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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: jfrabat on February 25, 2009, 01:47:21 PM
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Ok, so as some of you know, I was suffering from vibrations ever since I put the alloy shafts in my YJ, and the reason for that was that the drive shaft angle in the front was off resulting from the suspension lift. I just never felt the effects because the front driveshaft normaly does not rotate on a YJ when driving around in 2WD. But with the alloy shafts, which did away with the vacuum disconnect, the DS is always rotating, bringing this issue to bear (thanks to those of you that helped me with this issue!).
Now, my RE lift cme with Pro Comp 4* wedges, and when I installed them, most of the vibrations went away immediately, but when I drive 65+, I can still feel a very slight vibration on the steering wheel, so I decided to get rid of the vibes completely by getting the right angle wedge.
So this is what the angles looked like before I put in the 4* wedge (sorry for the crappy pictures!) measured at the TC and axle (basically, I took out the saft and measured the yokes' angles):
Axle:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC10052.jpg)
TC:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC10051.jpg)
As you can see (more or less; sorry about the focus!), the angles shown are about 2* and 7*, so ideally, I would need a 5* shim (which I could not find), but I did find a 6* shim to try. Now, the question I have is if anyone remembers how wide is the pin on the suspension, as the 6* shims I bought do not have the hole drilled and I need to drill it (and I dont want to take apart the suspension to find out, becase I need to drive to the drill press, so it is a bit impractical).
Any takers?
Felipe
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I'd drill a 3/8" hole.
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You're going to be better off with a 4 degree shim if 5 degrees makes it perfect. The pinion comes up some under power.
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You're going to be better off with a 4 degree shim if 5 degrees makes it perfect. The pinion comes up some under power.
Under power, the front springs (keep in mind there are no vibes coming from the rear) should unload, increasing the angle, right? If so, then the angle needed is going to be greater, meaning a 6* wedge should be better than a 4* wedge.
Also, it is more like 5.5 degrees (from what I can tell in the pics), so 6* is closer than 4*. And besides, I already got both sizes; if the vibes get worse, I'll simply switch back to 4* and call it good (the vibrations will be reduced anyway once I make thejump to 33" tires, as there will be less tire rotations per minute at the same speed); I just wanted to get it perfect while I can still feel the vibrations...
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Under power, the front springs (keep in mind there are no vibes coming from the rear) should unload, increasing the angle, right? If so, then the angle needed is going to be greater, meaning a 6* wedge should be better than a 4* wedge.
Also, it is more like 5.5 degrees (from what I can tell in the pics), so 6* is closer than 4*. And besides, I already got both sizes; if the vibes get worse, I'll simply switch back to 4* and call it good (the vibrations will be reduced anyway once I make thejump to 33" tires, as there will be less tire rotations per minute at the same speed); I just wanted to get it perfect while I can still feel the vibrations...
Sorry - missed the part about it being the front, so yes 6 degree better than 4 degree. You might want to check your steering angle after putting the shims in. I never use shims on the front because it messes up the Caster and steering feel.
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Sorry - missed the part about it being the front, so yes 6 degree better than 4 degree. You might want to check your steering angle after putting the shims in. I never use shims on the front because it messes up the Caster and steering feel.
Well, the 4* shims have not had any negtive effects on driveability, so I doubt 6* will, but I do plan to get it aligned once I finish the install... I guess i will find out at that time how much out of whack the steering will be.
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What are the shims made out of? Al or steel?
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Do you have a 4" kit? I've never seen the need for shims in the front of a 4" kit.
Do you know where your caster is set at currently? Keep in mind that you want the pinion angle parallel to the front output shaft, so if you added lift springs and everything else stays the same, there should be no need for shims, period.
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Do you have a 4" kit? I've never seen the need for shims in the front of a 4" kit.
Yes, a RE 4" Std kit...
Do you know where your caster is set at currently? Keep in mind that you want the pinion angle parallel to the front output shaft, so if you added lift springs and everything else stays the same, there should be no need for shims, period.
Shackles are also new (currie shackles to match the rear boomerang shackles), but the angle is most defenetely not the same, as you can see in the pics above (also, the 4* shims significantly reduced the vibrations). Not sure wha the caster angle is, but everything was within specs when I did the alignment before I put in th shims...
