4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: dudley on June 06, 2008, 07:54:06 AM
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My 87 Comanche 2.5 with an Aisin 4 speed, manual steering and no A/C, is a street jeep only, other than hauling stuff. I am interested in maximizing HP without destroying gas milage, maybe even improving it (get a bit over 20mpg now). I had the engine rebuilt about 1.5 years ago and as a start installed a Delta Camshaft that has barely a bit more lift and duration. I have a single in/dual out flowmaster. That is all my mods so far. I want to add headers and an electric fan. What else could I do to help make it work better, like for passing, on the highway?
Eagerly awaiting suggestions!
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You can definately install one of those drop in K&N-style filters for cheap. You didn't say if you transmission was manual or auto, if it's a 4-speed manual, I'd say trying finding a 5-speed. Not sure if that 4-speed is missing the low first gear or overdrive 5th gear, but you should still see a slight increase in mileage, specially if your adding is the overdrive gear. Besides that, it looks like you've got everything covered on the "bolt-on" front.
You're actually getting really good mileage. If you look at the mileage thread you'll see most are getting significantly less than 20mpg. I get exactly that most of the time. I'm planning on getting an electric fan myself, gotta see if it helps.
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A turbocharger would be the way to go. Several threads on this can be found in the Members' Projects forum.
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Yeah, well he wanted cheaper stuff...
Go through the hassle of upgrading to MPI like me! Woo... I'm still researching, finding new problems every day, but I'll give you the whole list of everything needed when I get done (hopefully within a month)
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Yeah, well he wanted cheaper stuff...
Actually, he didn't say he wanted cheeper stuff. :confused:
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Actually, he didn't say he wanted cheeper stuff. :confused:
Haha, I'm stupid... woo :weee:
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You can definately install one of those drop in K&N-style filters for cheap. You didn't say if you transmission was manual or auto, if it's a 4-speed manual, I'd say trying finding a 5-speed. Not sure if that 4-speed is missing the low first gear or overdrive 5th gear, but you should still see a slight increase in mileage, specially if your adding is the overdrive gear. Besides that, it looks like you've got everything covered on the "bolt-on" front.
You're actually getting really good mileage. If you look at the mileage thread you'll see most are getting significantly less than 20mpg. I get exactly that most of the time. I'm planning on getting an electric fan myself, gotta see if it helps.
What difference would there be IRT a drop in K&N and an add on conical for milage? I am getting the impression some have found the conical can give too much air that hurts low end but helps high end. As I did say, I have the Aisin 4 speed. I have given thought to a 5 speed, but this 4 speed, after almost 300.000 miles, still shifts to first while moving, and is making no noise. I'm leery of what I might find in a 5 speed. I will do electric fan. Has anyone used Clifford headers? I know pacesetter's are less expensive, but Clifford has been inline engines only for a long time!
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I have the canonical air filter, and I can't say I remember a low end power difference. I put it in almost 7 years ago. Since this Jeep is my DD having power between 2k-3k RPM is important to me, since this is where I spend most of the time. It does lag between 1k-1.5k though, really bad, too.
As for the headers, I'd say stay away from anything Pacesetter. I bought their cat-back, about the same time I got the air filter, had to get it replaced after just 50k miles because the mufler completely rusted away. It also hit my rear shock most of the time, specially when the muffler started rotting and the tail pipe loosened.
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There probably wont be much gain from headers, and like jeffy always says, "You'll lose the scavenging effect." You may gain a ponie or two up high (4k-5k), but you'll lose low end torque (which matters more in a street application).
An electric fan would counteract the negative effects of more air flow, it significantly decreases the amount of force needed to overcome the fan's offset reciprocating inertia, freeing up a ponie or two and moving the torque curve lower on the RPM range.
If you can balance everything out, you'll get as much as 10 hp (less of a torque gain, though) at about the same curve as before.
As said before, changing air flow just moves the power around on the curve. The only TRUE gain would be from taking that extra weight off the engine and using the electric fan.
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There probably wont be much gain from headers, and like jeffy always says, "You'll lose the scavenging effect." You may gain a ponie or two up high (4k-5k), but you'll lose low end torque (which matters more in a street application).
An electric fan would counteract the negative effects of more air flow, it significantly decreases the amount of force needed to overcome the fan's offset reciprocating inertia, freeing up a ponie or two and moving the torque curve lower on the RPM range.
If you can balance everything out, you'll get as much as 10 hp (less of a torque gain, though) at about the same curve as before.
