Topic: Car/Truck DIY in 21st Century

[chrisfranklin]

Was at a certain location in Los Angeles on Monday the 13th where a Lexus-sponsored  dinner and new model unveiling was going on.  The new 450h sedan was being introduced, basically a Lexus "Hybrid" LS 400 Sedan that, instead of using an 8, uses a 6 and electric motor and gets the mileage of a compact sedan.  All fine.

Here's the thing, though:  One of the dealers goes over and pops the hood on one of the 450h so people can walk past and check out the big selling point, the hybrid engine.  I'm looking at the engine, with the hood up, and I see two thick orange apparently electric cables at the top left corner piercing a metal/plastic cover that spans the entire length and width of the engine bay.  All you can see of the engine is, what looks like, the intake runners through an exposed engine section in the middle of the cover.  Talk about an "Iron Curtain."  

You don't see a lot of people doing their own maintenance/repair on high-end sedans.  But, you especially won't with Japanese Hybrids like Lexus.  Furthermore, you won't see your local Amoco service station doing the work either.  Lexus/Toyota and Honda basically have a monopoly on maintenance/repair for their hybrid vehicles (pretty sure their warranty mandates the same). Ford is probably the same with their Escape Hybrid.

Also, Hybrids have been available and on the up and up in the US since 1999.  Japanese companies own most of the patents relating to the technology and US/Europe is having to pay a fair amount of licensing fees per vehicle.  Buy a Ford Excape Hybrid and you are indirectly paying Toyota (whether you know it or not).  Porsche is going to introduce hybrids and licensing fees are going to get kicked back to Toyota and/or Honda for use of their technology.

Needless to say, what does this all look like:

1.  Toyota and Honda dealers and the manufacturers have the wind at their back for at least the next 20 years; going to be an especially  great time to be a Toyota/Honda/Lexus dealer.  Dealers own you for hybrid service & new hybrid markup is  "hy" .  These manufacturers, Toyota/Honda, also own the other manufacturers (domestic, european, asian) with regards to intellectual property, the tech "patents."  And the enviro public and even the state govs are helping things in that direction (green emphasis, reduce foreign oil, Hybrid HOV lanes).  So get yourself a Lexus, Toyota or Honda dealership in Scottsdale and buy and hold on Toyota stock  :roll:

2.  DIY on a hybrid? Not for a while.  (course it was the same with the intro of Emissions controls and ECUs in the 70s and 80s domestically; saw first aftermarket "chip" for a computer-controlled car in 1986)

3.  Probably 10 years before you'll find any good nitty-gritty how-tos for hybrid cars, mods, etc.  

4. Hopefully Jeep will go Diesel or lightweight/composite/aero  rather than pay licensing fees for hybrid tech.  Would be ironic if, when you buy a  Jeep (U.S.), you end up paying licensing fees to Toyota (Japan) through DC (German) :roll:  Both my WW2-era Grandfathers are rolling in graves.

[Chowmaster]

well i think hybrids suck

everything ive read says that to justify the cost you would have to have a lot of commuting to do in traffic.  i dont do traffic, so there.  seriously though i would rather buy a regular 4cyl commuter car that got 25mpg than buy a hybrid for a much higher price.  or a sportbike.  or a diesel. a huge cummins dodge gets 20mpg easy. surely a small diesel could get awesome mileage.
the only hybrid that seemed decent at all was the chevy truck, it think it was only like $2000 more than a regular one, and got slightly better mpg.  but i dont think they even sell them anywhere cept california.

hybrids are a good step but i think other technology will ultimately prevail, such as fuel cells and biodiesel.

i think if you can use a DMM, a schematic, and a flowchart you can fix a hybrid or a anything else.

[jackhammer]

my mom has the toyota sedan and it works pretty good...imagine the amount of money tied up in the conventional combustion engine companies.  when there is that much money involved change takes a long time.  Look at the big three , except for ford, they are doing everything they can to keep us hooked on petro...and that corn crap is garbage..cheaper and a blend but less mpgs = same amount of petro beilng used..the oil men have had us by the gnads for a very long time and it effects just about every thing we puchase...look at the way prices of groceries and everything else jumped during the gas crissis of the 70's.  old money keeps inovation and the evolution of technology stagnant to a certain degree...well anyways I have always been a conspiricy theory kind of guy...look at all the big brother technology that is packaged to seem to make our lives convienient but is ultimatley just used to keep tabs on us...well anyways fellow conspirators unite!!!!!

[shotgun]

Remember when 90% of the US smoked? Now it's only like 10-20%.

[Jeffy]

Well, I don't think hybrids suck but they aren't the end all that some people want you to think they are.

What most are doing now is supplimenting the existing engine to boost mileage and performance.

What the green group wants is an all electric car that has an engine that only charges the batteries.  This means poor performance and a lot of wear on the electronics.

What Toyota is now doing is supplimenting the regular gas engine with a electric motor.  They did this in their Lexus and the Highlander.  If you look at the numbers of the highlander, it has a lot more torque as a hybrid then it ever did with gas alone.  This can give you the torque of a diesel when you need it without limiting your top end.

