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General Forums => The Mess Hall => Topic started by: bofer84 on January 02, 2011, 12:47:07 PM
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1995 YJ. This is my 2nd jeep, but first ever "Build". Its primary use will be the trail/around town vehicle/fun extra vehicle. My plan is to eventually build this jeep to handle Moab etc...as thats one of my dreams, but also be able to get me around town if i want etc...
My goal is 35-36" tires, 8.8 rear, SOA, new tranny as well, as the synchros are going out in this ax5.
My questions are the following:
1: Wanting to mat a NP435 up to my 4 squires, i have read the swaps etc...but no one has really said if this would be a good tranny for my application. Im a little worried about the gearing on a 4 cylinder. Are there any other options that wont break the bank?? Keep in mind a used np435 is like 2-300 :) What kind of gearing should my axles have with this type of tranny and 35s?
2: SOA- how much should it cost a shop to install a SOA, NP435 tranny (matted to the NP231 via an adapter) and ford 8.8 rear? I know i would be hitting up Tom Woods as well :) I would do all this myself, but i literally dont have the time, and have very little experience welding (i can do it, but they probably wouldn't be the best welds)
My name is Bo, and im happy to be back into a jeep :) i look forward to contributing as much knowledge as i can to this forum.
Bo
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I've heard the NP435 can be mated to the 2.5L but I'm not sure how. I do know the SM420 and SM465's can though. For 35's you'll want 5.38's or maybe even 5.89's if you aren't going to be going on the highways. Keep in mind that the NP435 as well as the SM's have a granny low so really it's more like having a 3-speed. If you're going to swap the transmission, you might consider going with a Ford Dana 18 as well. You will need new axles t get to 5.38's or lower. Stock axles will limit you to 4.88's. If you want to limit your on road ability then you could go with 4.88's to save a little.
Standard shop rates are something like $60-$90/hr. SOA wouldn't be too bad IF they know what they're doing. If you knew what you're doing, you could have them weld the perches and shock mounts on that that would be it. Transmission would be expensive. I'd say you'd be spending 4-5x as much as you will spend on the parts alone or 1.5-2x if you're buying new parts.
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Doesn't Rubicon Express have a SOA kit? I know several folks swear by their springs for the SOA...
Dave
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http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/kit_b150gm.htm
I don't know of any adapters for the NP435 but the above link is for the GM SM420 and SM465. (they also have the adapter for the 231) Both have deep first gears and can be had for cheap. (less than 200 if you look). All the 4 speed trannys have a 1:1 4th gear so no over drive. So for axle gearing 4.88's and 35 inch tires will put you in the 3000 RPM range for 65 MPH. That is what I would do.
I'd skip the SOA myself. It's a lot of work and you need to address the axle wrap. Just get some good springs and stay spring under. Plus you can do the spring under job yourself and save money. If you want the best springs look at Deaver springs. http://www.deaverspring.com/products/leafsjs.html I am running these and they are wonderful!! Also Alcan can make you some. http://www.alcanspring.com/ . Or if you looking for some more reasonable price springs the RE 4.5 XD is a good way to go.
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Doesn't Rubicon Express have a SOA kit? I know several folks swear by their springs for the SOA...
Dave
Their idea of a kit is a box of parts. You have to weld the perches on and after that it's no different then any other list kit.
I've thought about going with Deaver springs BUT I'm not sure if they will give me the same amount of height. I'm on some saggy stock leafs (SOA) but I like the ride and height. It's probably somewhere between 4.5-5" actually.
Scott, aren't you running SJ leafs though?
If you want to keep your CG low (this is the current trend) you could get away with 3-4" and trim the fenders. Then extend the bumpstop's so the tires aren't eating up the body. You'd probably have 2-3" of up-travel and whatever down.
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The fronts are Deaver H78 or H79 whatever the fronts is on their site. The rears I had Deaver make me a custom set. Before I had the custom set made I ran the H78/H79 setup. Real nice. I stretched the rear 4 inches so I had the custom ones built.
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the reason for going SOA in the front is for clearance. I plan on keeping it SUA in the rear to address the rear axle hop, except i will be adding a ford 8.8 with an 3/4 elliptical :) ill make some retainers so i can lock them when im on the rd.
so you think the gm tranny is the way to go?
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the reason for going SOA in the front is for clearance. I plan on keeping it SUA in the rear to address the rear axle hop, except i will be adding a ford 8.8 with an 3/4 elliptical :) ill make some retainers so i can lock them when im on the rd.
so you think the gm tranny is the way to go?
SOA front SUA rear works well if you take the time. It's what I run.
The SM's seem to be more common and the swap has been done before, many times.
