Topic: Diesel Conversions

[sharpxmen]

i read through the specs on that VW swap. For what it costs, i dont think you are getting much in the way of power gain. 165hp, 280 torque is not all that much power when you could drop a v8 for cheaper. There is the added mpg as an advantage of going with the diesel, however...but the cost is so much, you may as well still go with a v8 swap. The 1.9 is quite light (lighter than the 2.5l) so that too would be an advantage, but i still think a 2.8l swap or a 4bt would be the best deal. the 4bt can produce far more power than the numbers the VW engine is putting down. The 2.8l would also produce some good power for a wrangler, but the swap is pretty pricey and requires that all the sensors (tire pressure, etc) get transplanted with it. I think all that wiring would get pretty complicated for someone looking to do this themselves.

Then again, if they could somehow pull more power out of that VW..somewhere in the neighborhood of 200+hp and 300+ torque while still returning 25+mpgs, THEN i would prob be more interested in going with that.

it all depends on where you start, that means if you currently get 13mpg you're not going to be at 25mpg with just the diesel swap. the Jeep got to 13 mpg due to mods and if you swap to a diesel those mods are still there

you can guess what you'll be getting based on what your mpg is today, being strict on the Jeep side i'll go with .50 bsfc (although is more like .45 but just for the sake of argument) and will use .32 for the diesel - if your current mpg is 13 with the diesel you'll get 20mpg. If your current mpg is 16 the diesel will give you 25mpg. If your Jeep is stock (i know it isn't) and you're getting 21mpg the diesel will give almost 33mpg

it's about how much power you need to move the vehicle and how efficient is the engine powering it (and how heavy your foot is of course but that reflects in the first variable).

that being said, i'd take a good diesel any day, but i do think the 1.9tdi is a bit small in displacement (there is a vw 3.3L v8 TDI)

[Jeffy]

i read through the specs on that VW swap. For what it costs, i dont think you are getting much in the way of power gain. 165hp, 280 torque is not all that much power when you could drop a v8 for cheaper. There is the added mpg as an advantage of going with the diesel, however...but the cost is so much, you may as well still go with a v8 swap. The 1.9 is quite light (lighter than the 2.5l) so that too would be an advantage, but i still think a 2.8l swap or a 4bt would be the best deal. the 4bt can produce far more power than the numbers the VW engine is putting down. The 2.8l would also produce some good power for a wrangler, but the swap is pretty pricey and requires that all the sensors (tire pressure, etc) get transplanted with it. I think all that wiring would get pretty complicated for someone looking to do this themselves.

Then again, if they could somehow pull more power out of that VW..somewhere in the neighborhood of 200+hp and 300+ torque while still returning 25+mpgs, THEN i would prob be more interested in going with that.

Keep in mind the venerable 4.2L makes around 112HP and 210TQ.  The 2.5 L VM Motori CRD makes 160HP and 280TQ.  HP isn't really what the Jeep needs, it's the torque.

The 1.9L weighs in at 265lbs.  The 4BT comes in at 745lbs with no accessories.  You will also need to beef up the suspension to handle this extra weight, especially on a coil-spring Jeep.  And don't even think about having all that weight on top of a D30.

As for cost, unless you're salvaging all of your parts, you probably aren't going to come out cheaper.  Also, the other big advantage of going diesel for some of us in CA is that the Jeep would no longer need emissions as long as it's a pre-2003 engine.

The BIG problem with the 2.8L is that the EGR valve is known to be a faulty design.  When these things go they're $300 to replace.  Mopar Performance removed the EGR when they did their experiment with the 'kits'.  And like a V8 swap you're looking at replacing the engine and transmission.

If you're looking at keeping a small light package, then a 1.9L VW TDI isn't a bad choice at all.

