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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: Steve-0 on October 20, 2009, 12:39:01 PM
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Apparently the PO of my YJ put in a front end that does not match. It is missing the track bar or something (per alignment shop) so it twists a bit when I hit the gas and then pulls to the right when I let off the gas and real bad when I hit the breaks. And I think he said the perches are wrong on it too. It is obviously a Jeep axel, but what the hell is it? Also, what does the stabilizer bars do if taken off? They are also off. Is it better for flexing? I have no idea.
Thanks
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Well, here is the answer to one of my questions...
Jeep Wrangler owners have been removing stabilizer links (also known as sway bar links) from the sway bar for off-roading purposes for many years. Some have replaced the links with "quick disconnect" links so they can take them off when four-wheeling and then replace them when driving on regular roads for normal steering support. Sway bars limit the rolling or rolling over of a vehicle when taking sharp turns at higher speeds. When the Jeep Wrangler is maneuvering on four-wheel-drive roads (at lower speeds) it's a benefit to remove the sway bar connection (the sway bar or stabilizer links) and allow less torsion and more maneuverability in the vehicle.
But what about the "twist" in the Jeep as mentioned earlier?
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What you seem to be describing is bump steer.
As for the "bar" - are you talking about the sway bar or the track bar?
Take a picture of your front axle. Most of the most laughable diagnosis I hear on jeeps come from somebodies "Mechanic"
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Is your Jeep lifted? From the amount of bump steer you are describing, it sounds like you probably have some lift and really soft springs. With stiffer springs (on a YJ) you can remove both the track and sway bars and it keeps handling fairly well, nothing like what you describe.
A picture would help a lot.
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i removed the sway bar a long time ago and didn't notice any roll, but i do have a pretty stiff suspension; i also had no behaviour like you describe. Some of the symptoms you mentioned seem to point to the fact that your jeep rolls somewhat sideways (at an angle), usually the way to tell is to roll it forward for 20 feet or so with the wheels straight, stop the vehicle and measure the distance between the center of the u-bolt plates on each side between front and rear and then diagonally - the result should be the same between measurements - if it isn't then you know there's a problem (can also be a bent leaf). The alignment shop should have already done that, you might want to ask them and see if they did and what was the result.
The softer the ride the more you notice the sway bar. The higher the lift the more you would notice the track bar - that's just because the point where the axle is bolted to the leafs is so much farther down from the leaf eye bushings as you have lift. Some guys here run with no track bars, since i have not tried it i can't really give a first hand opinion on it, but if I would be to guess if you would compare a SOA that gives you 3'' of lift with stock leafs (not sure if it's accurate but probably close enough) compared to a SUA 3'' lift you would probably notice less if you remove the track bar in the SOA setup.
you can see if you're missing the track bar and/or sway bar right away by looking under your jeep, the track bar is a bar that goes between the frame to the axle in the front, bolts onto a support on the drivers' side frame rail and on another support on the axle tube on the passenger side, the sway bar links you can see behind the front wheels, the links are connected to the ubolt plates and go to the sway bar from there.
like others said, a picture (or more) of your front axle would help to get better answers
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Yes, I will get some pictures for you guys in a few hours. And it was the drag link, not track bar.
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You wouldn't be able to drive it without a draglink, it's part of your steering linkage and connects the steering box to the tierod. The tierod is the steering bar between both tires that turn the steering knuckles.
Even without a swaybar or trackbar, your jeep should not handle as poorly as you describe. Sounds like there's other issues at play here than simply missing parts.
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Maybe some leaves are broken.
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Yes, I will get some pictures for you guys in a few hours. And it was the drag link, not track bar.
Well that would certainly make it swerve wildly :drink:
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Ok, this info came from LesSchwab. Those of us from the Pac NW know who these guys are. Take a look at these pictures and tell me if there is something missing here... See the first picture? Please forgive my poor drawing but you get the point. Isn't there supposed to be something there? And as you can see there were new perches welded for the rear. See the tag. Can you tell me what rear end I have? I think it still said 4 11 gears. The last one is the stamp on my front end. What can you tell me?
