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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: joe-joe on October 14, 2005, 09:35:07 AM
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Just wanted to know if anyone has run the Jeep TJ 4.0 Snorkel on their 2.5 since they don't make one for us?
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I don't think it would be that hard to modify the kit to work. The kit probably uses the OEM airbox and retains the stock system. I know for sure this is how they do ti on the YJ and a few other apps. ARB retains the stock box so all the emission lines aren't disturbed and doesn't have to get a CARB number for CA.
Some people get rid of their airbox and run the flex hose to the pledium on the TB. You'd have to figure out a way to retain the CCV and Charcoal canister return though.
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i have on my YJ bolted right up. the hardest part was making that big of a hole in my fender.
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i have on my YJ bolted right up. the hardest part was making that big of a hole in my fender.
That's the easy part! :wink: :lol:
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ive seen it done .. a guy at the jeep rally i went to in somers CT had the tj one hooked up .. and he was running a supercharger on it too .. was kinda cool to see... i like the snorkle look on the pass side too
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I prefer it on the driver side since it's closer to the intake and stays away from the engine as much as possable. I've thought about doing a snorkel although probably not an ARB. I like some of the DIY's that can be removed when not needed.
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guess i should have mentioned due to the way he had the supercharger set up the intake was on the pass side anyway .. it does make more sense to have it on drivers but i just dont like the way it sits
never heard of a DYI ? whats that ?
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DIY = Do It Yourself
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Not my build, but a member of our jeep jamboree trailguides writeup on making it yourself.
http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2005/snorkel/
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I like it except for the huge metal pipe. I'd probably go ABS. I do like how it goes through the hood like the old snorkel kits for military Jeeps.
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Looks like a good project, I guess the humidifier top would help keep water out. I have always thought that it is a little more risky to have a giant rain catcher at the end of you snorkel than having a hole that is 3ft above the ground. I have heard that ARB has done some things to prevent rain from entering the system but havent figured out what yet.
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the way ARB designed the top unit it now has molded ridges to help guide the rain out. It explains it on their site. I honestly don't see where the moisture would become a problem, every jeep brings moisture into the intake, but it's vaporized before it gets to the engine. you'd be amazed at steam's cleaning ability in the engine.
plus, have you ever heard of "water injection"? It's where a small sprayer of water is added to the intake, to keep the engine air temperatures lower. it's sprayed as a fine mist, which cools the air. it's been used for probably the last 20 years with positive effects, and it's even been outlawed in various racing circuits due to the unfair advantage it offers in engine performance. ever notice how your jeep runs better in the cold weather than the heat? from a performance standpoint, a snorkel does bring in cooler air, which is a plus.
but if you're looking at it from the true offroad perspective, it becomes another part hanging off your jeep. i've seen them ripped off, crushed, and even broken in half. you'll have to work harder to try and avoid damage to it. as far as water fording, if you're going in water deeper than your factory airbox, i'd say you have bigger problems.
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Well snorkels are not just used for water crossing but also really dusty area's. They are very popular in the outback because of this. But I won't be spending $300 for something that can be crushed or broken when I can spend much less and get the same results. That's one of the reason's I'd want it to be able to break down.
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With the snorkel facing forward would this give a ram air affect? Would your performance and mielage be affected? Hopefully in a good way...?
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wouldn't count on much of an increase at all.
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wouldn't count on much of an increase at all.
Why is that? It is a ram air. At least 5-10 HP like any other ram air kit? Wouldn't you think
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Been driving w/ the ARB snorkel for about 9 months. I am not impressed with it. I wasn’t expecting much the main reason I got it was insurance. I frequently wheel in deep mud and some water and the stock intake is just behind the driver’s side headlight. I got mine used for $150 so I am not too upset. My K&N has never been dirtier than with the snorkel. Look at it like this when driving down a dusty road where does the dust your jeep kicks up go? It goes up then slowly falls to the ground. So in a line of a few vehicle you really are not getting any cleaner air and probably are getting dirtier air b/c the grill, headlight, bumper, lights are not restricting airflow(the little bit that they do). As far as ram air effect it is non existent. True ram airs are designed for specific vehicles and are strategically placed in the correct location and angle to have air “rammed” into your intake. Any ram air effect that it provides is probably negated by the fact that there is a huge thing hanging off the side of your jeep and ruins and aerodynamics your jeep has left.