[stan98tj]

The 1.9l is a great engine. The 2nd Mate on my ship currently has one in his Golf (2000) and easily gets around 45mpg, if he's easy on it, he gets around 50. He says his VW weighs in at around 3800lbs.  He doesnt think spooling it up to 165hp will be healthy for it though...you may run the risk of blowing it.
The reason i was looking at the 4bt is that i figure if that motor is good enough to pull around a box van easily, it would pull around the jeep with no problems and possibly do so at real good efficiency. I am aware of the need for a new front suspension if i go that route. Given the lack of electronics, i think that may be cheaper than the 1.9l swap.
Jeffy, is it even possible for someone to get a 2.5l VM motor in this country?? I take it you would prob go with the 1.9l if you were to swap to diesel?

[stan98tj]

here is another thought i had after talking to the 2nd Mate (owner of a 1.9l Golf TDI). I began thinking if a cummins 4bt is at all neccessary. Im aware that it can be dialed up to produce mass quantaties of torque, but i wonder if you need all that. The 1.9l will allow for well over 200lbs torque. I wonder how that translates into our "use." Does this allow for the jeep to be a bit faster than it is? Does this allow for better economy? It should def allow for a good amount more power and im sure you would def feel it. My question is, given the fact that it produces those figures, is there a need for a 4bt which has the potential to produce even higher figures but at the cost of such a heavy weight (over 700lbs??) while the 1.9l is lighter than even our 2.5l.

[sharpxmen]

here is another thought i had after talking to the 2nd Mate (owner of a 1.9l Golf TDI). I began thinking if a cummins 4bt is at all neccessary. Im aware that it can be dialed up to produce mass quantaties of torque, but i wonder if you need all that. The 1.9l will allow for well over 200lbs torque. I wonder how that translates into our "use." Does this allow for the jeep to be a bit faster than it is? Does this allow for better economy? It should def allow for a good amount more power and im sure you would def feel it. My question is, given the fact that it produces those figures, is there a need for a 4bt which has the potential to produce even higher figures but at the cost of such a heavy weight (over 700lbs??) while the 1.9l is lighter than even our 2.5l.

it's how much torque you have at what rpm, so it's better to have let's say 180ftlb of torque at 1000 rpm and that grows from there to a max of 220ftlb at 3000rpm than to have a max of 250ftlb at 4000rpm but it starts at 100ftlb at 1000rpm (numbers are for the sake of argument). that allows for shorter shifts and better fuel economy, not to mention the less wear on the engine.

[Jeffy]

The 1.9l is a great engine. The 2nd Mate on my ship currently has one in his Golf (2000) and easily gets around 45mpg, if he's easy on it, he gets around 50. He says his VW weighs in at around 3800lbs.  He doesnt think spooling it up to 165hp will be healthy for it though...you may run the risk of blowing it.
The reason i was looking at the 4bt is that i figure if that motor is good enough to pull around a box van easily, it would pull around the jeep with no problems and possibly do so at real good efficiency. I am aware of the need for a new front suspension if i go that route. Given the lack of electronics, i think that may be cheaper than the 1.9l swap.
Jeffy, is it even possible for someone to get a 2.5l VM motor in this country?? I take it you would prob go with the 1.9l if you were to swap to diesel?

Diesels are built inherently stronger which makes more acceptable for mild tunes.  The key to getting a dependable engine is not mod it too much.  Same thing goes for gas engines that are turbo'ed or supercharged.

I think there are several reasons why people are crapping on the 1.9L.  It's the same reasons people crap on the 2.5L.  People are building bigger and bigger.  Jeeps are getting heavier and heavier.  People are also wanting bigger.  Sometimes for the sake of just being bigger.  Although it really depends on what you want to do.  Unless you're going to make a big rockcrawler buggy, I don't think the 4BT is a good choice.  Same goes for the Isuzu 4BD1T which is used in the cab over trucks.  It's similar to the 4BT but more common as it's used as a heavy-truck engine.

You can occasionally find a 2.5 L VM Motori CRD in the US but they aren't DOT legal.  There was a place in FL that was selling crate engines for export.  I forget what it was called.  Problem is you're really limited on parts availability.

The real problem is there are very few small light truck diesels in the US.  Trucks usually have a big diesel while cars typically have a really small diesel.  The VW 1.9L is on the small side but I think it's fine for a Jeep as long as you're not overloading your Jeep.  Cost-wise a 4.0L would be a better swap.  A 1.9L is a bit about being a little different.  Being able to run diesel is a plus though.  Better mileage is also nice but would take several years to ever break even on an engine swap.  Although the extended range is good for time when you're not going to be near a gas station for a while.  Engine swaps aren't really cost-effective.

