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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: jfrabat on September 17, 2007, 04:04:51 PM
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First of all, I apologize for being a pain in the (*&% in these past few days, posting SOOOOO many questions, but I managed to get some doe for the Jeep budget, and I want to get working as good as I can...
So, I decided to spend some money on brakes, mainly beause I almost got into a car accident on the highway last week when the car in front of me stopped suddenly, and I could not get to stop fast even though I slammed on the brakes. The thing is that if I slam my brakes down, the tires are not stopped completely; they just slow down in a non efficient way. Now I know that lockeing the tires is a no-no (no control), but it just seems to me that if I slam on the brakes, that's what's suppossed to happen (considering my '94 YJ does not have ABS). So for my tastes, the rig takes too long to stop in case of an emergency.
So, I was going to have the brakes looked at, but I was wondering if there are any suggestions... Honestly speaking, I am currently planning on taking the mighty YJ to the nearest place (I think it's tire kingdom) and getting the work done for me, as I have never done a break job, but what do you guys think? Should I do this job myself? Is it too difficult? And which break pads would you recommend? I may even take advantage that I am taking the brakes off and install new brake lines to replace those rubber hoses that I got on the front with some stronger lines... Maybe these? http://www.quadratec.com/products/12706_32X_PG.htm
What about brake pads? Any recommended brands?
And what do I need to do for the rear brakes?
Felipe
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Doing your own brake maintenance is fairly easy. I'd say it's easier then changing the oil.
I'd highly recommend checking your brake pads and shoes. The fronts are east to see how much material is that and how close they are to the disc. The rears will require taking the wheel off. Then make sure the E-brake is off. Then you take the drum off. Well actually you can feel how much play there is between the shoes and the drum. Once the drum is off you can inspect the shoes. More then likely the adjusters are fouled up and not working properly. When you back up hard adn break, it should adjust the shoes. If this hasn't been done in a long time, if ever then you'll need to manually adjust them so they are close to where the shoes rub against the drums.
Depending on how many miles you have on your brakes, you might get away with just adjusting them. The next step would be replacing the shoes. Going to some performance brake pads can make a huge difference. Hawk are popular. Bewarned that better brakes usually means they will wear out faster then harder brakes.
If you check the run out on the drums and discs and they are either warped or just warn out, it would probably be better to buy new discs or drums then to have them turned. It really depends on what they look like though.
There are several other ways to increase braking. Larger master cylinder is a common one. Either go with a large single or a dual diaphram. Another option is to switch over to ZJ 2 pot front brakes. Then there are slotted and drilled front discs but I'd put these lower on the priority list.
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A double diaphragm master brake booster out of a 4L cherokee would be the best bang for the buck. The 2.5 use a single diaphragm.
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Check your brakes and then use the above suggestion for a brake booster the bigger the tire the longer the stopping distance. Going to 31" tires from stock causes a noticeable decrease in brake performance
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Doing your own brake maintenance is fairly easy. I'd say it's easier then changing the oil.
I think I'll give it a shot myself then! I have the Chilton, Haynes, and Jeep Service Manuals, so I guess if it is not a complicated procedure, I'll take a shot at it myself.
I'd highly recommend checking your brake pads and shoes... More then likely the adjusters are fouled up and not working properly. When you back up hard adn break, it should adjust the shoes. If this hasn't been done in a long time, if ever then you'll need to manually adjust them so they are close to where the shoes rub against the drums.
Depending on how many miles you have on your brakes, you might get away with just adjusting them. The next step would be replacing the shoes. Going to some performance brake pads can make a huge difference. Hawk are popular. Bewarned that better brakes usually means they will wear out faster then harder brakes.
If you check the run out on the drums and discs and they are either warped or just warn out, it would probably be better to buy new discs or drums then to have them turned. It really depends on what they look like though.
For the same cost as getting the brakes done in the shop, I can get the Hawk Performance HPS High Performance Street Disc Brake Pads for 90-06 Jeep Wrangler YJ, the Rear Brake Shoe Set w/ Hardware for 90-00 Jeep Wrangler YJ, and Crown Industrial 5 Layer Custom Extended Brake Lines in Red for 87-95 Jeep Wrangler YJ with 3"-4" Lift from Quadratec, so I think it is a better investment of my money... And I could have enough for new rotors (maybe not crossdrilled and slotted, but you get the point!).