As said before, changing air flow just moves the power around on the curve. The only TRUE gain would be from taking that extra weight off the engine and using the electric fan.
Agreed on the electric fan. Freeing up the engine is always the best. When it comes to headers, Clifford claims theirs will gain you a decent percentage of hp increase. I know those are only figures they put out, but given they are seriously into inline engines, I might believe them. As far as I learned, giving an engine the ability to better breath in, as did fuel injection over carburation, and breath out, like allowing for more even back pressure in the exhaust, does increase hp, torque, and milage. What am I missing here IRT scavanging in all this?
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Agreed on the electric fan. Freeing up the engine is always the best. When it comes to headers, Clifford claims theirs will gain you a decent percentage of hp increase. I know those are only figures they put out, but given they are seriously into inline engines, I might believe them. As far as I learned, giving an engine the ability to better breath in, as did fuel injection over carburation, and breath out, like allowing for more even back pressure in the exhaust, does increase hp, torque, and milage. What am I missing here IRT scavanging in all this?
your comment on even back pressure has to do with scavenging. IIRC, having the correct amount of back pressure can create a vaccuum in the combustion chamber that more efficiently pulls intake air in, and everyone should know that more air means more power!
Thinking about it more, a higher flowing header with the stock 2.25" pipe would probably be very beneficial. I THINK it's mainly the diameter of the straight pipe that determines the scavenging on the port end, and if the Y connector on the header is slender/long enough, it can add it's own scavenging effect to the mix.
Okay... all this talk is hurting my brain... Good luck anyways!
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your comment on even back pressure has to do with scavenging. IIRC, having the correct amount of back pressure can create a vaccuum in the combustion chamber that more efficiently pulls intake air in, and everyone should know that more air means more power!
Thinking about it more, a higher flowing header with the stock 2.25" pipe would probably be very beneficial. I THINK it's mainly the diameter of the straight pipe that determines the scavenging on the port end, and if the Y connector on the header is slender/long enough, it can add it's own scavenging effect to the mix.
Okay... all this talk is hurting my brain... Good luck anyways!
That's what I was thinking IRT scavenging. The idea of headers is to create a fast, but not too fast, escape of exhaust . I talked my family into helping me get the header Clifford sells for the 2.5 for my birthday. They feel sorry for me since I am turning 60. Clifford deals with inline engines only. Jack Clifford was the driver of a stock Hudson in the 1950's that was cleaning up on even the early hemi's at drag races. After then working in Aerospace for a while, Ford hired him to beat the chevy team.
The tech guy swears it will gain a minimum of an 18% hp increase over stock. He says they developed them when the 2.5 came out, so the dyno info is gone, but he said this header, when bolted on to a stock engine, cut 2 seconds off the quarter mile time in their tests. But, he say you have to go with 2 inch all the way back. I will ask him about the stock 2.25 head pipe, if that would hurt the scavenging.
So, after I get this header paid for, and can get a hiflow catalytic converter since mine is older than the hills, I will bolt them on and do a "seat of the pants" dyno test.
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That's odd?? 2" instead of stock 2.25"? I bet the stock will be fine... but might as well ask him!
Haha... I'm turning 18 in... 40 days, but any presents there will be for upcoming college!
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That's odd?? 2" instead of stock 2.25"? I bet the stock will be fine... but might as well ask him!
Haha... I'm turning 18 in... 40 days, but any presents there will be for upcoming college!
Only soon to be 18? You pretty smart for a young-un! At your age I was working on a 55 chevy station wagon that by the time I was 21 had a 327 in it with 525hp. Now, since I will be 60 next month, it's probably not good for me to have that kind of HP. Thus, my working on "hot rodding" a 4 popper! ;)
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Dudley, Since you did some old school working I'm sure you know a simple tune-up and properly gaped plugs will make a big difference. There aint much you can do to the 4popper to get some real power. Having a slight vacume leak will reduce your power. Just give it a good look over and check it out. If you want to go big you can cut the cylinder .010, .020, or .030 over and add some bigger pistons. Not much for a cam that I have found unless you spend a million bucks and custom cut one. As your fuel intake you can get creative with a dremmel tool and clean out the casting scabs. A header is never a bad idea neather is a Aftermarket air intake!
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Dudley- go for the Clifford header! And it works well with the Clifford cam; the big problem being that they're spendy. My banger has some other stuff like a homemade 1" TB spacer, and a homade/temporary intake that I'm working on. My Jeep has showed up some pretty fancy built rigs. It's lifted (and sagging) on 33"s and regeared with 4.88. I use it primarily as a trail Jeep, but really enjoy driving it on road, too. By the way Kids, I'm 66, retired, and enjoying it!
