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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: stan98tj on December 31, 2012, 07:16:28 AM
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New noise the jeep has been making recently. When I engage 4wd, i get some type of "thunking" or knocking from the front end. Doesn't happen in 2wd...if it does, it's too low or faint for me to feel or hear. 4wd does work, it's just that I'm not sure where this noise is from. I grabbed the front driveshaft and it didn't seem to have any play in it. Could it be a blown hub? Bad drive shaft? Would 4wd engage if it were a bad hub?
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Are you turning when it knocks?
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bushings on control arms maybe (or the joints if you upgraded)
is it knocking when you engage or when you start from standstill (anyway, i mean details on when the knock occurs).
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turning doesn't affect it, knocks either way. the knocking slows down as I slow down, loud at first and then sorta subsides a bit (but that could be cause I may not hear it as well while driving?)
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so is it 1 knock or repetitive (i assume that's what you mean by slowing down as you slow down). in that case i say a u-joint or R&P
one thing you can do is suspend the front and and keep it in 2wd, rotate each wheel and see if you hear something (lift 1 wheel at the time if you have an open diff or selectable so the d/s rotates) and if the knock is there try to figure out where it comes from (a buddy rotating the wheel would come in handy here).
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Could be a worn chain in the transfer case, they can slap the inside of the case when in 4wd.
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Update:
New Years day, I'm on my way home at about 1am and I get on the highway, at about 50mph I feel a very strong and loud vibration pulsing through the entire cab. I reduce speed to about 40, seems to be ok and then gets worse until a series of loud knocks, bangs and shakes and the sound of metal scraping on metal forces me to pull over. ATF fluid is pouring from under the jeep, pieces of my transfer case are laying in the transmission skid. Time to call the first tow of the year, i'll have to wait til daylight to remove the skid....happy F*&%ING new year.
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Sorry to hear that.
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Sorry to hear that.
Just Empty Every Pocket? been my new years resolution since 2007 ;)
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Well, I think the knocking was the first clue to not drive it. :wall:
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Well, I think the knocking was the first clue to not drive it. :wall:
it was only doing it in 4wd at first...then it did it in 2wd, but i was already on the highway then :whistle:
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OK, so the case is grenaded. I have pics ill put up later. I'd like to know what my options are.
Can i run any t-case out of a TJ? I have a 3spd auto, by the way.
Also, is there any way for me to run a Rubicon case? I've also heard of the terra four low kit. Any opinions? If i can't run a rubi, could i gear the stock case to have 4:1 like a rubi?
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i think the rubi would work, never measured to see if there's any difference between transmissions at the output shaft and housing (as far as clearance for the t-case input) but from what i recall the NSG and NV3550 are very similar (same depth roughly) - i have both in my garage and i can do some checking/measuring if you really considering it. The things that i think would need attention would be the driveshaft (rear) and the speed sensor (different inpulses/mile). Possibly the t-case shifter as well but that's probably easy to adapt (if there's any difference, i'm not sure).
EDIT: i can't remember if you have a 6 cyl or a 4 cyl, if the latter forget about the rubi t-case, you need the transmission as well.
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i think the rubi would work, never measured to see if there's any difference between transmissions at the output shaft and housing (as far as clearance for the t-case input) but from what i recall the NSG and NV3550 are very similar (same depth roughly) - i have both in my garage and i can do some checking/measuring if you really considering it. The things that i think would need attention would be the driveshaft (rear) and the speed sensor (different inpulses/mile). Possibly the t-case shifter as well but that's probably easy to adapt (if there's any difference, i'm not sure).
EDIT: i can't remember if you have a 6 cyl or a 4 cyl, if the latter forget about the rubi t-case, you need the transmission as well.
I def have the venerable 4cyl + 3spd auto. So i take it the Rubi is a not an option? I thought the 3spd 4 banger trany had 23 spline like the rubi?
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I think the rubi might be a possibility. Your auto and the 4.0L transmissions use a 23 spline long shaft. Not only do you have to match the spline count but also the spline length. Early cut and late cut relate to YJ's and TJ's, IIRC. http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/np_nvg_input_gears.htm
For any other NP/NVG 231 you can mix and match to get it to work. You just need to swap your input shaft and possibly the rear housing and output shaft. -J is for Jeep, -C is for Chevy, D- is for Dodge. I think there's also a -HD as well that was used in the Dodge 1500.