What are the shims made out of? Al or steel?
AL
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Becarefull with the AL shims, they crack and split over time.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the RE standard 4" kit comes with one set of shims, and they're for the rear (as with most other 4" leaf kits).
I still say the spring pads on the front axle are pretty much horizontal in stock position, and after the 4" lift. Thus no need for shims.
(http://www.rubiconexpress.com/Images/Products/RE5515/590.jpg)
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Aluminum shims suck, no way I'd run them in the front. Mine fell apart completely, just crumbled.
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Aluminum shims suck, no way I'd run them in the front. Mine fell apart completely, just crumbled.
Agreed, except I wouldn't run any kind of shim in the front unless it was welded to the perch.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the RE standard 4" kit comes with one set of shims, and they're for the rear (as with most other 4" leaf kits).
That is correct.
I still say the spring pads on the front axle are pretty much horizontal in stock position, and after the 4" lift. Thus no need for shims.
But if you look at the angle pictures once again:
Axle:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC10052.jpg)
TC:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC10051.jpg)
There is a difference of about 5*. The way I measured this is that I took out the front DS, and place the yokes vertically, and then put the angle finder flat against the flat part of the yoke. So why is it that I have an odd angle on the front? I have no clue, but the fact is that it is off (as shown in the pics). So what is the best way to correct this?
Aluminum shims suck, no way I'd run them in the front. Mine fell apart completely, just crumbled.
Becarefull with the AL shims, they crack and split over time.
Now, if aluminum shims are dangerous, I guess I better take out the shims completely and simply weld on new perches, huh? That should not be so expensive... Although I gotta take it to someone who will weld them for me (I dont trust the guy that did my rear axle, as he's the same guy who return my Jeep to me with no lugnuts on the rear and who welded the rear off center the first time).
So, if I do weld new perches on, what would be the side effects with regards to caster?
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Curious, have you measured your caster?
Do the vibes disappear when running without the front driveshaft?
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So, if I do weld new perches on, what would be the side effects with regards to caster?
Same as if you use shims. The only way to correct the caster is to cut the welds and rotate the knuckles.
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Wouldn't a front driveshaft with a CV cure the vibe problem? Or if your front DS is a stock one they are not balanced. BH has a point to pulling the front shaft and drive around to see if the vibes go away.
I would agree that shims are not the right answer.
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Curious, have you measured your caster?
Do the vibes disappear when running without the front driveshaft?
I have not measured caster with the wedges on; but before I put them on, it was up to specs (I had just aligned the Jeep). And yes, the vibes do disappear if I take the front DS out (and were significantly reduced when I put the wedges in), so it is defenetly the angle...
Same as if you use shims. The only way to correct the caster is to cut the welds and rotate the knuckles.
Unfortunately, I think that is a bit out of my possibilities; I have to find someone I would completely trust for this job, and I dont have anyone at this time capable of doing this...
Wouldn't a front driveshaft with a CV cure the vibe problem? Or if your front DS is a stock one they are not balanced. BH has a point to pulling the front shaft and drive around to see if the vibes go away.
I would agree that shims are not the right answer.
Not necessarily; you would still need to rotate the front DS so that the angle is correct for a CV shaft. The probem is that currently I have a 5* difference in the angles of my conventional shaft...
(http://www.4xshaft.com/images/2joint_angle.gif)
If I were to go to a CV shaft, I would need to rotate the front angle a bit more, like this:
(http://www.4xshaft.com/images/cv_angle.gif)
And that would defenetly throw off the caster angles... Meaning I would need to cut and re-weld the knuckles as oldjeep pointed out...
So, some background, in case there might be something here that helps:
When I first installed the lift, the vacuum disconnect was still in the Jeep, so once I fixed the rear angle, there were no more vibes. When I installed the alloy shafts, the vacuum disconnect was lost (on piece shaft is used), and so the front DS now spins all the time, so the vibrations started. I took the front DS to be balanced, thinking this was the problem, but it turned out the original DS was bent, so I ordered a Woody shaft. In the mean time, the front shaft stayed off, and no vibes were felt. When the Tom Woods shaft arrived, I installed it, and although the vibes were much less than before, they were still fairly strong (you would start to feel them at about 30~35 mph). So I took out the front DS, and the vibes went away. When I put in the 4* wedges, I reinstalled the front shaft, and the problem was almost gone (now I get some VERY SLIGHT vibrations only at 65 mph).