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the reason for going SOA in the front is for clearance. I plan on keeping it SUA in the rear to address the rear axle hop, except i will be adding a ford 8.8 with an 3/4 elliptical :) ill make some retainers so i can lock them when im on the rd.
so you think the gm tranny is the way to go?
Any 4 inch lift with some TJ flares will clear 35's. If not add a 1 inch body lift or shackle lift. You will need to address steering issues with SOA front.
Stay with the traditional leaf springs. Those 3/4 are nice for a trailer queen but for a Jeep that see's a fair amount of road use it's to floppy.
The GM trannys are very plentiful and very strong, and very cheap. The SM465 was in production from the mid 60's - the mid 80's. Plus parts and adapters are avail.
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Any 4 inch lift with some TJ flares will clear 35's. If not add a 1 inch body lift or shackle lift. You will need to address steering issues with SOA front.
Stay with the traditional leaf springs. Those 3/4 are nice for a trailer queen but for a Jeep that see's a fair amount of road use it's to floppy.
The GM trannys are very plentiful and very strong, and very cheap. The SM465 was in production from the mid 60's - the mid 80's. Plus parts and adapters are avail.
Technically, you would need to address the steering even if you had a SUA. It just becomes more apparent as the SOA is usually softer then it's SUA counterpart. The SUA hides it in a sense.
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Any 4 inch lift with some TJ flares will clear 35's. If not add a 1 inch body lift or shackle lift. You will need to address steering issues with SOA front.
Stay with the traditional leaf springs. Those 3/4 are nice for a trailer queen but for a Jeep that see's a fair amount of road use it's to floppy.
I run SOA and 3/4 eliptical in the rear of my YJ with no issues on or off road with it. I did run a heavier up leaf than just a YJ main, so that it would be a little stiffer, I lose a little flex but have no issues with it being floppy or unloading when I don't want it. Of course I'm also running fullsize springs instead of Jeep springs for my SOA too.
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If you go with a GM tranny, the SM465, compared to the SM420, has a gearing gap between 3rd and 4th more similar to the gap between 3rd and 4th on the AX5, this may be important for highway drivability where at least I end up shifting between these two gears on uphills and downhills.
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The SM tranny's have almost the same gearing other than 1st. http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/sm465.htm
I would think that 2nd to 3rd would be an issue to. There is a pretty big gap there. But the SM trannys have a bit lower 2nd gear compaired to the NP435 so taking off in 2nd might be a bit easier with the SM's too. http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/np435.htm
As for steering normally a drop pitman arm will fix most steering issues with SUA front.
Personally I like the idea of KISS when it comes to suspension set ups. Some good quality springs are well worth the money from the start. No matter if you run SOA/SUA or a combo. I have been through 3 sets of springs. If I ponied up and bought the good ones from the start I would have saved a ton of time and money.
Bo: if your plan on doing most of this work yourself and plan on driving it a lot on the street. I say stick with normal type leaf springs. Weather you choose a combo of SUA and SOA. You will spend more time using it and less time trying to figure out what works and what does not.
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Thanks guys. No pics yet, i came straight home from work and started working on it. First thing i did was Seafoam it :) i had a nice smoke show, and it seems to run better now. Next i cut that stupid roll bar pad off....it was old anyway. Today i also ordered a rockhard license plate light from North Ridge :)
I also found out today i have a LSD????? i was doing a U turn and pulled off to the side of the road, popped the clutch a little and left 2 wheel tracks :) I guess i have a LSD with the 2.5??? I would love to look back there and find an 8.8, but i don't think im that lucky :)
Next mods are probably a new sound bar and safari snorkel. I dont have inner fenders and a little worried about getting water in the intake. I live in Central Fl and you never know how deep some of these holes are...they might eat lil blue :)
AS for my lift, im definitely going to do a SUA in the rear (probably a 4.5" ?) and a SOA in front, with a high steer kit :) I only plan on running 35-36" tires and keepin the 4 banger so i think ill survive with the 30 and 8.8 out back.
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I'm at the point of SOA or not also. Currently, I'm running 4" susp lift,
1" shackle lift, 1" body lift, hack and cut home brew flatty front fenders
and TJ fender flares in the rear. I'm running 35x12.5 BFG TA KO's and
love the set up now. I'm geared to 4.88 with stock axles. I love my set
up and was able to do almost all the work myself. Great learning process
along the way.
Here are my stats with a couple pics .....
