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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: jfrabat on November 25, 2013, 10:55:47 AM
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As usual, fix something on the Jeep, and 3 more things pop up... I now got the radios (CB and 2m) tuned and running (plus, I re-installed the linear amplifier for the CB), but now I have a couple of issues going on. Oil pressure gauge is showing pressure pegged (AGAIN! I am TIRED of changing this sensor!!!), water temperature gauge is fluctuating, and I got a CEl (code 23).
I am pretty sure the oil pressure is the sensor (has done it about a gazillion times). The code 23 I think is the air temp sensor gone bad (this is the first time it does this, though). The water temp could also be the sensor, but not 100% sure on that one. Anyway, I am just rating. So far, except for the gauges showin whacked numbers and teh CEL being on, the jeep is running just fine...
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I'm not sure if the 94 is the same but I had a similar issue with my 87, oil pressure was either pegged or not working at all, temp would fluctuate and the amps would always read low even after replacing the alternator , oil sender and temp switch. What I did was remove the gauge cluster then remove the brass nut that connected each respective gauge to the ribbon on the back, cleaned all the contact areas with fine grit sandpaper wrapped around a pencil eraser til it shines then apply an oxide inhibitor and reassemble. All the gauges worked a lot better. The temp doesn't fluctuate, the amps are where they should be and the oil gauge has worked as it should. Hope this helps!
Al
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Where exactly is this connector? I think I will give this a shot! After all, it jsut takes a little elbow grease! Defenetly cheaper than replacing even more sensors! And, since my votlage is always showing lower than it should (especially when I turn on the high speed on the AC), it seems I DO have the same symptoms!
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my guess was also a bad connection, for the oil pressure unless you get a mechanical gauge it won't be accurate (or maybe if you go with an expensive one). Autometer pro-comp mech oil pressure gauges are fairly priced and very accurate, I wouldn't run anything else.
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I have to pull my cluster out to replace a couple of bulbs tonight I'll try to post a couple of pictures tonight. If you pull your cluster out and look at the back side where the ribbon connects to all of the gauges the re is a black plastic piece with a stud that had a brass nut on it, remove the stud and gently pry the black plastic piece up and remove it, you will see the copper contact areas on the ribbon and the plastic piece clean them all (mine had turned green from corrosion in a couple of places) then use an electrical oxide inhibitor to keep it from corroding again. Be careful when you reassemble everything, the stud is what holds your gauge in place, if it pushes in to far you will have to take the lens off to get back in place. It gives a little piece of mind when your gauges act as they should.
Al
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Here's the video of the temp gauge...
http://www.youtube.com/v/4nN_ie6kBcI
Sorry, but I could not get it to show on preview...
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That's pretty much how my oil gauge was acting but it would peg out the drop back down.
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I'd suspect the sender for the oil gauge. Check the connector for the temp. It's just behind #4 on the head, pointing up. Should be one wire, IIRC.
If you're creative you could take the stock gauge out of the cluster and see if you can get a regular gauge to fit with some cutting and gluing. Otherwise make a bracket and then replace all of the gauges with some decent ones with new senders. The PCM doesn't get a signal from that temp sensor. I don't think the oil pressure gauge is connected either but check a FSM.
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I have always wanted to change the gauges to Autometer ones, but that's expensive, so for the time being, they are staying stock...
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I have always wanted to change the gauges to Autometer ones, but that's expensive, so for the time being, they are staying stock...
actually they're cheap (you'd be surprised). the digital/full sweep ones are expensive, the mechanical and short sweep are reasonable.
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actually they're cheap (you'd be surprised). the digital/full sweep ones are expensive, the mechanical and short sweep are reasonable.
