Author Topic: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike  (Read 4439 times)

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Offline neale_rs

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2007, 04:02:39 PM »
Jeffy,

What other mods should be done along with the TB swap to get better performance?  Exhaust upgrade or air intake ... both needed?

Thanks
'95 YJ, 33 x 12.5 mud tires, RE 4.5 ED lift, Atlas 4 speed, rear D44, ARBs front and rear, 4.56 gears, 8000# winch

Offline Jeffy

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2007, 05:35:05 PM »
Jeffy,

What other mods should be done along with the TB swap to get better performance?  Exhaust upgrade or air intake ... both needed?

Thanks

Well, the general rule of thumb is to start out back and then up front to balance it.  The engine is just a large pump.

Another issue to consider is the pressure pulse wave.  You don't really hear about it on Jeep forums but it's really important.  The intake and the exhaust need to be a certain length to work properly...
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZNlr60GXH5OlKIFrT7P6mg
My Jeep: http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=2783.0
"If the motor car were invented today, there is absolutely no way that any government in the world would let normal members of the public drive one."

kenandtj

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2007, 08:31:49 AM »
Jeffy,

What other mods should be done along with the TB swap to get better performance?  Exhaust upgrade or air intake ... both needed?

Thanks

Well, the general rule of thumb is to start out back and then up front to balance it.  The engine is just a large pump.

Another issue to consider is the pressure pulse wave.  You don't really hear about it on Jeep forums but it's really important.  The intake and the exhaust need to be a certain length to work properly...




jeffy can you explain further? this is the first for me..pressure pulse? :puzzled:

Offline neale_rs

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2007, 08:54:56 AM »
Thanks Jeffy.  From the discussion it sounds like it should work out for me since my cat  has been removed (legal in my area and the jeep is not my daily driver) and the muffler is a higher flow type than stock, so that should take care of the outflow.  Now just need to match the inflow.  From your description of the benefits in your own case it sounds like they are real benefits, time to swap!

'95 YJ, 33 x 12.5 mud tires, RE 4.5 ED lift, Atlas 4 speed, rear D44, ARBs front and rear, 4.56 gears, 8000# winch

Offline Jeffy

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2007, 12:30:35 PM »
jeffy can you explain further? this is the first for me..pressure pulse? :puzzled:

OK, I guess I'll address this here in general terms so bare with me.  Your engine is a air pump.  Actually make that four air pumps (#1-4)  Each pump turns on (Intake) in the order of 1324.  This corresponds to each cylinder in the engine.  When ever one pump turns on it creates a high-pressure wave of air.  Behind that high-pressure wave is also a low pressure wave.  Then the next pump turns on and you get another pulse generated.  Basically, you have created a sign wave.



Keep in mind that each time the pump takes in air, it may not be the wave that is initially started on that cycle but one that has already been created.  Now here comes the confusing part.  The wave goes both ways.  The wave will bounce back as it reaches the pump and travel back out to the end then start again traveling towards the pump again.

Timing of the wave will be dependent on the length of the tube.  Keep in mind that when the pump starts up the wave that arrives at the pump is already in the channel so to speak.  Optimally, you want the wave to arrive at the pump right before.  As the pump starts, the wave will push it's way into the pump.  This helps crap the pump with the most air possible.  Now, if the timing is off, and the high-pressure wave passes the pump the low-pressure wave will arrive at the pump.  The air charge entering the pump won't be as strong as it should and performance will drop.

Now that only covers the intake.  There is still the exhaust.  In simple terms, the same thing happens but in reverse.  Here are the differences though;  As the pump turns on (exhaust) creates a pulse as the exhaust.  So the pulse travels out the exhaust then returns like with the intake.  What you want to happen is the pulse to arrive back at the pump right before the pump creates a new pulse.  The pulse will then pull any remaining air from the pump.

