Topic: Clutch disengaged by dirt ??

[Eucalypta]

Hello guys, I am somewhat puzzled and curious if any of you experienced the same "problem", if you ever heard of any modification to prevent it and looking for some advice.

Couple of weeks ago I was wheeling with some friend in Furstenau 4x4 park in Germany. (http://www.furstenforest.eu/)
My 4 cyl YJ can cope with the most hurdles there, however this time I got stuck by a puddle of mud. 

The Jeep was half submersed in a mudpool, which I was trying to cross, almost at the end I got stuck and shifted in reverse and 1st several times to see if I could "rock" clear.
Suddenly I lost all traction: engine revved but no wheels spun.
It felt like the clutch was disengaged, however my foot was not on the clutch pedal.

Got pulled out the puddle by a buddy and went to the wash to clean out my bellhousing; it didn't help.
Because it was warm and sunny and did not like to spent the remainder of the day under my car and rather go to the bbq and beer; I called the German motorclub ADAC to haul my car to my home in The Netherlands. (it is all paied for by my insurance)

Last sunday I finaly got time to inspect the clutch. After pulling away the transmission, the clutch disc "fell" to the bottom of the clutch cover.
after removing the clutch cover, it seemed thet the pressure "fingers" were pressed inside and layed "flat" in the clutch cover.
On the outer ring there was ALOT of mud and dirt, pressed between the metal disc and the housing. It seems that dirt was seeping between the metal disc and the housing while I disengaged the clutch, got compressed when I engaged and that over and over again until it was all packed full.

So, back to my questions:
-Did any of you experience the same?
-Is this typical and if so, is there a modification (watertight bellhousing with deaeration by hose?)
-Do you think I'd  let soak the clutch cover and clean it or install a new one; should I replace the clutch disc as well (only 1 yr old)

John

[grumpygy]

Is you inspection cover in place.

[sharpxmen]

Is you inspection cover in place.

x2
all those bits and pieces shouldn't be there if the inspection cover was in place

[neale_rs]

In general it is not good to get it wet because it will slip just like brakes.  Land Rovers come with plugs so you can seal the clutch housing before fording.

[Jeffy]

Judging by all that crap, I'd say there's no inspection plate.

As for the clutch, it might be OK but you're the best judge of that since we can't see it.

[sharpxmen]

Judging by all that crap, I'd say there's no inspection plate.

I agree, there's no way those little branches and stuff would have made it there otherwise.

[dwtaylorpdx]

If the clutch has the external slave cylinder there is supposed to
be a rubber boot around the arm going into the bell housing.

If that boot is damaged or missing all kinds of stuff can go in there..

My 94 you cannot remove the inspection plate its the same footprint
as the bell-housing, you have to pull the tranny to get it off..

And yes I've done the same thing on a Chevrolet Pickup years ago..

Dave

[sharpxmen]

If the clutch has the external slave cylinder there is supposed to
be a rubber boot around the arm going into the bell housing.

If that boot is damaged or missing all kinds of stuff can go in there..

My 94 you cannot remove the inspection plate its the same footprint
as the bell-housing, you have to pull the tranny to get it off..

And yes I've done the same thing on a Chevrolet Pickup years ago..

Dave

Dave, you're wrong on both accounts
 - there is no rubber boot with external slave on the AX5, AX15, NV3550 or NSG370 (i have 2 of them in my garage and one in the Jeep), the clutch slave is bolted to the bellhousing and the pushrod goes inside of it where the fork is contained. Like this


 - you can remove the inspection cover but you need to remove the starter with it, but i guess removing the transmission is one way of doing it

[dwtaylorpdx]

Well,, My inspection cover has holes for the top two bolts of the transmission in it.. Don't know what to say I've had the engine and trans out multiple times... That plate is the same size as the bell housing on my tranny and it doesn't come out without the transmission being out far enough to get the plate past the input shaft..

My slave for the clutch has a rubber plug sort of thing right above the slave, I think its the hole that the earlier internal slave used? no idea,, I know its there, and I know that when it came out the clutch got pumped full of mud.  My clutch slave also has a gap on the sides, its smaller than the hole it goes into. There is a boot around the shaft that covers the shaft seal and it fills the gap ,, I've knocked the darn thing off and lost it down in the bell housing before,, 45 minutes and a bunch of luck with a hooked piece of welding rod to get it back out...

I have a really late 94 YJ, and its got "quirks" I've found quite a few bits that fit later modes (TJ) and some that match older models.. No clue whay.. I've owned it since new...