By the way, is the new brake hose something you guys would recommend?
There are several other ways to increase braking. Larger master cylinder is a common one. Either go with a large single or a dual diaphram. Another option is to switch over to ZJ 2 pot front brakes. Then there are slotted and drilled front discs but I'd put these lower on the priority list.
A double diaphragm master brake booster out of a 4L cherokee would be the best bang for the buck. The 2.5 use a single diaphragm.
I thought this was recommended for when you put 4 disc brakes, but not so much when you still have the rear drums. I can do this even with the rear drum brakes?
Check your brakes and then use the above suggestion for a brake booster the bigger the tire the longer the stopping distance. Going to 31" tires from stock causes a noticeable decrease in brake performance
And since I eventually plan on going to 33"s, I need as much stopping power as I an get... If I do swap out my rear axle for the Passport or Rodeo D44, that one comes with disc brakes, and that should help, but in the mean time, I do want my brakes to stop me!
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By the way, this is what I am currently looking to get to do it on my own; any comments?
New Rotors:
http://brakeperformance.com/site/brake_rotors.php?vehicle_type_id=1&vehicle_make_id=9292&vehicle_model_id=9464&vehicle_year_id=9477&vehicle_engine_id=9478&cPath=1_9292_9464_9477_9478_9479&ad=google
New Pads
Hawk pads; which model do you recommend? I am not necessarily getting them from this site, but they seem to have most models available for the YJ...
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/results.jsp?autoMake=Jeep&autoModel=Wrangler&autoYear=1994&autoModClar=&brand=Hawk
New Rear Brake Shoe Set with Hardware
http://www.quadratec.com/products/56216_06.htm
Will I need anything else?
Felipe
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Like Jeffy mentioned, could simply be your rear brakes are out of adjustment (common) and not doing anything to help you stop.
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Like Jeffy mentioned, could simply be your rear brakes are out of adjustment (common) and not doing anything to help you stop.
In that case, should't the front brakes lock up if I slam on the brakes? When I first got the Jeep, I did a complete maintenance (fluid changes, and such) at Firestone Car Center, and the guy told me that the brakes still had some miles in them, but they would need to be replaced soon, so I want to get that done with now that I got some money to do it...
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And since I eventually plan on going to 33"s, I need as much stopping power as I an get... If I do swap out my rear axle for the Passport or Rodeo D44, that one comes with disc brakes, and that should help, but in the mean time, I do want my brakes to stop me!
Make sure you get brake parts cleaner and don't breath the brake shoe dust. :smile:
Also, when my D44 with 11 inch drums was installed, the braking improved a lot, the bigger drums are quite a bit more powerful. They don't grab but can lock up the rears on dry pavement very easily. I'm actually hoping that when I go to bigger tires, the braking will be toned down a bit. I canīt imagine what rear disks would do.
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In that case, should't the front brakes lock up if I slam on the brakes? When I first got the Jeep, I did a complete maintenance (fluid changes, and such) at Firestone Car Center, and the guy told me that the brakes still had some miles in them, but they would need to be replaced soon, so I want to get that done with now that I got some money to do it...
No, because now they're doing 100% of the braking instead of 75-85%
I'd probably go with a bigger booster or a double diaphragm rather then fancy rotors. I'd start with the basics first., maintenance. Then go from there.
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I'd start with the basics first., maintenance. Then go from there.
OK, then, if I understand correctly, I should change the pads and brake shoes, and adjust the rear brake shoes? From there, if the rotors or drums are bent or damaged, change those, and then change the master for something wih a little more ooomph? Any particular masters that you would recommend?
What about special tools? Other than the bleeders, what will I need?
And would you recommend getting the brake lines? I think if I go with a larger booster, I may need them...
Felipe
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Oh, and Jeffy, which Hawk pads do you recommend from these?