Could it be that maybe I installed the front springs backward and this is throwing the angles off? I'm pretty sure I did not, but let me know...
According to the RE Installation Instructions (http://www.rubiconexpress.com/Images/Products/RE5515/RE5515.pdf), the double military wrap shoul dgo to the frame, and in this pic you can see that the single wrap is at the shackle...
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00115.jpg)
Anyway, please let me know your opinions, as I defenetly would like to ged rid of all vibes and the wedges (I dont want to kill myself anytime soon due to a failure of my Jeep when I'm driving down the highway - or any other reaso, for that matter!).
Felipe
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By the way, if I were to take out the shims and weld new perches on with the axle rotated, what would be the worse that can happen as a result of the caster being off?
My understanding (a limited one at that) is that the tires would wear a bit more, and turning would be a little more difficult (assuming a 5* additional caster), right?
As it is now (with the shims), the effects on steering are negligeable; not so sure on tire wear. I can probably take the Jeep to be aligned this weekend (I have a 3 year alignment deal, so I can take it as many times as I want over the next year or so) and see where I am at, and make a decision to weld new perches based on that...
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By the way, if I were to take out the shims and weld new perches on with the axle rotated, what would be the worse that can happen as a result of the caster being off?
My understanding (a limited one at that) is that the tires would wear a bit more, and turning would be a little more difficult (assuming a 5* additional caster), right?
As it is now (with the shims), the effects on steering are negligeable; not so sure on tire wear. I can probably take the Jeep to be aligned this weekend (I have a 3 year alignment deal, so I can take it as many times as I want over the next year or so) and see where I am at, and make a decision to weld new perches based on that...
Depends on which way it's screwed up. You could get twitchy steering or loose the automatic return to center motion. Also can cause the jeep to not track if you flat tow. Or you may not notice anything
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Depends on which way it's screwed up. You could get twitchy steering or loose the automatic return to center motion. Also can cause the jeep to not track if you flat tow. Or you may not notice anything
Well, with the wedges, it is basically not noticeable, so I am thinking about the new perches... I guess at the very least, they will be safer than the wedges!
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On flat ground put your angle gace on the bottom of the spindle will give you a reasonable indication where caster is at. You really want to keep atleast 2 degrees of positive caster if at all possible. To me that is more important than the driveline angle. Negative caster most likely will cause it to wander all over the road, and the steering will not return, neither is a good thing, on the plus side caster has no effect on tire wear, chamber and toe in is responsible for that
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My first guess is your correcting the wrong end of the shaft vibe issue. I'm going to guess you put a t-case drop in while you were putting the lift on, This will help make it so you can get rid of the vibes in the rear, but by lowering the rear of the t-case, it raises the angle of your front out-put and screws up the angles of your front shaft. I would get rid of the t-case drop, and adjust your rear pinion angle to correct for any vibes you get in the rear, that way your caster angle will remain correct and you can fix the vibes w/o worryong about the steering and you can use shims much safer. If I'm wrong and you are not useing a t-case drop then just ignore my post.
My $0.02
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You really want to keep atleast 2 degrees of positive caster if at all possible.
Well, it currently has about 3* of caster, but the book calls for 6.5*. This picture was before the alignment (caster was not touched, as it called for a wedge to correct the wedge I already had in place):
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00071.jpg)
Now, looking carefully at the driveline (taking advantage of the fact that the Jeep was lifted, as I was in my office wear!), I noticed that the TC itself seems to be a bit tilted, and this could actually be the cause of the problem.
I should point out that I have no TC drop (at least none that I installed or that I can see), but still, it seems the TC is the problem here...