I would love an extra 140TQ on the stock 2.5L with no change in HP but that's not possible.

[stan98tj]

Diesels are built inherently stronger which makes more acceptable for mild tunes.  The key to getting a dependable engine is not mod it too much.  Same thing goes for gas engines that are turbo'ed or supercharged.

I think there are several reasons why people are crapping on the 1.9L.  It's the same reasons people crap on the 2.5L.  People are building bigger and bigger.  Jeeps are getting heavier and heavier.  People are also wanting bigger.  Sometimes for the sake of just being bigger.  Although it really depends on what you want to do.  Unless you're going to make a big rockcrawler buggy, I don't think the 4BT is a good choice.  Same goes for the Isuzu 4BD1T which is used in the cab over trucks.  It's similar to the 4BT but more common as it's used as a heavy-truck engine.

You can occasionally find a 2.5 L VM Motori CRD in the US but they aren't DOT legal.  There was a place in FL that was selling crate engines for export.  I forget what it was called.  Problem is you're really limited on parts availability.

The real problem is there are very few small light truck diesels in the US.  Trucks usually have a big diesel while cars typically have a really small diesel.  The VW 1.9L is on the small side but I think it's fine for a Jeep as long as you're not overloading your Jeep.  Cost-wise a 4.0L would be a better swap.  A 1.9L is a bit about being a little different.  Being able to run diesel is a plus though.  Better mileage is also nice but would take several years to ever break even on an engine swap.  Although the extended range is good for time when you're not going to be near a gas station for a while.  Engine swaps aren't really cost-effective.

I would love an extra 140TQ on the stock 2.5L with no change in HP but that's not possible.

My end result with the jeep is to build a 4x4 vehicle that has a good balance between off roader and DD. Something that i can travel long distances with, like an expedition vehicle. Id like to get a setup that is close to what LR offers (300TDI and a 2.4l??). THose vehicles (and the model comparable toyotas) make great expedition vehicles and are used pretty much everywhere. If i could get my hands on the diesel engine that was offered overseas in the wrangler, i would be happy. I cant however, so im looking for the next closest thing. It sounds like you are saying the 4bt may be overkill...so my question is, would the 1.9l be closest to the setup i want ie: power (i would like a healthy amount of torque), long range, longevity, efficiency, and id like to run a snorkel and not have to worry about water damage (the 1.9l carries a host of electronics, the 4bt does not).

Also, i think there may be such a thing as TOO MUCH power. How much torque do you really need given what we drive, it's not like we use our wranglers to haul lumber. Id like to have a disel that can idle up a decent incline and take me through trails without too much fuss, and get me to highway speed in a decent amount of time, though a bit quicker than what i have now.... Will a tuned 1.9 be able to offer that? Im thinking id like around 200hp, 300 torque. Torque, being more important.
Thoughts?

[Jeffy]

My end result with the jeep is to build a 4x4 vehicle that has a good balance between off roader and DD. Something that i can travel long distances with, like an expedition vehicle. Id like to get a setup that is close to what LR offers (300TDI and a 2.4l??). THose vehicles (and the model comparable toyotas) make great expedition vehicles and are used pretty much everywhere. If i could get my hands on the diesel engine that was offered overseas in the wrangler, i would be happy. I cant however, so im looking for the next closest thing. It sounds like you are saying the 4bt may be overkill...so my question is, would the 1.9l be closest to the setup i want ie: power (i would like a healthy amount of torque), long range, longevity, efficiency, and id like to run a snorkel and not have to worry about water damage (the 1.9l carries a host of electronics, the 4bt does not).

Also, i think there may be such a thing as TOO MUCH power. How much torque do you really need given what we drive, it's not like we use our wranglers to haul lumber. Id like to have a disel that can idle up a decent incline and take me through trails without too much fuss, and get me to highway speed in a decent amount of time, though a bit quicker than what i have now.... Will a tuned 1.9 be able to offer that? Im thinking id like around 200hp, 300 torque. Torque, being more important.
Thoughts?

