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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: brokenwrist21 on November 30, 2012, 12:25:59 PM
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Hey guys, it's been awhile since I've been on. Anyway I was going to do a 2wd low kit and sye in my 231 thats in my wrangler, but after reading up and talking to my boss I have figured out that swapping in a 241or makes more sense. I'm thinking about this for the same reasons it was put in the rubicons, 4:1 low range and fixed yoke output. My concerns are, 1. are the bolt patterns the same? and 2. will my shift linkage work or will I have to use the 241 linkage with my shifter?
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Spline count on the input shaft will be your hurdle. A 2.5L manual uses a 21 Spline, IIRC. 241OR will be 23 Spline.
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You are wanting to install into what model Jeep, and which trans? Auto TJs have 23-spline output. If other than TJ with auto, as stated, spline count will be an issue. Another may be the floor in a YJ since the overall size (diameter) is larger than the normal 231. The shift linkage shouldn't be an issue connecting, but adjustment will be necessary. That's not a problem, just something you have to do. Next, like you stated, fixed yoke. However, Rocktracs are not yoked, they are flanged. You could get a yoke or keep the flange. Next, while getting the Rocktrac, look for the rear ds since it will bolt to the flange. You may have to change the yoke on the rear axle to mate to the yoke series of the stock TJ Rubicon tcase. Now, I'm assuming the Rocktrac you are looking for is from a TJ and not the JK. The JK is similar but alas another different case....lol.
Next, depending on your year Jeep model, the TJ Rocktrac has an electronic speedo sensor and not the regular mechanical speedo. Lastly, since you looked the rear output of the case, don't forget the front yoke series as well.
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You are wanting to install into what model Jeep, and which trans? Auto TJs have 23-spline output. If other than TJ with auto, as stated, spline count will be an issue. Another may be the floor in a YJ since the overall size (diameter) is larger than the normal 231. The shift linkage shouldn't be an issue connecting, but adjustment will be necessary. That's not a problem, just something you have to do. Next, like you stated, fixed yoke. However, Rocktracs are not yoked, they are flanged. You could get a yoke or keep the flange. Next, while getting the Rocktrac, look for the rear ds since it will bolt to the flange. You may have to change the yoke on the rear axle to mate to the yoke series of the stock TJ Rubicon tcase. Now, I'm assuming the Rocktrac you are looking for is from a TJ and not the JK. The JK is similar but alas another different case....lol.
Next, depending on your year Jeep model, the TJ Rocktrac has an electronic speedo sensor and not the regular mechanical speedo. Lastly, since you looked the rear output of the case, don't forget the front yoke series as well.
Before the TJ got the 241OR and the SYE conversions of the mod to late 90's, people were swapping NVG241's into 4.0L YJ's.
Spline count won't be the only problem. There's a big bearing and small bearing output shaft as well as a long spline and medium, short spline and early and late cut gears.
IIRC, the OP has an AX-5.
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You might consider saving up for an Atlas 4.3:1 or better. Then you can rev it up in low range and run in higher transmission gears without worrying about damaging the planetary gears in the 241OR.
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the planetary gears in the Rubi 241 are gigantic, you'd be busting other things before those would give way.
aside of the spline count there's also a matter of sealing and input length, the 241 in YJ seals the transmission and the tailhousing in the AX5 is lot shallower than the one on NV3550 or NSG370, not sure about the auto (if there's enough room). In any case there is no 21 spline input for the Rubi t-case that i know of, so in that case you'd need to do a transmission swap as well.
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the planetary gears in the Rubi 241 are gigantic, you'd be busting other things before those would give way.
aside of the spline count there's also a matter of sealing and input length, the 241 in YJ seals the transmission [...]
in the post above i meant to say the 231 in the YJ and not 241
here's a side by side 231 planetary and the 241OR so you can see the size difference
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Drivetrain_Upgrades/Doubler/1c_NP241ORvsNP231_Planetary_2.jpg)
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Go with the 2lo and sye, you'll be money, time, and headache ahead.
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Sharp, do you know the differences in torque ratings between those two planetary gearsets.
I built a stout 231 for my YJ, to include a 6-gear planetary, wide chain kit, 2lo, and Super-Short SYE. The 4banger isn't going to hurt it.
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Sharp, do you know the differences in torque ratings between those two planetary gearsets.
I built a stout 231 for my YJ, to include a 6-gear planetary, wide chain kit, 2lo, and Super-Short SYE. The 4banger isn't going to hurt it.
my point was that you won't damage the gears in the rubi, the post was in reply to this
You might consider saving up for an Atlas 4.3:1 or better. Then you can rev it up in low range and run in higher transmission gears without worrying about damaging the planetary gears in the 241OR.
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Right. The Rubi case can handle high rpm's unlike the Tera-low kit.
My point was you can't judge strength by size. Case in point, the 231 has a higher torque rating than the 242.
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Right. The Rubi case can handle high rpm's unlike the Tera-low kit.
My point was you can't judge strength by size. Case in point, the 231 has a higher torque rating than the 242.
let me see if i get this right, so you're saying the planetary gears in the 231 withstand higher load than the 241OR? weird that they intalled in the rubi and not go with a 231 then.
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What he is getting at is that he built a 231 case with a 6 gear planetary that was used in Dodges if I am not mistaken, Still not sure the torque rating is all that much higher, the 241 in a Rubi is plenty stout with it's 4:1 ratio, About the only time they seem to break is when the Front CV joint seizes, which kills 231's equally easily.
The only valid reason for a 241 case over a 231 case is the reliable 4:1 low range.
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What he is getting at is that he built a 231 case with a 6 gear planetary that was used in Dodges if I am not mistaken, Still not sure the torque rating is all that much higher, the 241 in a Rubi is plenty stout with it's 4:1 ratio, About the only time they seem to break is when the Front CV joint seizes, which kills 231's equally easily.