When compared with the frame, the TC is dropped at the rear a bit and lifted at the front. Of course, this means that to keep the same angle at the front, the axle needs to be rotated up, which could be the cause of my problem. So the big question is, should the TC be parallel to the frame? If so, how do I correct it? Put a spacer where it mounts on the skid plate?
These are pictures of the TC (I took them with the camera phone, so no flash was available; the shadow on the bottom is the frame):
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00066.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00067.jpg)
Here are some pics of the front DS (the angle at both sides is now almost the same, but the TC is pointing up in the front, causing the weird angle that you see):
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00073.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00069.jpg)
Here is the wedge in place (for the time being):
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00065.jpg)
Let me know if you think I can fix this by putting something under the TC to lift i up a bit so that it gets more parallel with the frame, and if so, what should I use to rise it...
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My first guess is your correcting the wrong end of the shaft vibe issue. I'm going to guess you put a t-case drop in while you were putting the lift on, This will help make it so you can get rid of the vibes in the rear, but by lowering the rear of the t-case, it raises the angle of your front out-put and screws up the angles of your front shaft. I would get rid of the t-case drop, and adjust your rear pinion angle to correct for any vibes you get in the rear, that way your caster angle will remain correct and you can fix the vibes w/o worryong about the steering and you can use shims much safer. If I'm wrong and you are not useing a t-case drop then just ignore my post.
My $0.02
I just saw your post after I posted; although there is no TC drop in, I think you are right, it is the TC angle...
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Do you have a motor mount lift?
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Do you have a motor mount lift?
Not that I know of... If it has one (which I doubt), it was installed by the PO.
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A guy I know had a similar problem and just put in a CV shaft in the front and is now pretty happy with it.
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A guy I know had a similar problem and just put in a CV shaft in the front and is now pretty happy with it.
And he did not change the angles up front? I had to rotate my rear axle for the CV shaft, but up front, there is the issue of caster to consider...
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And he did not change the angles up front? I had to rotate my rear axle for the CV shaft, but up front, there is the issue of caster to consider...
Also think about having the stock shaft balanced. Could solve your problems.
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Nevermind, will post more later.
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Can you take a similar pic of the front axle, showing the relationship between the pinion and driveshaft?
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00073.jpg)
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Your rear pinion is too high, it should be below the driveshaft about the same amount that it's currently above it. It will then rotate up to parallel under acceleration. I'd bet this accounts for some high speed vibration.
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Can you take a similar pic of the front axle, showing the relationship between the pinion and driveshaft?
Sorry, posted the wrong one; I took it already, so here it is...
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00068.jpg)
Now, I know it looks wrong with the pinion pointed up like that, but if you look at the TC, the angle is the same (hard to see here, but I checked):
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00069.jpg)
And here you can clearly see the angle (seems to be about the same 5* I have of difference in the front axle) of the TC vs the frame:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00067.jpg)
Now, the RE did come with the TC drop kit, but since I got the CV Shaft, I never installed it. Maybe I can use the same spacers to push the TC up? There is enough space on top... I checked today the motor mounts, and there does not seem to be any lift (I looked at night, but would have to measure the mounts to be 100% sure), but the engine itself seems to be tilted as well... And the rubber on the driver side looks pretty shot.
Your rear pinion is too high, it should be below the driveshaft about the same amount that it's currently above it. It will then rotate up to parallel under acceleration. I'd bet this accounts for some high speed vibration.
Should also be fixed if I tilt the TC, right? I mean, in that case, the rear yoke would be pushed up and the front down, right?
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I put the picture of the TC and frame in AutoCAD, and calculated the angle... Lo and behold, it came out to 86* (remember the shims were 4*?).
Here's the pic with the angle:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/TCAngle.jpg)
Here are the measurements again with the AutoCAD calculated angle (the pics are a bit blurry) for reference; turns out, the difference is 4* as well...
Angle at TC
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/TCDSangle.jpg)
Angle at Axle:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/AxleDSAngle.jpg)
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From the look of the picture it will run perfect with a cv shaft
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This pic shows just what I suspected, your front pinion is pointed up past being parallel with the driveshaft. It should be pointed below parallel, pointed more toward the rear axle than the engine. This is the source of your vibe, removing the front shims will be a step in the right direction.