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/results.jsp?autoMake=Jeep&autoModel=Wrangler&autoYear=1994&autoModClar=&brand=Hawk
Felipe
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Oh, and Jeffy, which Hawk pads do you recommend from these?
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/results.jsp?autoMake=Jeep&autoModel=Wrangler&autoYear=1994&autoModClar=&brand=Hawk
Felipe
Well, I think that's going to be dependent on $$ and how you drive. I'd maybe go with teh Ceramics since they are lower dust, wear and superior braking. Although you could go with the HPS or the LTS's too. Quadratec's prices for the HPS's are cheaper then Tirerack.
http://www.quadratec.com/products/56214_100.htm
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Quadratec's prices for the HPS's are cheaper then Tirerack.
The ones in Quadratec are not ceramic; those are Ferro-Carbon pads...
In any case, I think I'll go ceramic as well. Slightly better.
So again, if I understand correctly, I should change the pads and brake shoes, and adjust the rear brake shoes? From there, if the rotors or drums are bent or damaged, change those, and then change the master for something wih a little more ooomph? Any particular masters that you would recommend?
What about special tools? Other than the bleeders, what will I need?
And would you recommend getting the brake lines? I think if I go with a larger booster, I may need them...
Felipe
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The ones in Quadratec are not ceramic; those are Ferro-Carbon pads...
In any case, I think I'll go ceramic as well. Slightly better.
So again, if I understand correctly, I should change the pads and brake shoes, and adjust the rear brake shoes? From there, if the rotors or drums are bent or damaged, change those, and then change the master for something wih a little more ooomph? Any particular masters that you would recommend?
What about special tools? Other than the bleeders, what will I need?
And would you recommend getting the brake lines? I think if I go with a larger booster, I may need them...
Felipe
Yes, the HPS's are Carbon Metallics.
For the shoes you will really want to buy a set of brake pliers. They aren't necessary BUT they will save you a lot of time and hardship. I've seen people screw up their hands with screwdrivers while trying to remove the springs. It's just not worth it and is easy with the pliers.
I'd hold off on the brakelines unless you really need them. You do not necessarily need them with a larger booster.
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So then what I need to start with (my initial shopping list, let's call it!) would be:
- Rear Brake Shoes with Hardware (http://www.quadratec.com/products/56216_06.htm)
- Two pairs of Hawk Performance Ceramic Brake Pads (http://www.autoanything.com/brakes/61A2911A0A0A1801790.aspx)
- Brake Spring Pliers (http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/kd298.html)
Then, based on how the rotors and drums are, I could POSSIBLY need:
- Two Rear Brake Drums (http://www.quadratec.com/products/56206_08_07.htm)
- Brake Rotors (http://brakeperformance.com/site/brake_rotors.php?vehicle_type_id=1&vehicle_make_id=9292&vehicle_model_id=9464&vehicle_year_id=9477&vehicle_engine_id=9478&cPath=1_9292_9464_9477_9478_9479&ad=google) - If I am to change them, might as well go for something that's better, right?
And if after testing, I still dont have enough stopping power, then I should look into getting a new brake booster and/or new brake lines.
Other than that, I should be covered with what I have on the Jeep and my normal hand tools, right?
Felipe
PS: Thanks a lot for all the help, by the way! I know I have thrown out a TON of questions, and I appreciate your patience with all the newbee stuff!
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You might want to check this out too...
http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/brakes/xj_wjbrakes03/index.htm
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For an easy brake upgrade, try the booster and MC from a 95 YJ. They used a dual diaphram booster that year. I'd also consider replacing the soft lines right away. My son had a front line blowout in his 90 Comanche last week due to the old rotting hoses.
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For an easy brake upgrade, try the booster and MC from a 95 YJ. They used a dual diaphram booster that year. I'd also consider replacing the soft lines right away. My son had a front line blowout in his 90 Comanche last week due to the old rotting hoses.
You would need to go with a 1995.5. it would be easier to just get one from a TJ.
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If you want a really cheap one, try this:
http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/brakes/yjmc/
The 78 Marquis MC is what I have in my jeep. Works great with the stock booster and costs $13
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If you want a really cheap one, try this:
http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/brakes/yjmc/
The 78 Marquis MC is what I have in my jeep. Works great with the stock booster and costs $13
I've heard people using an E350 Econoline master as well as a Firebird and Corvette.