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Dudley- go for the Clifford header! And it works well with the Clifford cam; the big problem being that they're spendy. My banger has some other stuff like a homemade 1" TB spacer, and a homade/temporary intake that I'm working on. My Jeep has showed up some pretty fancy built rigs. It's lifted (and sagging) on 33"s and regeared with 4.88. I use it primarily as a trail Jeep, but really enjoy driving it on road, too. By the way Kids, I'm 66, retired, and enjoying it!
I have the header on the bench in the garage. When I have the extra cash to buy a free flow converter and the cost of altering the head pipe to hook her up, it'll be a done deal! I don't have a clifford cam, but do have one by Delta already in. It is one bump up from stock in specs. My 2.5 is in an stock comanche 4x2 SWB with nothing power on the engine and a 4 speed. I will later put a hayden electric fan in place of the stock water pump clutch one. I am guestamating that based on Cliffords comments, my 117hp will bump up to about 140 with all that stuff on. Now, if they just made a throttle body spacer for my 87! :beers:
BTW, I am now 15 days shy of 60! Hard to get the need for speed out of old school hotrodders! :baby:
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Hey, Castr8r :
You seem to like the Clifford header. Did it do as promised, jump up the hp pretty good? Can you tell if it also helped gas milage? Any low end losses?
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I can't tell you that the work I did on my engine made it perform way better than stock, 'cause my motor was so thoroughly "sanded" that ANYTHING was an improvement! That being said, I can consistently out perform any other banger that it has come up against. We're not talking drag raceing, but on the trail and in the boonies. Further, it will do better than most six cylinder Jeeps to a point, that being road speed. I can maintain 65 mph in fifth gear now, but a steep hill means a downshift, where a six will lug on thru. I can't discuss mileage- my odometer has never worked! Seat of the pants says it is a lot better; I don't fill up as often. Probably the best thing about the Clifford header is the design- long tubes- that translates into torque. I think it was Dr.Duntov that said "torque is what moves a vehicle, horsepower is what sells it..." My mods have been primarily aimed at developing torque, and freeing up horsepower. My latest 'brain fart ' involves making intake ports a little smaller to increase low rpm air velocity, and help make torque by maintaining fuel suspension and mix in the air flow. I have a couple of spare heads to work with... I want the torque and power to come on at low rpm's, and seem to have been fortunate in my mods doing just that so far. OK, so I'm windy, too. Hope this helps you out. Do it dirty!
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OK, so I'm windy, too. Hope this helps you out. Do it dirty!
Sounds good! Mine being nothing but a highway rig, and that it will be a couple of months before the few hundred to get a free flow converter (old one's done for anyway) and the necessary mods to the head pipe, I will post my "seat of the pants" analysis!
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I just got another batch of 62mm throttle bodies for all those that have PM'd me with interest in them. $95 each while they last. Have one 62mm spacer, don't know when I'll have more once it is gone. bountyhunter AT sija.org is the best way to reach me.
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I have tried a variety of intakes - stock, w/KN panel, Cone with metal tube, back to stock and paper. The one thing that alway bugged me about any of the so-called cold air setups for Wranglers was the heat-soak you'd still be facing having the intake manifold right above the exhaust manifold. Touch the intake manifold some time after you've been driving for a while -- it'll be burning hot.
I was going to leave everything stock -- airbox and paper filter -- and just wrap the intake manfold in some thermotec tape. But I said "what if I took this cold air business a little further." And of course a project insued:
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/Intake.jpg)
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/Tubing.jpg)
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/FrontIntake.jpg)
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg271/leeiaccoca/Manifoldwrapped.jpg)
With the apparent intake temperature drop, low end is nice now. You move out a lot quicker. At highway speeds you do probably get a slight positive pressure, too -- like 1/10th of 1% :lol: I don't have the plastic rectangualr headlight pieces in place currently and I have both my front signal lights out. I put all that stuff in and I am going to have to attach something to the grill that flows incoming air past the grill to the left side where the intake opening is. This should cut out any heat perhaps given off by the radiator as well.
As for water intake, not much chance -- its not one of these Honda cone-filter under the bumper deals. I need to go through water I'll just unscrew the hose from the metal behind the grill and leave it high in the engine bay.