Will it ever become DIY?  I highly doubt it.  You've got a mess of wires, motors and batteries.  Depending on where they put the motors you could have just one or 4.  One of the things that the green group doesn't see is the long term effect of electric vehicles.  Batteries do wear out.  Battery's carry toxic metals and chemicals inside them.  So what happens in 7-10 years when all these hybrids have to have their batteries changed?

From a cost stand point, hybrids are expensive.  60mpg is not a realistic number for them.  More like high 40's in the city and low 40's on the highways.  This is achievable with diesels rigth now.  Actually, many small diesels that are used in Europe get into the high 50's.  But getting back to cost.  The Prius is expensive.  You're basically getting a low end Corolla that costs $10K more then.  The they really cut some corners in material so they could get the price down.  Seeing that most 10-20 year old 4cylinders can get into the 40's already, I don't see why people are buying them.  (4cyl commuter from the 80's would have to be running really bad to get 20mpg.)

One study, I'd like to see is how many people switched from a car to a bike or Scooters.  Most cruisers will get around 40mph.  Many dual-sorts will get into the 50's and 60's.  Scooters will get anywhere from 70-100mpg.  So if you don't have to commute long or go on the highway's, it would be a good option.  I'm actually considering getting a bike.  If you look back through the archive, I mentioned them.  60mpg, the ability to lane-split or take alternative routes quickly are really big pluses.  Not to mention with a Dual-sport, I'd be able to take it on fire roads and camping, too.

[Chowmaster]

well, i know they dont really suck.  i just think there is gonna have to be alternatives that dont involve gas.  hybrids seem like an expensive way of holding on to gasoline

[Jeffy]

well, i know they dont really suck.  i just think there is gonna have to be alternatives that dont involve gas.  hybrids seem like an expensive way of holding on to gasoline

Holding onto gas?  What do you think they should move to?  The problem is nothing else has a large enough infrastructure to support a mass transition. Funny thing is CA supports Hydrogen power but there is only one station in the whole state.  They showed off their Hydrogen car that was given to them, but I doubt get gets used.

Honestly, I'd like to see a move to more bio/veggie Diesel's and E85.  Then we'll be on a renewable resource and it will give us time to either increase efficency or make a gradule transition.

If you follow the posts in Auto News, there was a posting about BMW reusing exhaust heat to produce steam to run a turbine...  E85 was tanked about along with some other technologies.

[chrisfranklin]

For street transportation, the "Hybrid," regenerative braking, shut-down-at-stoplight, gas/electric setup is efficient.  It will likely be applied to Fuel Cell, Diesel, Enthanol, Nat. gas autos, not just gasoline powered automobiles.  Its electric motors and batteries simply capture energy that would otherwise be lost during normal use of a tradional car, regardless of its combustion powerplant's fuel type.

So you'll probably have fuel cell hybrids, nat. gas hybrids, and maybe diesel hybrids (although the torque characteristics of electric motors are not exactly complimentary to those of diesels, like they are with petrol engines).  Frankly, hybrids are going to be in use most everywhere cars/trucks are in motion, even off-road.  

Yeah, there's not savings now, to speak of.  Its kind of tech for tech's sake.   But,  certain efficiencies will start to occurr, likely when you get 10-20-30-40 % of vehicles using such a setup (greater mass production, greater parts availablity, greater trained service, greater aftermarket will drop per unit cost to that of regular cars; so hybrids and non-hybrids will ultimately cost the same, but the hybrids will just be inherently more efficient).  

Will this growth ever happen?
Keep in mind that in 1993, you had maybe a few hundred thousand folks using the Web across the globe; today its 60% of the US or around 150+  million people in the US alone.  Its good to be Toyota/Honda ... bastards  :roll:

[Chowmaster]

im certain that all vehicles will be using hybrid tech at some point, but it wont be with gasoline.  maybe biodiesel or some other form of renewable fuel.  how bout a hybrid jeep liberty running on biodiesel?

[jcguin]

I just dont see the benefits of the hybrids. Do the math, it makes no sense to get one.  I just did a comparison of a 2006 Toyota Highlander v6 to a hybrid.

v6 gas highlander cost 24,430------------------hybrid 33,635
mpg city 19, hwy 25, avg 22 ---------------city 33, hwy 28, avg 30.5

That is a 9205 dollar difference.  If you were to spend that on gas you would get an average of 81,657 miles of free driving based on 2.48 per gallon.  If you kept that car for say ten years, the hybrid would have to have it's batteries replaced at a cost of around 3500, which would give the gas driver another 31,048 free miles.  

The 3500 estimate is based off a friend of the family who had their batteries replaced on a honda after only 6 years.

How can anyone buy one and think they are doing anything but wasting their money.  I for one, want a dual purpose bike to offset my beloved jeep on nice days that I dont need to carry anything but myself.

By the way, I remember my mom had a diesel vw rabbit back in 81 that got 52mpg on the highway.  What ever happend to them?