Well, yes and no... You see, I have to do things right. So, to do it right, you need the dash panels:
driver (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-15220?seid=srese1&gclid=CJPkqqD0gLsCFTEV7Aod6j4ALg) $58.97
center (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-15218?seid=srese1&gclid=COfoqp_0gLsCFSEV7AodvmkArw) $58.97
Then you need the gauges (and, again, I REALLY like their Phantom gauges, which is what I would use!):
Speedometer (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5887) $207.97
Tachometer (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5897) 124.97
Fuel (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5714/overview/) $48.97 (not sure this is the right one)
Water Temp (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5737/overview/) $54.97
Oil Pressure (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5727/overview/) $69.97
Volt Meter (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5791/overview/) $49.97
Wide Band Air/Fuel Ratio (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5770/overview/) $243.97
That totals $918.73 and it does not even include the shipping and importing to Panama... Even if I leave out the wideband and replace it with a clock (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-5785/overview/) (which goes for $72.97), it still comes out to $747.73. That's expensive for me...
Again, I know what you mean; if you replace just one, it is not that bad, but IF I were to do it, I would do it right or not do it at all. And that means dropping another $1K into my Jeep for something that is not really needed at this time...
Felipe
EDIT: Looks like the Phantom II are the ones that change color; those are the ones I am looking for... And those are a bit more expensive!
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i wouldn't recommend the speedo/tach part since you'll need to do way more than just installing the 2 in the dash, for the gauge cluster in the pro-comp line (EDIT: I meant sport-comp and not pro-comp, phantom is nice but you're right you would need the speedo/tach to match)
Fuel Level - $50
Water Temp - $55
Oil Pressure (Mechanical #3321) - $56
Voltmeter - $47
and you need to add one as the cluster has 5 spots (the 5th one in the Jeep is the 4wd indicator) - a good choice would be Vacuum #3384 at $55 (which is for the manifold air pressure, great tool to understand the load on the engine, airplanes have this as a standard instrument), Compressor Air Pressure, Fuel Pressure or AFR
EDIT: what i mean by the speedo/tach is that you'll need to fab the center part with all the indicator lights, they are part of the same unit in the stock form.
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To Get a good oil pressure sender I needed to buy a factory one. Fixed mine a couple of years ago and still good.
Temp sender look at the connection at the head like was said look for Corrosion or busted connection at the sending unit. They break way to easy.
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As promised
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As promised! Remove this black piece and clean all the contact points to a bright copper coat with inhibitor and re assemble
Sorry for the double post
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This is what it looks like with the piece removed and contacts cleaned up
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I think I will start with the cleaning of the contact points. If that does not work, I will move on to new sensors, but for now, I am staying off the gauges. I rather spend that money on the rear wheel disc brakes, which at least would fix my e-brake woes!
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Yeah that was my thoughts when I did mine. Let us know if it works for you.
Al
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Any updates?
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Any updates?
Its a long weekend here, so I am at the beach with the family... Next weekend is mothers day, so I doubt I,ll get to it before mid january...
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I don't blame you there. The only reason I worked on mine this weekend was the wife and kids were doing the Black Friday sales.
Al
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Its a long weekend here, so I am at the beach with the family... Next weekend is mothers day, so I doubt I,ll get to it before mid january...
Well, I just proved myself wrong. I did manage to get some (very little, but SOME) work done today on the Jeep after getting back from the beach. I just replaced my air temp sensonr, and I THINK I found the issue for the CEL light coming on! Check out the pic below:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XK5gTl4ZwL8/Up0ORuXGkMI/AAAAAAAACRU/EgA4SZxtFR4/w1579-h888-no/DSC_0404.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BEk7VdiOHoI/Up0OXzdxsFI/AAAAAAAACRg/rM7sTpFHfO4/w1579-h888-no/DSC_0405.jpg)
Can anyone point out the missing part?
PS: This is the first time I post photos of my Google account instead of Photobucket; seems to work OK, right?
Felipe
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the probe is gone
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the probe is gone
Yup. I just hope it has not damaged anything in the engine...
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I'll try to get the contacts cleaned up this weekend (provided that the wive does not force me to go shopping!), and maybe even change the 2 sensors left to change (water temp and oil pressure). If I do this, then only the air leak will be pending to have the Jeep ready for a trip that is planned for late december!
But one question; yesterday, I took the Jeep out for a drive, and the Jeep was pulling to the left, but when I braked, it pulled sharply to the right. I figured a stock brake caliper, and, after I parked for a while, the issue just wnet away, further reinforcing my previous theory. My question now, though, is this: should I look deeper into this issue, or just forget about it?