92YJ/2.5L/5-Speed/D30-35/4.88's/AX5/N231J
TeraFlex High Steer Kit/Solid Front Axle Conversion
Super Coil/Live wires/14" E-Fan/4L TB/19lb Injectors
AA-SYE/CV Rear DS/Tom Woods front Drive Shaft
1" Lift S-Reversal Kit Up Front/1" lift Shackles Rear
4" Rough Country Susp Lift SUA/1" Daystar Body Lift
Home Brew Hack and Cut Flatty Front Fenders
Trimmed TJ front and Rear Fender Flairs/CJ Mirrors
35x12.5x15 BFG TA KO's/15x10 AR Outlaw 1 Wheels
High Lift Jack/D-Rings/9000lb Winch/Tow Hooks
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/Jeep%20Pics/Jeep-Flat-Fender026-1-1.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/johnebquick/Jeep%20Pics/image004-1-2.jpg)
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ok, here are the pictures. Sorry it took so long. I purchase this for 3k out the door. A good Deal?? It has zero rust, everything works great. I need a new soft top (probably a half cab im thining) and i just got done installing new speakers in the roll bar and a new head unit :).
Up next - looking for either a set of Dana 44s front and rear, as i want to start preparing for my swap. I plan to run 35s - 36s. I also wanted to see if yall thought this was a good deal. Its local, dont know anything about them other then the guy wanted to put them under a grand wagoneer. Its a dana 60 rear, and large knuckle 44 front out of a ford truck. Dont know what year, but will this work for a SOA YJ???? i bet i can get them for 400. here is the link.
http://orlando.craigslist.org/pts/2109284399.html
enjoy the pics.
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m497/rlfisher84/photo.jpg)
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I think you will really want to do some more research on axle swaps and what works. Do you want to go full-width or standard width?
The ad doesn't really say much other then D60. They look old since the front has drum brakes.
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i think i want to stay stock width, or a little wider. I only plan on running a max tire size of 35-36s, and a max wheelbase of maybe 1 or 2 inches longer then what its at stock (reverse shackle setup) will dana 44s stand up to abuse with those size tires and lockers? my goal is to build this jeep up over the next 4 years, and for my 30th Birthday go to Moab for 2 weeks and wheel EJS for the first time :) I just want a reliable rig that can hold up with 36s i guess. Any specific axles i should be looking for. Wagoner axles?
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Waggy axles will work fine. Not many tire companies make a 36. There is lots of 35's on the market.
Really the D30 front is pretty good for it's size. Needs deeper gearing though. I ran 35's and 4.88's for years. If your gonna do a tranny swap and loose 5th gear you would be happy with 4.88's and a 4 speed manual IMO. Could save some money by keeping the D30 and ditch the D35 in the trash.
You could do the Ford 8.8 and stay with the same bolt pattern. Plus it saves on labor if you can't do the swap yourself if your only swapping one axle.
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http://ocala.craigslist.org/pts/2158134983.html
What are yalls thoughts on these rear dana 60s? they are all 35 spline, full floaters etc...I dont want to buy an axle, and have it be worthless for me lol.
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http://ocala.craigslist.org/pts/2158134983.html
What are yalls thoughts on these rear dana 60s? they are all 35 spline, full floaters etc...I dont want to buy an axle, and have it be worthless for me lol.
They would work if you want full width axles. You would need to do something with the front to match the 8 lug pattern. With only a 35 inch tire or so they are gonna be a boat anchor! The center section of a D60 is massive and will snag on everything unless you run a tire over 37 inch.
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what about 37s and a 4 banger lol...not sure how that would work??? im assuming i would need some steep gears (which the dana 60 could hold)
Any idea how much it is to narrow the axles?
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i think im going to pick one of these up. any way to know if its straight and true? anything specific to look for, or how much i should pay for one? Guess i need to start looking for a front 60 :) now
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Any idea how much it is to narrow the axles?
i'm going to guess to cut the tubes and reweld them probably at least $500
keep in mind that you'll need shorter axles as well (the axle shafts) or to cut and re-spline the existing ones (apparently it can be done)
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what about 37s and a 4 banger lol...not sure how that would work??? im assuming i would need some steep gears (which the dana 60 could hold)
Any idea how much it is to narrow the axles?
I ran 37 inch MTR's the older style for a couple of years. I don't trailer so it's driven everywhere. It wasn't to bad with 5.38 gears. It could of used some lower gears but all in all not to bad. I would have kept them but the choice of 37 inch tires and 15 inch wheels is pretty slim. So I sold them and bought 35's.
Not sure what labor would be on shortening the housing and shafts. Prolly looking at the 1K range for both.
You would still need to swap out the front axle for gearing and wheel pattern.
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If you go with the D60s I would recommend keeping them full width. This is because you will be able to run huge tires, and being able to do so, you will probably end up doing it. With the huge tires, keeping the Jeep stable becomes an issue and full width axles will help keep the Jeep from flopping.