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I had a leak in one of the front brake lines a few years ago, plus I needed new pads. So, that kind of started a cascade of brake work in my case.
I started out with Hawk pads. These ate through the stock rotors pretty fast which necessitated a rotor replacement after about a year. Currently using EBC's slotted rotors (the black coating comes off where pads contact) and their "yellow" pads and this is a very solid combo. Also went with stainless lines and synthetic fluid which really firms up the pedal feel.
I could probably go up a size or two in tires and not feel a real loss in braking power. However, I'd probably want to upgrade the master-cylinder.
Most people forget tires when they think of brakes. Good tires make a big difference in stopping distances. www.Tirerack.com has reviews on ATs and MTs
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Right now I am considering putting in new Brembo slotted rotors, Hawk LTS pads, and the 5 layered lines (with stainless steel). On the back, I will only replace the brake shoes and leave the stock drums for now (I am considering switching to a D44 from a Honda Passport, and these have rear disc brakes, so I dont want to spend too much money on my current rear axle!).
Rear Brake Shoes:
http://www.quadratec.com/products/56216_06.htm
Brake Lines
http://www.quadratec.com/products/12706_33X_PG.htm
Brake Pads
http://www.performancecenter.com/product.page/Brakes/Brake+Pads/0/0/0/HWKHB210Y.677/Jeep/1994/Wrangler
Rotors
http://www.performancecenter.com/product.page/Brakes/Brake+Rotors/0/0/0/BRE47041/JEEP/1994/Wrangler
I already have the brake tool and the brake lube.
Overall, I am spending a little less than $400 on brakes, but should have a setup that will handle my future needs (33" tires).
Felipe
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Just as a warning, those drilled slotted rotors are real nice if you live where it never snows. They can crack starting at the drill holes when the hot rotor meets a splash of slush. Not to mention all the rust issues on the non contact areas of the rotors (the slots and holes).
My stock front brakes, explorer disk rears and a mercury Marquis MC are enough to bring 35's to a skidding halt.
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The ones I am getting are not drilled, only slotted. I rdid some research, and it seems that drilled+slotted is not a good combination (it weakens the rotors too much), and slotted are better than drilled (stronger, less cracking) while being just as efficient in releasing gases and dissipating heat (meaning they are more efficient at stopping).
Slotted rotors also suppossedly clean the braking system from dust and are better at getting water out of the system, meaning more braking efficiency when wet versus standard rotors. I also decided to go with a well known brand (in this case, Brembo) to make sure the rotors will be top quality.
I AM building my rig based onthe assumption that it will be used in hot weather only, as I am currently living in Miami FL, and I will be taking it down to Panama, Central America. So I doubt this rig will ever see any snow.
But thanks for the warning anyway!
Felipe
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If it sees mud, you won't like the slotted either.
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If it sees mud, you won't like the slotted either.
Why is that? Rust? I thought that since the slotted rotors cleaned the pads, it would actually help... Guess I am wrong!
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If it sees mud, you won't like the slotted either.
Why is that? Rust? I thought that since the slotted rotors cleaned the pads, it would actually help... Guess I am wrong!
The slots will trap mud, rocks, etc...
I still think a better upgrade would be to go with two pot calipers. Or else go cheap and swap in a TJ M/C and booster.
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The crap cakes up in the slots and then as it comes out you are dragging sand and crap over the rotor surface.
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Well, for now I decided to stick with the rotors I got on the Jeep. I ordered the Hawk LTS brake pads (suppossedly these have more stopping power than the regular ferro-carbon and the ceramics), and I am replacing the brake lines, and I ordered the rear brake shoes with hardware, so I guess I am spending less than I originally thought I would on the brake job. I will test this set-up and see how it goes.
The big question now is, should I have my rotors turned? I have read some places that when you change pads you should also turn them, but mine seem to be in good order (I see no scrathing on them, and they have no vibrations when I press the pedal). The thing is that I dont know how many times (if any) they have been turned before...