But point of all this is, yeah you can get some good results out of the 4Banger using the heat wrap products by Thermotec and then do a little filter shopping and metal hole boring
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we used to have heat problems with our cjs. the gas would boil in the carb when we where in Colorado... so we got / made headers for it and wrapped them with heat rap. which helped our performance allot because 1 we got better exhaust flow with the new header and exhaust. and the old exhaust manifold actually bolted to the intake manifold so it transferred allot of heat... so i guess what im saying is that heat wrap works (as mentioned above) and you can also heat rap your exhaust to keep it from escaping but that usually more applies and is easier to do when you have headers.
another thing to consider is that the intake manifold does have coolant flowing through it so it will be the same temp as your motor (give or take). but that is much cooler than the exhaust.
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we used to have heat problems with our cjs. the gas would boil in the carb when we where in Colorado... so we got / made headers for it and wrapped them with heat rap. which helped our performance allot because 1 we got better exhaust flow with the new header and exhaust. and the old exhaust manifold actually bolted to the intake manifold so it transferred allot of heat... so i guess what im saying is that heat wrap works (as mentioned above) and you can also heat rap your exhaust to keep it from escaping but that usually more applies and is easier to do when you have headers.
another thing to consider is that the intake manifold does have coolant flowing through it so it will be the same temp as your motor (give or take). but that is much cooler than the exhaust.
Your second paragraph only applies to pre 1991 YJ/MJ/XJ's, the MPI manifolds weren't heated. The theory on the TBI/Carb models was that the heated gas/fuel mixture would atomize more cleanly and also be heated (duh) to reach the proper operating temperature faster. MPI negates the need because the fuel is directed just above the valves and has very little time to mix with intake air (but is already atomized well enough it doesn't need more time).
I'm getting along on my MPI conversion, I need one last major part; the gas tank and fuel pump, plus TONS of little pieces (all the sensors, ignition coil, fuel lines, vac lines, etc).
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ok thanks for clearing that up... good luck with the conversion
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dudley
What Brand Front tube do you Have?
I been doing a little Exhaust work On my Jeep this last month. Front tube Is Next in my Total Stainless Steel Exhaust Setup Last and Hardest part.
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Installed my clifford header finally! Seat of pants determination; seems to help. My comanche 4x2 is a street driver only, and the hills on the interstate seem less of a pull for the 4 banger.
Did have an installation problem though. The header is built with the front two tubes collecting into one tube, the back two collecting into one tube, and those two then going into the collector. The "Y" where the front two came together was touching my block at the pan. I tapped in the edge of the pan, but that did not help. I called Clifford and they said they never had that problem before. They suggested having a local exhaust shop bend the 4 tubes some to get it to clear. Neither shop in my town would do that since it would make them liable for any problems. After a few frustrating calls to Clifford I flattened the back side of the "Y" touching the block. Did not use heatt. Now the collector was hitting my bell housing!
So Clifford had me send them back, shipping at their expense, to modify them plus check them with their jig. They claim it fit their jig perfectly but loosened up the two Y's and turned them out a bit. Received them back and the front "Y" still touched. I called clifford again and said I was tired of fighting this and wanted my money back. They said they could not do that since they , at my request, modified them. I told them since they claim this header fits all 2.5's from, I think they said, 86 to 91, and mine is an 87, the reason for my problem is obviously a fault with they way this header was made. They still refused. Needless to say, I told them this left me with no choice but to never buy clifford products again, and let others know how I was treated.
After hanging up I went to the shop where the head pipe would be fitted to my header, and he said "I will hold the torch while you hit the header and flatten out the 'Y' area." I did, they now barely clear, and it's on the street. Don't think it gave me the 15 or more % increase in hp they claimed although it did help some.
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Damn Dudley- I'm sorry that you had problems with the Clifford header. I feel like I let you down by recommending it. Mine fits well; no spacers, rubbing, tight clearances, or whatever; so I beleive that there must be a problem with Clifford's process. I'm sorry for that. I am glad that it seems to have provided a bit of "boost". I'm wondering if you have a cam, or are you planning on one? Some of what I've read indicates that full benefit of the header will come with a cam installation. Be sure to check the header/intake bolts for tightness quite often for a while- mine still tended to loosen up two months later, but seem to have reached a "set" now, and haven't needed to retorque for some time (and I do still check them on a regular basis). Better luck next time.
Castr8r
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I purchased a set of clifford headers for my 86 XJ and the first go around they sent me wrong headers all together, the second time its missing the O2 sensor bung not a big deal just welded one after collector,and the egr tube doesnt allign, had to cut it and am using a rubber hose for the mean time, also the header pipe is contacting the motor where the oil pan bolts to the motor. didnt really notice any gains. I had a rough time with those people, but we all are human.