It's also a good idea to keep things stock to that you can replace broken shafts with something standard instead of the much more expensive custom stuff.
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as always, we start out wanting one thing, and move on to something bigger. Originally i was thinking an 8.8 rear, but now have come across a dana 60 rear im interested in. guy wants 200 for it, says it came out of a 79 F250. It was under his mud truck, but he is switching to a 14 bolt. He just rebuilt it with new bearings and seals, and last he drove the truck, it was just fine. it has been converted to disks, but does not include calipers. What are you thoughts for swinging this thing under my 4 banger 95 yj? hoping to track down a dana 60 front here soon to match :) picking it up this weekend :)
Thoughts?
http://lakeland.craigslist.org/pts/2198604689.html
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as always, we start out wanting one thing, and move on to something bigger. Originally i was thinking an 8.8 rear, but now have come across a dana 60 rear im interested in. guy wants 200 for it, says it came out of a 79 F250. It was under his mud truck, but he is switching to a 14 bolt. He just rebuilt it with new bearings and seals, and last he drove the truck, it was just fine. it has been converted to disks, but does not include calipers. What are you thoughts for swinging this thing under my 4 banger 95 yj? hoping to track down a dana 60 front here soon to match :) picking it up this weekend :)
Thoughts?
http://lakeland.craigslist.org/pts/2198604689.ht
For that price it sounds to good to be true. It would stick out a bit on both sides. Finding a front to match would be a good idea.
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definitely going to find a front 60 to match. he says last time he drove it it did fine, and he has never really had any issues with it. I just dont want to buy it and get screwed and end up with a housing thats bent or something. he said since he was taking the axle out this weekend and putting the 14 bolt in, he would check the spline count for me, (bet its a 30ff) which is fine i think. What are you thoughts guys? it doesn't come with calipers, so how much would that be?
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have a line on some axles but not sure about them. I can get them for 800.00,( hes asking 1k) front LP dana 44, rear dana 60. they are both from a 1975 F250 high boy. the front axle is king pin, closed knuckle though. however they are both built, with 5.38 gears front and rear, detroit in rear, and trutrac in front, spicer forged axles and new seals, new breaks, new drums F/R etc...including new warn lockout hubs. IT is also set up for a yj SOA which is what i want to do. the dana 44 front also has the Large knuckles (they look like basketballs lol) Is this a good swap candidate or should i pass on these? Please help :biggrin:
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well...got some axles today :) was on Pirat and came across a built wagoner dana 44, welded front, warn premium manual hubs, disks, chromolly shafts, HD flat top knuckles complete with DOM tubing high steer, and a built rear 8.8, Detroit locker, and spacers to extend the width and make it a 5x5.5. Both have yukon gears with 4.88s :) Pictures to come shortly.
My only question is, the guy i bought them from had them under an XJ so the front 44 is set up for xj suspension, ie spring buckets etc...the rear of course is SOA. Should only have to move the spring perches a little, and buy a flange to adapt my drive shaft to the 8.8 yoke. For the front, since all the hardware is already on the axle, should i go ahead and convert the front to coil springs ( basically xj front suspension) ???? I originally was planning on going SOA, but if the only fab work i have to have done is a couple buckets welded to the YJ frame, and some links welded up, it might be easier then grinding everything off the front axle. Help lol.
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(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m497/rlfisher84/IMG_0709.jpg)
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m497/rlfisher84/IMG_0708.jpg)
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m497/rlfisher84/IMG_0707-1.jpg)
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forgot to mention, he also threw in a set of 8.8 shafts, 44 shafts (2 have gold joints :doggy:) and another complete extra set of warn premium hubs...I got a heck of a deal i think.
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I wouldn't convert it to coil unless you've got a lot of time and money you want to throw at it. If you're swapping to those axles then you're probably running 35's or larger. In which case you'll want to be running a long arm setup. I'd just cut off the mounts and sell them. Spring perches only cost $30.
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so your saying go SOA then???
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so your saying go SOA then???
Not unless you want to go SOA.
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lol, i would rather have a full coil setup on all 4 corners, wouldnt we all :) SOA i think it is i guess, but if it was the same price, or cheaper to link the front with coils, i would go that route.
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lol, i would rather have a full coil setup on all 4 corners, wouldnt we all :) SOA i think it is i guess, but if it was the same price, or cheaper to link the front with coils, i would go that route.
Honestly, I'd probably go with custom leafs and keep it SUA. No reason to go coils unless you want to do it right and go multi-link and coil-overs.
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I would look for another Waggy front axle, or at least the housing, and swap the knuckles and everything else over to a bare housing. Then sell your XJ44 housing to a jeeper needing those brackets, would be an easy sale I would think.