Buy a 2.8L CRD from AEV if you want a 2.8L.  Otherwise buy a Liberty and do an engine swap.

Torque is what gets you up to speed fast not HP.  It's also what keep you going up hills.  So yes, 280 lbs-ft is significantly more then your 140 lbs-ft.  If you want a 200hp and 300ft-lbs then get a Chevy 5.3L V8.

[aw12345]

I would not touch anything made by VM motori with a ten foot pole.
The Cummins 4BT is a slug in those box trucks, it reliable except for the Bosch injection pumps on then, they love to develop fuel leaks around the pump shafts and it's a very expensive repair unless you find the special tool for it. They way a ton for it's low power output, leak oil worse than an English motorcycle. If you want to do that much work use a 6BT or ISB engine much better power to weight ratio.
Personally I would like to stuff the Mercedes Sprinter van engine in a Jeep, that engine makes very good power and is not big or heavy.
At this time for a diesel conversion that is available the Volkswagen 1.9 is your best bet. Is it worth the money, or do you get a good return on your investment heck no.
I would use a 4.3 GM engine with a 700r4 or ls 460E and call it good. Much cheaper and not a hard conversion, gives you a good return on your investment, reasonably good power and torque and is a well proven setup that wheels well and gets decent milage

[jfrabat]

How difficult is it to get the VW, Toyota or BMW diesels in the US?  Here they are a dime a dozen...  Actually, my daily driver is a Toyota 3.0L turbo diesel with intercooler that packs a nice and steady torque curve.  Gear it right, and it would plain ROCK!  You could probably also increase boost for a dedicated rig and get even more power out of it...  I know TRD makes some mods for that engine, as the platform of the Fortuner is the same as the HiLux, and I saw one really nicely equiped the weekend before last with 38 boggers that ran AWESOME.

[stan98tj]

im thinking the VW or 2.8l may be a good bet. Dont think i really need all the power the 4bt is putting down. 280lb-ft (1.9l) is waaay more than what we have stock. may be able to dial it up just a tad. i dont know what numbers the 2.8l is putting down, but it's prob around that, if not more. Electronics are what would scare me...just have to make sure it all is water tight. I think that AEV conversion is like 30k though!!!! I dont know if one could just buy the engine from AEV, but it would prob be expensive.

[jfrabat]

im thinking the VW or 2.8l may be a good bet. Dont think i really need all the power the 4bt is putting down. 280lb-ft (1.9l) is waaay more than what we have stock. may be able to dial it up just a tad. i dont know what numbers the 2.8l is putting down, but it's prob around that, if not more. Electronics are what would scare me...just have to make sure it all is water tight. I think that AEV conversion is like 30k though!!!! I dont know if one could just buy the engine from AEV, but it would prob be expensive.

A complete Toyota HiLux in Panama is around $20K; I am sure you could get an engine out of a totaled one for under $5K (maybe around $2K).  You would still need to match it to the Jeep, though...

For your reference, the 1KD-FTW Turbo Diesel 3.0L 4-cylinder (yeah, you would still have a 4-banger!) engine (found in hiLux, Fortuners, and God knows where else) puts out 160HP and (the best part) 252 ft lbs from 1,400 rpms all the way to 3,200 rpms...

1KD-FTV

First appearing in 2000, the 1KD-FTV is one of the newest engines built by Toyota.

The 1KD-FTV is a 3.0L (2982cc) straight-4 common rail diesel engine with a variable geometry turbocharger and Intercooler. It has 16 valves and a DOHC (double overhead camshaft) design. Bore is 96 mm and stroke is 103 mm. It generates 170 hp (125 kW) at 3400 rpm, and 260 lbf·ft (352 N·m) of torque at 1800-3400 rpm. Redline of this engine is at 4200 RPM. Compression ratio is 17.9:1.