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I've got a Banks header on the way, anybody had any issues with them?
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Banks has a 2.5L header? Dang I didn't search enough...
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http://www.bankspower.com/products/show/220/54
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I am running a Banks header, along with the Banks Monster exhaust. No complaints. I had a shop install it, so I cant tell you about that. It did free up some top end and along with the exhaust it sounds great. I have noticed some valve tap recently...not right away but after the exhaust opened up a bit the engine sounded different. The header is alot lighter and smaller than stock, so you are able to hear the valves tapping at lower rpms. I can certainly live with it. I have heard of people saying the valve gasket that they give you sucks, but I think it is better than oem. It is alot thicker, and able to withstand higher temps. All around I think Banks is a great engineering company...way better than Pacesetter...Banks offers alot of parts for diesels, as well as intakes.
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Damn Dudley- I'm sorry that you had problems with the Clifford header. I feel like I let you down by recommending it. Mine fits well; no spacers, rubbing, tight clearances, or whatever; so I beleive that there must be a problem with Clifford's process. I'm sorry for that. I am glad that it seems to have provided a bit of "boost". I'm wondering if you have a cam, or are you planning on one? Some of what I've read indicates that full benefit of the header will come with a cam installation. Be sure to check the header/intake bolts for tightness quite often for a while- mine still tended to loosen up two months later, but seem to have reached a "set" now, and haven't needed to retorque for some time (and I do still check them on a regular basis). Better luck next time.
Castr8r
Sure isn't your problem! It is a clifford problem! I am wondering, given the post by Pioneer4x4 that had the same problem I did on his 86, and mine being 87, if there is not a difference maybe in width of head between pre and post 91. Any one know? This would account for the hitting the block on earlier 2.5.s, and Clifford should become aware of that fact since then advertise this header fitting all 2.5's.
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I know its propably not good but could it really be harmful if the header hits the block like that. I figure it could be bad due to heat transfering to oil and block, but what about any other issues, Im asking because I got my clifford headers ceramic coated and didnt think I could bend them or tap them in like Dudley did, or can I? also is there maybe a spacer i could install or no, dont know.
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I know its propably not good but could it really be harmful if the header hits the block like that. I figure it could be bad due to heat transfering to oil and block, but what about any other issues, Im asking because I got my clifford headers ceramic coated and didnt think I could bend them or tap them in like Dudley did, or can I? also is there maybe a spacer i could install or no, dont know.
It's actually not really good to tap them in because I had to do some serious flattening. That will be a place for rust to now start. If you tap yours, you will probably break the ceramic, water can get in there, and the header will rust at that spot. If you read everything that happened to my fitting them, when I first tapped in the edge of the pan a bit in the hopes they would clear, they still didn't, but now the collector was hitting my bellhousing. It took Clifford actually taking the tubes loose from the "Y" and turning them out to clear the bellhousing. You will probably have the same problem. I actually had to flatten a good half an inch to get a quarter of an inch of clearance. If your header is touching your block, chances are you are not getting a good seal on the bottom of the header flange at the head. That will be a problem later on.
I emailed Clifford and mentioned that both an 86 and 87 2.5 application had the same problem of the header hitting, but not a 91 and later 2.5. Could the head be thicker at the place where the manifolds bolt on with a 91 and later (MPI) as compared to 90 and earlier (TBI and carb)? That is all I can think of as the problem.
Sorry, Pioneer 4x4 cuz you spent more than me and have the same problem! :brick:
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Damn Dudley- I'm sorry that you had problems with the Clifford header. I feel like I let you down by recommending it. Mine fits well; no spacers, rubbing, tight clearances, or whatever; so I beleive that there must be a problem with Clifford's process. I'm sorry for that. I am glad that it seems to have provided a bit of "boost". I'm wondering if you have a cam, or are you planning on one? Some of what I've read indicates that full benefit of the header will come with a cam installation. Be sure to check the header/intake bolts for tightness quite often for a while- mine still tended to loosen up two months later, but seem to have reached a "set" now, and haven't needed to retorque for some time (and I do still check them on a regular basis). Better luck next time.
Castr8r
Fergot to mention: Yes, I do have a cam. It is by delta out of Tacoma, WA. I don't have the stats handy, but they had three versions and I took the smallest increase in lift/duration. I just wanted it to breath a bit better w/o affecting idle. Plus, I have a free flow c converter and a single in, dual out Flowmaster. So, I have dual chrome turn down tips coming out from under the bumper, and the sound resonating off the ground is not loud, but deep and healthy sounding. If I did not know it was a 2.5, I would think it might be a small stock V-8 because it does not sound like a v or straight 6 in sound. I like the looks fellow jeepsters give when they hear it. :thumbsup:
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has clifford replyed back to your email, im interested in what they say, theyll probably just avoid you.