Considering that people here are regularly crazy when they drive, but become even WORSE during Xmas season, the Jeep will be my daily driver until December 25th! - No sense in scratching the beamer because some idiot was too much in a hurry to shop!
Felipe
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replace the calipers, sounds like the driver's side. You can tell by how hot the rims are once it starts doing it.
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replace the calipers, sounds like the driver's side. You can tell by how hot the rims are once it starts doing it.
Should I improve the braking while I am at it? I only know of the vanco big brake system, but not sure if it is worth it... I think I rather do the rear disc brakes (that way I get back my e-brake!!!) before doing the front. So I may just look for stock sized ones. I wonder if any good brands (brembo or something like it) makes calipers for the Jeep (doubt it, though).
EDIT: Well, i just saw that Wilwood has a big brake kit for the YJ (needs an early YJ spindle), but it required 18" wheels and it's $1,700+, so THAT's not happening...
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Should I improve the braking while I am at it? I only know of the vanco big brake system, but not sure if it is worth it... I think I rather do the rear disc brakes (that way I get back my e-brake!!!) before doing the front. So I may just look for stock sized ones. I wonder if any good brands (brembo or something like it) makes calipers for the Jeep (doubt it, though).
EDIT: Well, i just saw that Wilwood has a big brake kit for the YJ (needs an early YJ spindle), but it required 18" wheels and it's $1,700+, so THAT's not happening...
Actually it requires a minimum of 16" wheel which isn't bad at all.
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Should I improve the braking while I am at it? I only know of the vanco big brake system, but not sure if it is worth it... I think I rather do the rear disc brakes (that way I get back my e-brake!!!) before doing the front. So I may just look for stock sized ones. I wonder if any good brands (brembo or something like it) makes calipers for the Jeep (doubt it, though).
EDIT: Well, i just saw that Wilwood has a big brake kit for the YJ (needs an early YJ spindle), but it required 18" wheels and it's $1,700+, so THAT's not happening...
dual diaph brake booster (i believe you have that)
Explorer Sport Trac rotors (same as Vanco kit) - they are gigantic
Akebono Jeep GC WJ brake calipers semi-loaded w/ mounting bracket (Centric ones are about $50 each reman at Amazon) - might present clearance issues depending of the rims you have, you can grind off some of the backside as the calipers are really thick.
Semi-Metallic brake pads
Jeep GC WJ knuckles
Lower balljoints (from WJ, p/n K, RK, AXK or MK3185)
1/4'' JKS bearing spacers MIG welded to the knuckles.
you need to custom make the steering tie-rod and draglink. you can flip the tie-rod for more clearance and less chance of hitting it on a rock. Comes to be a lot cheaper than Vanco but extremely involved process (not direct swap).
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dual diaph brake booster (i believe you have that)
Explorer Sport Trac rotors (same as Vanco kit) - they are gigantic
Akebono Jeep GC WJ brake calipers semi-loaded w/ mounting bracket (Centric ones are about $50 each reman at Amazon) - might present clearance issues depending of the rims you have, you can grind off some of the backside as the calipers are really thick.
Semi-Metallic brake pads
Jeep GC WJ knuckles
Lower balljoints (from WJ, p/n K, RK, AXK or MK3185)
1/4'' JKS bearing spacers MIG welded to the knuckles.
you need to custom make the steering tie-rod and draglink. you can flip the tie-rod for more clearance and less chance of hitting it on a rock. Comes to be a lot cheaper than Vanco but extremely involved process (not direct swap).
I think I will just leave the ones I have on (replace them with stockers, which run about $20 to $30), and save my money for the rear disc conversion... I actually like the rear dis conversion for several factors:
1. I get to use my e-brake again (right now, it "sort" of works if the jeep is pointing downhill, but they have absolutely no holding power to keep the Jeep from rolling backwards)
2. They will not get filled with mud (less maintenance)
3. If I ever break an axle, at least the wheel will take a bit longer to come off the axle tube, as it will be held in place by the brakes (not that it will hold for long, but at least I think I can limp out of a mud hole!)