This engine uses Toyota's D-4D Common Rail fuel injection technology operating at ultra high pressures of up to 135 mpa (1350 bar or about 19,580psig) which is about 8 times more than the pressure of conventional fuel injection systems within a "common rail" that feeds the injectors on all four cylinders (older diesel engines have a separate line leading from the injection pump to each injector). This is combined with a 32-bit ECU which controls fuel quantity, valve-timing, and boost pressure at different engine parameters resulting in best fuel economy and also full utilization of power during acceleration. Pilot injection is also utilized by the common rail fuel system to smooth engine operation. Small amounts of fuel are introduced into the combustion chamber prior to the main injection event, reducing lag time and promoting more continuous and complete combustion. Exterior and interior engine noise is also reduced.

The 1KD engine produces 17% more horsepower with 11% less fuel consumption than its predecessor, the 1KZ engine.

This engine was first used in Toyota Land Cruiser Prado, 3rd Generation Hilux Surf and now used in the Toyota Fortuner, Hiace and Toyota Hilux.

It presents a big issue with the injectors which is still pending to be solved. In Spain, they change the injectors within the first 7 seven years after buy, but still no solution is provided by the manufacturer.

[Jeffy]

How difficult is it to get the VW, Toyota or BMW diesels in the US?  Here they are a dime a dozen...  Actually, my daily driver is a Toyota 3.0L turbo diesel with intercooler that packs a nice and steady torque curve.  Gear it right, and it would plain ROCK!  You could probably also increase boost for a dedicated rig and get even more power out of it...  I know TRD makes some mods for that engine, as the platform of the Fortuner is the same as the HiLux, and I saw one really nicely equiped the weekend before last with 38 boggers that ran AWESOME.

The VW would be the easiest as they have those in all 50 states.  Toyota, Mitsubishi or even a Nissan would need to be imported as a 'front cut' and would probably cost around $3000-5000 I think.  (I'm pretty sure I mentioned them early on in the thread) The engine's wouldn't be DOT legal although, I do know of some Toyota Diesels coming across the border from the North that have been CA legal and SMOG exempt.  Really though, I think the VW is probably going to be the best bet because of it's availability.

I agree with Art on the VM.  As nice as it might sound, the EGR failing isn't something to take lightly.  When that fails your SOL as the engine won't run properly.  It's not like a gas engine where it's no big deal if the emissions craps out.  So you better be carrying a spare.

[jfrabat]

I saw one really nicely equiped the weekend before last with 38 boggers that ran AWESOME.

This is the one I was talking about:

[DieselJeeper]

A Cummins 4BT may seem a bit underpowered if you leave it stock - but they build up like a 6BT and you can easily make more power than a stock Jeep's driveline can handle. At around 800 lbs, they are a bit hefty on a little Jeep's front end.  Toss in some decent injectors, a bigger turbo, turn up the IP - and you can twist up the axles and shred the differentials like they were made of play doh. 

A GM 6.2/6.5 might be a good candidate - they are lighter than the 4BT and put out gobs of torque.  The engine mounts and the transmission bolt pattern are the same as a SBC, so the swap should not be that difficult.  Army surplus 6.2's are often available and relatively inexpensive.  A J-code 6.2 puts out ~ 150 hp and ~250 lb-ft, that should scoot a Jeep around pretty nicely even without a turbo.  This one would be my choice, but I do have 2 of these engines in my shop.

The venerable Benz 3.0 liter 5 cylinder turbodiesel OM617 is a tough one to beat.  They put out adequate power that can be enhanced to pretty serious levels (Check out some of the YouTube videos of fast diesel Benzes).  There are adapters available to help with the swap.  Fuel economy is good, the engines are well known for their durability and there are a lot of them out there.  I picked up a rusty 300SD just for the engine, the rest of the vehicle will be scrapped and in between I'll part out as much of it as I can.  The net cost of the driveline should be zero.

Save the little VW TDI's for the Suzuki/Geo crowd.  It's a bit small for a Jeep.  They can be turned up, but to make adequate power it will cost.

Sorry if these options aren't available in California - it's gotta suck to live in that state!  At least rust isn't the issue it is up north.  It should be possible to find a nice CJ7 and drop a Benz engine into it of the right vintage...