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/92009079.jpg)
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/Jeep013.jpg)
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/Jeep016.jpg)
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/Jeep017.jpg)
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/Jeep019.jpg)
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/Jeep021.jpg)
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/Jeep005.jpg)
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You have a YJ with the trackbars removed, this gets done to improve flex so long as the spring bushings and shackle bushings are in good shape it should not really have to much of a negative impact on street driving and handling. It actually gives the Jeep a somewhat softer ride on the street
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yep, no trackbars or swaybar - trackbars are pretty easy to install, you will need a ratcheting strap and the bars from a junkyard (the nuts/bolts too), you could try them out and see how much improvement you get, but i recommend to have it checked out afterwards for alignment (not just the front) since you have a lift and no relocation brackets for these.
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You defenetly dont have a trackbar, but this should not be the cause of the problem (it probably increases the effect, but it is not the cause). My reasoning is that (1) lots of people run YJ's without trackbars (my rear one is removed, for example, and many other remove both rear and front), and (2) IIRC, CJ's came without the track bar. Now, if you want to install the trackbar, you can also get a JKS telescoping trackbar, which you can loosen up for offroading (which increases flex and softens the ride) and tighten up for street driving. I run one of these, and I am happy with it. But again, I think there is something else causing the problem... Maybe bump steer or something...
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Check for worn bushings and broken leaves. I´m assuming the alignment shop has already ruled out worn bearings and ball joints.
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Check for worn bushings and broken leaves. I´m assuming the alignment shop has already ruled out worn bearings and ball joints.
x2 on worn/bad bushings - with not trackbars that would explain the problems you're having.
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Was anyone able to recognize the axle on the front and also see the tag on the transfer case and rear end? Also, did you notice that the studs under the u-bolt plate (assuming the bolt up point for lower control arms or is it for a shock mount?). There isnt another bracket for the control arms anyway.
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Was anyone able to recognize the axle on the front and also see the tag on the transfer case and rear end? Also, did you notice that the studs under the u-bolt plate (assuming the bolt up point for lower control arms or is it for a shock mount?). There isnt another bracket for the control arms anyway.
That's a stock D30 front axle for a YJ. You can't see them in your pictures but the pins on the front u-bolt plates are where the sway bar would hook up if it were there.
Tcase is just a stock NP231
Rear axle is just a stock D35C
Gear ratio is 4:10/4:11 like every other 4 cyl YJ
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Well, the guys from Les Schwab said that they checked everything from bushings to ball joints and everything looked fine. They said that the perches were obviously welded on and the shackles up front were also welded on. So I concluded the conversation with it could possibly be a bit out of alignment and missing a track bar. But he didnt have much to day of a solid answer. He said that the pitman arm was in the way for a track bar. But I thought they were bent to fit around the pitman arm. I am at a bit of a loss here. But i dont really think that a front drag link would make it feel like its twisting like it is on the road. You can really feel it in the rear when you hit 5th gear on the freeway. Something is lose and I cant figure it out.
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Well, the guys from Les Schwab said that they checked everything from bushings to ball joints and everything looked fine. They said that the perches were obviously welded on and the shackles up front were also welded on. So I concluded the conversation with it could possibly be a bit out of alignment and missing a track bar. But he didnt have much to day of a solid answer. He said that the pitman arm was in the way for a track bar. But I thought they were bent to fit around the pitman arm. I am at a bit of a loss here. But i dont really think that a front drag link would make it feel like its twisting like it is on the road. You can really feel it in the rear when you hit 5th gear on the freeway. Something is lose and I cant figure it out.
The perches are always welded on - or they fall off ;)
Shackles welded on? Welded to what? Shackles are the little bar things that connect the leaf springs to the frame.
I'd say for starters that the guy at Les Schwab doesn't have a clue. Find a local jeep guy with a clue to look at it.
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No, I meant that new perches were welded on. Like someone either broke them or something and new ones were welded on, but only the lower part of them. I think you can see them in the pictures. As far as the shackles, I thought they were supposed to be able to move for flex. Can you see the shackles in the front? Or do I not even have any in front and it is just a dropped spring perch?
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No, I meant that new perches were welded on. Like someone either broke them or something and new ones were welded on, but only the lower part of them. I think you can see them in the pictures. As far as the shackles, I thought they were supposed to be able to move for flex. Can you see the shackles in the front? Or do I not even have any in front and it is just a dropped spring perch?
Dropped spring perch? Are you talking about the lower shock mounts that look like they've been welded?
A spring perch is the pice which is welded to the axle tube and sits between the axle tube and the leaf spring.
As for shackles, I can't figure out what you think a shackle is
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This is what I am talking about...
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/jeep.jpg)
There is a shackle in the rear of the leaf spring and non in the back springs at all.
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Apparently the PO of my YJ put in a front end that does not match. It is missing the track bar or something (per alignment shop) so it twists a bit when I hit the gas and then pulls to the right when I let off the gas and real bad when I hit the breaks. And I think he said the perches are wrong on it too. It is obviously a Jeep axel, but what the hell is it? Also, what does the stabilizer bars do if taken off? They are also off. Is it better for flexing? I have no idea.
Thanks
Looking at the picture, I can see it has a lift. Know what kind it is? looks like a 3-4" lift. The axles are stock. The picture of the ID Tag even tells me it has 4.11:1 gears which means it's the rear tag. You're only missing the track bar not not the drag-link. I would say that the pull you're experiencing is bump-steer. You have a lot of angle between the drag-link and the tie-rod. That combined with the lack of a track-bar and soft/old springs and you'll get bump-steer. When the suspension compresses or extends enough, it causes the distance between the drag-link ends to change (gets longer or shorter) and because of it's alignment, it's not able to cope so the wheels turn. If you hold the steering wheel softer, then you should see the steering wheel turn instead. On hard acceleration it should turn left and on hard braking it should turn right.
What the track-bar does is prevents the suspension from cycling too much. This is bad for off road but will help on road. You could put a track bar on BUT you need to make sure that it's parallel with the drag-link. If it isn't, it will bind with the drag link as it cycles. Since you have a lift you'll need a longer track-bar since the distance is greater then the stock bar can go. Most lift companies sell track bar extension mounts BUT you will need to use this with a dropped pitman arm since that will change the angle.
You could add a dropped pitman arm (and leave the track bar off) or flip your tie-rod so they are on top of the knuckles to help lessen the bump steer.
BTW: the front track bar mount has a small U shaped bracket inside. That should come out since it's not bolted in. Although, in the pictures it looks like it's being held in with rust/mud.
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This is what I am talking about...
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/jeep.jpg)
There is a shackle in the rear of the leaf spring and non in the back springs at all.
Oh and now that I see this, it's bumpsteer. The shackle reversion is also attributing to the soft suspension and amplifying the effects of the bumpsteer....
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DING DING DING!!! Thats it. It doesnt really pull to the left at all at hard acceleration, but definitely goes to the right when I let off the gas and especially when I hit the breaks. I also noticed that my steering wheel will move slightly to the left when I am going fast enough on a road with whoops to compress the springs. So the shackles were reversed? What gain would that hold? And since the axle is stock, do they all have the studs for control arms on the ubold plates? Cuz there isnt anything on the frame to accept any control arms. Thanks guys.
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That picture explains it all. Someone did a shackle reversal.
And you are saying that there are no shackles on the rear springs at all? got a picture of each end of those springs?
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DING DING DING!!! Thats it. It doesnt really pull to the left at all at hard acceleration, but definitely goes to the right when I let off the gas and especially when I hit the breaks. I also noticed that my steering wheel will move slightly to the left when I am going fast enough on a road with whoops to compress the springs. So the shackles were reversed? What gain would that hold? And since the axle is stock, do they all have the studs for control arms on the ubold plates? Cuz there isnt anything on the frame to accept any control arms. Thanks guys.
The reversal soften the suspension and gives you a bit better tracking.
The studs on the front U-bolt plates are for the sway-bar which also seems to be missing. If you look on the underside of the frame you should see two screw holes on each rail. One set should be around just behind the steering box. Those hold the straps which hold the sway bar. The sway-bar isn't what's causing the bump steer but if you don't like how teh body is rolling on turns then you might consider putting that back on.
Your Jeep does not use control arms since it has leafs. Control arms are for coil spring suspensions.
(http://image.automotive.com/f/tech/9084512+soriginal/0706_4wd_05_z+jeep_wrangler_yj_lift_kit+front_suspension.jpg)
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The shackle is defenetly reversed. Some people say its better, others say it is not (I am in this latter group), so there's a lot of personal preference involved. In this case, the shackles should be on the rear of the spring (not shown in the photo). Can you post a picture of the rear part of the front springs, to see the shackle?
I would consider putting the sway bar on (with disccos) and would leave the track bar out, but this is more for controlling the body roll than it is for the bumpsteer. I think the others have pretty much covered the issues with the bumpsteer...
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(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/92009079.jpg)
By the way, I dont know if it helps in the case of a shackle reversal, but on a normal lift (with shackles on the front), you typically use a dropped pitman arm (from the pic, it seems you have the stock one) for a 4" lift (which I assume you have based on the arch of your springs).
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That picture explains it all. Someone did a shackle reversal.
And you are saying that there are no shackles on the rear springs at all? got a picture of each end of those springs?
that will make it a stiff ride,
x2 on the pics for front and rear springs (both ends).
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My bad. There ARE shackles in the rear, just couldnt see them as they are tucked away behind the bumper. So both front and rear have shackles in the back of the springs. looks like possibly some home-made shackles for the front and the rear has stock-looking shackles (kind of bone shaped).
Here are the fronts...
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/jeep2.jpg)
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OK, so you do have the front shackle...
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(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk304/elwood9061/92009079.jpg)
Oh, and one more thing; a sttering stabilizer will probably help reduce the effects a little... Just a thought, as they ussually are about $35. Keep in mind, though, that this is a band-aid fix and leaves the main issues unresolved!
I am not sure if there is one or not (seems there is, but I dont know the condition, as it looks like the stock one), but just in case...
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I would definitely start with a drop pitman arm.
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Oh, and one more thing; a sttering stabilizer will probably help reduce the effects a little... Just a thought, as they ussually are about $35. Keep in mind, though, that this is a band-aid fix and leaves the main issues unresolved!
he's got one on (looks stock so probably not in good shape) - but yeah, x2 a new one would help.
also Jeffy mentioned the drop pitman arm, that helps too.
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or a tie rod flip...
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Well, if he had no shackles, he wouldn't have bumpsteer.
*** Ah, see first pict shows a shackle
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Well, if he had no shackles, he wouldn't have bumpsteer.
Well, he would have LOTS of bump, though! :roflol:
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I'm going to blame the bump steer on the non lift Pitman arm on the steering box.
If your in the PNW near Portland Oregon go to Leonard's Off-road and Fab in Hillsboro.
Looks like you have a lift+ a shackle reversal, the front looks like a kit. There used
to be a outfit in Portland that built one that looked like that, can't remember their name.
My track bars/panard rods have been gone for 10 years, I still run the swaybar, my lift is just
soft enough it has bad manners on road under hard braking without it...
(RC springs and Black Diamond Shocks.)
Dave
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I'm going to blame the bump steer on the non lift Pitman arm on the steering box.
If your in the PNW near Portland Oregon go to Leonard's Off-road and Fab in Hillsboro.
Looks like you have a lift+ a shackle reversal, the front looks like a kit. There used
to be a outfit in Portland that built one that looked like that, can't remember their name.
My track bars/panard rods have been gone for 10 years, I still run the swaybar, my lift is just
soft enough it has bad manners on road under hard braking without it...
(RC springs and Black Diamond Shocks.)
Dave
Well, it is for sure because of the steering geometry. The suspension is just making it more apparent.
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I put my lift on back in the day, didn't have the tools to get
the pitman arm off so I installed the lift and drove to the
shop to get the pitman installed. Definately had wicked bump steer.
Meant to note that in my last post and got distracted...
Dave
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Thanks. I guess I dont get the steering geometry, why lowering one end of the drag link would reduce or eliminate bump steer.
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Thanks. I guess I dont get the steering geometry, why lowering one end of the drag link would reduce or eliminate bump steer.
it's at an angle, when the front of the frame goes down in braking the distance between the steering knuckle and the pitman arm remains the same (distance between 2 vertical lines thru the center of the holes in the knucke and pitman arm) but the projection of the drag link to the horizontal is longer b/c the angle of the drag link to the horizontal decreases (the pitman arm moves towards the ground along with the frame) - that pushes the 2 away from each-other - the smaller the angle at which the drag link rests the lesser the effect. Let me know if i explained it ok, if not i'll give it another shot in different words.