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If i go for the rubi case, i would need to ditch my SYE and driveshaft. I think i get to keep that if i go with the teraflex system. Has anyone used the teraflex, or heard anything about it. I've heard it's a bit loud.
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I def have the venerable 4cyl + 3spd auto. So i take it the Rubi is a not an option? I thought the 3spd 4 banger trany had 23 spline like the rubi?
hmm, i don't know in that case, never looked at an auto.
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If i go for the rubi case, i would need to ditch my SYE and driveshaft. I think i get to keep that if i go with the teraflex system. Has anyone used the teraflex, or heard anything about it. I've heard it's a bit loud.
Yes. Driveshaft length will probably change and the 241OR does not need a SYE.
The Mepco/Teraflex 4:1 requires some break-in time to quiet down. Other then that there are no real issues.
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I talked it over with a shop, a rubi case set up would be about $2100-2300. I could for $1500-1600 do a terra low kit which would allow me to keep my SYE and drive shaft and save a few bucks. According to them, the tera low kit is robust and very effective with increased noise in 4low as its only real drawback. Anyone have any opinions on the teralow kit?
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The main drawback seems to be you have to be careful not to over rev the Tera Low. They can get damaged otherwise.
It's better not to go too low with an automatic transmission. I would recommend getting an Atlas with 3:1. A local Jeep with 4.88 gears, automatic transmission, stock NP231, and 35s could crawl really well, so I can't imagine needing to go much lower.
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the rubi already has an sye, you can probably negotiate to get the d/s with the t-case if you get it from a j/y but i'm not sure about the length though (might come to be different in your Jeep, pretty sure it will actually). on the other hand since you have an auto do you really need a 4:1? I mean wouldn't the t/c take care of that if you put it in 1st (i don't think it locks in 1st or 2nd, i might be wrong but if it doesn't lock i don't see why you need a 4:1 to be honest)
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the rubi already has an sye, you can probably negotiate to get the d/s with the t-case if you get it from a j/y but i'm not sure about the length though (might come to be different in your Jeep, pretty sure it will actually). on the other hand since you have an auto do you really need a 4:1? I mean wouldn't the t/c take care of that if you put it in 1st (i don't think it locks in 1st or 2nd, i might be wrong but if it doesn't lock i don't see why you need a 4:1 to be honest)
I just talked to my buddy about this, and I think I'm going to hold off just now on the rubi case. The set up is possible with my transmission and would run me about 2k. He feels I don't really need it given my 4.56 gears. Rubicons did come with autos, however. Currently, I don't really have that "idle/crawl" ability, i end up having to gas up most obstacles. I do still plan to swap the diesel in this spring, so I am holding off on the 4:1 until i see how the diesel acts off road. My buddy felt that I may be geared so low now if I pair with the rubi case that I would be constantly shifting from 4lo to 4hi while on the trail, as staying in 4lo would cause me to rev too high as I moved on the flat spots between obstacles. He also felt hill climbs would be difficult in 4lo as well.
Here are some pics of the carnage. Seems like the case exploded, the chain is off the gears as well, but intact.
(http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/domeslacker/IMG_1330_zps92ad3d1a.jpg)
(http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/domeslacker/IMG_1331_zps73b80e30.jpg)
(http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww339/domeslacker/IMG_1333_zps6b9dd1da.jpg)
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Does the front driveshaft telescope properly? Looks like it punched the hole in the transfer case.
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Does the front driveshaft telescope properly? Looks like it punched the hole in the transfer case.
i was thinking the same - looks like somehow the front pushed into the yoke (but the splines should take care of that). or maybe a problem with the CV joint (somehow locked in a position and not allow to angle, what might crack the t-case and maybe explain the knocking). Strange, the only other thing i can think of is if there was wear on one of the shafts or a blown bearing so that the chain climbed the gear teeth, or maybe what Bounty said that was stretched but i don't know if it can be that much longer to go over.
I think a little investigation on the d/s is warranted to make sure it's safe.
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With the case damaged, you would need a new case first before you could do the Tera Low, that will add more cost to that option.
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I've got extra rear case halves if you decide on the Tera Low.
Sharp, the chain jumping on the sprockets is pretty common with a stretched chain, usually sounds like somebody hitting the bottom of the tub with a hammer when in 4wd.
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I've got extra rear case halves if you decide on the Tera Low.
Sharp, the chain jumping on the sprockets is pretty common with a stretched chain, usually sounds like somebody hitting the bottom of the tub with a hammer when in 4wd.