The Tom Woods pic showing a non-CV driveshaft, shows the TC output parallel with the pinion. Your pinion is pointed sky-high compared to what it should be.
I think you're putting too much thought into figuring the angles, and forgot the basics as the Woody diagrams depict.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00068.jpg)
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From the look of the picture it will run perfect with a cv shaft
Yes, close to perfect, but at the expense of proper caster. A CV shaft isn't the solution for the front of a YJ, proper caster and pinion angle requires the pinion to be pointed downward, nearly parallel with the ground.
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The stock transfer case IS at an angle even stock. One reason is to give the rear driveshaft a better angle. This isn't usually a problem because your front driveshaft doesn't normally turn BUT now it does.
The way Jeep fixed this with the TJ was to use a front CV shaft. They also balanced it. Actually, early TJ's had some vibration issues because they didn't balance it at highway speeds.
Easy to check though is to get rid of the wedges and disconnect the front driveshaft.
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The stock transfer case IS at an angle even stock. One reason is to give the rear driveshaft a better angle. This isn't usually a problem because your front driveshaft doesn't normally turn BUT now it does.
The way Jeep fixed this with the TJ was to use a front CV shaft. They also balanced it. Actually, early TJ's had some vibration issues because they didn't balance it at highway speeds.
Easy to check though is to get rid of the wedges and disconnect the front driveshaft.
I did run it without the wedges and without the front DS; there was no vibrations...
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I have a 95 yj with the same lift and had the same problem.
The only difference was I run a Trutrac in the front which also
makes the front driveshaft turn all the time.
The front of the transfer case points up and the pinion yoke points up.
Not good for a non cv driveshaft.
I had a choice of keeping the stock driveshaft and running a huge shim, (really screwing up my castor)
or going to a cv driveshaft and running a small shim. (2 deg. was about right).
I went with the second option and had good results without messing up my steering.
As been said make sure you use a steel shim what ever way you go.
P.S. Not running any T.C. drop or Motor lift.
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I have a 95 yj and the pinion yoke points up.
But it doesn't point up, it points down (in relation to the driveshaft) in stock form and after most lifts. If a spring lift alone points the pinion up, the springs are designed wrong or the shackles are too long.
I'd bet you would have no vibes with no shims, and stock shackles. If you do, they're likely found elsewhere.
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I think I'm gonna try lifting the TC just a bit, and removing the shims, and seeing how that goes; it's probably gonna fix both angles with one fix...
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My front pinion even with stock springs and shakles pointed up.
I did not care how it lined up with a stock D.S,
I was concerned how it lined up with the T.C.
It was a total of 7 deg. off and I was not willing to shim that much.
With a CV D.S. it was off 2 deg. and that's what I shimed.
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I think I'm gonna try lifting the TC just a bit, and removing the shims, and seeing how that goes; it's probably gonna fix both angles with one fix...
So, just to be sure before I go and screw it up again, this is a good idea?
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No, your front pinion will still be too high, won't make a difference. Your pinion needs to come down below being parallel with the driveshaft.
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No, your front pinion will still be too high, won't make a difference. Your pinion needs to come down below being parallel with the driveshaft.
Sorry, you lost me here a bit... OK, so if I take the wedges off, the angle should be parallel to th ground (orclose to it), right? Then it is just a matter of matching the TC yoke angles with the pinion angles.
The rear seems like it will be fine if I raise the TC, as I have some room there (and as you already pointed out). The front seems more of a challenge, but I would first try it out and see if the vibrations are bearable or not. I doubt it will correct for all of the 4* I need, but if I get 2 or 3, it should bring everything to a bearable level for everyday use while keeping the caster where it should be, right?
I mean it should be much closer to this up front (with less angles, I figure):
(http://www.4xshaft.com/images/2joint_angle.gif)
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jfrabat sounds like you have a good handle on what the problem is and what the fix is. I would look at all your mounts and make sure they are in good shape before you go put money/work into raising the t-case, but if the mounts are good then it sounds like raising the mount a little should fix your problem and let you go back to running w/o the shims.
