4bangerjp.com
General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: swatsniper1s1k on March 29, 2009, 05:34:37 PM
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I know you all think i should just stick with the 4, but I'm gonna be driving across the country to move, and the 4 banger just won't do the trip. especially since i'm crossing 2 mountain chains and can barely get above 60mph. the rev is too high, the timing is a bit off, and the mixture is wrong and to fix it, i might as well drop the money on the 6 cyl.
However, I'm relatively new to messing around under the hood and i've never done an engine swap. i know i need to get the ax 15 to go with the 4.0 and trash my ax 5. and i know i need to change the main shaft of the np 231 t-case from a 21 spline to 23.
otherwise i need a complete parts list of what i need for this to work cuz i'm 20 and never really worked on cars except for the standard brakes, oil and 1 transmission drop. If anyone can point me in the right direction, it would be much appreciated.
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Buy a 91 and up cherokee and use all the stuff from that. Not worth trying to buy every individual part you need seperately.
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buying a cherokee for a donor sounds pretty good. then i can just throw the 4 cyl into that.
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I agree, don't do it without a complete donor.
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If you are a serious 4Banger guy, you buy a 4.0 YJ or TJ and swap in a 2.5. Even better, you buy a new JK and pull the 3.8 V6 in favor of the 2.5. Regear as necessary.
If you are a serious 4Banger YJ enthusiast, you do the above and -- on a TJ or JK -- add a YJ-type grill you fabricated. :wall: :lol:
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That swap is a lot more work than you think it is. ie; cutting motor mounts off of frame and replacing (read welding on) with 4.0 frame mounts. The smart thing to do in your case and with your experience, is sell your Jeep and buy one with a 4.0.
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^^^What he said, sell it and buy a 4.0L jeep, or swap in a worthwhile engine like a v8. Make the money, time, and trouble worth it. Swapping in a 4.0L will leave you with another run of the mill 4.0L jeep with a hacked up install (read: non-factory).
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Although, if your Jeep is in 'great' condition and not a rust bucket then it might be worth it. With that much work, you might want to consider a V6 or a V8 since it isn't much more.
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Backing up what St. Chevrolet, Bounty Hunter and Jeffy have suggested.
Do some local research as to go to a local 4wd shop and get an estimate (even over the phone) to what it would take to do a swap with you already having all the hardware and wiring. Basically what the labor and time it would take to pull, demol the 4cyl/trans/wiring and install the 6cyl/trans/wiring. Don't forget the fuel system as well.
If you are moving across the country from coast to coast, you will find that even if you have a 6cyl, you are not going to be pulling any real weight in a trailer with a short wheelbase Jeep. The recommendation difference between the 2 engines is only 500#s. To add, your new location may have EPA regs for the new engine. More research to be concerned with.
Either sell what you have, keep what you have, but recommend not to swap anything till you know the details of the removal and install as well as the legalities of the new location of your living state.
I pulled a camping trailer across CO rockies on I-70 last Sept from KC to Moab. It weight 1300#s when I got home so it was heavier when I started out (firewood). I pulled it up through the Eisenhower tunnel going 25 mph at ~5000rpm in first gear. For the 20 minutes it took to climb that, I still am running the 4cyl with the auto. It does fine for getting to/from the trails, driving the trails, and for putsing around on really nice days around town. Yah, more power would be nice, but the <3% of the driving requiring bigger engine, I can live with it.
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the frame and body are completely clean, no rust whatsoever, and i've already invested a lot of work into tires, fender flares, the soft top, a new paint job, a new carpet, and $600+ in a sound system. i'd rather keep that since it is my first car, and just get a new powertrain. last time i suggested the v8 swap, y'all complained about how it would ruin my balance and weight distribution and all. i'm thinking if not a 4.0 then it'll be a fuel injected 305 out of a early 90's camaro. it seems as tho that's my best bet, and there is a bell housing adapter to an ax15. i'm keeping it manual trans. auto is out of the question. the turbo idea is a good power adder it seems, but it's just too much work, having to fab custom manifolds and the like, i just can't afford all of the time the install and the adjusting it will take. supercharging is ok, but the kits are for tj's and are more useful off road then on highways. i'll just work a 305 or 350 with an ax15 and a lift kit that will support that engine...
question is, does the rear diff absolutely need to be changed, or can it stand the 305 option? and if so, what do i upgrade to without breaking the bank or going too hardcore...
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and as for the trailer pulling weight, all i need is a 4'x8' trailer with a couch, a bedframe, a dresser, the bed and some kitchen stuff thrown into it. it'll maybe top out around 600-700 pounds over the empty weight of the trailer.