I think i'm gonna pass on the tera low, i've been reading some bad stuff about them. I figure if i do a get a low case, i may as well throw in a Rubi. Now, what i'd like to figure is if the rubi case would actually be too low for my current application: 3spd auto, 4.56 gears and 33s and for my future application which would be a diesel.
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I talked it over with a shop, a rubi case set up would be about $2100-2300. I could for $1500-1600 do a terra low kit which would allow me to keep my SYE and drive shaft and save a few bucks. According to them, the tera low kit is robust and very effective with increased noise in 4low as its only real drawback. Anyone have any opinions on the teralow kit?
If you go to a 4:1 transfercase do yourself a favor and skip the terralo you will be glad you did in the long run. Rubi case or an Atlas is the ticket. Rubi case is an excellent choice oh yeah your knocking noise was the front CV joint. In mud and water country you want to check those regularly since you cannot grease the stock one and once it gets hot it welds itself together and breaks the transfercase.
It a not all that uncommon problem.
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It's been my experience around here that 4:1 in the t-case is too low for most trail riding. I see too many jeepers have difficulty finding a tall enough gear for loose or muddy hills, or any obstacle that requires throttle. I find 2.72:1 and proper axle gearing much more effective.
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It's been my experience around here that 4:1 in the t-case is too low for most trail riding. I see too many jeepers have difficulty finding a tall enough gear for loose or muddy hills, or any obstacle that requires throttle. I find 2.72:1 and proper axle gearing much more effective.
What kind of terrain do you have out by you, Bounty? I'm in CT, northeast is basically rock, muddy trails and hill climbs that can be pretty slippery. I want the best set up and it seems that my buddy was backing your argument. I have to keep in mind that the diesel will have a ton of low end torque, so if i pair it to the Rubi case, it may end up being too low.
If i understand correctly, the issue will be muddy hill climbs, correct? In 4 low with a rubi, i won't be able to spin the tires enough to get traction, but if the hill is rocky on the other hand, ill be able to idle up...
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What kind of terrain do you have out by you, Bounty? I'm in CT, northeast is basically rock, muddy trails and hill climbs that can be pretty slippery. I want the best set up and it seems that my buddy was backing your argument. I have to keep in mind that the diesel will have a ton of low end torque, so if i pair it to the Rubi case, it may end up being too low.
If i understand correctly, the issue will be muddy hill climbs, correct? In 4 low with a rubi, i won't be able to spin the tires enough to get traction, but if the hill is rocky on the other hand, ill be able to idle up...
The problem with going too low is that you lose your torque multiplication when you go over your stall speed. If you need any sort of speed then you'll be SOL.
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the issue in your case I think is the auto transmission not the future diesel, the VW TDI is not that low-rev, it's actually (if my memory serves me well) going up to 5000 or close to that, i drove 2 vehicles with that motor (a Golf and a Seat "something" can't remember) and was revving like a champ. With a manual transmission i found 2.73 to be too long when climbing slowly over rocks (meaning i had to slip the clutch to keep it from going too low in revs), i don't think you'd have that issue with the auto, but i never drove a Jeep with anything other than a stick so i don't know for sure what the auto is like, just guessing. Hillclimbs are fine with the 2.73 to be honest (from my experience, nothing too extreme though).
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If you go to a 4:1 transfercase do yourself a favor and skip the terralo you will be glad you did in the long run. Rubi case or an Atlas is the ticket. Rubi case is an excellent choice oh yeah your knocking noise was the front CV joint. In mud and water country you want to check those regularly since you cannot grease the stock one and once it gets hot it welds itself together and breaks the transfercase.
It a not all that uncommon problem.
Could he of just pulled the front driveshaft and ran like that until he fixed the CV joint?
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First off, wow - sorry. How many miles was the ploding at?
The 241OR 4:1 and the NV3550 4:1 1st is amazing to slow crawl in and idle over crap - but it's slowwwwwww in most every gear, tops at 15-20 in 5th which feels to dangerous to me to drive at. So I either bog in 4H depending on 1st 4:1 or have to go slow in 4L. Maybe if I wasn't -10% under stock speed at the axles, 4L wouldn't be as bad.
My only other experience was with the stock setup on my 95YJ and AX5 with NP231 and +12% over stock speed from the 31" BFG KM2s. The 4L made it adequate in the dirt and climbing, but still had no crawling ability, but could maintain speed easier.