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has clifford replyed back to your email, im interested in what they say, theyll probably just avoid you.
Received a reply from Larry at Clifford surprised at what I was saying. Apparently Dave, whom I spoke with on the phone, did not let Larry know what I told him, and that I hung up on him. I will wait to hear back from Larry. He said the last mod made to this header was in '86, and I asked if he checked for fitment issues since in 91 they changed from TBI to MPFI. I did say part numbers changed on the heads which should have caused them to make sure of fitment, although some of the change may have been combustion chamber mostly. Yet, there could have been other mod's. I await his response.
Caster8r, what year is your 2.5?
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Castr8r and pioneer4x4; when did you buy your Clifford header?
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bought mine in may, just for the hell of it I emailed him yesterday to see if he would take mine back and send me some that would fit properly, since he wouldnt take yours back since you modified them. he said it was well past the 30 day time limit, even though I have had this discussion with him 3 months ago and gave up, he told me EBAY was an option. he once again said this was the first time he has heard of this issue, suprise suprise Ive heard this before. he told me to email him some pics which i plan to do as soon as i find my camera cord. and all I have ever talked to over there is Larry. did yours come with a O2 sensor bung welded into it like in the website or egr tube line up, just courious. im thinking they screwed up this batch of headers and dont want to eat the cost since they are expensive to make. when I bought mine he said they just sold the last one a couple of days ago and it would take 2 weeks to make another batch. and another 2 weeks for ceramic coat, and since they sent me the wrong ones at first it took another 2 weeks to get the "right ones," he could have at least used some KY when he ****** me after taking 500.00 from me. Im still gonna fight it.
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bought mine in may, just for the hell of it I emailed him yesterday to see if he would take mine back and send me some that would fit properly, since he wouldnt take yours back since you modified them. he said it was well past the 30 day time limit, even though I have had this discussion with him 3 months ago and gave up, he told me EBAY was an option. he once again said this was the first time he has heard of this issue, suprise suprise Ive heard this before. he told me to email him some pics which i plan to do as soon as i find my camera cord. and all I have ever talked to over there is Larry. did yours come with a O2 sensor bung welded into it like in the website or egr tube line up, just courious. im thinking they screwed up this batch of headers and dont want to eat the cost since they are expensive to make. when I bought mine he said they just sold the last one a couple of days ago and it would take 2 weeks to make another batch. and another 2 weeks for ceramic coat, and since they sent me the wrong ones at first it took another 2 weeks to get the "right ones," he could have at least used some KY when he ****** me after taking 500.00 from me. Im still gonna fight it.
That's interesting. I bought mine about the same time, in early June. I was told somewhat the same thing, and that prices would be going up because the cost of steel was going up. And, when I called and discussed this with them they told me they had never heard of fit problems before. When did you call them the first time? I did not install mine until the end of July, and this is when I called them. Apparently they had already heard from you, but said they had not had anyone call with the problem I was having. They outright lied to me! You are free to tell them, "that's funny. In response to my email to you on September 12th you said no one else is having this problem. But, I KNOW of another man has talked to you about the same problem. Do you want to lie to me again, for I know you, Larry, you are currently receiving emails from him, and he spoke with Dave on the phone late July or early August about his problem."
If it is alright with you, and without giving names, I will confront them also with the information that you talked to them on (whatever the date you give me, if you want), and that on the 12th he emailed you again, and will confront him with the lie. At that point I am going to ask to speak with the president/CEO of the company.
I wish it did not come to this, but outright lying is inexcusable!
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Runnin' behind again, as usual... I've had my header on for about two yrs. I just went outside with a flashlight to check fit and clearances- close, but no cigar! about a 1/2" from the oil pan seam; a little closer to the oil pan at the bottom. I did need a shim at the header bolts to get the washer to level out between the header flange and the intake manifold flange. I removed the EGR system completely, so I didn't open up the "appendix" sticking out of the collector. The O2 oriface is down low enough that I loosened up the wiring harness and stretched the wiring a bit to make a connection- BIG MISTAKE! The wires rubbed on the intake manifold and shorted out; burned up the fusible link (which is mislabeled in the Haynes manual by wrong color code/size). Took me months of frustration to find it, and then found it by accident. Actually' the O2 bung should be even further down to get a sample from all four cyls. instead of just two. Oh yeah, for what it's worth, the head casting number is 403. I did look for my paperwork from when I rebuilt the junkyard engine, but can't locate it offhand, so I'm not totally sure about the time I've had the header. You know, the usual problems with getting older- CRS and Hereafter disease... Sorry for your problems and wish I could be more help.