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Why is that? It is a ram air. At least 5-10 HP like any other ram air kit? Wouldn't you think
The only "RAM AIR" you'll get is with a supercharger. And I've run one... That's probably the only mod I was actually impressed with the gains out of the 2.5L. Any other ram air mod is junk. You won't get ANY gains unless you boost at least 3-4psi of true air pressure directly into the TB, and have the fuel system capable of boosting pressure also.
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there wont be much effect, b/c with a long intake pipe like that, you have lots of air friction/resistance within the pipe - the air moving in is slowed as it passes the innerwalls of the pipe. same rule applies when sizing HVAC ductwork.
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It's not really ram air and was never designed to be. It is Cold air induction though. Cold air is denser so it's basically more air. If there are a lot of particulates in the air, grabbing air from higher up would be better.
The larger dia. will help to bring in a bit more air but I don't think it's that much more then the OEM box. The turbulence from all those corgated tubing betweeen the snorkel and the air box won't help much.
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You can't lay down your windshield with the ARB snorkel either. :cry:
I've crunched mine on a couple trees so far and only popped the top off, but that was in warmer months. I'm sure it'll shatter when it gets cold enough though. :cry:
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(http://bbs.fblife.com/UploadFile/2005-2/2005215161136585.jpg)
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What the hell happened there?
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What the hell happened there?
http://www.4bangerjp.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=520&
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Kamakazi style. and they wonder why they lost the war
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Kamakazi style. and they wonder why they lost the war
Um, those guy's are Chinese.... :roll:
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That's what those guys get for bombing Pearl Harbor and then trying to drive a Jeep! Sons of bitches!
:wink:
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That's what those guys get for bombing Pearl Harbor and then trying to drive a Jeep! Sons of bitches!
:wink:
So the Chinese bombed Pearl Harbor huh?
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This was the first thing I thought of when people started saying the chinese instead of the japanese bombed pearl harbor.
D-Day: War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard]
Bluto: the tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[runs out, alone; then returns]
I dunno, I think that its a bit extreme to say something along the lines of 'them' deserving whatever bad things happen because of pearl harbor. I'm reasonably sure that the present day cancer victims resulting from the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are comparable to the loss of life at Pearl Harbor. let alone the initial amount of death and destruction. I don't think we need a UN panel to figure out where the greatest source of WMD's are in the world...
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(I caught the Chinese "Kamikaze" note a few back. Hence, my wink in the follow-on)
Of course, everybody knows that, towards the end of WW2, and running out of pilots, the Japanese were forced to utilize quickly-indoctrinated personnel from occupied mainland China to fly suicide missions against the approaching Allied Fleet. These brain-washed, Chinese "Kamikaze" were called "Bejing-Bullets" by Allied Sailors and Marines.
I'm surprised you didn't know this, Jeffy
:lol:
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(I caught the Chinese "Kamikaze" note a few back. Hence, my wink in the follow-on)
Of course, everybody knows that, towards the end of WW2, and running out of pilots, the Japanese were forced to utilize quickly-indoctrinated personnel from occupied mainland China to fly suicide missions against the approaching Allied Fleet. These brain-washed, Chinese "Kamikaze" were called "Bejing-Bullets" by Allied Sailors and Marines.
I'm surprised you didn't know this, Jeffy
:lol:
Just making sure... :wink:
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Anyway, back to the snokel thread -
IMO - a snorkel is good for one thing - long distance convoy type trail running. It'll get the inlet up and out of the dust and dirt kicked up from the guy in front of you. Day to day, it's worthless. Water fording - yeah, good theory, maybe that'll impress the non-ers but unless it's 100% waterproof all the way to the TB it won't work (and like someobody said before me - if you've got standing water up to your windshield, you've got several other problems you need to be more concerned with). If you plan on running a fair distance down a dusty trail or sand - it'll help you out some, unless you're running point the entire way - then it's just one more thing that could get busted off by those rouge ice over lakes in China.