I was planning on changing them mainly because I thought that way I would know where the rotors are in terms of times they have been turned and such... Not to mention I was going to upgrade while at it!
Felipe
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The FSM says not to turn them and just clean them up with fine sand paper, unless they are really bad, then replace.
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New ones cost $20-$40 depending on the brand. Hardly worth turning them, even if there was enough material to do it.
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New ones cost $20-$40 depending on the brand. Hardly worth turning them, even if there was enough material to do it.
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It isn't! I even said it in the first reply. :wall:
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+1
It isn't! I even said it in the first reply. :wall:
LOL - apparently it needed to be repeated, since somehow we have a 3 page thread on doing a brake job ;)
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You figure if you are going to drive in sand and silt and crap, you are going to get crap on the disc rotor surface that is going to score it whether you are using standard rotors, slotted, dimpled etc etc. Even with no dimples/slots, when the pads bite on a rotor that has hard particulates on it, you are probably going to get a some scoring
You do it with slotted rotors, then the crap/mud/grit will get trapped in the slots/dimples and really screw up your rotors etc, right? Maybe
These slots and dimples are coated with brake dust just from regular street use and that dust (and the effective anti-rust zinc coatings on most brakes) probably doesn't win any prizes for aiding mud/sand/rock particle-adhesion. That plus high heat born of braking friction which will cause the rotor metal to expand -- again disrupting adhesion or capture of foreign materials -- and the air speed from road-driving probably makes slots and dimples less than hospitable environment for mud/sand/rock particles seeking long-term residency on your after-market rotors.
But if you are using these slotted/dimpled rotors on a non-street-able rig that never gets on the road and is always on the rocks or in mud pits and averaging 1mph (or you'd like to wish that you are :lol:), maybe its a different story. Maybe then you want to get yourself some stock-type rotors.
As for drilled brakes... The way around cracking -- while keeping the potential cooling effect of drilling -- is, apparently, to use over-sized rotors. You'll see big drilled rotors on modern porsche, mercedes cars-- cars designed for 155mph highway cruising in countries that also get snow/ice/rain. If you wanted to do the big, drilled, aftermarket Brembos on a street/trail Jeep, you could probably do it up with no problems. If you hit mud/grit off-road, a little street/highway driving/braking would probably go a long way towards insuring they were cleaned out completely.
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Jeep not a race car no slotted dimpled starred grooved rotors needed just use the plain stuff, upgrade the booster and mastercylinder then use the money saved on good tires and lockers or whatever makes it drive the way you likeon the road and off the road on the rocks in dirt swamp you name it. All the stuff needed to do a brake job that will get the job done at a low cost is in these three pages
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LOL - apparently it needed to be repeated, since somehow we have a 3 page thread on doing a brake job ;)
I guess I should apologize for all the rookie questions that made a brake job a 3 page thread! Sorry, guys! But your answers HAVE been most useful!
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Just to update you guys...
Finally got to doing the brake job, and WHAT A TON OF WORK it ended being! First of all, the Hawk pads came wrong (I got 2 left outer pads), so I had to end up getting some new pads locally. I installed Bendix TitaniuMetallic II, and they are doing fine up front... I also installed Brembo rotors (called me hard headed, but I got the slotted ones...) and the new brake lines (the ones I got are the 5 layered ones from Quadratec).
On the back, it turns out the whole brake system was shot, as the cylinders in the rear were not working at all. So I had to replace those as well. I did have the rear drums turned, to even things out, but no wonder I was short on topping power! The rear brakes were not working!!!
Anyway, now I got enough power to lock the wheels, but the pedal is still way down there, making driving a bit uncomfortable. So the booster will most likely be replcaed as well. But that's further down the line!
Felipe
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If the pedal is low its either air in the brake hydraulics or your rear brakes need adjusting. With drum brakes its a good idea to first back of the park brake cable then adjust the rear brakes then adjust the park brake.
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http://www.motiveproducts.com/02bleeders.html
Easiest way to get the brakes fully bled out in about 10 minutes.