I was just wondering if there was a better option other than spending a ton of money. Actually, my brakes are not that bad as they are with the hydroboost (I no longer have the dual diaphragm booster; I swaped that out for the hydroboost from an Econovan).
Felipe
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you're not going to get better braking with the rear discs though, it's a good upgrade for the other reasons you mentioned. Make sure you get the proper prop valve.
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you're not going to get better braking with the rear discs though, it's a good upgrade for the other reasons you mentioned. Make sure you get the proper prop valve.
But to be honest, I can already lock my tires up as it is, so I dont mind keeping the same braking...
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OK, got a bit of work in today... I swapped out the engine water temp sensor. Also, I took out the gauge cluster and cleaned all the contacts. To be honest, it did not look that bad, but I did it anyway, since they were already out. There WAS a BIT of corrosion where the plug attaches to the film, but nothing to write home about (honestly speaking, I doubt that was an issue, but I cleaned it up anyway). Now I got a working temp gauge, and it's pretty solid (not wiggly like the video!).
I also looked at the lockers for any leaks. i did find some leaks where the hoses go into the compressor (slight leaks, nothing big), so I fixed that. There is still a leak somewhere, but I could not find it, but now, the compressor comes on about once every 10 minutes or so, so it's not that bad: however, that is with the Jeep sitting; I have yet to try the lockers on while the Jeep is rolling (got to find a dirt road somewhere near to try that one). Since I alrady changed the air temp sensor, the only sensor pending a swap is the oil pressure sensor, but I was already late for a family gathering (my wife's family, so even more demand placed on meeting the scheduled time!). I also have to install the Flex-a-lite fan controller; I am currently running the fan permanently through the relay), as my DC Control box went south some months ago... I got the other one sitting there, but I have not yet installed it.
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You can put it on jack stands to test it, turn the left wheel the right one on same axle will turn opposite direction, engage locker and they turn same direction. engage other locker and all 4 wheels turn same direction.
Dave
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You can put it on jack stands to test it, turn the left wheel the right one on same axle will turn opposite direction, engage locker and they turn same direction. engage other locker and all 4 wheels turn same direction.
Dave
Ill try that next tome...
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you can just lift 1 wheel, with the tcase in neutral you'd be able to rotate the tire when locker disengaged, won't rotate with locker engaged, same for front and rear.
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you can just lift 1 wheel, with the tcase in neutral you'd be able to rotate the tire when locker disengaged, won't rotate with locker engaged, same for front and rear.
I like the idea of lifting the Jeep because I can even put the jeep in gear and have rotate the steering wheel while the wheels are turning; this is ussually when there is a leak in the field...
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I like the idea of lifting the Jeep because I can even put the jeep in gear and have rotate the steering wheel while the wheels are turning; this is ussually when there is a leak in the field...
hmm - I can't see why you'd have a leak when you turn the wheels and not one when your wheels are straight, the pumpkin/diff won't be affected by the position of the knuckles. It could be that it disengages when you have different travel left and right but that you won't figure out with no load or by hand (and for that matter would be better with 1 wheel on the ground anyway if you understand what i mean), it's probably the air pressure that is applied (or lack thereof) in the diff on the locking ring or somehow that is not engaging fully and it skips whenever there's difference in rotational travel between spider gears (wheel travel on turn due to different radius on the turn).
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Well, in the video, you can clearly see the wheels locking up when the steering is straight...
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Well, in the video, you can clearly see the wheels locking up when the steering is straight...
do they unlock with the wheels turned? keep in mind that in order to lock you need to stop spinning the wheels, it's like when you don't press the clutch and you can't shift into gear, if one wheel is spinning and one is stopped it won't engage.
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While its a really bad idea, I have engaged mine with a wheel spinning, to stop from sliding off a hill.. it was surprisingly painless..
Arb's DONT unlock when turning. Most common leak after fittings is the O-rings in the diff.
I typically run with the rear lock on and only engage the front when I get rear wheel spin..
Makes it easier steering..