Remember there is a lot of misconceptions when it comes to how to solve driveshaft vibrations, so don't look for everyone to be giving you good info on shafts. I think trying to put a CV shaft in the front would be opening up a big can of worms that you don't need. Your angles aren't that far off and it shouldn't be real hard to get that to work out so it doesn't have any vibes.
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Thanks, Dodge; I'm actually thinking about first replacing the motor mounts, and then looking at the angle once again. It seems like it will be a real PITA to change the engine mounts while keeping the engine in the bay, but I noticed that one of the rubber mounts (driver side) is broken, and that way I wil lalso be 100% sure that there is no MML installed (I'm pretty sure there is not, but I am not 100% sure). Besides, I will not be home for the next 3 weeks, so I got some time to think about what I'm gonna do... But defenetly, if after the new motor mount the angles stay as they are, I will make a spacer with what I have available and correct the angles as much as possible.
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4 banger motor mounts are cake bud. mine used to tear like every 3 months on my yj i had the auto zone lifetime warrentee. i got so good at em they took me 20 mins. with basic hand tools just put a jack under the oil pan with a block of wood. jack it up so it relieves pressure off it a little and take the mount out, one nut is on the bottom and a bolt from the top and the through bolt and its out. just make sure you do it on completely flat ground and not a slight incline other wise its fun shifting you whole drive train back into alignment.
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I'm with Bounty Hunter on this one. Your front pinion rotated is too high, even for a CV shaft (which you don't have). If anything it should be just below parallel with the ground. But...
First... replace that motor mount. Broken mounts can cause all kinds of funny vibes and it's best to just get that out of the way.
Next... Get rid of the shims. If you have lift shackles then you have the shims backwards anyway, and it's just compounding the problem. To get the front pinion parallel to the TC input you usually have to use shims with the fat end toward the front of the vehicle. This is common more so with CJs, but you may need to use some 2* of 4* STEEL shims to get it parallel.
Factory specs for caster is 8* on a manual and 6* for auto..
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OK, so quick help needed once again: which engine mount should I get? I've seen the two mentioned below on other threads, and I was wondering if the brown dog is really worth the extra dough:
This is the base for me:
Willys Offroad Supply Company's Motor Mount Kit (http://www.willysoffroadsupply.com/52017534K/Willys-Jeep_Parts_-_New_all_years_and_models_Engine_-_Misc_Motor_Mount_Kit.html) which are $34.44 plus shipping, and include 2 front mounts, 1 rear (transmission) mount, 2 insulators, 1 insulator stud and 1 insulator support bracket
Then we have the Brown Dog Offroad Motor Mounts, Ultra-Flex Rubber
(http://browndogindustries.com/images/products/display/CU25690800x600.jpg)
These are $99.95 (no shipping). They claim that these are the most durable mounts out there. Now, they do offer Poly (cheaper), but since mine is a daily driver, I'd rather go with rubber to soften the vibrations as much as possible.
Now, Brown Dog Offroad mentions that "many customers have removed the mount to replace it and then saw the cradle busted into a couple pieces. You may want to order the cradle (Brown Dog Part Number CR2569) with the motor mounts". They also mention that "The original cast aluminum brackets found on many 4-cylinder Jeep of this era weren't designed to handle the strength of these high-performance motor mounts. If you need brackets, order the following kit" and thus they offer a complete set as follows:
Extreme Kit w/ MM, Cradle & Engine Brackets, Ultra-Flex Rubber (http://browndogindustries.com/x2569-0extremekitwmmsmmcradleandenginebrackets-1.aspx)
(http://browndogindustries.com/images/products/display/XU2569-0-300x225-72.jpg)
"Extreme Kit: Includes Brackets, Motor Mounts, and Cradle
Whether you are replacing broken or worn-out parts or upgrading before a part breaks, this kit won't leave you with a sagging engine miles from civilization. The Brown Dog gives you his promise.
