Author Topic: Axle or lift + tires first?  (Read 1561 times)

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Offline Elyod

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Axle or lift + tires first?
« on: February 12, 2007, 11:15:58 PM »
I am planning on buying a 4 inch lift and fitting 33's on my tj.  I am faced with the question of what major modification to do first.  I know i will eventually want a larger rear axle when i put a locker in or go to larger tires and I am planning on some regearing.  I am leaning toward just buying a dana 44 rear before i lift my jeep.  Just hoping for some oppinions. Thanks.

chrisfranklin

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Re: Axle or lift + tires first?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2007, 11:51:54 PM »
Personally, I have this theory (which nobody agrees with and which I don't know has any real utility anyway  :gimp:) that if you stick with the Dana 35 on the 4Banger and run bigger tires (33s and a lift) + lockers front and rear,  that you'll have less chance of breaking a rear axle.  This is because, off-road and in low range with front and rear lockers, you'll typically always have traction front and rear.  This traction will correspondingly distribute drive-train stress to the front and back-end, too, and reduce stress on the Dana 35 (typically the "casualty" when running a rear locker only).   Let the smackdown begin :uhoh:

However, bending axle tubes is a different story, so if you got the cash, go ahead and swap to an 8.8, D44.  As for which first,  lift/tires or axle, I'll let the wisemen speak to that. Safe-bet is probably the axle first though, if you know what tire size you want to aim for

Offline jagular7

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Re: Axle or lift + tires first?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2007, 10:24:58 AM »
Here is my take on viable options as I've taken the KICS (Keep It Cheap Stupid) attitude with my TJ.

1. Trialride. Go wheel your TJ. Get to know it and your capabilities. Wheel with others with similar and slightly modified TJs. Learn their approach to obstacles and yours. Note deficiencies of the suspension, tires and axles. Driver's skill is experience learning.

2. Safety, recovery and communication. You'll need first aid kit, fire extinguisher, tow straps, hi-lift, full size spare, frame mounted recovery hooks/hitch frame, CB for communication. Winch if you got the $$. Hi-lift to help use as a winch and to change the tire when necessary.

3. Aggressive tires, lift, axles. These all rub and compliment each other.  I could suggest the axle swap, but a viable option is to keep the D35 and strengthen it with a proper kit for a lesser cost than the axle swap. Cost plays the biggest role here.
In order to take steps, I would suggest a simple 1" body lift, front sway bar disconnects, and 2" coil spacers for the stock springs. This will provide more than enough room for larger tires. However, don't go overly large just yet. This will keep you from spending for gears and lockers and determining if you want to keep the D35. Find some used 31's/32's. You may need to get proper offset rims to clear the tires rather than use stock rims. I beleive 31's are fine, depending of the backspacing of the stock rims.
With the 1" body lift option, you gain the capability of raising the crossmember with a flat belly plate. Introducing this, you may have to do a SYE to eliminate any vibrations.
With a 2" spacer lift, you gain lift. But will have additional cost with new longer travel shocks, front sway bar disconnects, and proper length brake lines. Its not a complete suspension lift system, but still acceptable. This option provides longer travel capabilities than stock. In comparison to a suspension lift, depending on the lift height, most kits provide arms, coils, shocks, pitman arm, track bar brackets for a much larger cost. Once you go this route for some time, you could go with a suspension lift system and sell off your spacer lift and redeem some money.
Front YJ brake lines are 3" longer than a TJ's so that's an easy swap. The rear brake line doesn't need to be swapped as its the length of the rear upper control arm. If you significantly length the arm, you'll need a new brake line.
Shocks are relative. You'll have to pay attention to the collapsed length. You could collapse the shock too much and damage it. On the axles, the bump stops stop the axle from further up travel. Adding bump stop risers and longer bump stops prevents you from collapsing the shock fully. They also help keep the tires off the body.
Control arms and track bars. You could get away with keeping the stock arms and bars with a 2" spacer lift. However, the track bar is what controls the lateral movement of the axle and at ride height, maintains the axle centered under the TJ. When lifting the frame from the axle, the axle is no longer centered. Adjustable track bars are readily available to recenter your axle. To minimize bump steer on the front axle, the track bar angle from its mounting points should be as parallel to the same angle of the drag link (pitman arm to knuckle). The rear track bar is necessary just the same, but its angle is not as critical, but is still related to the suspension geometry. For control arms, you'll want to invest in a complete set of arms that minimize the amount of stress on the mounting points. Heim joints, johnny joints, and arms that twist on themselves provide this to an extent. Try to stay away from arms that are rigid and provide only bushings at the mounts.
4. Other upgrades. Skid plates for the gas tank, bumpers for protection, rock skids for kick panels, lights for night driving, rock lights, etc. etc. etc.
5. Mechanicla maintenance. Maintaining the mechanics of the Jeep becomes more timely with a wheeling Jeep, modified or not.