Dave
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While its a really bad idea, I have engaged mine with a wheel spinning, to stop from sliding off a hill.. it was surprisingly painless..
yeah, well that doesn't surprise me :wall:
or was the adrenaline painting the picture (or maybe some other awarness enhancing factors :lol:)
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I also have engaged when rolling, but before I get wheel spin... Anyway, I will have to lift the Jeep off the ground, put it in gear, and engage them. Then I'll know, I guess!
By the way, the water temp is issue has started again, so it was not the sensor nor the contacts... Could be the gauge itself. I guess I should probably also make sure I have enough coolant... :wall: (I did check that a couple of weeks ago when it started and it was OK, but better to recheck).
There is a wheeling trip between Xmas and New Years' Eve, and I want to go, so I better get going on this and have the Jeep ready before then!
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yeah, well that doesn't surprise me :wall:
or was the adrenaline painting the picture (or maybe some other awarness enhancing factors :lol:)
Sliding slowly back ward with wheels spinning headed to 10' drop off. Hit the lockers (Both at once and they went right in no noise or anythjjng and pulled me right up the hill. Happy as hell at that point.. LOL I expected the sound you get when you forgot to put the hubs in and try and shift into 4wd on the highway..
Cheers
Dave
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This water temp issue is really driving me nuts! Any other ideas as to what may be causing it? It is not the sensor, as I replaced it with a new MOPAR one... And it's not the contacts of the gauge, as I cleaned those out. I did notice that when the mechanic replaced the thermostat, he did not use a gasket but rather some type of silicone (RTV or whatever).
There is no leaking, but I am starting to suspect that there may be some water flow issues in the housing that's causing the sensor to misread. I suspect this even more, in fact, when I think back to when I replaced the sensor, as very little coolant came out of that hole (I did not drain the radiator; I figured I could plug the hole with my thumb and get the sensor in there before much coolant dripped out, but not much actually came out in the first place, contrary to what I would have thought). Could this be a cause? I DO have another thermostat with the gasket in the Jeep, so I could replace it...
Anyway, any ideas are greatly welcome!
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water won't come out if you have the radiator cap on, if you take the cap off it will start leaking until the level in the rad comes down to the level of the hole.
what does it exactly behave like (the gauge)?
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water won't come out if you have the radiator cap on, if you take the cap off it will start leaking until the level in the rad comes down to the level of the hole.
what does it exactly behave like (the gauge)?
Two things are happening, and they alternate. One is that the gauge will not even reach the first mark past 100* in the dial, and will stay there. The other, the gauge will oscillate between about 160 and 180* as in the video I attached.
http://www.youtube.com/v/4nN_ie6kBcI
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Two things are happening, and they alternate. One is that the gauge will not even reach the first mark past 100* in the dial, and will stay there. The other, the gauge will oscillate between about 160 and 180* as in the video I attached.
I'm checking the FSM to see if i can find the ohm values for the coolant temp sensor - I'll come up with a way to test this.
EDIT:
get a 1 to 2 kohm resistor, put one end to ground and the other stick it into the temp sender connector (after unplugging it from the sensor), see if it does the same, if it doesnt then it's the sender or the harness at the sender (terminal, wire, crimping, corrosion,etc), if it does then it's the harness and/or circuit to the gauge or the gauge itself. At 1kohm should display about 190F at 2kohm should be about 150, idea is to have something that you know it wont vary at all and see if you still get the problem.
of course best to do this with the engine started so you get the vibrations. You work for Sony so most likely you're wiring savvy and probably understand what i meant above.
the other thing you can do is to measure the coolant sensor resistivity (ohm) with the engine running, see if it varies like the gauge does, if it is then it's the sender.
This is not a thermostat issue, it will not vary like that up/down 30F at a rate of 2 or 3 times/second.
EDIT2:
your oil pressure is also wrong unless the engine was cold.
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EDIT2:
your oil pressure is also wrong unless the engine was cold.
Yeah, but usually that gets fixed with the oil pressure sensor change (I have it, I just haven't replaced it yet). But I think it is also unusual that I need to change that out at least once a year!