The only valid reason for a 241 case over a 231 case is the reliable 4:1 low range.
i wasn't suggesting he should go for the 241OR Rock-Trac (the OP), i answered a different post
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let me see if i get this right, so you're saying the planetary gears in the 231 withstand higher load than the 241OR? weird that they intalled in the rubi and not go with a 231 then.
Not sure where you got that, I never claimed to know the torque rating of the 241or. My point was size doesn't always matter lol.
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ok so, after doing some thinking, i realized that i would have to a tranny swap as well. I thought about swapping in an ax15, but then thought i might as well go with an nv3550. I realize the electronic spedo problem. There has to be a way to adapt it to fit the yj harness and make it work.
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Doesn't the '93 have an electronic speedo? What's the problem?
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Now you are looking at transmission swap and TC swap. How much will this cost? How does it compare against an Atlas with no transmission swap, maybe a used Atlas? Pros and cons as always but it's worth taking a look.
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you can use a dakota digital box to get the impulses/mile converted between the rubi output and the YJ PCM. You will need the NV3550 and not the AX15 to bolt the 241OR (for the tailhousing).
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Trans swap isn't all that bad an idea since the AX5 is a problematic trans
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I agree with Neil. If your ax-5 is in good condition, look for an Atlas 4.3:1 or 5:1 with 21 spline input. For my TJ with a 4.0, I went though all the same options, plus the Dana 300 flip with Lomax 4:1 gears and twin stick. The atlas and dana 300 are all gear drive and stronger that the OR241. The D300 flip and 4:1 is slightly cheaper that the Atlas, but the Atlas comes with a warrantee. Both the D300 and atlas give you a longer rear driveshaft (better drive angle). If you switch transmissions and need a different input, AA can accomodate. Go Atlas with cable shifters, 1 inch body lift (for clearance) and you'll never look back. :clap: Good sources for Atlas are Poly Performance (West Coast) and AtoZ Fabrication - ask for Zach (East Coast).
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I agree with Neil. If your ax-5 is in good condition, look for an Atlas 4.3:1 or 5:1 with 21 spline input. For my TJ with a 4.0, I went though all the same options, plus the Dana 300 flip with Lomax 4:1 gears and twin stick. The atlas and dana 300 are all gear drive and stronger that the OR241. The D300 flip and 4:1 is slightly cheaper that the Atlas, but the Atlas comes with a warrantee. Both the D300 and atlas give you a longer rear driveshaft (better drive angle). If you switch transmissions and need a different input, AA can accomodate. Go Atlas with cable shifters, 1 inch body lift (for clearance) and you'll never look back. :clap: Good sources for Atlas are Poly Performance (West Coast) and AtoZ Fabrication - ask for Zach (East Coast).
Why run cables when you can just use the universal sticks? Just curious.
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the yj spedo has sensor thats gear driven in the t-case. my ax5 isnt being problematic yet, but i dont abuse it and i make sure it stays full of fluid. i just want a better transmission, and theres always room for improvement in the t-case area. when the first 241or rolled out, i thought who really needs that for the street, but a few years have gone by i've learned alot gained about of knowledge, and after doing somemore reading i think the 241or is what i want, i wont be using low range alot, but my 231 just isnt low enough sometimes
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i wont be using low range alot, but my 231 just isnt low enough sometimes
Here in the Midwest 4:1 is often times too low for general trail use. In my experience it's best to gear your axles lower for best performance on and off road, and keeping the 2.72:1 low range.
Have you regeared your stock axles? If not, don't look at the 231 as the gearing problem.
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"Why run cables when you can just use the universal sticks? Just curious."
1. Easier to adjust and install - you can adjust the shifting and then put the TC under the jeep
2. To install the atlas, you need to create some extra space - lower the skid, body lift, or 5 pound sheet metal tool (reshape the floor board) - if you use body mounts, the clearance between the sticks and the floor pan is very tight. Of course you can cut the floor...
3. If the body/frame relationship shifts (e.g., laying the Jeep against something) - the sticks can get pushed and the TC pops out of gear
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the yj spedo has sensor thats gear driven in the t-case.
that's correct, but it has a signal output (3 wires, ground, +5v or +8v can't remember exactly and signal), the 241OR has the same output but the impulses/mile is different than the YJ signal, you can use a dakota digital box that can be adjusted to correct the signal output. I'd say that's the least of your worries.
roughly this is what you would need for the swap if you plan to do NV3550 & 241OR:
Dodge Dakota 4 cyl trans bellhousing
in case you have an interrnal slave you also need clutch fork, throwout bearing, external slave and hydraulic line
longer slave pushrod (i think it's about 1/2'' difference)
Camaro 4cyl / 4spd clutch disc
Advance Adapters pilot bushing for NV3500
custom rear driveshaft (i'm not sure about the front)
Dakota Digital signal converter box
some work on the t-case shifter
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"Why run cables when you can just use the universal sticks? Just curious."
1. Easier to adjust and install - you can adjust the shifting and then put the TC under the jeep
2. To install the atlas, you need to create some extra space - lower the skid, body lift, or 5 pound sheet metal tool (reshape the floor board) - if you use body mounts, the clearance between the sticks and the floor pan is very tight. Of course you can cut the floor...
3. If the body/frame relationship shifts (e.g., laying the Jeep against something) - the sticks can get pushed and the TC pops out of gear
Have any pictures?
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"Have any pictures?" No, but I will take some and post (after camping this weekend).
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It's tight quarters where the Atlas lives
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/aartw12345/tinkertoy/bigyeller2325.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/aartw12345/tinkertoy/tinkertoy014.jpg)