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Thanks, Castr8r. I placed the bung where it was shown on Cliffords website, so it only works on 3 and 4. It is frustrating with what has happened to pioneer4x4 and me. Oh, well.
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That's interesting. I bought mine about the same time, in early June. I was told somewhat the same thing, and that prices would be going up because the cost of steel was going up. And, when I called and discussed this with them they told me they had never heard of fit problems before. When did you call them the first time? I did not install mine until the end of July, and this is when I called them. Apparently they had already heard from you, but said they had not had anyone call with the problem I was having. They outright lied to me! You are free to tell them, "that's funny. In response to my email to you on September 12th you said no one else is having this problem. But, I KNOW of another man has talked to you about the same problem. Do you want to lie to me again, for I know you, Larry, you are currently receiving emails from him, and he spoke with Dave on the phone late July or early August about his problem."
If it is alright with you, and without giving names, I will confront them also with the information that you talked to them on (whatever the date you give me, if you want), and that on the 12th he emailed you again, and will confront him with the lie. At that point I am going to ask to speak with the president/CEO of the company.
I wish it did not come to this, but outright lying is inexcusable!
found my reciept I recieved them on may 25th so i called probably early June. Yea thats fine with me if you tell larry about me, I plan on emailing larry again on monday with pics and confront him of the lies. I feel that if we both confront him something would get done. even if it does nothing its worth getting him straight so he stops lieing to others. also cant find either 117 or 403 stamped on the head anywhere, just a bunch of other numbers, where exactly should it be stamped?
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Runnin' behind again, as usual... I've had my header on for about two yrs. I just went outside with a flashlight to check fit and clearances- close, but no cigar! about a 1/2" from the oil pan seam; a little closer to the oil pan at the bottom. I did need a shim at the header bolts to get the washer to level out between the header flange and the intake manifold flange. I removed the EGR system completely, so I didn't open up the "appendix" sticking out of the collector. The O2 oriface is down low enough that I loosened up the wiring harness and stretched the wiring a bit to make a connection- BIG MISTAKE! The wires rubbed on the intake manifold and shorted out; burned up the fusible link (which is mislabeled in the Haynes manual by wrong color code/size). Took me months of frustration to find it, and then found it by accident. Actually' the O2 bung should be even further down to get a sample from all four cyls. instead of just two. Oh yeah, for what it's worth, the head casting number is 403. I did look for my paperwork from when I rebuilt the junkyard engine, but can't locate it offhand, so I'm not totally sure about the time I've had the header. You know, the usual problems with getting older- CRS and Hereafter disease... Sorry for your problems and wish I could be more help.
did you notice any problems eleminating the EGR system, what all did you have to take out? do you have to take smog tests in your state? Im tempted to eleminate mine also if i can get away with it.
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No smog tests required in Illannoys, thank goodness! My son did most of the mods when the overhaul was done, including welding shut the hole in the intake manifold under the TBI. The tube from the header to the metering device was rusted thru in several places, so it was probably putting in as much air as it was exhaust- unfiltered at that. We also did a homebrew throttle body spacer- I was "loaned" a chunk of one inch aluminum plate, from which I cut an odd corner. We then bored a hole thru it (I think it was 2"), and after Jay (son) drilled and inserted TBI mounting studs, welded it to the top of the manifold. We also weren't happy with all the sharp edges in the manifold, so he went to work with a die grinder to break all sharp edges. There were a lot of unused vacuum ports when we were done, and they were filled or plugged. Many of the old vacuum lines were cracked or just rotten, so I replaced all of them. So far (approx. two yrs. later), things are holding together well and running great with the exception of the short/fusible link problem.
I'm not sure that an EGR system that's nearly 30 years old is functional anyway, so why not eliminate it? It's a device I could never understand from a functional standpoint. (OK, I'm not the brightest bulb in the package...) Getting rid of it may have gained me a couple of ponies, maybe a horse, and let's face it, our bangers need all the help they can get!
Sorry about running on like a physic woodpecker; I hope I've been some help. L8r, Castor
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I've got a Banks header on the way, anybody had any issues with them?