How I started with KICS:
a 1" body lift, 2" spacers (ACOS front for adjustability), longer shocks, adj. upper rear control arms (to help adj pinion angle), front adj. track bar, adj. lower front control arms, bump stop risers, YJ front brake lines, 4.88s/lockers in D30/D35, 34" LTBs on 15x7 rims (3.75"BS), hitch frame and my old Ramsey winch. Wheeled that way for about a year. I also added in time Currie steering, stabilizer, rear adj track bar. The next year, I replaced the D35 with 8.8 (geared/locked, cost ~$1100) after breaking an axle. Added bumpers front and rear, couple other maintenance items. Next to come will be doubler (SYE), flat belly, rock skids, body protection, gas tank skid, family cage, and maybe seats.

Check out my articulation pics and you can see a little transition on the suspension. KICS
Jagular7
97 SE - Rubbered and locked for fun
94 SE - stock, collecting parts for 37s

Offline oldjeep

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Re: Axle or lift + tires first?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2007, 10:52:04 AM »
I'd start working on an 8.8 or D44.  8.8 is my preference since you wind up with disk brakes.  On a YJ this is a really cheap swap, on a TJ you have the added expense of the fancy coil and control arm brackets.  Couple guys I know have cut the stock brackets off the D35 to save money - in the end wishing that they had just bought brackets.

Unless there's a c-clip eliminator for a D35, there's not much you can do to stop the most common failure which is breaking either the c-clip or the nub on the end of the axle shaft, resulting in an ejected shaft.  A disk brake conversion can help, but doesn't completely solve the problem.

Chuck P
The clowns'? Oh, yeah, the clowns. We fight them too — entire armies, spilling out of Volkswagons. We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending 'em in!
94 YJ - gone
98 ZJ - sons truck
97 TJ - daughters project

www.oldjeep.com

Offline Jeffy

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Re: Axle or lift + tires first?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2007, 12:23:07 PM »
If you're going to stick with the stock 5 on 4.5" bolt pattern even after the lift, I'd do the axle swap now.  If you get a 8.8" you won't have to touch the gears if you get one with 4.10:1.  You can find them with a Eaton Posi also.  Then later on regear lower when you get larger tires.  If you went with a D44, you'll have to regear it form the get go which means you'll want to regear BOTH axles and get 33's or suffer with lower gears and your current tires.

If you search around on some of the big Jeep forums, you might even find take-off axles from a Rubicon for a decent price.  The last pair I saw was $3000 with the pump for the locker.  You can also find people selling their D44's or 8.8's to upgrade even larger.
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My Jeep: http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=2783.0
"If the motor car were invented today, there is absolutely no way that any government in the world would let normal members of the public drive one."

Offline jagular7

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Re: Axle or lift + tires first?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2007, 12:37:07 PM »
From another local forum and wheeler running a D35 in a ZJ:
"The Super 35 kit is basically just bigger axles shafts with more spline count. 30 instead of 27. It is still c-clipped, but with the thicker shaft, it is stronger. They claim up to a 35" tire can be run with it, and I know of people who have done it with no issues. I will not exceed 33's, if I even ever make it that big. My reason is basically just peace of mind at only $169 for the axles and seals."

"I have only seen two D35's break. One was a guy doing some crazy hard wheeling, and the other was Eric while simply driving down a level 1-2 trail. Edited to add: Saw a third one break today (11-18-2006) at KRocks D35 on 33's locked - the trail he broke on was the same one I had been up twice that day.