Tom Woods may be a point of contact for advice too. I've heard their name a few times and my Rubi came with one after the prev owner twisted up the stock one.
My own opinion would be set a course for the finished product. If you want to do the disel or hemi swap you had mentioned, plan that out and find another NP231 to rebuild or just chuck under your ride or park it and complete the swap now. I know I'd get stuck on these milestones and spend double to do it over, and over, and over like my shocks until I finally got the ones I had wanted to begin with, which in turn wasted time and money. I'd probably get it back running on the cheap then map out my dream and make the action plan. I'll shut up know before Jeffy charges me by the letter.
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4:1 low and 5th is the same as high and 1st gear with the NV3550 (3.93 for 1st and 0.97 in 5th or something like that), i'm not saying you should drive around in 5th and low but if you really wanted more speed you could go in 3rd or 4th for a short distance, if that's not working go 1st and high.
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if you have mud i would stay away from 4:1. the rubi t-case is very nice for the rocks but gets winded in lose hills and mud. just my $0.02
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What kind of terrain do you have out by you, Bounty? I'm in CT, northeast is basically rock, muddy trails and hill climbs that can be pretty slippery. I want the best set up and it seems that my buddy was backing your argument. I have to keep in mind that the diesel will have a ton of low end torque, so if i pair it to the Rubi case, it may end up being too low.
If i understand correctly, the issue will be muddy hill climbs, correct? In 4 low with a rubi, i won't be able to spin the tires enough to get traction, but if the hill is rocky on the other hand, ill be able to idle up...
I'm in the Midwest, so lots of dirt trails, mud and hills. Some rocky terrain as you get further southwest into the MO Ozarks. I don't crawl enough large rock to justify 4:1, but when I do it seems the 5.38 in the axles isn't quite low enough. But its ideal for all other wheeling.
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the issue in your case I think is the auto transmission not the future diesel, the VW TDI is not that low-rev, it's actually (if my memory serves me well) going up to 5000 or close to that, i drove 2 vehicles with that motor (a Golf and a Seat "something" can't remember) and was revving like a champ.
THe engine won't be completely stock. I'm getting the chip and tune kit from HPA Motorsports which will result in nearly 300ft lbs torque, higher HP, and a ton of the torque being brought in at very low RPMs. I figure, compared to my 2.5l, that TDI will be putting out more torque at crawl speeds.
Guys, please remember i only have a 3spd auto..so I can't shift around like you guys in the 5spds can, I take it that would hurt me even more if I got the rubi case.
Bounty, seems like we have just about the same kind of terrain. We def have our rocky parts but it's not the Moab or Rubicon trail. I just want a good all around set up that will allow me to wheel a variety of areas. Since the end goal is an expedition type vehicle, i Plan on taking her cross country to various parks, is a Rubicon t-case def needed for places out west?
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Guys, please remember i only have a 3spd auto..so I can't shift around like you guys in the 5spds can, I take it that would hurt me even more if I got the rubi case.
my thought too, you don't need/want a 4:1 with the auto
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Could he of just pulled the front driveshaft and ran like that until he fixed the CV joint?
Yup would have saved a lot of coin and work
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THe engine won't be completely stock. I'm getting the chip and tune kit from HPA Motorsports which will result in nearly 300ft lbs torque, higher HP, and a ton of the torque being brought in at very low RPMs. I figure, compared to my 2.5l, that TDI will be putting out more torque at crawl speeds.
Guys, please remember i only have a 3spd auto..so I can't shift around like you guys in the 5spds can, I take it that would hurt me even more if I got the rubi case.
Bounty, seems like we have just about the same kind of terrain. We def have our rocky parts but it's not the Moab or Rubicon trail. I just want a good all around set up that will allow me to wheel a variety of areas. Since the end goal is an expedition type vehicle, i Plan on taking her cross country to various parks, is a Rubicon t-case def needed for places out west?
You don't need 4:1 for an expedition type vehicle. I think you will be happier overall with the stock ratio or at most 3:1.
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Yup would have saved a lot of coin and work
yeah, happened so quick, I misdiagnosed the issue, figured it may have been a loose CA, then I tightened them up and still heard it and figured it was the hub...then it happened :wall:
lesson learned.
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yeah, happened so quick, I misdiagnosed the issue, figured it may have been a loose CA, then I tightened them up and still heard it and figured it was the hub...then it happened :wall:
lesson learned.
Water under the bridge. Now, time for upgrades :fya: