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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: bammerman on February 02, 2010, 02:32:20 PM
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I have been looking around people's builds and see there are many different lifts and never seen reason's as to why someone chose to go one route or another. If you factor out cost, but be reasonable nothing like 1-2k +, what would you put in your jeep for better ride, clearance, etc...
I am looking at going with a 5.5" Spring Over Conversion Suspension System from Rubicon Express for $309.00 and picking up a CV-type driveshaft and slip yoke eliminator for it. http://www.xtremeterrain.com/rubiconexpress55springoverconversionsuspensionsystem.aspx
With what I was reading on other sites that said the SOA is a better ride and crawler style lift than a SUA.
(Jeffy made a great post on SOA http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,45.0.html) and here is a small discussion about it. http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php/topic,7495.0.html
anyone agree or disagree, wish you did something differently? I want to go from a 31" tire to a 33" maybe a 35", figured this would be cheaper to do than my 4.88 gear swap at the moment. (sorry bored at work and I like the discussions here).
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I'm old school I guess. I like SUA VS. SOA.
I would either buy some RE 4.5XD springs OR have someone like Deaver make me some. Alcan makes nice springs too. They cost more than the off the shelf springs but they are worth it.
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No option for coils? ???
SOA, ride and flex can't be beat.
....except with coils. :lol:
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Off the shelf, it's SUA for sure. it really depends on what you're looking for. If you're willing to have custom leafs made then that really opens things up without having to go to 1/2 elliptical, multi-link coils or coil overs.
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....except with coils. :lol:
Can the coil conversion really be a "realistic" price 1-2k? I added them for ya anyways ;)
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Off the shelf, it's SUA for sure. it really depends on what you're looking for. If you're willing to have custom leafs made then that really opens things up without having to go to 1/2 elliptical, multi-link coils or coil overs.
I was looking at SUA's from RE and even if i have to by a SYE and CV shaft the SOA seems cheaper. maybe I am looking at wrong sites.
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I was looking at SUA's from RE and even if i have to by a SYE and CV shaft the SOA seems cheaper. maybe I am looking at wrong sites.
The only way the SOA is cheaper is if you aren't buying new leafs. ANd your current leafs better be in decent condition. Otherwise you'll want to buy the 1.5" RE SOA leafs.
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The only way the SOA is cheaper is if you aren't buying new leafs. ANd your current leafs better be in decent condition. Otherwise you'll want to buy the 1.5" RE SOA leafs.
Hmm I will have to ask the guy helping me with my SOA. I only have 70k on the rig, not a good gauge of how good the leafs are though.
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Hmm I will have to ask the guy helping me with my SOA. I only have 70k on the rig, not a good gauge of how good the leafs are though.
If you wheel it a lot then you can go through springs in a season. If not then they will probably be fine. Although you might want switch to all rear leafs still.
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Can the coil conversion really be a "realistic" price 1-2k? I added them for ya anyways ;)
The rear is obviously easier, but even having a shop do the fab work I have less than 1k into the rear of mine parts and labor. Front won't be that cheap though, which is why I am SOA in the front for now.
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For best cost/benefit ratio: SUA lift kit. For extreme trails, install some lockers and go three wheeling!
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SOA front/3link Rear.
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Have any of you with SOA's ran into problems with the stock nerf bars on the sides? My guy who is doing my lift and doing a reverse shackle says that the side nerf bars might get into the way.
here is a link to what I am talking about in case I am using wrong term.. The bars under the door. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2175/2484131815_bca1f168b1.jpg
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Have any of you with SOA's ran into problems with the stock nerf bars on the sides? My guy who is doing my lift and doing a reverse shackle says that the side nerf bars might get into the way.
here is a link to what I am talking about in case I am using wrong term.. The bars under the door. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2175/2484131815_bca1f168b1.jpg
take em off and put rock sliders on? and you arent doing the work?
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maybe i missed it (just browsed thru some of the posts) not sure if anyone mentioned it - there's also axle wrap with SOA, so that should also be considered.
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Have any of you with SOA's ran into problems with the stock nerf bars on the sides? My guy who is doing my lift and doing a reverse shackle says that the side nerf bars might get into the way.
here is a link to what I am talking about in case I am using wrong term.. The bars under the door. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2175/2484131815_bca1f168b1.jpg
Well, I don't run a shackle reversal since thet don't really do anything for you offroad. Not to mention you will have more bumpsteer with a SOA unless you go hi-steer. I think what your friend is saying is that yot nerf might be mounted too far forward and not allow the mounting of the new hanger. Although. The shackle should be mounted around the stock frame mount. I think even if it's right behind the hanger you'll be ok. If not then just remove the nerf bars.
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I'd never do a reversal. Nose dives pretty bad on the road, causes problems climbing hills, and like Jeffy said it magnifies steering issues. The pro's are not worth the cons.
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Sell your leafer and get a coiler......cheaper to mod as well.....stock springs, 2" poly spacer, 1.5" body lift, no SYE and running 35s.
Biggest thing to consider, wheel/tires - size and wheel offset. Go from there. If you go too big in wheel/tire size, you'll need different axles to handle the weight and wheeling the size of the tires. Keep wheel/tire size acceptable, then you may only need to swap out your axle. (I haven't read if you are planning to do something with the stock D35 rear axle.) Get estimates for r&p and lunchbox lockers install, and possible unit bearings, ball joints and u-joints.
The SOA gives you better approach angles due to the location of the front shackle relative to the axle. Introduces lots of other problems using stock axles, ie steering, weld-on perches. Has higher il-effects than lift springs SUA in off-camber situations. Swap in 78/79 Ford F250 front axle for SOA and it gives you better options, ie bigger brakes, SOA already (5/8" off center of YJ springs (absorbed in bushings or add in offset shackles)), high steer capability, bigger r&p, still high pinion, same 297 u-joint but bigger shafts, shock mount relocation, much much heavier axle. Swap rear axle from same truck to the rear (usually D60), requires welding spring perches and shock mounts and redoing rear ds. Regear to match your tire size. Wheels will need to be 8on6.5. Gear them to work with your tires. SUA introduces greater potential for axle wrap. SOA usually requires a SYE for the stock tcase.
SUA is a more appropriate for the milder wheeler. Less problematic in comparison to SUA. Same situation with your axles. Need to figure out what will work with your choice of tires/wheels. The stock D35 rear axle can be mod'd to handle 35's moderately. Swapping in another axle (8.8, 8.25) is viable option. The front D30 axle should be able to handle 35's easily. There are upgrade areas for it as well. SUA is more of a bolt in situation. Add a slight body lift and motor mount lift to drop the rear output of your tcase. It is similar to adding drop brackets to your crossmember. Lift the front or drop the rear of the driveline. Or add SYE ($200 or so for tcase and $200-300 for rear ds) and need not worry too much.
Comparing the upgrade costs to axle swap cost is difficult. Many do their own work and there are slight differences in hardware you choose to use with them. Labor costs are variable in different locations across the US. Making your stock axles stronger can be costly in parts, but they will last. Swap in heavier axles (right choice of axles), then rebuild and install will also last.
For your $2k budget, I'd go 33's, 4.56 in axles, lunchbox lockers, swap in either 8.8 (Explorer 95-01) or late model XJ (8.25, upgrade to 29spline shafts) or strengthen D35 (Super35), SUA with 3.5-4" lift springs (look for Baja bushings), longer shackles, rebuild axles to handle (bearings, ball joints, ujoints, etc), SYE, front/rear bumpers with recovery points, winch (8000#). Then in time, add 1.25" body lift, TJ flares, flat belly and go to 35's. Once you get more and more experience, better job, more income, etc., then look into going bigger tires, swapping in Hemi driveline, bigger axles, toter, trailer, etc...
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For your $2k budget, I'd go 33's, 4.56 in axles, lunchbox lockers, swap in either 8.8 (Explorer 95-01) or late model XJ (8.25, upgrade to 29spline shafts) or strengthen D35 (Super35), SUA with 3.5-4" lift springs (look for Baja bushings), longer shackles, rebuild axles to handle (bearings, ball joints, ujoints, etc), SYE, front/rear bumpers with recovery points, winch (8000#). Then in time, add 1.25" body lift, TJ flares, flat belly and go to 35's. Once you get more and more experience, better job, more income, etc., then look into going bigger tires, swapping in Hemi driveline, bigger axles, toter, trailer, etc...
Little over 2K there, don't you think?
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I'd never do a reversal. Nose dives pretty bad on the road, causes problems climbing hills, and like Jeffy said it magnifies steering issues. The pro's are not worth the cons.
mmm? are you sure because it makes a softer ride quality and is a must for rock crawling.
i plan on doing it.
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mmm? are you sure because it makes a softer ride quality and is a must for rock crawling.
i plan on doing it.
why a must for rock crawling? (just wandering what the difference would be, not saying it's either way)
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I wouldn't call it a must, but it does help your approach angle and really helps when climbing near vertical objects (you don't get the axle pushback/shackle inversion that wants to happen with a front shackle). A set of anti inversion shackles solves part of the problem.
The nose diving is only really prevelant with the stupid shackle completely below the frame kits, or if you are running a shackle reversal SOA with really soft springs. Take a look at a leaf spring pickup some time and notice where the shackles are ;)
Causes problems climbing hills? Don't get that one at all.
That being said, I don't run a shackle reversal on my jeep because there is not enough gain for the amount of work it would take to do it right.
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When my buddy was running the reversal he had issues with the front unloading on hills, springs went to full flex all the time and made it break traction easier. It was the under frame mount type if it makes a difference.
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It was the under frame mount type if it makes a difference.
Makes a huge difference. The "kits" that mount the shackle completely under the frame rather than through cause all sorts of issues.
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What's a shackle?? :whistle:
I love this thread...because it doesn't affect me one bit... :thumbsup:
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What's a shackle?? :whistle:
I love this thread...because it doesn't affect me one bit... :thumbsup:
Yup - I don't think he has once suggested that he was going to throw a pile of money at someone and have them build a rig for him :dance:
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why a must for rock crawling? (just wandering what the difference would be, not saying it's either way)
"This is where the debate arises. As your vehicle comes up to an obstacle, the front axle will want to move into the obstacle if the front shackle is at the front of the leaf pack. Proponents of the front shackle believe this is good because in theory it forces the tires to have more traction as the spring is being compressed and pushing the axle forward at the same time."
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The shackle reversal tends to require longer splines for the front DS since the axle will move down and forward when drooping, rather than down and back as with a front shackle setup.
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If I had the money and really wanted the extra 2.5" of lift, I'd buy a Rubicon Express 4.5" kit.
With that said, I'm pretty happy with my 2" Black Diamond lift and I have no plans to change it or go any higher. When it comes time for stuff to start getting replaced, we'll see.
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why a must for rock crawling? (just wandering what the difference would be, not saying it's either way)
its the way the suspension performs. with the shackle up front when you are climbing up rocks the wheel fights its way up and with the reversal it forces the axle forward and the actually helps climbing.
there was an episode of Xtreme4x4 with it on there.
here is a read up of just the driving performances. but the same goes for offroad
http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/reviews/more97/more2.htm
Normally when driving forward and the tire encounters a bump, the bump wants to push the tire back and up, while in the normal configuration as the spring compresses it wants to move the tire forward because the shackle swings forward (well, to get technical the bump does not "want" or "push" anything, but you get the picture without complicated force explanations) - the result is that when you encounter a bump your Jeep gives you more of a jolt than it has to. This is most pronounced with highly arched lift springs, which is one of the big reasons why Jeeps with flatter stock springs (like the Wrangler YJ) have a fairly reasonable ride when compared with there predecessors (the CJs).
Now when you encounter a bump with a shackle reversal the bump wants to push up and back and the as the spring compresses it naturally moves backwards. All is right with the world. The effect is quite noticeable and it turns what used to be a jarring, tooth rattling ride into a much smoother more pleasant experience. In addition, an added benefit is that bumps now increase camber instead of decreasing camber and that helps result in slightly more stable steering and less wander over bumps.
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Little over 2K there, don't you think?
Maybe, but if he 'shops' for used items that bolt right in, this saves a lot of $ off new and labor it is DIY.
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Yup - I don't think he has once suggested that he was going to throw a pile of money at someone and have them build a rig for him :dance:
You need to control your jealousy.....I could have done it myself....but it probably would have ended up costing more.... :fish:
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and labor it is DIY.
Although I set up my own gears, for most people that is not a DIY project and it's fairly expensive to pay to have it done.
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The good thing about getting this lift from this guy he is going to use my existing air conditioner unit and make an auto inflate and deflate for my tires for when I want to crawl. Seemed kind of cool. I am having him a rig built, but I am trying to do what I can without tools like a welder and a shop just outside my apt.
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The good thing about getting this lift from this guy he is going to use my existing air conditioner unit and make an auto inflate and deflate for my tires for when I want to crawl.
details please
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oh he is taking the thing by my radiator out and we are installing a electric fan, and using the air conditioner pump and modifying it for me to flip a switch to deflate my tires for crawling to like 10lbs (he said it is better than hard tires, they glide over the rocks) and re-inflate them when I am done. Going to be hooked to a toggle switch and gauge in cab. I am not 100% on the details. I saw it in his crawler. when I get it done I will take a picture.
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details please
It's an OBA system. Since he's got a Sanden he'll need a pre-oiler and on the output a oil/air filter. Personally I wouldn't convert a working AC system since you can supplement it with a even better York compressor.
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It's an OBA system. Since he's got a Sanden he'll need a pre-oiler and on the output a oil/air filter. Personally I wouldn't convert a working AC system since you can supplement it with a even better York compressor.
well i figured that out - but he said it will deflate and inflate his tires automatically :wall: i think that hummer h1 has it as factory installed - never seen an aftermarket one for a Jeep, that's what i thought he's talking about.
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well i figured that out - but he said it will deflate and inflate his tires automatically :wall: i think that hummer h1 has it as factory installed - never seen an aftermarket one for a Jeep, that's what i thought he's talking about.
I doubt he's running tire inflation system. Those are $$$$ and susceptible ot damage easily since the lines have to run outside the vehicle and to the tire. They do this for desert racing on the Dakar. The tire inflation system on a HMMWV is integrated into the axles which is why the wheel hub usually has that triangular cover.