Bounty Hunter
I installed the Banks Header and It fit Great. Only Issues are Cost. Been On my Jeep for over 2 year and Not a leak, Crack, Loose Nut , You will love it.
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found my reciept I recieved them on may 25th so i called probably early June. Yea thats fine with me if you tell larry about me, I plan on emailing larry again on monday with pics and confront him of the lies. I feel that if we both confront him something would get done. even if it does nothing its worth getting him straight so he stops lieing to others. also cant find either 117 or 403 stamped on the head anywhere, just a bunch of other numbers, where exactly should it be stamped?
Thanks!
I will let Larry know the same. Not sure on the numbers. What I would LOVE to have happen is they admit their fault and send both of us a new set that is rightly made. I told Larry that all it would take is the flange that bolts to the head to which the tubes are welded, since they are long tube headers, to be very slightly off and this would cause the tubes, by the time they get to where they pass by the pan, to not clear. I would think being as small as an eighth of an inch of would make them to be at least an inch off at the "y"'s, if not a bit more.
I will keep you appraised of what Larry emails to me.
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Yea Larry said he could do nothing for me, and told me to modify them. so now i have my intake manifold and header off, and I noticed that the 1st exhaust valve is somewhat red? and the others are sort of whitish, not sure what a burned valve looks like, but im thinking this isnt good, dont think they looked like that when i had it all apart the 1st time. is this something to worry about? could i do a compression test with intake and header off? any advise would help.
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Yea Larry said he could do nothing for me, and told me to modify them. so now i have my intake manifold and header off, and I noticed that the 1st exhaust valve is somewhat red? and the others are sort of whitish, not sure what a burned valve looks like, but is thinking this isnt good, dont think they looked like that when i had it all apart the 1st time. is this something to worry about? could i do a compression test with intake and header off? any advise would help.
I have been in email contact with him and he said he is trying to find out why two of us so close together had the same problem. I have not heard from him in a few days now. Did he just recently tell you he could do nothing? BTW, not sure on the valves, but if your header was hitting your block the way mine was, I wonder if you were getting a good seal at the bottom of the header flange. Did you hear anything in the way of an exhaust leak?
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yea about a week or so he told me that, no exhaust leak. let me know what happens.thanks
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I just finished reading this whole thread....any updates?
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I just finished reading this whole thread....any updates?
[/quoteYea. After being promised by Larry he would get back with me on what he found out, all I have is "the sound of silence".
:brick:
So, I am considering pulling an Alice's Restaurant action. I will make copies of all my glossy photos, copies of the emails between myself and Larry, the essence of the phone calls, reference I and and another man right about the same time had the same problem, and send the the the President/CEO of the company, whom I hope is an offspring of the original Mr. Clifford and tell him how this looks for his company and that there has been a lot of chat on a Jeep website about not buying Clifford stuff if this is the way customers are treated. See if I get a response.
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good luck...
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finally got the header to fit after some banging, and made my fuel pressure regulator adjustable, second day driving it, seems to be ok, but need to rig something up for my egr tube, had to cut and insert a tube, not really sealed well, but a quick fix for now. at idle it is a little rough not sure if its the computer trying to correct the fuel pressure, or because more fuel pressure or exhaust leak at egr tube, but once i rig egr i should be one step closer. also does anyone know if there is a higher flow injector i could get for this TBI, i know the chevys are identical, but not sure any flow rates on mine or theirs any inputs would be appreciated.
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nice... it looks like your doing what i was trying to researce to do before.... but never got to do.
most of the info i found is on a thread here.. do a search for somthing like "2 tbi questions" from what i found the injectors for a 5l have slightly higher flowrate than the jeep 2.5l.. i went as far as to get 2 from a junkyard but never got around to actualy installing them... (ill copy past the link to the thread when i get home and can copy paste)
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heres the link: http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=3563.0 ... the main info you where looking for is
The 7747-64 (jeep) Flows 84cc on my ASNU Machine On Test E @ 20psi. These flow as follows on the same test:
5235203 (4.3l v6)...81cc...47lb/hr.....$34.99
5235279 (5.0l v8)...92cc...50lb/hr.....$34.99
5235206 (5.7l v8)..103cc...55lb/hr.....$39.99
17084327 ( 5.7l cop v8)...112cc...68lb/hr...$49.99 (out of stock)
the 84cc was for 15 seconds which turns into 48#... i got this info from an email with a person that sells injectors...
although since you already made the pressure regulator adjustable you don't really need to use bigger injectors to get more flow... unless you want to drastically change it i guess.
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cool thanks man, i appriciate it. i figure why not put more flow in, you never know