All Steel Engine Brackets
High Performance Motor Mounts
Replacement Right Mount Support Cradle
All Grade 8 Hardware or 10.9 Metric Equivalent
All Steel Engine Brackets feature double-welded construction for extra strength. The cast aluminum brackets found on many 4 cylinder Jeeps are prone to failure under the torsional stresses associated with even "easy" offroad trails. Once you've seen a busted cast bracket, you'll know why we continue to use these for our own Wrangler. Identical bolt pattern to the original cast aluminum brackets. No engine block modification necessary. Fits 2.5L Jeep Chrysler engines. If you decide to switch from Motor Mounts to Motor Mount Lifts in the future, the lipless design of these brackets will not interfere with installation.
High Performance Motor Mounts feature all-steel, double-welded construction. These high-strength Motor Mounts bolt into the same locations as the original motor mounts. Designed to stand up to the toughest trails Arizona can dish out. (Sorry Utah, we can't stand the cold.) The original mounts, designed for street driving, simply won't stand up to the torsional forces experienced offroad. Motor Mounts are stock height, thus they maintain engine at stock position at the stock cooling fan.
Replacement Cradle Supports Right Mount designed to withstand severe offroad stresses. Constructed entirely of steel and grade 8 (or metric equivalent) studs, cradle bolts directly to the passenger side pylon, holding motor mounts in place. The original cast cradle is very difficult to find, even in salvage yards. Due to it's location between the motor mount and the pylon, it is difficult to see if original cradle is broken. Yet, because it's especially prone to the torsional forces experienced offroad, numerous 2.5L Jeep owners have found their original cradle broken into multiple pieces.
Ships with Grade 8 Hardware (or 10.9 metric equivalent) required to bolt engine brackets to existing engine block bolt pattern. Also includes new Grade 8 thru-bolts, lock nuts and washers for securing brackets to motor mounts."
Now, these are $289.95; is it worth it to replace everything at once? There's two things that have me thinking:
1. Does a 2.5L engine benefit from having this apparently bomb-proof mount?
2. Is it worth it to get the entire kit if my heep is a daily driver? I would really not like to take the mounts off only to find some other broken parts that I wont have at that time, so I would be stock without transportation for a week or so...
I am thinking to upgrade since I already am gona be doing the work, but I would like to know your opinions...
Comments and opinions welcome!
Felipe
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I use the BrownDog mounts - nice pieces. Currently I have the poly bushings installed with a set of the Superflex sitting on the workbench ready to go in.
#1) The cradle - My cradle was in perfect shape.
#2) The aluminum motor mounts - My motor had 1 of the aluminum ones, I swapped on a factory steel mount from another jeep.
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I use the BrownDog mounts - nice pieces. Currently I have the poly bushings installed with a set of the Superflex sitting on the workbench ready to go in.
#1) The cradle - My cradle was in perfect shape.
#2) The aluminum motor mounts - My motor had 1 of the aluminum ones, I swapped on a factory steel mount from another jeep.
Thanks; I called them up, and they have also customer service on weekends, which is good, as that is when I would be installing it. There are no wranglers here in Miami in Junk Yards (already looked!), so I'm thinking of bitting the bullet and getting the whole set... You think that would be a good investment (expense really, but I still want to rationalize it as an investment!)?
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Thanks; I called them up, and they have also customer service on weekends, which is good, as that is when I would be installing it. There are no wranglers here in Miami in Junk Yards (already looked!), so I'm thinking of bitting the bullet and getting the whole set... You think that would be a good investment (expense really, but I still want to rationalize it as an investment!)?
I got my engine side mounts off ebay. Have you looked and verified that you even have the aluminum ones? One of mine was steel and the other aluminum. Bout a pair of the stock steel ones for about $50 - still have the extra drivers side mount.
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I got my engine side mounts off ebay. Have you looked and verified that you even have the aluminum ones? One of mine was steel and the other aluminum. Bout a pair of the stock steel ones for about $50 - still have the extra drivers side mount.
To be honest, I have not yet verified. But I will, and then I'll look into eBay and other sources for the steel ones if I do have the AL ones. If I cant find anything, then I'll order these.
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And he did not change the angles up front? I had to rotate my rear axle for the CV shaft, but up front, there is the issue of caster to consider...
No change in angles. Not all that critical up front.
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I'd just get the mounts for $99 and maybe the cradle if yours is cracked, and not worry about the motor brackets since it's a DD. You can also find a %10 off code over in the vendor section of Jeepforum :thumb:
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I've never seen a broken cradle or engine bracket, so that's personal preference.