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Before doing anything drastic, you might want to get the timing and mixture problems corrected. Unless your motor is totally worn out it should do a lot better than barely 60mph. You also mentioned revving to high, what gear ratio are you running? And I really do not understand what the big problem of crossing two mountain ranges is. I live in the Province of British Columbia, Canada, which is pretty well all big mountains. When I leave my home in the Okanagan Valley to head to the west coast, I start out at 1500' above sea level and climb a winding 6.5% grade for 19 miles to 5760' above sea level. My stock 4 cyl. 5 spd. YJ climbed it with no problems, yes it spent a lot of time in 3rd gear and was definitely no ball of fire but it has done it many times. I have since turbo charged it and it pulls that grade as good as a 4.0 now.
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Before doing anything drastic, you might want to get the timing and mixture problems corrected. Unless your motor is totally worn out it should do a lot better than barely 60mph. You also mentioned revving to high, what gear ratio are you running? And I really do not understand what the big problem of crossing two mountain ranges is. I live in the Province of British Columbia, Canada, which is pretty well all big mountains. When I leave my home in the Okanagan Valley to head to the west coast, I start out at 1500' above sea level and climb a winding 6.5% grade for 19 miles to 5760' above sea level. My stock 4 cyl. 5 spd. YJ climbed it with no problems, yes it spent a lot of time in 3rd gear and was definitely no ball of fire but it has done it many times. I have since turbo charged it and it pulls that grade as good as a 4.0 now.
i'm running whatever the stock gear ratio is. the main bearing in the transmission is crapped out too. the motor has 160k miles on it, and it's only a matter of time before it's dead. running 31" tires on it might be part of the issue, but all in all i still need to tow my stuff out there, and my engine will most likely die on the trip or break down and i'll have to drop a grand into getting that fixed at some shop. My current thoughts are throw in a chevy 5.0L or a mopar 5.7L hemi. the biggest problem with the engine is trying to maintain highway flow, which is 5-10 mph over speed limit which is 65-70 mph for most of the drive. towing the trailer, with total weight in the 2000 pound range, will make getting to those speeds even harder. plus instead of snail-ing up to speed i'd like to be able to accelerate pretty well.
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The 5.7L is a much better engine than the 5.0L, then there's the 5.3L which is better than both.
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For options on the engine, you may want to stick with the engine's mfr trans as well and mate that to the 231 you have in the YJ. Or late model GMs have the driver drop tcase so swap in the whole donor. You will need to figure out the tcase output if you want to do a SYE or not. Yes, your rear axle will probably need a change as well since you described a well-used YJ. Similar for the front axle. Swapping axles into a YJ is much simplier than TJs. From whatever donor they come from, you may have the option to do a SOA or the SUA. That will depend on your pocket book.
As for the engine, V8s are not bad to toss into a YJ. The stock YJ trans could possibly handle the hp/tq but since there are lots of miles, I'd look into rebuild or replacement. You should also look into the cooling of the new engine.
Check with your local Jeep club for support to these options. I really think the biggest hurdle will be the new location of accepting the engine swap and meeting the EPA regs. Once that is acceptable, then next hurdle is the pocket book and time clock.
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i've done the pricing, and considered just about every option, but this is a tentative final set up after talking to a number of 4wd shops and some guys from the local jeep club.
Chevy 5.7L fuel injected
Jeep NV3550 Trans
I'll swap the input shaft and do a rebuild kit on my NP231
a Bellhousing adapter from Advance Adapters for the Chevy V8.
and a heavy duty radiator to keep it cool.
if i can get a complete 5.7L with half decent mileage from the junk yard along with the transmission and maybe the attached np231, i'll do a rebuild kit on the trans and t-case myself. should take about a week or so to rebuild. get the 5.7L tuned, and drop it all in. the rear axle is probably the only one i would swap initially, because it's the only axle i use in daily driving. i only break out the front in snow or off roading, so no need for a little while, plus it would start to get too expensive. any specific recommendations on rear axle that can handle the 5.7? and i'm not gonna drop a dana 60 on it...yet ;) as for getting it emissions compliant, according to the 4wd shop that has done a swap like this recently, they just dropped on a catalytic converter from a '99 Tahoe and it passed flying colors.
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Run a Ford 8.8 rear axle, it can handle the 5.7L engine.
Why bother with a jeep transmission and bellhousing adapter when you can get a GM transmission that will bolt right up? Didn't GM use the NV4500? Or other manual options? GM also used the 231C and 241C that will bolt up behind the GM manual transmission. The 231C will use the same SYE's and other mods as the 231J, but the 231C can often be found with a stronger planetary gearset and wider chain set to handle the v8 torque.
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Run a Ford 8.8 rear axle, it can handle the 5.7L engine.
Why bother with a jeep transmission and bellhousing adapter when you can get a GM transmission that will bolt right up? Didn't GM use the NV4500? Or other manual options? GM also used the 231C and 241C that will bolt up behind the GM manual transmission. The 231C will use the same SYE's and other mods as the 231J, but the 231C can often be found with a stronger planetary gearset and wider chain set to handle the v8 torque.
i thought the 231c didn't accept the SYE for the 231j which is why people usually use the front half of the 231c and the back half from the 231j
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i thought the 231c didn't accept the SYE for the 231j which is why people usually use the front half of the 231c and the back half from the 231j
The back halves are pretty much the same, the rear case halves are identical. A 231 SYE will work in a 231C and 233C.
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i thought the 231c didn't accept the SYE for the 231j which is why people usually use the front half of the 231c and the back half from the 231j
The main difference between the 231C and the 231J is that the C has a 5 bolt pattern on the input while Jeeps and Dodges use a 6 bolt pattern. Chevy's also use a 27 spline shaft so, which is stronger then the 23 and 21 the Jeep and Dodge use. Chevy's are usually a HD version so it should have the 6 gear planetary and the 1.25" chain and sprocket set as well.
As for transmissions, I would recommend getting a complete engine and transmission at the least. Although you'll find that 90% of the late models are automatics. The other thing to noise is what 5.7L are you going to use. 5.7L = 350 cid. So it could be carbureted or EFI depending on the year.
If you go with an EFI I highly recommend looking for a early to mid 90's 5.7L which is a 'Vortec' BUT pre-OBDII. Actually IIRC, they aren't truly Vortec's. The engine can be found in C/K50's and C/K100's Actually, I think they had changed to the C/K1000 and the C/K1500. These are the Full-size Blazers and the 1/2 Ton Pick-ups. The manual in them, I think is still a NV3500 if you can find one. The Auto should be a 700R4 which is an excellent transmission.
Also, I think you'll find most of these trucks are 2wd which means you'll have to take the tail cone off the transmission and get a adapter. Adapters are $$$ especially if you don't have to use one. You'll have $$$$ if you can stay away from using adapters. Then use that money to buy a Painless wiring harness that's plug-in.
On and you'll need to get a conversion radiator and not a Jeep one as the inputs and outputs are on the opposite sides as the Jeeps. The 5.7L will want to be routed to the drivers side. Places like Radiatorbarn.com or Jeepradiator.com have them. Otherwise get a universal and jsut drill your own mount.
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JB Conversions makes a 231C HD Super Short SYE, 3.125" shorter than other HD SYE's.
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It will be the same as any other 231 super short sye. It's what I run in my 231j, with a Chevy 6-gear planetary, wide chain setup, and 2lo.
You can have a radiator shop move the lower neck of a jeep radiator to the opposite side for use with the GM engine, and use a straight thermostat housing to reach the upper neck. Or a conversion radiator, whichever is cheapest and easiest.
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i'll check the local yards to see if i can find the GM NV4500, but the nv4500 will run me almost double the $ of the nv3550, and the rebuild kits are much more expensive too. the bellhousing adapter would be cheaper than the ready to bolt up 4500 with a rebuild kit. the 4500 is what i was originally thinking of, but after talking to the guys, it's sometimes problematic on fitting it into a jeep. the 4500 is indestructable, but the 3550 will handle just fine behind the v8 power plant. i personally distinguish 5.7L as fuel injected and 350's as carbed. i'm looking for an EFI 5.7L. the 3550 also bolts right up to my np231, once i replace the input to 23 spline.
btw i just pulled a passenger side mirror that the jeep was lacking. it just didn't come with one, so i pulled one off of a 97. $15 for it and 2 minutes to pull. not bad... :hitit:
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and call me ignorant, but what does SYE, SOA and SUA stand for?
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i'll check the local yards to see if i can find the GM NV4500, but the nv4500 will run me almost double the $ of the nv3550, and the rebuild kits are much more expensive too. the bellhousing adapter would be cheaper than the ready to bolt up 4500 with a rebuild kit. the 4500 is what i was originally thinking of, but after talking to the guys, it's sometimes problematic on fitting it into a jeep. the 4500 is indestructable, but the 3550 will handle just fine behind the v8 power plant. i personally distinguish 5.7L as fuel injected and 350's as carbed. i'm looking for an EFI 5.7L. the 3550 also bolts right up to my np231, once i replace the input to 23 spline.
btw i just pulled a passenger side mirror that the jeep was lacking. it just didn't come with one, so i pulled one off of a 97. $15 for it and 2 minutes to pull. not bad... :hitit:
NV3550 is a Jeep transmission. It is an offshoot from the NV3500 which is used in GM's as well as Dodges. You won't find a NV4500 with a 5.7L OE. NV4500's are found in 3/4 Ton and 1 Ton Trucks while the NV3500 is found in 1/2 Ton trucks, OE. Personally, I would find a C/K1500 or a C/K2500 and get the whole truck. Preferably a side or rear accident. Then pull everything out of it at once. Forget about grabbing a part from here and there as that's going to just complicate the whole thing. Unless you really want to mix-and-match. Like I said earlier though, adapters are expensive. You'll be looking at probably $1000-1500 in adapters.
The engine you want is called a LO5. It was used from 1987-1996 and is TBI and OBD-I.
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and call me ignorant, but what does SYE, SOA and SUA stand for?
SYE= Slip Yoke Eliminator
SOA= spring over axle
SUA= spring under axle
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ok, so if i won't find an NV4500 mated to a 5.7L oe, then how do i get that out of C/K1500/2500 along with the engine and all? just trying to figure this out and how likely i'll be to find the C/K1500/2500 with the engine and trans intact...i haven't seen many of the gm made trucks/suv's with both engine and trans... i feel like such an :asshat: for asking so many questions. but how else do you learn right? :brick:
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It will be the same as any other 231 super short sye. It's what I run in my 231j, with a Chevy 6-gear planetary, wide chain setup, and 2lo.
You can have a radiator shop move the lower neck of a jeep radiator to the opposite side for use with the GM engine, and use a straight thermostat housing to reach the upper neck. Or a conversion radiator, whichever is cheapest and easiest.
There are a lot of differences between other super short SYE's (such as the Extreme Short SYE or Mega Short SYE) when compared to a JB Conversions Super Short SYE.
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ok, so if i won't find an NV4500 mated to a 5.7L oe, then how do i get that out of C/K1500/2500 along with the engine and all? just trying to figure this out and how likely i'll be to find the C/K1500/2500 with the engine and trans intact...i haven't seen many of the gm made trucks/suv's with both engine and trans... i feel like such an :asshat: for asking so many questions. but how else do you learn right? :brick:
Buy the whole truck would be the best option. Then you can sell off what's left. You might even be able to make money on it. The downside is that you need the space for the truck but you're assured all of the OE pieces you might need then some. You'll have to figure out the exhaust. IF you're in an emission state then you'll have to check your local laws. Going with a OBD-I means there will be less computer controlled stuff and a lot less emission stuff. It will probably have a single car instead of a bunch of pre-cats and a cat. Worst case is getting one with dual exhaust with two of everything.
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Buy the whole truck would be the best option. Then you can sell off what's left. You might even be able to make money on it. The downside is that you need the space for the truck but you're assured all of the OE pieces you might need then some. You'll have to figure out the exhaust. IF you're in an emission state then you'll have to check your local laws. Going with a OBD-I means there will be less computer controlled stuff and a lot less emission stuff. It will probably have a single car instead of a bunch of pre-cats and a cat. Worst case is getting one with dual exhaust with two of everything.
thanks jeffy, that actually made a lot of sense...i don't know if it's cuz i'm wasted out of my mind right now, or cuz it is logical, but as for the emissions state, the car is registered in PA,
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Buy the whole truck would be the best option. Then you can sell off what's left. You might even be able to make money on it. The downside is that you need the space for the truck but you're assured all of the OE pieces you might need then some. You'll have to figure out the exhaust. IF you're in an emission state then you'll have to check your local laws. Going with a OBD-I means there will be less computer controlled stuff and a lot less emission stuff. It will probably have a single car instead of a bunch of pre-cats and a cat. Worst case is getting one with dual exhaust with two of everything.
thanks jeffy, that actually made a lot of sense...i don't know if it's cuz i'm wasted out of my mind right now, or cuz it is logical, but as for the emissions state, the car is registered in PA, so i'm not sure whether i'm regulated like cali or not. less computer stuff means good scheisse for me, since i'm new to this and all. i do have the space for the donor truck, the only question is do the local yards have it, and if so how complete is it...i can borrow my dad's tahoe for the drag from the yard to my jeep's current resting grounds. btw, on top of the best top and the 31x10.5's i have added the sound system, 2x 12" subs, 2x 6x9"s, 2 3x5" or whatever the stock front speakers are, plus two amps, all from polk audio, with an alpine head unit. sound systems are the only thing i do well on vehicles, so i'm hoping i can manage to do as much of this swap myself as i can. i've always been good at taking scheisse apart and putting it back together in a working fashion, so maybe i'll get lucky, who knows? hopefully i can learn a thing or two about mech work in general from doing this swap.
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There are a lot of differences between other super short SYE's (such as the Extreme Short SYE or Mega Short SYE) when compared to a JB Conversions Super Short SYE.
Care to share them?
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thanks jeffy, that actually made a lot of sense...i don't know if it's cuz i'm wasted out of my mind right now, or cuz it is logical, but as for the emissions state, the car is registered in PA,
You will want to check the local laws. I know PA doesn't really like mods.
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Care to share them?
Here's the link! But don't take their word for it, do like I did and compare them your self.
http://www.jbconversions.com/pages/products/np231/np231j_short_sye.html