work and parts involved and it's a nice Jeep. Street legal and highway drivable too.

[Erik]

i'll handle your friend first since that's an easy one....  i'd give him ZERO credit.  hooray it's a jeep, who cares.  he didn't build it.  anybody can write a check.  hell i know a guy who cut a check for a shop to build him a viper powered cj on hp60's with arb's, 5.38's, arb's, coilovers, etc.  bad ass rig.  but he didn't build it and will never get credit for it.  i'd rather build my own stuff than pay someone else to bolt together my jeep and drive it.  it's a matter of dignitiy and accomplishment.  maybe i'm too stubborn and that's all there is to it.  don't know.  don't care.  a bolt on is a bolt on.  anyone can bolt on a built axle or a ____ from quadratec... ANYONE... and they'll do it without getting much respect from me.  someone that can build and fabricate their own parts has my respect.... and ANYONE else who knows what it takes to actually build something.


now, as for the stretch..... you said the tank was $800, i was merely quoting your price.  you didn't say anythign about it being reduced if bought as part of the kit.   BTF has a bolt in tank.  it's designed to work with your stock gauge and sending unit.  the tank is around 4 bills.  find a local aluminum shop to build you one.... they'll probably charge about the same or maybe less if you could work out some sort of sponsorship and get them more business......

for $50 you could go to a local metal recycling yard and buy a crap ton of steel......  everything from massive angle to flatbar and DOM or HREW......  they sell it by the pound and believe it or not, it's pretty cheap.  I built BOTH my bumpers (1/4" everything), new rear crossmember (1/4" 2x4), shock hoops front and rear (1.5" .25 DOM), rock sliders (4x7" angle) with tube steps/sliders (1.5" .25 DOM), and had enough steel left over to reinforce my dana 60 diff cover (0.25x3 flatbar) for about $45......  go play in the yard for a few hours, tip the guy working the scale, and get your unimix or co2 tank filled at the welding gas supplier on the way home.....

if you want to waste lots of money on overpriced parts to gain a couple inches of wheelbase, then go for it..... but bolting on a kit is just that... bolting on a kit....  get creative, buy some materials, and fab your own parts.... it's a lot more fun... you'll learn a lot more.... and you'll have an even bigger smile on your face when it's all done than you did when you brought your jeep home for the first time.


and as for my $50 rci fuel cell.....  bought it from a guy in a local jeep club..... i welded his SOA perches and shock mounts, he gave me his brand new fuel cell and most of the AN fittings i needed for $50 :)    i'm not the only one who barters... go get creative guys!

-Erik <---- says having a friend with a bender is a plus for corner guards.  if you were local i'd help you....

[Jeffy]

i'll handle your friend first since that's an easy one....  i'd give him ZERO credit.  hooray it's a jeep, who cares.  he didn't build it.  anybody can write a check.  hell i know a guy who cut a check for a shop to build him a viper powered cj on hp60's with arb's, 5.38's, arb's, coilovers, etc.  bad ass rig.  but he didn't build it and will never get credit for it.  i'd rather build my own stuff than pay someone else to bolt together my jeep and drive it.  it's a matter of dignitiy and accomplishment.  maybe i'm too stubborn and that's all there is to it.  don't know.  don't care.  a bolt on is a bolt on.  anyone can bolt on a built axle or a ____ from quadratec... ANYONE... and they'll do it without getting much respect from me.  someone that can build and fabricate their own parts has my respect.... and ANYONE else who knows what it takes to actually build something.


now, as for the stretch..... you said the tank was $800, i was merely quoting your price.  you didn't say anythign about it being reduced if bought as part of the kit.   BTF has a bolt in tank.  it's designed to work with your stock gauge and sending unit.  the tank is around 4 bills.  find a local aluminum shop to build you one.... they'll probably charge about the same or maybe less if you could work out some sort of sponsorship and get them more business......

for $50 you could go to a local metal recycling yard and buy a crap ton of steel......  everything from massive angle to flatbar and DOM or HREW......  they sell it by the pound and believe it or not, it's pretty cheap.  I built BOTH my bumpers (1/4" everything), new rear crossmember (1/4" 2x4), shock hoops front and rear (1.5" .25 DOM), rock sliders (4x7" angle) with tube steps/sliders (1.5" .25 DOM), and had enough steel left over to reinforce my dana 60 diff cover (0.25x3 flatbar) for about $45......  go play in the yard for a few hours, tip the guy working the scale, and get your unimix or co2 tank filled at the welding gas supplier on the way home.....

if you want to waste lots of money on overpriced parts to gain a couple inches of wheelbase, then go for it..... but bolting on a kit is just that... bolting on a kit....  get creative, buy some materials, and fab your own parts.... it's a lot more fun... you'll learn a lot more.... and you'll have an even bigger smile on your face when it's all done than you did when you brought your jeep home for the first time.


and as for my $50 rci fuel cell.....  bought it from a guy in a local jeep club..... i welded his SOA perches and shock mounts, he gave me his brand new fuel cell and most of the AN fittings i needed for $50 :)    i'm not the only one who barters... go get creative guys!