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Personally when I had to swap out my motormounts th last time, I went with a pair for a 4.0l all I had to do was shorten the sleeve the bolt runs through by 1/4" or a little less with the grinder, and they fit/work great. Was much cheaper then the fancy aftermarket ones and stronger than the stock 2.5l ones.
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OK, so I did a bit of math, and according to my rough calculations, if I raise the TC by 1" at the skid plate, the angles would be like this (after removing the wedges):
front diferential: 6*
TC (front): 8*
rear DS angle: 9*
rear differential: 10*
(meaning that the differential is pointing 1* lower; under load, it should be the same angle)
Of course, the measurements I took are rough, so the exact angles will be slightly different, but I think this is close enough to try... By the way, I used the engine mounts as the rotation points... Currently I have aproximately 4* of difference in the front (front diff and TC) and 5* in the rear (in the wrong direction, between the DS and rear diff).
I plan to use a short piece of 1" square tube as a wedge (about 6" long), by bolting it between the skid plate and the TC. I checked, and I should have enough space on top of the TC to raise it 1". Do you think I will need to readjust the shift linkage of the TC?
Felipe
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I moved the transfer case up and down several times before I was happy with its current position.
Did not have to adjust the linkage till the day I stuck the terra low in nor dod I ver worry about the mounting bracket on the body. It has a lot of give and seem to work just fine even if it looks pretty tweeked. In other words do what you want and tjhen simply see if it shifts into all the transfercase positions the way it should if it pops out of 4 low or its hart to get into 4 low adjust it. It's very simple to do and pretty much self explanatory
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I moved the transfer case up and down several times before I was happy with its current position.
Did not have to adjust the linkage till the day I stuck the terra low in nor dod I ver worry about the mounting bracket on the body. It has a lot of give and seem to work just fine even if it looks pretty tweeked. In other words do what you want and tjhen simply see if it shifts into all the transfercase positions the way it should if it pops out of 4 low or its hart to get into 4 low adjust it. It's very simple to do and pretty much self explanatory
Yeah, I pretty much decided to do that... I'll lift the TC one inch so that the angles are a bit better, try it from there...
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I moved the transfer case up and down several times before I was happy with its current position.
Did not have to adjust the linkage till the day I stuck the terra low in nor dod I ver worry about the mounting bracket on the body. It has a lot of give and seem to work just fine even if it looks pretty tweeked. In other words do what you want and tjhen simply see if it shifts into all the transfercase positions the way it should if it pops out of 4 low or its hart to get into 4 low adjust it. It's very simple to do and pretty much self explanatory
He has a YJ so all his t-case brackets mount to the transmission and t-case, so there will be no difference to the brackets no matter ho he moves things unless he gets to the point it interferes w/ the floor.
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OK, so since I was replacing the cat and the cat back (see my other post for reference, but in summary, my ct blew up and filled my cat back with junk!), I took the opportunity that the skid plate was off to raise the TC by using a piece of retangular tubing (1" high by about 3 or 4" wide which I painted with spray-on bedliner).
So, her is how the rear DS angle looked BEFORE the change:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00073.jpg)
And here is how it looks AFTER the TC lift:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/jfrabat/Jeep/DSC00104.jpg)
I think the improvement is noticeable. I have not yet removed the front wedges (I had 4* shims installed), but I drove the Jeep up to 50mph coming back from the shop, and I felt no vibrations. In any case, I will take them out and try running the Jeep with no wedges up front and go from there. If I find I STILL have some angle differences on the front, I may need to use some shims, but they should be less than the 4* I currently have on, and they will be steel this time around... And if I can do without shims, even better!
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Just wanted to comment that the front wedges have been removed, and one, in fact, was starting to crack at the thiner side where the axle mounts on the wedge.
As for the angle, it is not perfect, but the vibes only start at about 65mph and you really start to feel them at 70mph, and since (1) I rearly drive that fast, and (2) I am getting 33" tires soon (which will reduce the DS rotational speed), I dont see major issues with this...
Anyways, thanks for all the advise on this issue!
Felipe