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If you live in a humid wet area you should consider a synthetic DOT5 brake fluid, normal break fluid will absorb moisture and is water soluble while synthetic will repel water from the brake system, you may even notice improved braking performance due to better lubrication of the master & pistons, just don't mix the two types there not compatible. You can also improve rear drum performance by using a hacksaw and cutting a "W" pattern across the drum pads, this has similar benefits as slotted rotors. I read this in an issue of Four Wheeler and after trying it on some new drum pads I was amazed with the results. Sounds like a small amount of air is still in the system, have a friend help you bleed the the system, results are usually better than using a self bleeder kit and plan on using a whole bottle to flush and bleed.
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If the pedal is low its either air in the brake hydraulics or your rear brakes need adjusting. With drum brakes its a good idea to first back of the park brake cable then adjust the rear brakes then adjust the park brake.
Didn't the rear brakes adjust themselves by backing up and braking hard? I thought this would readjust them...
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http://www.motiveproducts.com/02bleeders.html
Easiest way to get the brakes fully bled out in about 10 minutes.
I did bleed the lines, as I installed the new brake lines, so there should not be any air in the lines...
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If you live in a humid wet area you should consider a synthetic DOT5 brake fluid, normal break fluid will absorb moisture and is water soluble while synthetic will repel water from the brake system, you may even notice improved braking performance due to better lubrication of the master & pistons, just don't mix the two types there not compatible. You can also improve rear drum performance by using a hacksaw and cutting a "W" pattern across the drum pads, this has similar benefits as slotted rotors. I read this in an issue of Four Wheeler and after trying it on some new drum pads I was amazed with the results. Sounds like a small amount of air is still in the system, have a friend help you bleed the the system, results are usually better than using a self bleeder kit and plan on using a whole bottle to flush and bleed.
This is a good idea; I do live in a very humid region (Miami), so I think I'll replace the brake fluid with a fully synthetic one. About the W shape, well, I think I will leave that for the next time I take the wheels off... I'm just too lazy, aren't I?
Felipe
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http://www.motiveproducts.com/02bleeders.html
Easiest way to get the brakes fully bled out in about 10 minutes.
I did bleed the lines, as I installed the new brake lines, so there should not be any air in the lines...
Soft pedal indicates air in the lines, bad master cylinder or a leak. Rock hard pedal indicates bad brake booster. 9 times out of 10 if you have been replacing lines and wheel cylinders, it will be air in the lines. Pressure bleeding the brakes is the way that shops do it and guarantees that all the air gets out. Pumping the brakes will not always do the job. Another option if you don't want to invest in a pressure bleeder is doing a gravity bleed for a few hours.
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When I replaced my rear wheel cylinders the gravity bleeding worked very well. I took it to a shop for a final bleeding since I had no helper around and after that it felt exactly like just after the gravity bleed so the gravity bleed was really all that was needed.
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Well, my wife started the decoration of the baby's room, so now I have a sofa and some other stuff in MY garage (it seems she is stil not aware that it is MY garage!!! LOL!!!) so I am kind of limited in space now, so I'll probably have it done or something...
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Didn't the rear brakes adjust themselves by backing up and braking hard? I thought this would readjust them...
Not unless you get them close to where they need to be. ie. slightly dragging.
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From your reply Felipe adjust your rear brakes first, to do this correctly you tighten them till the brakes lock then back them off till it spins again with a very light drag or just no drag on the wheel. It is not always easy to push the brake adjuster out of the way when trying to back the adjuster off. So you might be better off to just tighten the brake adjuster with the wheel on till you feel a very slight drag on the wheel when truning it. Then step on the brake pedal and check again this should bring the brake pedal up where it belongs. If it doesn't you will have to bleed the brakes, the easy poor man's way of doing this is take a bottle of some sort fill it part way with brakefluid hang a piece of vacuum hose in it (that fits tight on the bleeder nipple of thge wheel cylinder) stick the other end on the bleeder fitting open the fitting pump the brake pedal3-6 times, check the fluid level in the master cylinder. close the bleeder check the pedal and repeat if necesary. You can do this at all four wheelsalso if you want to go to the synthetic brake fluid this is how you can acomplish changing out the fluid