-Erik <---- says having a friend with a bender is a plus for corner guards.  if you were local i'd help you....

This is getting off subejct but it still in interesting so I'll split the topic off.  It seems you're pretty hardcore on building everything yourself.
My friend doesn't take that much credit in axles nor did he build the transfer case..  That wasn't the reason for doing the work.  He didn't cast his own engine from slag either.  Unless you're building your vehicle from scratch to begin with, and even those who build their own rock bugges, buy pre-made parts, then you're still bolting-stuff on.

I don't forge my own axle shafts, I bought them.  I didn't make my own perches or shock mounts either.  It wasn't worth the time.  This time around I didn't even install my own gears in my D44.  I installed them in my 35 and 30 but felt my time was better spent on other things.  That's not to say I couldn't install them.

My point is, where do you make the line between bought and built?  Yeah, some people don't know how to do anything and get it all done for them.  Others have had years of building their own stuff but as they get older or their family expands, they want something else.  I think for most though, it's a combination of both.

I'd like to hear from everyone else on this too so don't be afraid to jump in!

[wrangler387]

I guess i'll jump in..i'll give respect to anyone who has a nice vehicle and uses it. Erik.. you act like its hard to weld, or bend things (last i checked this is pretty simple manual labor, nothing that should make you feel more high and mighty then someone else). In all reality anyone can build/fabricate anything with the proper tools. Unfortunetly not everyone has the time or space to house all of these awesome tools. Some people don't have a house/garage to work on the jeep and store a bunch of tools, some people have a very demanding job and a family and instead of neglecting their family decide to be a real parent. It's pretty rediculous to not give someone respect just because they didn't build it themselves. For a lot of people, the opportunity cost of building things themselves is greater then just buying it. Right now i do fabricate/repair/upgrade etc. everything myself (which is why it is taking so long lol), but i'm young and don't have a lot of money. When i get older and settle down with a family, i can almost guarantee that I will not be building most of my own things; not because I can't, but because there would be better ways to spend my time.

[oldjeep]

Those are some pretty rude views.  You should realize that not everyone is in the offroad scene to build stuff, some folks just like to drive.  My club has about 30 people in it, with about a 30/70 split between the guys who fab almost everything on the jeep and those who buy bolt on stuff.  I personally like building stuff more than I like driving it, there are plenty of people who feel the opposite way.   For me building stuff is a way to do something concrete - I write computer software for a living.

I will say that doing good fab is a whole lot more than "basic mechanical skills" and having the right tools.  Unless you want to get really hurt you need at least some concept of basic engineering and materials.  I enjoy teaching my kids how to build stuff, and get a taste of some things that most of our yuppie neighbors have no idea how to do.

Those of us who like to fab, help out those who do not or cannot, but in a lot of cases there's no reason to reinvent the wheel.   For an average guy with a street driven jeep, they're better off in a lot of ways buying stuff that has been tested out and isn't going to require the tweaking that homebuilt stuff usually does.

Chuck P
www.oldjeep.com
www.mntrailriders.org

[Jeffy]

i call this "kit" a waste of money that only a mall cruiser would spend the money on, explain how you could get the same thing for less than half the price if you would just put in some wrench time, and you delete all my posts?  perks of running the forum i guess.....  seems kind of selfish considering you probably aren't the only one considering a stretch though.  that info could have helped someone who wasn't looking to be the next "bolt-on king" but i guess that doesn't matter to you.

-Erik <--- should stop suggestiong you actually fabricate your own parts if i don't want my posts deleted eh?

Well,  I took on the side of the Bolt-ons, not because I'm one of then but because this was an one sided argument.  Selfish?  You just put down 90% of the people here with your comments.  Does that make them any lesser a person because they don't have the skill time or tools? How is it going to help someone by calling them a mallcruiser, Q-tech bolt-on, etc...

[wrangler387]

I will say that doing good fab is a whole lot more than "basic mechanical skills" and having the right tools.  Unless you want to get really hurt you need at least some concept of basic engineering and materials. 