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Well, they are used for water crossings but not ones where you're going to be driving through for a while. On a Stock Jeep water only needs to be 24" to get to the stock intake, I believe. Although if you're moving the bow wave will help keep the water out. Stop and it will be right into the air box. At 24" most of the electrical's are still high enough to be out of water. Although if you have an older Jeep, some of the connectros might not be as waterproof as you might think. In any case, a snorkle by itself is mostly for looks but is still ok for the wheeler who isn't going to be driving down a river. If that's your thing though, a snorkel is only the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. A lot of other issues need to be covered.
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Just went on my first trail ride Saturday...wooooooo.
Here I am going through the first "puddle"
(http://static.flickr.com/35/115286893_a64cd7ca12_o.jpg)
This guy went through right after me...water gets in the cylinder...KA-BOOM....rips right through the oil pan...no more engine.
(http://static.flickr.com/36/115286894_eeb0254b72_o.jpg)
So...would a snorkel have helped?? Sylicone the distributor cap?? Run the exhaust up to the top of the Jeep?
I had fun in the mud and want to do it again...but not if my engine is going to explode.
Oh yeah...I got stuck as well...went through this one a couple of times and the ruts finally got a little to deep and the front end plowed into a wall 'o' mud.
(http://static.flickr.com/43/115288881_48f6a1ad59_o.jpg)
...and this was my favorite "stuck" of the day...nearly tipped on its side as they were trying to pull it out. Two guys ran over and literally jumped on the side of the Jeep to keep it upright....looked like they were sailing a Hobie Cat.
(http://static.flickr.com/48/115288885_d947d62f6d_o.jpg)
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sweet I cant wait to get out there but I will deff. be weary of h2o and deep mudd
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The best thing to do is be aware of your intake height and know how to drive through water. Blasting through water looks cool but it's very smart. Deep water can be a PITA.
As long as you keep the engine running, having the exhaust underwater isn't a problem. The pressure from the engine should keep most of the water out.
Siliconing the distributor isn't really necessary unless you're planning on going into some deep stuff and if it's that deep, you'd have been better off prepping your Jeep more.
The thing here is prioirties. Unless you're on a expedition where you need to be floating your Jeep across a river or driving it through a swamp, you don't have to go overhoard on water protection. The intake is on the front of the Jeep and isn't that high. 24" is the height of the intake on most stock Jeeps. 24" does not mean it has to be 24" deep. When driving in water, like in a boar, you create a bow wave that sits in front of the vehicle as long as you keep moving forward. Right behind the bow wave is the trough. This is a low spot which will usually be behind your grill. This is good since the air box is in that general area. If you stop though, the wave will colapse and the trough will fill and crest a bit.
So, the first step would be to add a snorkel. Is that all that's needed? No. The next problem area is probably the fan. Normally it moves air. When it moves air it blows it towards the engine. In water, because of the resistance, the fan will flex (even the stock fan) With enough resistance it could bend the fan enough to encounter the radiator. (Unlikely on a 2.5L.) It will put added stress on the engine.
Is that it? Nope, not even close. All of your axles, transfer case and transmission have breather tubes. Most of these are short. The transmission vent is usually only a few inches taller then the top of the case. Those lines can easily be lengthened.
Now lets look at the electrical. Any place you have a connection, you have a place where water can get into and can cause grounding. Die electric grease in the spark plug boots would help in the boots to keep water out. The distributor had a vent but it isn't very long. Sealing around the base of the distributor with silicone would help keep water out. Then you'd have to extend the vent to a better place. Also, spraying WD40 on the rotor and inside of the distributor would be a good idea. (WD 40's purpose was for Water Displacement.) On older engine's is almost impossible to seal off everything. Mainly relays and the computer. They should all be sealed, too.
By this time your exhaust to be raised higher. The military does this with a bolt on flange at the end of the regular pipe, making it removeable.
I've seen some really hard core stuff where a air pump was connected to all of the vents. This adds a bit of positive air pressure into all of these components which prevents water from entering nearly as fast.
Speaking of pumps, by now you should have water leaking though the floor. The floor has a bunch of holes you may never see. Every place a bolt passes through is a potential leak. Why should this matter? Well, if you're going to raise the intake to the top of the Jeep, that means at maximum depth, you'll be under water. Even when it's only half way up, you'll be up to your neck.
So what is a snorkel good for then? Those times you plow your Jeep though those muddy water holes. Where there is a pretty good chance of dipping the from low enough for the intake to drink water but not deep enough for you to be swimming in it. Those dunks can still do a lot of damage.
There is another use. The Auzzies use them to keep the intake out of the dust. When driving in dry area's dusst is more of a problem then water. If the dust is fine it will clog up an air filter in no time.
In the US most people buy them for looks though. Although for the occasional dunk, it could save you a lot of money.
On a personal note, I don't like the looks of the ARB snorkel. Vortex now has an even uglier snorkel out now too. For some reason I like what the Brits have been doing. Plastic drainage pipe with a cap on top. Many of them look good enough to be OEM. Only problem with a Jeep is that they can look rather ugly since the pipe's have to be routed outside the body.
Oh and that guy is lucky if all he he damaged was his oil pan and lowers. Hydrolocking usually bends all of the pistons. IF you're really lucky, it will break then off and the rod will ventilate the block.
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On a personal note, I don't like the looks of the ARB snorkel. Vortex now has an even uglier snorkel out now too. For some reason I like what the Brits have been doing. Plastic drainage pipe with a cap on top. Many of them look good enough to be OEM. Only problem with a Jeep is that they can look rather ugly since the pipe's have to be routed outside the body.
...but there just doesn't seem to be anything else out there other than home made PVC pipe solutions.
Any links to the British ones you like??
I like the look of a snorkel but tend to agree with you a little on the ARB one....seems to go way lower on the side panel than it has to....I understand they are coming up to the intake from the bottom...just don't like the way it covers the whole side of the Jeep.
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Whoops, I meant Volant not Vortex.
(http://proficientperformance.com/images/product_images/volant_images/vol-rubascoop.jpg)
Many of the DIY's I like are not on Jeeps but rather Land Rovers , FJ40's and other vehicles. They seem to make them so they doesn't look like drainage pipe on the side of the vehicle. None of that ragged scrap metal with silicone around everything then pray painted nonsense.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/thebecketts/rover/rovermod.htm
A little too organic for me: http://www.pbase.com/flagg/snorkel
There are by a company called Mantec.
(http://www.mantec.co.uk/images/large/FLR%20RAI%20upright%20crop.jpg)(http://www.mantec.co.uk/images/large/ACF5BAB.JPG)(http://www.mantec.co.uk/images/large/defender%20air%20intake%20left.jpg)
Bottom of the cap: (http://www.roverworld.com/images/Products/Snorkel-06.jpg)
Safari/ARB:
(http://www.mrmoms.org/BadLuck/Jeep-Rubicon-Back.jpg)
Internal setup with intake still mounted under the hood/fender.
(http://www.off-road.com/toyota/cheaptricks/snorkel/snorkel1.jpg)
(http://www.pajero4x4.ru/snorkel/4d56snorkel.JPG)
(http://www.spiritt4x4.com/snorkel.jpg)(http://mercado4x4.com.br/images/100306-03.jpg)
Out of these, I like the last Toyota. Although I'd choose a different cap.
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Old thread but i was thinking of swapping out my AEM cold air to a snorkel for some peace of mind for water crossing. i dont go in anything too deep but id think it would be a nice idea to have the intake raised a bit.
My concerns were as follows:
performance would be hindered. Not that the AEM makes much of a difference, but it helps a little bit. It seems that the very shape of the intake would make airflow harder to the engine...perhaps restrict it in a bit. Im not sure at this point i want to put anything on that will restrict the engine.
What happens when it rains or snows real hard? Driving in a strong rain storm, it would seem that the water could possibly get in...would it be enoigh to be concerned? What about a good snow storm? driving snow could pack up inside the scoop...im assuming you would have to knock the snow off before starting the engine...
Im aware of the fact that many more things need to be water proofed before going into anything really deep, but im wondering if this is worth the added insurance for the occasional splash in the deeper mud/water holes.
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i can't recall your AEM setup but if you have it inside the engine bay the snorkel will give you better performance since the air is cooler significantly - just use a high flow filter and you'll see an improvement. I don't know about snow, water from rain is fine unless it's a tropical type storm there's not much to worry about - if you're really concerned in a heavy rain you can always point the scoop backwards
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What happens when it rains or snows real hard? Driving in a strong rain storm, it would seem that the water could possibly get in...would it be enoigh to be concerned? What about a good snow storm? driving snow could pack up inside the scoop...im assuming you would have to knock the snow off before starting the engine...
You either use a pre-filter like a tornado or you turn the inlet around so it's pointed backwards. Generally you'll still have an airbox so it would have to fill up first.
(http://www.4x4connection.com/images/snorkel3.jpg)
(http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/34405/2179151010034696539S600x600Q85.jpg)
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this would therefor require me to go back to a stock airbox i'm assuming...good thing i saved mine. sharpxmen mentioned a high flow filter to use as well, any examples (is that just a K&N?) High flow filter and snorkel together? And yes, my AEM is a cold air intake-basically replaced the stock box with tube and large filter.
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You could run an inline filter of some sort but then you're getting a smaller filter which would therefore restrict some. Might as well go back to the stock airbox and have an extra level of protection. You could run a K&N or Fram Air Hog in there though. My Airhog seems to filter more then my old K&N. No dust on the outlet side.
With regard to all the electricals, it's usually not too big of a deal. They don't short out that easily. A snorkel will do a few things though. Give you cold air while also giving you fresh air, especially if you drive in a dusty area. The initial dunk won't cause the engine to suck up water either.
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http://static.flickr.com/36/115286894_eeb0254b72_o.jpg
did you window motor it like me and snap the cam?
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You could run an inline filter of some sort but then you're getting a smaller filter which would therefore restrict some. Might as well go back to the stock airbox and have an extra level of protection. You could run a K&N or Fram Air Hog in there though. My Airhog seems to filter more then my old K&N. No dust on the outlet side.
With regard to all the electricals, it's usually not too big of a deal. They don't short out that easily. A snorkel will do a few things though. Give you cold air while also giving you fresh air, especially if you drive in a dusty area. The initial dunk won't cause the engine to suck up water either.
what are the hi-flow filter options that i have? By the way, i blew the TPS the other day while washing down my engine bay. and i was careful no to spray water directly on the sensors...still, the water that got on it (mixed with the engine cleaner) managed to kill the TPS. unless of course this was all a coincidence and it just happened to die after i was done cleaning. Just saying, if a little water from a hose can take out a sensor, a full dunk can prob do some work lol.
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Unless you were using a high pressure power washer and was spraying around the TPS, I doubt it would have gone bad because of a little water.
Hi-flow? With a snorkel, it will be a bit better then a stock system. There is a lot of piping and with that a lot of bends. The air flow should be faster since the snorkel is in the air flow rather then in the engine compartment. It will also be cooler as your not sucking hot engine compartment air. Most high-flow systems are really bad about this. Really though, a snorkel isn't about hi-flow. It's about getting clean air. (either by dirt or water)
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you can use a KnN or AirHog in the stock airbox like Jeffy said, or something like Apollo KnN that is a contained CAI but make sure to seal the front adapter (silicone would do).
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Looks like a good project, I guess the humidifier top would help keep water out. I have always thought that it is a little more risky to have a giant rain catcher at the end of you snorkel than having a hole that is 3ft above the ground. I have heard that ARB has done some things to prevent rain from entering the system but havent figured out what yet.
You wont have a problem with the snorkel facing front; trust me, I live in the tropics, and drive mine in Panama (Central America; trust me, I have lived in Miami, Baltimore, Virginia, Costa Rica and Panama, and have traveled around the world, and I have seen very few places with more rainfall than Panama!). I also used the Safari one on my 2.5L with no problems.
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You wont have a problem with the snorkel facing front; trust me, I live in the tropics, and drive mine in Panama (Central America; trust me, I have lived in Miami, Baltimore, Virginia, Costa Rica and Panama, and have traveled around the world, and I have seen very few places with more rainfall than Panama!). I also used the Safari one on my 2.5L with no problems.
well if u dont think that ill have a problem with heavy rain or snow, that eases my mind a bit on this issue.
thanks for the responses guys! ill post back when im ready to do the mod and im lookin for the right high-flow filter.
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well if u dont think that ill have a problem with heavy rain or snow, that eases my mind a bit on this issue.
thanks for the responses guys! ill post back when im ready to do the mod and im lookin for the right high-flow filter.
For the filter, I've used paper, K&N, and Fram Airhog. Both K&N and Fram will add power, but the K&N was letting some dust particles through, which is why I swapped it out and used the Fram.