Cheers
Dave

[Eucalypta]

Hej Guys,
Thanks for all your replies.

I ordered a new clutch set and will install it next weekend.

As I never seen or heard about this problem, nor that I find it normal that all that dirt and stuff can get into my clutch cover, I suspect cover parts could be missing.
I have worked on several 4.0L Wranglers and my own 2.5L ofcourse and all these have an internal slave cilinder. The hydraulic lines go into the bellhousing through a rubber plug. So that opening is closed (not air and water tight but closed enough I guess.)

On the bottom front side of the bell housing, there is a metal  dust plate, bolted with BIG bolts to the cover and a small screw next to the starter.
On the bottom, it has an opening of about 10cm (4") long and 3mm (0,12") wide to the bellhousing. I think that opening has the purpose of letting water out of the bellhousing. Also on the starter side there are small openings along the starter (0,08"). It is safe to say that the dustplate does not hermatically seal off the Bellhousing. The cracks throught which dirt can seep into the bellhousing are on the otherhand too small to let the straw-like pieces pass, but water mud, sand and dust can enter.

On top of the bellhousing there is a wider inspection hole, about 3cm long (1,2") and 1 cm (0.4") wide. It is on the top front side and I use it to look into the bellhousing to position the input shaft when mounting the transmission on the engine.
Because I was deep in the muddy water, I guess it is possible that those larger pieces entered throught that hole.
I have no plug or cover for it; should there be one?
If not: would it be wise to cover that hole with a rubber plug?

Because of the construction with the dustplate, not sealing off the bellhousing on the bottom and the larger inspection opening on top, I think it is not easy to completely seal off the bellhousing and install a (de-)aeration hose (going into the engine bay), there is also the matter of water getting trapped inside the bellhousing when the bottom is completely sealed off and somewhere water is seeping in.

Your thoughts (apart of staying away from water and mudd puddles)?   

[sharpxmen]

Well,, My inspection cover has holes for the top two bolts of the transmission in it.. Don't know what to say I've had the engine and trans out multiple times... That plate is the same size as the bell housing on my tranny and it doesn't come out without the transmission being out far enough to get the plate past the input shaft..

darn, i thought i was really funny...  
you're right about the inspection cover, my bad (i recall the holes for the main bolts) - i guess the name "inspection cover" is a bit of an overstatement - that's really screwy.

EDIT: mine was only on the lower 1/2 but was still going over the main bolts in the bellhousing (the lower ones) so still wouldn't come off. The AX15/NV3550/NSG370 has a full cover  with a center hole for the crank end, so even worse you have to take off the flywheel to remove it.

[dwtaylorpdx]

Wow,, cause I have a AX5,, It seems like I'm always finding weird crap on this thing
late 94 they must have been sweeping the old parts out to the assembly lines...

Now that you mention it I did have the tranny back far enough to remove the
flywheel and the plate came off after..

Was it just 94/95 they switched back to an external slave cylinder??

Cheers
Dave

[sharpxmen]

Wow,, cause I have a AX5,, It seems like I'm always finding weird crap on this thing
late 94 they must have been sweeping the old parts out to the assembly lines...

Now that you mention it I did have the tranny back far enough to remove the
flywheel and the plate came off after..

Was it just 94/95 they switched back to an external slave cylinder??

Cheers
Dave

i think it was '93

i'm trying to think where i have the AX5 inspection cover to take a picture of it
when i made the one for my NSG swap i did it so it comes off after removing the starter, but i had to cut the one that came off the Rubi in 1/2. I still don't get the point of having the thing going all the way around so you can't remove it (or under the main bolts for that matter).

[Eucalypta]

Well the new clutch came in; will put it all back in place and just try to avoid submersing my transmission and bellhousing in water, let alone mud.

Also found water in my transmission, guess it entered through the tower on top of the transmission where my shiftstick goes. The rubber thingy is not as water tight as it seemed; will put some tie-wraps around it.

Mine is from 1994 and has still an internal slave....weird thing is that the only slave that fits is one of a 4.0L: the one of a 2.5L has the hydraulic connections to the wrong side so they wont pass the bellhousing.

Guess every Jeep is different, even comming off the conveyor belt. 

[sharpxmen]

the water goes in thru the seals anyway so a tie-wrap or zip-tie won't fix the problem. I think the best way to go with this is to have the breather connected to one of the accordion boots and have it installed at the same level with the seals, that way when submerged it will compensate for the pressure difference at water depth and keep most of the water out (I doubt it will be 100% but will help for sure) - in that case the zip-ties will help.