What makes it more then "basic mechanical skills"?? Cutting/welding/measuring is all simple stuff, think about it, before this new generation most men had a shop class where they learned how to use a lathe, mill, welder etc... The only difference between good fab and bad fab is the amount of care/effort someone puts into it. I do construction for a living, so maybe i'm a little biased since everyone i meet/have met/will meet can cut/measure, and then with a little help can mig weld (The tools available now a days take all the skill required out of fabrication imo). Now if people were fabricating stuff for the jeep from more exotic alloys or carbon fiber/honeycomb things then i'd consider it a little bit more then basic.

[oldjeep]

Basic mechanical skills to me means that you could install a lift kit, bleed your brakes, change a water pump.  It's another point of view thing.

I'm 37 and never had a welding class in school, it was all learned much later with help from friends and pros.  My son has had the benefit of some advanced shop/engineering classes in high school but that is not the norm for a lot of people.

Fabrication falls into a slightly different category for me.  Yes, anyone can MIG - that's a good and bad thing.  MIG has the ability to create a beautiful weld with absolutely no strength in the wrong hands.  I've seen tow points with acceptable looking welds fail horribly. Most of the people that I know in their 30's and 40's don't even fall into my basic mechanical skills category.  Most tradesman are well above that level regardless of their specialty.

[Jeffy]

Basic mechanical skills to me means that you could install a lift kit, bleed your brakes, change a water pump.  It's another point of view thing.

I'm 37 and never had a welding class in school, it was all learned much later with help from friends and pros.  My son has had the benefit of some advanced shop/engineering classes in high school but that is not the norm for a lot of people.

Fabrication falls into a slightly different category for me.  Yes, anyone can MIG - that's a good and bad thing.  MIG has the ability to create a beautiful weld with absolutely no strength in the wrong hands.  I've seen tow points with acceptable looking welds fail horribly. Most of the people that I know in their 30's and 40's don't even fall into my basic mechanical skills category.  Most tradesman are well above that level regardless of their specialty.

+1    Just look on ebay and you can find examples of iffy craftsmanship.  HS shops are fading away.  Too expensive, not considered learning, etc.  I found that I use those skills from the shop classes more often then trig or calc.  I think they're worth taking especially when they are free.

Now, I've never learned out to use a mill or lathe.  On the other hand, my Grandfather was a tool & die man for GM, and made his own drill bits.  Most people would never think of making their own drill bits today. 

Here's a new question:

What about a CNC or water jet, all your doing is plugging in numbers and letting the machine do the work.  Could/world you take credit for the parts?  Is this any different from say, drawing up some blueprints and having a fabricator make it for you?

[wrangler387]

I didn't have a shop class in highschool. I have/had the internet, thats almost all anyone needs to know how to fabricate. Sure someone could make a terrible weld with a MIG, but if they cared, they would read the instructions in the little pamphlet that comes with the welders, or go online and read more in depth (it isn't hard by any means). IMO the skill that was once needed to make things has been replaced with technological advances. As jeffy said, CNC. Technological advances is replacing everything though, now adays anyone can engineer parts too, gotta love all the CAD programs out now adays. The main thing i'm trying to say is would i respect somone who built their own jeep more then the person who bought their jeep b/c they have a job/family that they put first... no i wouldn't.

[aw12345]

But isn't it  a good thing that fabricating is more affordable and easier than the days of just the torch and good old arc welder. Mig makes it easier and quicker to weld. Even though all I have is my good old torch set and an old miller welder. Still you cannot beat a mig welder and plasma cutter same goes for a good tubing bender. As far as suspension and so forth goes it takes some insight into suspension concepts but then most all of this is knowledge that can be aquired. I agree with making my own stuff and  or installing things my self why pay somebody a load of money to do at best a mediocre job. Scrap steel is cheap and it is good to use ingenuity and express your self with your own faqb work on your Jeep. Makes it a lot more fun when it out performs a shop built rig or you have items on it that simply cannot be bought. It increases the pride in ownership

Art

[dexetr30]

The never-ending “built not bought” argument. Myself… it’s a bit of built and bought when it comes to any of my vehicles. Mostly though… it’s bought. Most of the time I just don’t have the time (or the skills) but I do take on smaller projects when I’m able to. For the guys that have everything done in a shop… I have respect for them just as much as I do for those who built things themselves. These people most likely had to work their tales off to afford to pay for the mods and I respect that. Either way, they had to put time in somewhere to get the money to pay for someone else to do the work.