By the way, I work in MARKETING! So no, I am not electronically savvy AT ALL! But I think I understand what you mean. I'll try it with my multimeter and see if I can read the resistance. But I doubt it's the sensor; it would be much too odd to have 2 sensors acting the exact same way... (I just replaced it a week and a half ago and it's still doing the same thing).
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Yeah, but usually that gets fixed with the oil pressure sensor change (I have it, I just haven't replaced it yet). But I think it is also unusual that I need to change that out at least once a year!
By the way, I work in MARKETING! So no, I am not electronically savvy AT ALL! But I think I understand what you mean. I'll try it with my multimeter and see if I can read the resistance. But I doubt it's the sensor; it would be much too odd to have 2 sensors acting the exact same way... (I just replaced it a week and a half ago and it's still doing the same thing).
well, then should be from the plastic piece on the sensor and up to the gauge, only thing is to determine where. Stick a needle in the wire and put the multimeter on it (needle would be best) to ground and measure resistance - unplug the connector in the gauge cluster when you do this, if it does the same then it's either the crimping/connector or the sender.
If it doesn't do it then go to the connector that goes to the cluster and do the same for the wire that goes to the sender (still unplugged from the cluster) and see if you get the behavior there - if you do it's the harness, if you don't it's the connector to the cluster or the cluster itself (the gauge).
also, if you have a piece of harness with the connector you can plug that in the sender and test the same, if you're clear cut and solder that piece.
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Well Mopar doesn't make sensors they are outsourced. Have you put a thermometer into the radiator to get a temp? Maybe get a cap with the temp gauge on it.
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Maybe get a cap with the temp gauge on it.
Can't say I have seen those before... To be honest, I never know they existed!
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Well Mopar doesn't make sensors they are outsourced. Have you put a thermometer into the radiator to get a temp? Maybe get a cap with the temp gauge on it.
at 150F the temp in the rad would be lot less (the thermostat won't be open).
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The thermostat IS opening, so THAT is not the problem (I turned the Jeep on without the cap and let it get to operating temperature, and you can see the coolant flowing when the thermostat opens); my doubt is that if he used silicone, maybe some of it is interfering with the flow of coolant to the sensor, and that is what is causing problems. Or maybe the water pump is dying on me, who knows...
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The thermostat IS opening, so THAT is not the problem (I turned the Jeep on without the cap and let it get to operating temperature, and you can see the coolant flowing when the thermostat opens); my doubt is that if he used silicone, maybe some of it is interfering with the flow of coolant to the sensor, and that is what is causing problems. Or maybe the water pump is dying on me, who knows...
I think that's a bit of a stretch.
BTW; the sender for the gauge is not the one at the thermostart.
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Jeffy is correct, the gauge sender is close to the firewall in the cyl head, so if you replaced the one in the thermostat that's the one for the pcm.
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Have to agree since I busted the back one and it took a bit for me to figure out it was the one for the Gauge.
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Oh REALLY! Well, that explains A LOT!!!! OK, where is the sender for the gauge exactly? And is there a part number?
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Oh REALLY! Well, that explains A LOT!!!! OK, where is the sender for the gauge exactly? And is there a part number?
driver's side on cyl head towards the firewall close to the valve cover, you can't miss it, only thing with a wire in it in the cyl head
EDIT:
you can see it in this picture, top left of cyl head as the picture is taken - yours will look different as mine is autometer, stock has a connector going to it.
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/sharpxmen/Jeep_Cyl_Head/42_Roller_Rockers_Install_2_zpsf82cb657.jpg)
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OK, I will order it then...
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Have to add that little sucker is very easy to break.
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check to make sure the connector has a good connection on that temp sensor. mine had a weak connection and would move around causing the gauge to bounce similar to yours. took a small screwdriver and bent out the metal tab in the plug to make a better connection and solved the issue.
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Yeah, I'd check the connector first. Those can break because of all the heat cycles.
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You guys were right; temp sensor was just a bad connection. I am glad I changed the ECU sensor as well, though, as now the mpg's are rising once more (seems the old sensor was keeping it in open loop longer or something!). I will still change the gauge's sending unit just to be sure, but for now, only the oil pressure sending unit is pending! YEAY!!!