Theres a lot more but it's a start.
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZNlr60GXH5OlKIFrT7P6mg
My Jeep: http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=2783.0
"If the motor car were invented today, there is absolutely no way that any government in the world would let normal members of the public drive one."

kenandtj

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2007, 01:32:57 PM »
holy crap..i guess i never thought of it that way..thanks

Offline Elyod

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2007, 03:24:40 PM »
It is a sort of scientific "forced" intake.  Almost like supercharging but more subtle.

wrangler387

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2007, 03:49:48 PM »
jeffy you may want to also note that the helmz holts resonator (sp??) theory only works for a very small bandwidth (only a couple hundred rpms), and depending on the amount of bounces you have will determine how strong the wave is. Most people don't bother with it, especially OEM producers like our stock intake manifolds. Velocities, volume, and even flow are other things that play bigger impacts. In terms of the exhaust you want to create a suction at the merge collector (as in using the smallest diameter tubing possible to create the highest velocity which will then create the best suction on the other 3 runners as it passes the merge collector). All of these theories are worthless with our jeeps though, they are extremely inefficient as is, so trying to truely engineer something would be pointless. Better off just getting a different motor.

Dare2BSquare

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2007, 01:37:40 PM »
Does the AIS motor housing need a gasket? I have a tb I am going to install and wondered if I need a gasket before I start.

chrisfranklin

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2007, 02:41:09 PM »
I think the only way to properly tune your 2.5L MAP-sensor Jeep YJ/TJ for siginificantly better, normally-aspirated, engine-performance is by taking it to a shop that can analyze and tweak the air fuel ratio, supply the necesary sensor mods, and/or fuel pumps (after you open up the intake and exhaust side of the equation).  See www.TurboCity.com.   

4.0L YJs and TJs at least have chips available that can ride on the ECU; no chips for the 2.5s.  2.4L TJs and 3.8JKs are MAF -- owners are lucky bas#$$ds; I've had a lot easier time tuning a MAF-controlled  vehicle.

Offline Jeffy

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2007, 08:02:45 PM »
Does the AIS motor housing need a gasket? I have a tb I am going to install and wondered if I need a gasket before I start.

Yes, it does have a gasket but if you're careful, you can reuse your old one.

I think the only way to properly tune your 2.5L MAP-sensor Jeep YJ/TJ for siginificantly better, normally-aspirated, engine-performance is by taking it to a shop that can analyze and tweak the air fuel ratio, supply the necesary sensor mods, and/or fuel pumps (after you open up the intake and exhaust side of the equation).  See www.TurboCity.com.   

4.0L YJs and TJs at least have chips available that can ride on the ECU; no chips for the 2.5s.  2.4L TJs and 3.8JKs are MAF -- owners are lucky bas#$$ds; I've had a lot easier time tuning a MAF-controlled  vehicle.

The proper way to tune the engine would be to replace the PCM with completely new computer that allows for laptop tuning.  Forget about dialing sensors and just remap the whole air/fuel curve.

Oh and you can chip a OBD-2 2.5L but not a OBD-1.  Still it's better to get a dyno tune and a remap then to use a generic chip.
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZNlr60GXH5OlKIFrT7P6mg
My Jeep: http://4bangerjp.com/forums/index.php?topic=2783.0
"If the motor car were invented today, there is absolutely no way that any government in the world would let normal members of the public drive one."

Dare2BSquare

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2007, 11:03:18 PM »
Yes, it does have a gasket but if you're careful, you can reuse your old one.

So, what if I'm not careful.   :'(  I already checked a couple of the parts stores, and they do not show a part number. Could I use permatex if I need to?

Oilsmoke

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2007, 09:16:43 AM »
Or an Xacto Knife and a cereal box or a piece of gasket material from the partshouse.

Dare2BSquare

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2007, 07:50:32 PM »
Well, it all came off like a champ. Took about 30 minutes to do the swap, and that was because I took the time to clean the old AIS motor and housing. Took out the restrictors in the air box as well and dropped in a new filter. New plugs, wires, cap and rotor and seafoamed the intake (before I changed everything) Fired right up. Sounds a little "throatier" and I can tell maybe a little difference on the low end. I have only driven about 20 miles since the swap, so the jury's still out. Even if it helps only a little I only paid $40 for the TB.

Oilsmoke

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Re: 4.0 throttle body question..like or dislike
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2007, 09:48:56 PM »
Tell me how was the port match between the TB to TBS to Intake maniflod.
I sure like my smooth tbs & 4.0L TB  great mod with The Banks Header.