For me, I wanted some piece of mind at a cheap price. Here is the comparison I went through, Super 35 vs. Ford 8.8 swap. Keep in mind this is from my research and I do not weld.

Super 35
$169 for axle shafts
$549 for selectable locker
$200 for gears
$150 labor for gears and locker
Total is $1068

Strength wise it is 30 spline - 35% stronger than a stock D35 can run up to a 35" tire, still c-clipped, ABS will still work, as well as all other brake components. I know the condition of the axle since it is mine. Petty much everything inside will be replaced with all new components.

Ford 8.8
$400+ for axle with 4.10 gears
$549 for selectable locker
$300 for new MORE or Rubicon Express perch kit (needs to be welded on)
$60 flange adaptor for drive shaft
$60 for axle spacers since the 8.8 is narrower than the D35
$75 most likely will need new brakes and maybe rotors replaced or turned
$200+ for labor to grind off and weld on all new bracketry
$100 labor to install new locker reset ring gear as necessary
$100 to shorten drive shaft as needed. (will not be balanced)
Total is $1844

Strenght wise it is 31 spline, 40% stronger than stock D35, still recommended safe for 35" tires up to 37's. Still c-clipped, ABS will not work anymore, re-work emergency brake stuff to go from two cable system to a single cable setup on Ford axle, Most likely will not know condition of Ford axles and milage on it so it may need new bearings and seals. If so then add some more money onto that total, plus time in doing so. Also will need the axle tubes welded so they do not spinout at some point. (this part is trickier than it sounds since the housing is cast and would require someone that really knew what they were doing when it came to welding, otherwise you risk weakening and cracking the housing) This did not factor in for my desicion, but the 8.8 also has less ground clearance.

For my needs and to get the most bang for my buck the Super 35 made a lot of sense to me. Also if you wanted to get rid of the C-clip issue on the D35 there is a writeup on it online, just do a Google search. It involves doing a little grinding and using full circle clips to keep the axle shaft in place if a break occurred. Not worth it to me. You can also truss the D35 to make it stronger, since another main reason for shaft breakage is not the small tapered end of the D35 shaft but also the tubes flex against the housing, causing undue stress.

Basically I paid $169 to beef up my rearend since I was swithching to different gears and selectable lockers anyway.

$169 vs. over $1100 just for the same purpose as the 8.8

If someone already had the gears they wanted then it would only be $169 for the Super 35 shafts, and then what ever locker they wanted ($549 for the Ected) comes to $718 vs. $1744 for the 8.8

With the 8.8, I know it is stronger becuase of spline count and ring gear size, but my money is hard earned and hard for me to let go of. I do not see myself getting crazy offroad to the point of breaking ring gears, and shafts of 30 spline or bigger. I have done some hard stuff with my heavy ZJ and a stock D35. The Super 35 will only make it better at a much cheaper price.

For anyone interested in any axle upgrade, I would encourage you to do your own research, listen to others thoughts no matter what side they are on, and make the best informed decision for your application and needs."

A D44 or 8.8 is not always the only choice for an axle in a coiled sprung Jeep.
Jagular7
97 SE - Rubbered and locked for fun
94 SE - stock, collecting parts for 37s

Offline oldjeep

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Re: Axle or lift + tires first?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2007, 01:12:30 PM »
If you're paying someone to do all the work, then you're better off finding one that is already done (Or making friends with someone who can weld and set gears;) 

$400 for an 8.8 is nuts, mine cost $89 at the full service junk yard with 4.10 gears.  (For $400 you get the whole explorer)
The ford explorer axle can use the stock d35 e-brake cables. 
The flange adaptor costs $27 from any place that sells spicer parts.
Forget the selectable locker, an aussie locker does a good job for $250 and doesn't require you to reset the gears.


I've personally seen at least a dozen d35's break, and most of them while running 31-33" tires.  If you go ahead with the D35, make sure to truss the housing.  They like to bend into grumpy face shapes.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 01:29:53 PM by oldjeep »
Chuck P
The clowns'? Oh, yeah, the clowns. We fight them too — entire armies, spilling out of Volkswagons. We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending 'em in!
94 YJ - gone
98 ZJ - sons truck
97 TJ - daughters project

www.oldjeep.com

Guardian7

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Re: Axle or lift + tires first?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2007, 01:33:52 AM »
Logic may dictate otherwise but, I have always enjoyed doing my lift first, then tires. Go wheeling until you outgrow the setup or break something then upgrade the weakest link, go wheeling until you find the next weakest link, upgrade, go wheeling, It's a never ending process of Jeeper Evolution which never ends!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 01:38:02 AM by Guardian7 »

chrisfranklin

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Re: Axle or lift + tires first?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2007, 05:20:42 AM »
How I started with KICS:
a 1" body lift, 2" spacers (ACOS front for adjustability), longer shocks, adj. upper rear control arms (to help adj pinion angle), front adj. track bar, adj. lower front control arms, bump stop risers, YJ front brake lines, 4.88s/lockers in D30/D35, 34" LTBs on 15x7 rims (3.75"BS), hitch frame and my old Ramsey winch. Wheeled that way for about a year. I also added in time Currie steering, stabilizer, rear adj track bar. The next year, I replaced the D35 with 8.8 (geared/locked, cost ~$1100) after breaking an axle.

Jagular7, so you had your rear axle break with both the front and rear locked?  Guess this doesn't lend credence to my theory

Offline jagular7

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Re: Axle or lift + tires first?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2007, 07:03:31 AM »
How I started with KICS:
a 1" body lift, 2" spacers (ACOS front for adjustability), longer shocks, adj. upper rear control arms (to help adj pinion angle), front adj. track bar, adj. lower front control arms, bump stop risers, YJ front brake lines, 4.88s/lockers in D30/D35, 34" LTBs on 15x7 rims (3.75"BS), hitch frame and my old Ramsey winch. Wheeled that way for about a year. I also added in time Currie steering, stabilizer, rear adj track bar. The next year, I replaced the D35 with 8.8 (geared/locked, cost ~$1100) after breaking an axle.

Jagular7, so you had your rear axle break with both the front and rear locked?  Guess this doesn't lend credence to my theory

I'll see if I can find the picture, but it broke on the high side with weight off. Was climbing a 'L' step edge with the long edge coming on the passenger side. The higher I got on the rock, the better twist on the rear axle. Once both front tires got to the top of the rock, I turned right. So basically the weight shift to the left rear axle. The right side axle broke. Speculation is that it cracked on something else and finally let go there. And I was crawling!!! with no tire speed or bounce. But the tires did grip and let go couple of times.
I was a little more to the right on that rock face in front of me here. The lockers are Easy Locker in front, Lockright in rear.


I've seen an agressive ZJ driver with a D35/33" MTs tear up a hill and not break. He's open front and rear. Then a XJ with a D35/31" AT's/locked rear try to do the same. He didn't make it first and second try. Third he broke the rear axle.



The other message I produced was from another local Jeep club forum. I only copied what the guy wrote about how he came to the conclusion of his build. The pricing was his findings. Some people can get 'deals' if they know what they are looking for in other people's junk.
Jagular7
97 SE - Rubbered and locked for fun
94 SE - stock, collecting parts for 37s

chrisfranklin

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Re: Axle or lift + tires first?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2007, 06:47:08 PM »
I'll see if I can find the picture, but it broke on the high side with weight off. Was climbing a 'L' step edge with the long edge coming on the passenger side. The higher I got on the rock, the better twist on the rear axle. Once both front tires got to the top of the rock, I turned right. So basically the weight shift to the left rear axle. The right side axle broke. Speculation is that it cracked on something else and finally let go there. And I was crawling!!! with no tire speed or bounce. But the tires did grip and let go couple of times.
I was a little more to the right on that rock face in front of me here. The lockers are Easy Locker in front, Lockright in rear.


I've seen an agressive ZJ driver with a D35/33" MTs tear up a hill and not break. He's open front and rear. Then a XJ with a D35/31" AT's/locked rear try to do the same. He didn't make it first and second try. Third he broke the rear axle.


Jagular7 you are not helping to support my two locker, no-broken stock axles theory, dangit :lol: Sure you weren't maybe in 2WD when the break occurred (or maybe when you suspect the initial crack occurred)?  Even with the weight shift, I'd still figure that with the front axle getting some traction, you'd stay out of trouble in the rear.